1-A JTTW & Abilities CRT

[Greatsage13th]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I did a while ago.

Can you quote it please? I have very limited available time for this thread.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Can you quote it please? I have very limited available time for this thread.

He did in that very same comment.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. My apologies for the misunderstanding. The quoted post seems a bit short to me though, and also not list any of the arguments for the other side.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Okay. My apologies for the misunderstanding. The quoted post seems a bit short to me though, and also not list any of the arguments for the other side.

There really is nothing special to the arguments, they have not changed since I made this CRT.

As for the listed arguments, the only one is from Pain and I don't remember where it is.

 

[Antvasima]

1. Buddha's are stated to exist in all worlds, each Buddha has their own realm containing infinite other worlds, which would cause recursion.

2. Grains of sand are stated to contain entire worlds, this should apply to the sands in all worlds as it's never specifically stated to only affect a singular world, which would also cause recursion.

3. It's confirmed that even the world where the Main JTTW Story take's place is within a grain of sand, which hint's that the recursion is real.

4. JTTW's showings of larger things fitting into smaller thing's is stated to be modeled after the Mahayana Cosmology, which is recursive.

There really is nothing special to the arguments, they have not changed since I made this CRT.

As for the listed arguments, the only one is from Pain and I don't remember where it is.

Okay.

@Pain_to12

Would you be willing to write a similar summary post for your viewpoints here please?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Okay during the weekend as I will ahve to reread the thread for it.
but I will repost my stance

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Greatsage13th]

It's the weekend

 

[Antvasima]

Okay during the weekend as I will ahve to reread the thread for it.
but I will repost my stance

It's the weekend

@Pain_to12

 

[PrinceofPein]

I will get to it in a few hours and try and make it as short as possible

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I read through the thread, and there is a major issue that I am just noticing.
Majority of the scans here have no contexts and they are usually 1 line or 3 lines

Can someone do something to fix that? Like send the scans with the whole contexts

 

[Greatsage13th]

I read through the thread, and there is a major issue that I am just noticing.
Majority of the scans here have no contexts and they are usually 1 line or 3 lines

Can someone do something to fix that? Like send the scans with the whole contexts

@ActuallySpaceMan that's your que

 

[Greatsage13th]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I read through the thread, and there is a major issue that I am just noticing.
Majority of the scans here have no contexts and they are usually 1 line or 3 lines

Can someone do something to fix that? Like send the scans with the whole contexts

@ActuallySpaceMan

 

[Greatsage13th]

Bump

 

[Greatsage13th]

Bumo

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

I can't believe we have 1-A monkey here....
I agree and looking at it, actuallyspaceman argument hold more logic.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I read through the thread, and there is a major issue that I am just noticing.
Majority of the scans here have no contexts and they are usually 1 line or 3 lines

Can someone do something to fix that? Like send the scans with the whole contexts

@ActuallySpaceMan and other members here.

We still need some help with this.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Is there is a slower thread on VSBW?
I think this is a new world record, genuinely

 

[Greatsage13th]

Is there is a slower thread on VSBW?
I think this is a new world record, genuinely

Oof

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I cannot do anything without collaboration from other members.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Bump

 

[PrinceofPein]

No need to bump this thread unnecessarily, if you won't help fix what was asked

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, unless @ActuallySpaceMan wants to help out, it seems like nothing will happen here.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Here you go; 1, 2, 3, 4

 

[Antvasima]

Here you go; 1, 2, 3, 4

Thank you.

@Pain_to12

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

Bump

 

[PrinceofPein]

Thank you.

@Pain_to12

Aiit, I will look into them soon

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[PrinceofPein]

So, I am going to write out the scans that are supposed to prove the infinite recursions, word for word.
1.

