Super Mario General Discussion Thread.

[Omnificence]

if it does have validity. Then.

What does everyone else think?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I think that if it were to be made into a CRT it'll go exactly like the Kirby one did. And Kirby is a verse with way more leniency on this site.

With what people have bought for some other characters (Bill Cipher currently and now MLP) I actually think it lays out the arguments fairly well.

But people don't really like the idea of Mario being powerful here so it's almost definitely going to be rejected.

Like, I really don't see a good rebuttal beyond people just simply not liking it. This isn't as vague as other verses with arguments for Tier 1 because we have the comparisons between the kanji used and it's pretty clear, but I know it'll just get "it can mean anything cause Japanese is a fluid language" arguments.

We could try though

 

[StretchSebe]

But people don't really like the idea of Mario being powerful here so it's almost definitely going to be rejected.

Is spongebob treated badly on here? Mario i agree gets it bad but what makes you say sponge gets it rough?

There was a recent Spongebob LS downgrade thread.

Some users wanted to get rid of his Universal LS on the basis of, quite frankly, not understanding a scene where he unravels the universe with a string. The best argument was that the existence erasure and reality warping of the string is considered hax, so it shouldn't count at all. It's been the subject of various threads already, not hard to find the info. The string operates entirely through physical, material means.

Many there were clearly arguing with an agenda considering this, but that said, I thought it was fair to give Spongebob LS feats for his more common keys (4-A to 3-C) besides his 3-A via hax with strings key.

I don't even support Spongebob. Well, I guess I do now if accuracy and better substantiating a stat is considered an 'agenda' on the wiki/forums.

I can only assume it was this perceived 'agenda in favor of Spongebob' that was the reason why one CGM supporting the downgrade in the thread, though helpful in correcting and making sure the math was right, flatly refused evaluating the calculation afterward for use because 'it didn't feel right' (it being a feat and calculation of Spongebob turning the planet upside down to pick up litter).

In another case, a CGM swiftly rejected another LS calculation I did within 6 hours of me posting it to the Evaluations thread with some passive aggression, with a reply that suggested they hadn't even read the blog.

I just don't understand the prevalence of agenda's. Actual agendas; not me trying to find consistent feats for better accuracy in character stats. I've seen it take the form of weaponizing ignorance, and in the case of the CGM interactions, leveraging moderator power to keep characters down. But seriously: Why have and maintain a wiki where people can enjoy how strong characters can be just to gatekeep how strong characters can be? It's just lame.

Anyways, sorry for the long vent. I remembered the potential for a CRT upgrade thread for Mario being discussed, and though I sent Anomalous stuff in dm's, I thought I could send this specific thing I found here detailing feats and evidence of higher tiering across the games. Also the fact that Miyamoto and Aonuma confirmed that every Mario we see is always the same Mario, unlike how Link can be different from game to game in an interview on BOTW.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Like, compare that blog and the statements there with the recent marvel character that's having a proposed Low 1-C revision.

Beyond being flat-out stated to be 5D, the arguments are very similar.

We have a realm that exists beyond dimensions that specifically uses a kanji that would support superiority that Mario can enter in order to use his verse like paper (very ironic given the game). The Void would destroy everything. Seems pretty clear to me.

There's even support from the afterlife in Mario having a few higher-dimensional statements we could use as well.

We also should really get that 2-A/Multi+ thread going. It's been so long and it's been talked about "being in the works" before or certain people were planning to make a thread on it and we still haven't gotten it. Given the recent upgrade threads I've seen, using ad infinitum arguments work, which is pretty much most of what the 2-A arguments are.

 

[StretchSebe]

I think there is plenty there for multiverse stuff at the least. I'm not sure on Anomolous's progress on the 2-A CRT thread yet, but it may be good to at least have another thread to specifically discuss the feats/evidence in the meantime.

 

[Omnificence]

I think that if it were to be made into a CRT it'll go exactly like the Kirby one did. And Kirby is a verse with way more leniency on this site.

With what people have bought for some other characters (Bill Cipher currently and now MLP) I actually think it lays out the arguments fairly well.

But people don't really like the idea of Mario being powerful here so it's almost definitely going to be rejected.

