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Super Mario General Discussion Thread.

Yeah sorry:

I didn't mean to shit sling at blaze, or datoneweeb, or any similar wikis to this one (recently settled a little on the Character Stats and Profiles wiki), I just worry if it is them from what (admittedly little) I've seen of how they approach scaling and verse structure.
 
It's no problem. I'm just stating my personal opinion on the wikis there's nothing personal against them.

There are some things that I think are worthy of discussion even within the ones I find not as credible
 
This has been some of the most in-depth discussion we have had in a while. Honestly I think several of the arguments for tier 2 seems fine not all of them of course but I think it's possible.
 
Lou_change said:
This has been some of the most in-depth discussion we have had in a while. Honestly I think several of the arguments for tier 2 seems fine not all of them of course but I think it's possible.
Click to expand...
So, who wants to make a CRT going over tier 2 for Mario?
 
Im very unsure and doubt it will pass, but yknow, how can we know that it wont? Either way Im down to discuss it a bit more on discord (zesp) preferably this weekend since Im not loaded with school by then
 
Yeah outside of vsbw uni+ mario is generally well accepted. Its probably just the standards of the site. Unless we try again
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Honestly, not to be that guy, but Low 2-C Base Sonic being accepted before Mario is crazy to me
Click to expand...
In fairness, the character about speed getting there first (no pun intended) through feats and evidence makes sense. Plenty of room for it when speed up to MFTL is the main selling point as opposed to plumber
 
I don't think I agree with Uni+ Base forms personally. That upgrade threads completely slipped under the radar for me. I would've at least let my disagreement be known even if it likely wouldn't have mattered.
 
So in the discord, we talked about the matter, and thought the best start was with the 64 paintings. As a bit of summary:

From the get go, they contain entire structures/natural formations (Whomp's Fortress, Cool Cool Mountain, Tiny-Huge Island), lands (Shifting Sand Land, Lethal Lava Land, Snowman's Land), and even indicate they have some malleability with regard to space and time within the paintings worlds (Wet-Dry World with the water level depending on how high Mario jumps into the painting, and the seeming flow of time changing depending on depending on when you enter Tick Tock Clock, evidently affecting speeds).

Nearly each place/land has their own sentient inhabitants, and a good amount having skies implies that it isn't just some static/artifical construct of Bowser's in some void or vacuum, but an actual world of it's own. We settled/agreed on the fact that they are their own contained 'world's' as a start for the tier 2 CRT.

Anyone else agree, or have input on that being the case?
 
StretchSebe said:
So in the discord, we talked about the matter, and thought the best start was with the 64 paintings. As a bit of summary:

From the get go, they contain entire structures/natural formations (Whomp's Fortress, Cool Cool Mountain, Tiny-Huge Island), lands (Shifting Sand Land, Lethal Lava Land, Snowman's Land), and even indicate they have some malleability with regard to space and time within the paintings worlds (Wet-Dry World with the water level depending on how high Mario jumps into the painting, and the seeming flow of time changing depending on depending on when you enter Tick Tock Clock, evidently affecting speeds).

Nearly each place/land has their own sentient inhabitants, and a good amount having skies implies that it isn't just some static/artifical construct of Bowser's in some void or vacuum, but an actual world of it's own. We settled/agreed on the fact that they are their own contained 'world's' as a start for the tier 2 CRT.

Anyone else agree, or have input on that being the case?
Click to expand...
So far, I agree, but we might need more evidence, and I suggest we get all the other knowledgeable members on the verse to join the server. I've already started working on a draft proposing a 3-A key for Mario's profile here if we don't get a Low 2-C key.
 
Also for 3-A Mario to be active, I wonder if SM64DS is consistent with what toad says, along with the fact universe isnt mentioned once.
 
ZespeonGalaxy said:
Also for 3-A Mario to be active, I wonder if SM64DS is consistent with what toad says, along with the fact universe isnt mentioned once.
Click to expand...
Well, the term "universe" is pretty active in Super Mario Galaxy. And that's not including the Prima Official Game Guide.
 
StretchSebe said:
What is what toad says, and the lack of universe referring to?
Click to expand...
Like, if paintings are outright said to be universes, then sure. In the vid where as mario is in the first floor, talks to toad, which, who also happens to be on the first floor, doesnt mention a universe, just babbles about worlds. And even in the 64DS version Toad doesn't really say anything worthy supporting a universe.