The Phoenix-immortal prefecture offends Heaven and suffers drought
The Great sage sun advocates virtue and provides rain


The great way's hidden and deep--
How it waxes and wanes
Once told, will astonish both gods and spirits
Enfolding the universe
Cutting through the one's native light,
It grants the world true, matchless bliss,
Before the Spirit Vulture peak,
The treasure pearl when take out
will blaze forth five kinds of radiance
To illuminate all life in the cosmos;
Those who know live long as mountains and seas

2.

The Image of true chan's no common view:
The great way causes the cosmos imbue
In power Gold and wood fill the dharma sphere
Tossing spatila and ubiquity cohere
At all times divine arms can their might lay bare
Elixir vessels are honored everywhere
Though India's are lofty, one must nature coerce
Jade-Flower Princes all to teh Mean reverses

3.

Both Mind and Buddha are important things
If you perceive there is neither mind nor thing
Yours is the dharmakiya of true mind
The dharmakiya
Has no shape or form
One pearl like radiance holding myraid things
The bodiless body is the body true
And real form is that form which has no form
There is no form, no void, no no-emptiness
No coming, No leaving, no parindmana
NO contrast, no sameness, no being or nonbeing
No giving, no taking, no hopeful craving
Light effacious is in and out the same
Buddha's whole realm is in a grain of sand
A grain of sand the chiliocosm holds;
One mind or body's like ten thousand things
To know this you must grasp the No-mind spell
Unclogged and taintless is the karma pure
Don't do many acts of good or ill
This true submission to sakyamuni

4.

I wishto submit to the Buddha of Great perfect light
........... (all in all there were 19 buddhas, can't type all)
Such are there various Buddhas in all the worlds

I wish to use these merits
To adorn Buddha's pure land
To repay fourfold grace above
And save those on three paths below
If there are those who see and hear,
Their minds will find enlightment
Their births with us in paradise
Will be this body's recompense
All the Buddhas of past, present and future in all the world,
The various Honoured Bodhisattvas and Mahasattvas
Maha-prajna-paramital

And here is the OP argument

So what is the point I'm getting at? Simply put the worlds that exist within grains of sand should in turn also have worlds within them, leading to a recursion effect.
I have three reasons for my logic that I'll just briefly summarize.

1. Firstly Chilicosm & Buddha-Realm's statement says "A grain of sand", not a grain of sand in this world, just a grain of sand. It's a very broad statement referring to every grain of sand pretty clearly. On top of that, it states clearly that a Buddha's entire realm exists within a grain of sand. That would also have to include the one in the Main JTTW World.

2. It's also stated that Buddhas exist in every world. That would have to include the lower worlds as well, in which the Buddhas within those lower worlds would also have their own realms.

3. If the Great Way scans do indeed mean it's responsible for these recursions of larger things such as Worlds, Buddha-Realms, Mountains, and Oceans being within smaller things, then why would it not affect the lower worlds within the Universe it already encompasses?

Now the questions, where does it say anything about infinte recursion, your third point is a large assumption and leap in logic.
There are 19 Buddhas in the world, if we are to say each Buddha realm is a grain of sand, that is 19 grains of sand. Not the way you make it look without the full scans contexts.
So where exactly does any of these scans point to your arguement that "Each of the 19 grain of sands also contain another world that contains 19 grains of sand and this continues infintely"
Like where exactly? cause nothing here proves anything remotely close to 1-A
And I don't want to be nitpicking but "The Buddha's realm is in a grain of sand" is actually very iffy and not a generic statement but about a spell

 

[Greatsage13th]

Now the questions, where does it say anything about infinte recursion, your third point is a large assumption and leap in logic.
There are 19 Buddhas in the world, if we are to say each Buddha realm is a grain of sand, that is 19 grains of sand. Not the way you make it look without the full scans contexts.
So where exactly does any of these scans point to your arguement that "Each of the 19 grain of sands also contain another world that contains 19 grains of sand and this continues infintely"
Like where exactly? cause nothing here proves anything remotely close.
And I don't want to be nitpicking but "The Buddha's realm is in a grain of sand" is actually very iffy and not a generic statement but about a spell

Seems like a you problem if you can't connect the dots yourself

 

[PrinceofPein]

Seems like a you problem if you can't connect the dots yourself

I don't need comments from someone who never adds anything meaningful to the thread.
Why would I need to connect the dots?
I am not the OP, he makes a claim, it is up to him to prove his points not me
Someone says 1+1 is 3, but it is my problem for not connecting the dot, please don't comment and watch, if you have nothing constructive to say or you cannot answer my question.
You can actually help us connect the dot, can you not?