Like, I really don't see a good rebuttal beyond people just simply not liking it. This isn't as vague as other verses with arguments for Tier 1 because we have the comparisons between the kanji used and it's pretty clear, but I know it'll just get "it can mean anything cause Japanese is a fluid language" arguments.

We could try though

It's worth a shot. I mean, we can't keep Mario and the rest of his verse at such a downplayed level on this wiki forever when there's plenty of proof to suggest they deserve a higher. I say we get everyone who's the most knowledgeable on the verse and have some of the best counterarguments for a CRT with this blog.

I've also been thinking of making a CRT proposing a 3-A key and/or tier for the Mario Bros using the Power Stars as evidence for creating worlds and low-balling the universe feat (and I thought of calculating) from Super Mario Galaxy to 3-A since the wiki here doesn't agree that stuff can be Low 2-C since they don't think there seem to be enough evidence to support it. I've already made a calculation (though it's kinda useless) for creating a dimension with a universe here and I'm planning on doing a mass-energy conversion calculation on how much energy it would take to create a universe from nothing (which I found out would be Multi-Galaxy level) to support a 3-B rating for Mario.

 

[Lou_change]

Is anyone here willing to actually show their work?

 

[Omnificence]

Is anyone here willing to actually show their work?

You mean, like...a blog of the proposed changes?

 

[Lou_change]

Like where you got evidence we already deconfirmed them creating the painting world so what other worlds did they possibly create

 

[Omnificence]

Like where you got evidence we already deconfirmed them creating the painting world so what other worlds did they possibly create

Well, I never said we deconfirmed it; I only assumed they didn't have proof of Low 2-C things like that.

 

[Lou_change]

Well, I never said we deconfirmed it; I only assumed they didn't have proof of Low 2-C things like that.

We found out they didn’t actually create the worlds so what do you have

 

[StretchSebe]

Wait I'm confused, what are we talking about specifically

 

[Lou_change]

Wait I'm confused, what are we talking about specifically

You know how I said we are rebuilding the Mario community. Well despite us having an active discussion thread people aren’t really explaining their CRT plans and to a degree I understand finding and compiling evidence takes a lot of time but I think discussion beforehand would be helpful.

 

[StretchSebe]

You know how I said we are rebuilding the Mario community. Well despite us having an active discussion thread people aren’t really explaining their CRT plans and to a degree I understand finding and compiling evidence takes a lot of time but I think discussion beforehand would be helpful.

Ah, ok. I sent those two things (site with feats/evidence of higher tiering and mario always being the same statement) to Anomalous, but I see what you mean. Yeah, that'd probably be better.

 

[Omnificence]

We found out they didn’t actually create the worlds so what do you have

I mean, my proposition was to low-ball everything from the Power Stars to the universe feat in Super Mario Galaxy to 3-A since it didn't seem like they were actual timelines. It was pretty much the reason I made the dimension with a universe calculation.

 

[Lou_change]

In the Japanese version the painting worlds weren’t created with the power stars and the ending black hole is weird

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

So with the crt, I agree and see no issues, even if Im not sure that it can be accepted since vsbw standards or just for some reason a mental gymnastics will have to be made otherwise. The statements of cutout stuff are VERY consistent, the definitions dont really contradict each other, I see no issue or anything else but an agreement.

 

[Lou_change]

Ah, ok. I sent those two things (site with feats/evidence of higher tiering and mario always being the same statement) to Anomalous, but I see what you mean. Yeah, that'd probably be better.

this

 

[Lou_change]

looking at the tier 2 feats listed in order:
Mario didn’t harm either of them directly he used an allergy and bombs. The evil curse that causes Subcon to enter an unnatural state is vague and not even the explicit cause of the unnatural state. Given Mouser’s bombs don’t destroy Subcon destroy in this context likely means ruin.

All events of the game take place in Mushroom World and I don’t think control is referring to space time.

Skipping

No proof of a separate timeline.

Prima is unreliable

Not necessarily a universe based on the evidence and should only be tier 3 because time doesn’t seem effected

Possession is hax and shouldn’t scale

dream stone doesn’t literally contain dreams just their power
I have no doubt the idea of it being a wallpaper is going to be brought up also no space time.

