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Sun Wukong Lifting Downgrade / General Upgrade

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LordXcano

LordXcano

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https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterR...wukong_has_a_feat_thats_either_mountain_tier/

https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterR...has_a_feat_thats_either_mountain_tier/d7vl4ws

Everything I'm gonna say is elaborated on in there, partially. Basically, the stars in Journey to the West are much like other mythological stars: tiny. As such the "holding up the galaxy" feat is very questionable, seeing as the interpretation in JttW seems to be that they are people-sized.

However as the thread also states that he lifted a mountain about half the size of the Sun. This would give him a lifting stat that isn't simply "unknown".
 
The Mythological, and Ancient Chinese models of the universe are both infinite in size.

And Chinese Astronomy is quite advanced. Advanced enough to know things such as that the Earth is round and that stars aren't tiny things in a firmament.
 
http://viewofchina.com/ancient-chinese-cosmology/

They discovered that eclipses are caused by the Earth and Moon's shadows back in 2,000 BC

They detected Jupiter's moon Ganymede in 365 BC

They were the first to record the Comet Halley, at 613 BC

https://www.ied.edu.hk/apfslt/v6_issue2/liusc/liusc4.htm

This here describes their cosmological model.

Secondly, the early Chinese and Greeks developed very different models of the universe: the former primarily with a flat earth, round heaven, free heavenly bodies and infinite cosmos, and the latter with a round earth centred by layers of round heavens, bound heavenly bodies and finite cosmos/heavens.

If you don't believe me, here's a quote from an ancient text:

There was something formless and perfect before the universe was born. It is serene. Empty. Solitary. Unchanging. Infinite. Eternally present. It is the mother of the universe. For lack of a better name, I call it the Tao. It flows through all things, inside and outside, and returns to the origin of all things. The Tao is great. The universe is great. Earth is great. Man is great. These are the four great powers. Man follows the earth. Earth follows the universe. The universe follows the Tao. The Tao follows only itself.
Tao Te Ching - Chapter 25
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The Mythological, and Ancient Chinese models of the universe are both infinite in size.
And Chinese Astronomy is quite advanced. Advanced enough to know things such as that the Earth is round and that stars aren't tiny things in a firmament.
Click to expand...
1. The universe being infinite has nothing to do with this.

2. The thread states that Sun Wukong talks to stars and they are people sized. I can ask OP for the quotes if you want. Whether or not the Chinese new the size of stars if the story itself says they are people then that is what they are.
 
More quotes related to the Infinite and Eternal nature of the Tao:

The Master keeps her mind always at one with the Tao; that is what gives her her radiance. The Tao is ungraspable. How can her mind be at one with it? Because she doesn't cling to ideas. The Tao is dark and unfathomable. How can it make her radiant? Because she lets it. Since before time and space were, the Tao is. It is beyond is and is not. How do I know this is true? I look inside myself and see.
Tao Te Ching - Chapter 21
The Tao is infinite, eternal. Why is it eternal? It was never born; thus it can never die. Why is it infinite? It has no desires for itself; thus it is present for all beings. The Master stays behind; that is why she is ahead. She is detached from all things; that is why she is one with them. Because she has let go of herself, she is perfectly fulfilled.
Tao Te Ching - Chapter 7
So The Tao is transcendental beyond everything.

More Quotes:

The 4CE Daoist Liezi uses the word W├║j├¡ þäíµÑÁ (literally "without ridgepole") in his books, to describe the universe.

"Have there always been things?"
―"If once there were no things, how come there are things now? Would you approve if the men who live after us say there are no things now?"
"In that case, do things have no before and after?"
―"The ending and starting of things have no limit from which they began. The start of one is the end of another, the end of one is the start of another. Who knows which came first? But what is outside things, what was before events, I do not know"
"In that case, is everything limited and exhaustible above and below in the eight directions?"
―"I do not know" ...It is Nothing which is limitless, Something which is inexhaustible. How do I know this? [textual lacuna] ... But also there is nothing limitless outside what is limitless, and nothing inexhaustible within what is inexhaustible. There is no limit, but neither is there anything limitless; there is no exhausting, but neither is there anything inexhaustible. That is why I know that they are limitless and inexhaustible, yet do not know where they may be limited and exhaustible". (5, tr. Graham 1980:94-5)
Zhuangzi, another Daoist Writer, also uses the word to describe the universe's nature:

I was astounded by his words, which were limitless as the Milky Way. They were extravagant and remote from human experience. (1, tr. Mair 1994:6)
Who can associate in non-association and cooperate in noncooperation? Who can ascend to heaven and wander in the mists, bounding through infinity, forgetting themselves in life forever and ever without end? (6, tr. Mair 1994:59)

To enter the gate of inexhaustibility And to roam in the fields of infinity. I shall mingle my light with that of the sun and moon, And will become eternal with heaven and earth. (11, tr. Mair 1994:97)
So both the Heavens and the Milky Way are believed to be infinite. Not quite unimpressive.

Sun Wukong was also somewhat of a threat to The Jade Emperor, the ruler of the Universe and disciple / successor of the Three Pure Ones, the primal manifestations of The Tao and creator gods. The Tao generates Taiji (One) which generates Yin-Yang (Two), which generate The Three Pure Ones (Three) which generate everything else. Taiji being "a Chinese cosmological term for the "Supreme Ultimate" state of undifferentiated absolute and infinite potential, the oneness before duality, from which Yin and Yang originate, contrasted with the Wuji (þäíµÑÁ, Without Ultimate)".