JTGamer96 said:
Well, the term "universe" is pretty active in Super Mario Galaxy. And that's not including the Prima Official Game Guide.
Click to expand...
I remember some of it last time I played Galaxy, though as long as Prima guides arent used since they are not allowed to be sources. Which is why Vsbw Mario isnt uni. Strange but thats gonna change, hopefully!
 
ZespeonGalaxy said:
I remember some of it last time I played Galaxy, though as long as Prima guides arent used since they are not allowed to be sources. Which is why Vsbw Mario isnt uni. Strange but thats gonna change, hopefully!
Click to expand...
Yeah, I mean, Bowser with the Grand Stars was stated to be a universal threat, and the final battle is titled "The Fate of the Universe". So I guess that's something we can use.
 
ZespeonGalaxy said:
Unfortunately the last time i checked, the reason why it wasnt accepted was cause of some “bowser never ended up destroying the universe” and “inconsistency”
Click to expand...
Well, I don't think you need to outright destroy a universe in order to be Universal. Last time I remember, Goku was accepted for being 3-A even though there was no direct implication he could destroy the universe.
 
Really I think emphasis should be put on the fact Bowser creates these lands in both translations, and the fact that would have to include their starry skies.

It at least makes MSS Power Stars viable again and provides more support for Galaxy level.

While I don't think they're being hyperbolic with the statement of bottomless/endless in Shifting Sand Land or the guide (the 64 ones doesn't have issues like the Galaxy one iirc), others passionately disagree so unfortunately we probably won't be able to get Uni Power Stars.
 
ZespeonGalaxy said:
Like, if paintings are outright said to be universes, then sure. In the vid where as mario is in the first floor, talks to toad, which, who also happens to be on the first floor, doesnt mention a universe, just babbles about worlds. And even in the 64DS version Toad doesn't really say anything worthy supporting a universe.
Click to expand...
'World' or 'worlds' is commonly used in place of 'universe' or 'universes' across fiction. A good example is Undertale, which is why the top tiers are Tier 2 even though they call timelines 'worlds' for the most part in that game.
 
JTGamer96 said:
Well, I don't think you need to outright destroy a universe in order to be Universal. Last time I remember, Goku was accepted for being 3-A even though there was no direct implication he could destroy the universe.
Click to expand...
The argument against Universal Grand Stars was that there's no proof the entire universe was affected by the black hole and reset and, again, focusing on specific wording in Japanese to try and say that Bowser just wanted to create a universal army instead of an actual universe.

I do think the Japanese Galaxy translations should be brought back up again. The arguments against them were dumb in my opinion. It requires going against the entire context of the game to presume Bowser wanted to expand his forces even more, despite the fact he's literally already conquered the entire universe by that point why would his main goal be to do what he's already doing?
 
ZespeonGalaxy said:
Unfortunately the last time i checked, the reason why it wasnt accepted was cause of some “bowser never ended up destroying the universe” and “inconsistency”
Click to expand...
Also, this is a good example of a statement only going so far.

It's like how in the Buu Saga of Dragon Ball Z, Buu is said to be a threat to the entire universe. Though this is true, it is specifically because of their ridiculous level of power (relative to both mortals and kai), abilities/hax, and the fact that they can quickly, consistently destroy galaxies. Eventually they could destroy the universe, which is why they are stated to be a threat to it, but they aren't at a level to literally wipe it out in one go, and would take time destroying galaxies one by one.
 
StretchSebe said:
'World' or 'worlds' is commonly used in place of 'universe' or 'universes' across fiction. A good example is Undertale, which is why the top tiers are Tier 2 even though they call timelines 'worlds' for the most part in that game.
Click to expand...
Can someone remind me what tier possessing the concept of time or being the "master" of time and space is?
 
The English equivalent of the "new universe" statement would line up with "witness the creation/birth of my galaxy in the center of the universe"

So the context seems pretty clear to me. His big grand plan was to make a new universe for himself to rule. There's no mention of only creating a galaxy to rule in with Peach in the Japanese text. He talks about the star being the core of his new universe and then proceeds to talk about how he'll have Peach rule over his empire with him and spread his troops across it.

Plus, there's his final words
 
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