Split means different star spirits

We don’t scale religion and also a very bold claim.

Mario’s Time Machine is not canon to my knowledge

Maybe

maybe

Culex is vague and of questionable reliability

not canon

 

[StretchSebe]

Oh damn this is comprehensive. Hope you don't mind me giving my thoughts on each too:

looking at the tier 2 feats listed in order:
Mario didn’t harm either of them directly he used an allergy and bombs. The evil curse that causes Subcon to enter an unnatural state is vague and not even the explicit cause of the unnatural state. Given Mouser’s bombs don’t destroy Subcon destroy in this context likely means ruin.

Fair enough. That said, Wart still seems responsible for the spell/curse, and on the Mouser bit, it's important Mario that he can still take the damage of Mauser's bombs, and utilize them against Mouser even if they only 'ruin' good dreams. Iirc, dreams being their own world's (in terms of space and time) is a major thing across the Mario games. At least should upgrade his durability.

All events of the game take place in Mushroom World and I don’t think control is referring to space time.

Yeah, looking more into it, most other sources/information simply says it's the mushroom kingdoms, not mushroom worlds. They likely got confused given the conventions of the Mario games always saying 'world x, level y.' Not an excuse, just that given the guide used 'worlds' instead of kingdoms, I can see why they got confused.

Skipping

Ngl, I find the argument of creating spacetime in the painting levels, and invoking Tick Tock Clock compelling. It is evident time and space are not just dependent on something external to the level, but inherent to each. Tick Tock Clock in particular is a great show of this, in which depending on the given time Mario enters, at the least, the non-inhabitant, material aspects of the level move at differing velocities, suggesting at least a change in time.

Another example of spacetime being messed with depending on external factors is how the water level for Wet-Dry world changes entirely depending on how high Mario jumps into the painting. That said, levels being entire universes given how small and local most of them are is a bit dubious.

No proof of a separate timeline.

I think they're making the same argument for Sunshine of creating these pocket dimensions with space and time in them.

If anything, I think the fact that these levels show plenty of celestial bodies (compared to the relative limited pocket dimensions of 64) and space clouds makes for a better tier 2 argument.

Prima is unreliable

No disagreement there.

Not necessarily a universe based on the evidence and should only be tier 3 because time doesn’t seem effected

I think we'd need more to go off of for this one, yeah.

Possession is hax and shouldn’t scale

While it could be hax, the fact that he can embody the concept as an abstract existence is pretty wild. Pretty split on this one.

dream stone doesn’t literally contain dreams just their power
I have no doubt the idea of it being a wallpaper is going to be brought up also no space time.

Agree on the dream stone, and yeah, I think they're just summoning the meteors from space, not creating 'a realm with numerous stars' to do so for this attack.

Split means different star spirits

Not sure what you meant.

We don’t scale religion and also a very bold claim.

Admittedly wild lmao. 'Heavens' is way too vague to use to argue for universe+

Mario’s Time Machine is not canon to my knowledge

Probably. One of the few games that probably isn't part of the 'every Mario is the same Mario.' Like the CDi game Mario, or basically any other non-Nintendo Mario from before they got super protective of the IP.

Maybe

maybe

Sry, maybes for which? Super Paper Mario and Color Splash? I'm just not sure which ones are being said 'maybe' to.

Culex is vague and of questionable reliability

While I don't question the reliability, I do think he may be a bit too vague to meaningfully use (even the Japanese translation only makes things a bit more confusing lol)

not canon

Also not sure what this is in reference to as well.

If it's the Mario party games, I don't think the side games are any less canon, or not canon given how quick and loose the canon is treated with even Miyamoto and Aonuma being quick and loose with just outright saying every Mario depicted was the same Mario. Again, I think it's only non-nintendo depictions that would actually be ruled out of canon, or considered 'different.'

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Btw, the "proof" that the Power Stars didn't create the painting worlds is mostly focusing on the wording used in Japanese.

If you look at the English and Japanese scans back-to-back, the only difference is the use of "world" or sekai being absent. The basis is still the same, however. Bowser is creating a land/country/kingdom of monsters within the paintings.