 

[Greatsage13th]

I don't need comments from someone who never adds anything meaningful to the thread.
Why would I need to connect the dots?
I am not the OP, he makes a claim, it is up to him to prove his points not me
Someone says 1+1 is 3, but it is my problem for not connecting the dot, please don't comment and watch, if you have nothing constructive to say or you cannot answer my question.
You can actually help us connect the dot, can you not?

You do realize that you could've just looked at the dharma section of the journey to the west cosmology page and find out that it mentioned that there is not a space so tiny that it does not permeate. Which basically answers your very simple question of why there is a possibility of infinite recursion because the thing responsible for the single recursion permeates in the other recursion creating another recursion from there and then another. So here you go. I've proven to you why 1+1 is 2 instead of your initial 3

 

[PrinceofPein]

You do realize that you could've just looked at the dharma section of the journey to the west cosmology page and find out that it mentioned that there is not a space so tiny that it does not permeate. Which basically answers your very simple question of why there is a possibility of infinite recursion because the thing responsible for the single recursion permeates in the other recursion creating another recursion from there and then another. So here you go. I've proven to you why 1+1 is 2 instead of your initial 3

First of all, why would I go through something that it is not added to the prove of the section I have problem with in the OP, about a verse that I don't really care about in a thread that I am just called to evaluate.

Edit: Just checked the section, it is talking about how Dharma fills the whole world and it is in every tiny space, how tf does this mean infinite recursions? or points towards a possibility of it?

Secondly, Do you know the meaning of Permeate? you should check your dictionary.
Thirdly, Nothing in the OP even points to a possibility of infinite recursions, even adding the incoherent explanation you just added, literally does not correlate with infinite recursions.
Lastly, I really don't care about possibility, do you have proof that says this is this and that is that, not this may be this and that may be that? Obviously not.
So why don't you let @ActuallySpaceMan the guy with the knowledge reply me. Thanks.
This is not too hard, I really cannot see what they are claiming is an infinite recursion, @Antvasima if possible, call in more staff members to evaluate this

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Pain_to12.

Are there any other staff or knowledgeable members who have helped out in this thread previously that you would recommend me to call for here?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Thank you for helping out, Pain_to12.

Are there any other staff or knowledgeable members who have helped out in this thread previously that you would recommend me to call for here?

Everything12, Qawdsef, Planck, Dereck03 and Elizhaa

 

[Greatsage13th]

First of all, why would I go through something that it is not added to the prove of the section I have problem with in the OP, about a verse that I don't really care about in a thread that I am just called to evaluate.

that's because it was already accepted before the crt hence viable supporting information to use

Secondly, Do you know the meaning of Permeate? you should check your dictionary.

spreads in every space no longer how tiny it is, is exactly that. why do you seem bothered by it?

Thirdly, Nothing in the OP even points to a possibility of infinite recursions, even adding the incoherent explanation you just added, literally does not correlate with infinite recursions.

That's on you if you hadn't empty your cup earlier so that you could have filled it with the new.

Lastly, I really don't care about possibility, do you have proof that says this is this and that is that, not this may be this and that may be that? Obviously not.
So why don't you let @ActuallySpaceMan the guy with the knowledge reply me. Thanks.
This is not too hard, I really cannot see what they are claiming is an infinite recursion, @Antvasima if possible, call in more staff members to evaluate this

then just use possibly. we had done this with undertale beforehand for its far vaguer 2B rating so we could actually do the same for JTTW. so i don't see why you're making a simple solution so complex.