And when you become a Buddha you become one with everything, which would include the entire universe, and in Buddhism there are other realms of existence other than Heaven and Earth.
 
The Stars are not human sized, he is fighting Embodiments / Gods of said Stars. Not the same thing. He also lifted a thing of infinite size (Milky Way)
 
Also, Sun Wukong received boosts during the story.

"The ones growing at the front have tiny blossoms and small fruits, and they ripen every three thousand years. Anyone who eats them becomes an Immortal and understands the Way, and his body becomes both light and strong. The twelve hundred in the middle have multiple blossoms and sweet fruits, and ripen every six thousand years; whoever eats them can fly and enjoy eternal youth. The back twelve hundred are streaked with purple and have pale yellow stones. They ripen once every nine thousand years, and anyone who eats them becomes as eternal as Heaven and Earth, as long-lived as the Sun and Moon."

These are the fruits that grow in a garden in Heaven. Wukong ate all of them. He also got boosted by eating Laozi's pills of longevity and The Jade Emperor's royal wine. In this state he single-handedly defeated the entire army of heaven which include 28 Constellation Gods and also lifted The Milky Way. A later attempt to weaken him had him become even stronger, and at this state The Jade Emperor asked The Buddha for help, who promptly defeated Wukong, rendered him weakened again and sealed for 500 years.
 
Also, Buddhism has a Multiverse, and Buddhas are one with everything.

See here, from Chapter 16 of the Lotus Sutra:

" "Suppose a person were to take five hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, a million nayuta (10^60) asamkhya (10^59) major world systems (Universes) and grind them to dust. Then, moving eastward, each time he passes five hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, a million nayuta asamkhya worlds he drops a particle of dust. He continues eastward in this way until he has finished dropping all the particles. Good men, what is your opinion? Can the total number of all these worlds be imagined or calculated?"
The bodhisattva Maitreya and the others said to the Buddha: "World-Honored One, these worlds are immeasurable, boundless—one cannot calculate their number, nor does the mind have the power to encompass them. Even all the voice-hearers and pratyekabuddhas with their wisdom free of outflows could not imagine or understand how many there are. Although we abide in the stage of non-regression, we cannot comprehend such a matter. World-Honored One, these worlds are immeasurable and boundless."
At that time the Buddha said to the multitude of great bodhisattvas: "Good men, now I will state this to you clearly. Suppose all these worlds, whether they received a particle of dust or not, are once more reduced to dust. Let one particle represent one kalpa (''4,320,000,000)
. The time that has passed since I attained buddhahood surpasses this by a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, a million nayuta asamkhya kalpas.
"Ever since then I have been constantly in this saha world, preaching the Law, teaching, and converting. And elsewhere I have led and benefited living beings in hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of nayutas and asamkhyas of lands." "
So, taking I million 10^60 10^59 universes and grinding them into dust? That's 10^125 Universes The Buddha can encompass and / or destroy. Sun Wukong became a Buddha at the end of the story.

In short.... No. Attempts to downgrade Journey to the West and Chinese Myth are foolish and do not remotely stack up against the evidence of them being high level. Sun Wukong needs an upgrade.
 
By the way, Matt, you kind of downplayed the amount of world systems by referring to the Japanese numerical system. The Ancient Indians had a different system which is much longer. The amount of world systems Buddha described is around 10^202,986,585,220,637,305 ,510,651,276,820,480
 
Nothing ridiculous when you stack up numbers multiplicatively. Oh, and the low end comes from a modern day Buddhist dictionary. What do you trust more: ancient scripts or modern day books?
 
Most of them are modern day Chinese and Buddhist numerology which was standardized in the 1600s or so. One koti already is equal to 10^7 and you're telling me that a number that is vastly greater than that is only equal to 10^59? Especially if a nayuta is smaller than it?
 
@Matt: Seeing that the Buddhism is a multiverse, it would make sense that each of those universes would have their own space-time continuums, unless specified otherwise?

You know where I am going with this, right?
 
Well, that is very nice to hear then. If the 2-B Sun Wukong is accepted, it would mean that his speed would likely have to be changed to Immeasurable, correct?
 
Not necessarily, unless such concepts were a part of his mythology.
 
No. The only people who are 2-B would be Buddhas who are Omnipresent by default and the Three Pure Ones which are the supreme gods and are also described as being like that
 
Ever has told me on Skype that Wukong would be infinite in speed (though he didn't really specify which one is applied to), so yeah it's only Infinite and Omnipresent speed it seems.

@Matt: Is that right?
 
Sub-Relativistic for Wukong in Base (Calcing his Somersault feat got me Mach 6600 or something), Infinite for Boosted Wukong and Omnipresent for Buddhahood.
 
"He is also extremely fast, able to travel 108,000 li (21,675 kilometres (13,468 mi)) in one somersault."

21675 kilometres in one somersault?

21675000 meters

Assuming that takes about 1 second, 21675000 m/s which is Mach 63192.419825
 
Much better. Cause i literally cringing and hoping you didn't screw your number up.

Aside that, Sub-Rela Wukong sounds about for me.
 
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