I do think those CRTs had bad faith arguments behind them. The Japanese and English version are pretty much 1:1 aside from that, and a land or kingdom can still fit within the grander concept of a "world".

If he's creating that land, why are we assuming that the space for it even existed in the first place? These places have land that has starry night skies within them. If Bowser just created the lands of these worlds, the sky would just be pitch black.

It's similar to the Black Jewel feat getting dismissed. Just because one thing described the basement and another thing talked about the whole castle, the whole thing is invalid... despite the basement being part of the castle.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Also, for the Dream Stone stuff, while there is that difference, again, that's taking the translation very literally. "Made up of the power of dreams" can easily be read as it still being made up of dreams. Japanese is a very expressive language that sometimes adds more to a sentence that doesn't translate over into english well.

"The power of dreams" part is being hyper focused on, but it feels like people forgot the "made up of" part in the beginning. In the Japanese version, all they did was emphasize the power of the dreams it's made of. It's showing that those are where it gets it's power from. It's like saying for example, that an atomic bomb is made up of the power of atoms.

Nevermind that it's highly implied the stones have power over the dreams and nightmares themselves and dreams still have an argument for 2-C at least.

 

[Lou_change]

Fair enough. That said, Wart still seems responsible for the spell/curse, and on the Mouser bit, it's important Mario that he can still take the damage of Mauser's bombs, and utilize them against Mouser even if they only 'ruin' good dreams. Iirc, dreams being their own world's (in terms of space and time) is a major thing across the Mario games. At least should upgrade his durability.

The fact it says good dreams, the bombs are called nightmare bombs, and Subcon the dream world that the mouser boss fights take place in isn’t destroy suggests more making them bad dreams by ruining them rather than destroying a universe in my eyes at least.

Ngl, I find the argument of creating spacetime in the painting levels, and invoking Tick Tock Clock compelling. It is evident time and space are not just dependent on something external to the level, but inherent to each. Tick Tock Clock in particular is a great show of this, in which depending on the given time Mario enters, at the least, the non-inhabitant, material aspects of the level move at differing velocities, suggesting at least a change in time.

Another example of spacetime being messed with depending on external factors is how the water level for Wet-Dry world changes entirely depending on how high Mario jumps into the painting. That said, levels being entire universes given how small and local most of them are is a bit dubious.

I just remember it being thrown out but if fox is right it might work

I think they're making the same argument for Sunshine of creating these pocket dimensions with space and time in them.

If anything, I think the fact that these levels show plenty of celestial bodies (compared to the relative limited pocket dimensions of 64) and space clouds makes for a better tier 2 argument.

Maybe

While it could be hax, the fact that he can embody the concept as an abstract existence is pretty wild. Pretty split on this one.

Eh he doesn’t exactly do much besides speed it up and slow it down saying he has control over the entire timeline seems a bold assumption

Not sure what you meant

The Paper Mario world and normal world split yes we know the argument for being the same but I think a combination of the being Paper not really being explained and paper jam made us split them.

Sry, maybes for which? Super Paper Mario and Color Splash? I'm just not sure which ones are being said 'maybe' to.

color splash and party 5 skipped Super Paper Mario because 1 isn’t 2

While I don't question the reliability, I do think he may be a bit too vague to meaningfully use (even the Japanese translation only makes things a bit more confusing lol)

It seems the power of creation refers to the 4 crystals as he summons them directly afterwards

Also not sure what this is in reference to as well

Mario + Rabbids has word of god saying it’s not canon

 

[Omnificence]

Also, for the Dream Stone stuff, while there is that difference, again, that's taking the translation very literally. "Made up of the power of dreams" can easily be read as it still being made up of dreams. Japanese is a very expressive language that sometimes adds more to a sentence that doesn't translate over into english well.

"The power of dreams" part is being hyper focused on, but it feels like people forgot the "made up of" part in the beginning. In the Japanese version, all they did was emphasize the power of the dreams it's made of. It's showing that those are where it gets it's power from. It's like saying for example, that an atomic bomb is made up of the power of atoms.

Nevermind that it's highly implied the stones have power over the dreams and nightmares themselves and dreams still have an argument for 2-C at least.

Speaking of which, I was also planning on making a CRT in an attempt to scale Dreamy Bowser to the Future Dream since that seems to be the only dream that's a universe.

 

[Lou_change]

Speaking of which, I was also planning on making a CRT in an attempt to scale Dreamy Bowser to the Future Dream since that seems to be the only dream that's a universe.

All dreams are universes in Mario

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Future Dream is also an infinite universe according to the Japanese text from Eldstar.

there's a lot that can be done with that one

 

[Omnificence]

All dreams are universes in Mario

Yeah, I found some cosmology blogs from different websites for the Super Mario Bros that go over that. Maybe we could use them in a cosmology blog of our own as evidence for a future CRT as well.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Damn all that and Ganondorf still solos

Been meaning to work on Bowsers intelligence section since extraordinary genius really only applies to his scientific abilities, outside of that the best I've got is average for him in all other areas but above average in combat. Dunno how to word it tho since it seems it could get really clustered.

 

[StretchSebe]

If he's creating that land, why are we assuming that the space for it even existed in the first place? These places have land that has starry night skies within them. If Bowser just created the lands of these worlds, the sky would just be pitch black.

I hadn't even thought of the fact that the worlds/lands/whatevers contain skies, and especially in the case of one's at night contain stars. Good point.

Mario + Rabbids has word of god saying it’s not canon

Fair enough, considering it is a cross over. Are the other crossovers (like Sonic Olympics + Fortune Street) non-canon, or was this just the wrath of god lol

Yeah, I found some cosmology blogs from different websites for the Super Mario Bros that go over that. Maybe we could use them in a cosmology blog of our own as evidence for a future CRT as well.

Good finds too. I'll check them out. There's probably at least some stuff we can use from them.

 

[Omnificence]

Good finds too. I'll check them out. There's probably at least some stuff we can use from them.

Yeah, like I said, I say we combine all of what I found into one blog on this wiki.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I wonder how Blaze feels about the Cutout argument.

From what it sounds like he doesn't seem to like it either since he listed it at the end.

I don't really see the issue myself, though.

It's probably the best Tier 1 argument

 

[Omnificence]

I wonder how Blaze feels about the Cutout argument.

Who's Blaze?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

DatOneWeeb

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Also, I don't find the argument of "it's a hyperspace like in science fiction" all that compelling because it doesn't function at all how hyperspaces work in sci-fi. Mario got there through FTL travel but he never enters a hyperspace throughout the Galaxy games at all. At best I'd say Matter Splatter Galaxy can be proof of 4D and the aspect of another axis existing within the verse, since hyperspace wouldn't be able to exist without that.

Not that I'm saying that Matter Splatter is legit, but that argument is a little weak imo. Also we don't use the prima guide anymore so that's another argument thrown out.

 

[Omnificence]

DatOneWeeb

Why doesn't he like it?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

He didn't really elaborate. He lumped it in with other potential arguments for Tier 1 at the end and said they're either "not used much as arguments" or "their definition of dimensions is wrong" yet the Cutout blog specifically goes into that counterargument and picks it apart so I don't know what the real issue with it is.

 

[Lou_change]

Are the other crossovers (like Sonic Olympics + Fortune Street) non-canon, or was this just the wrath of god lol

Olympics is seemingly off limits I haven’t seen any talk about it tho fortune street is probably fine given Mario Hoops 3-on-3 and sports mix are fine.

 

[StretchSebe]

Who's Blaze?

DatOneWeeb

I don't want to assume or be uncharitable, but is that the guy who has Peppino/Pizza Tower characters at Tier 4 over on The Codex through flagrantly ignoring the devs confirming the tower doesn't physically contain the levels, only portals to said levels, and through ignoring this uses the falsifiable argument that Peppino is destroying a tower containing entire realms with celestial bodies by the end of the game in order to tier him at High 4? I did a lot to support, and get the verse up on the wiki, so I'd think it would be awesome if the verse was tier 4, but the tower just doesn't physically contain the levels

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Codexwiki has Sonic at tier 5 at best. I really wouldnt think theyre credible

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Of the places linked, omniversal is probably the most credible I'd say.

I generally can agree with their placements of characters. Though I'm sure there's probably some exceptions I just haven't seen them