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Here it is, the long awaited Part 2.
I have an insane amount to say still. Too much to fit in one CRT. Therefore, I will not put any sort of "limit" on how many parts there will be. Instead, I will be making as many as needed to establish the scaling of each tier proposed in the previous part, which was focused primarily on an overview of what the changes will be for specific parts of the cosmology.
One of the most imminient changes that I feel should apply for some of the god-tiers of the Legends cosmology, though, is Beyond Shadows, an astral realm in The Force itself which has blatant qualitative superiority over the rest of the cosmology with the exception of The Force itself. Additionally, beings within Beyond Shadows exceed physical composition entirely, as the very process of mind-walking is separating one's "mind" from physical reality/composition completely. This is supported by Abeloth's true form not being bound by any concrete physical shape, either. Finally, those within Beyond Shadows are capable of ascending to their only "real" essence, beyond that of their ontological essence in the illusory physical world, that being their form in the "divine glow of the force", which is all that truly exists of the individual. This will be justified throughout this specific CRT.
Since the previous blog already was approved by 3 staff members, and most people in the previous part seemed to approve of 1-A Beyond Shadows, this blog particularly focuses on who would scale to this aspect of the cosmology. Please note that this is pretty heavily rushed due to personal stuff irl, and was initially going to be much longer. This is a summarized version of who particularly scales to the 1-A aspect of the verse. I do not have enough time on my hands to extremely in-detail explain the cosmology.
Therefore, I am hoping that other people in this blog could help contribute to providing some of these scans, sources, and justifications later on. Hopefully I'll be able to edit this post later on to expand upon it in the way I hoped. I really, really just wanted to get this out.
Qualifications for 1-A qualitative superiority are:
Beyond Shadows is a realm that can only be achieved through a purely metaphysical process; known as "Mind-Walking". Mind-Walking involves separating the "mind" from the physical, allowing it to become one with the "true" essence of themselves in "the divine glow" of The Force, the only thing that truly exists in Beyond Shadows. Essentially, the process of Mind-Walking itself is likely 1-A, as it involves complete and total separation from all physical composition. This applies to time as well, as the distinction between minutes, hours, or even years do not exist in Beyond Shadows, nor does time, as it is an illusion. This, by default, would qualify as a qualitative transcendence, as the processes of higher-order travel, such as through Hyperspace, is an explicitly physical phenomenon related to spatiality, and Hyperspace travel is obviously not capable of reaching into Beyond Shadows.
In short, Beyond Shadows' level of existence can only be achieved through a transcendence of physical composition entirely, and as a result entering into a purely metaphysical state beyond the "illusory world" beneath it, that being all physical composition of both time and space.
As was explained above, Beyond Shadows is inherently a greater "mode" of existence. It may not appear at first glance that Beyond Shadows represents a "discrete jump from everything that came before". However, the context of these statements would reasonably suggest as much:
Take note of what I highlighted, and especially what I underlined and highlighted. Only the force is real. No Hyperspace, no Otherspace, no anyone or anything besides The Force. The Force is all that is truly real in Beyond Shadows. With how explained above that Beyond Shadows inherently exceeds physical composition (as is supported here through the usage of the word weightless), this would mean that it exceeds physical composition in a sense that everything that is not The Force, whether it be Hyperspace, Otherspace, or any other higher-dimensional or lower-dimensional realm or plane of existence, are all just as insignificant and illusory as Ben is in this situation. Hence, it is thus qualitatively beyond physical composition, instead being superior only via it's "real" reality, that being The Force. This would not just include the already 7-D cosmology established above, but any and all extensions of it, which of course would not be The Force, and therefore would also be just as illusory as anything else is in Beyond Shadows.
In either case, we can already establish the fact that this includes all possible and theoretical realms. Barriss Offee, upon achieving a form of Oneness with The Force, was able to sense beyond the dimensions of Realspace, seeing that each and every universe and dimension were all of an "entire piece", connected through vibrating strands of the force utterly beyond the ken of her senses (which were already 5-D at this point in time), worlds without end. This should likely qualify for at minimum 1-B, if not Low 1-A. Yet all of these "worlds without end" are only connected through The Force, and therefore fundamentally distinct from The Force itself. By extension, all of these "worlds without end" would all be a part of the illusory world qualitatively inferior to the "real" one in Beyond Shadows.
Therefore, due to the fact that only the Force is real in Beyond Shadows and everything else is illusory, it represents a discrete jump from everything else, as the criteria requires.
Finally, for this, Beyond Shadows is quite clearly ontologically differentiated from the illusory world beneath it. Physical composition does not exist, instead only "equivalents" of it, the distinction between measurements in time, like seconds, days, or hours, do not exist nor does time itself, and the position of a being in physical and temporal space is made fundamentally distinct from their position in Beyond Shadows unless they choose it to be so. Additionally, all of these ontological differences, as I've described, are attributed to the fact that space-time, and all physical and temporal composition, are illusory and do not exist in Beyond Shadows.
In short, Beyond Shadows qualifies for all of the fundamental criteria for 1-A qualitative superiority
With that out of the way, let's get into who would scale to Beyond Shadows and thus 1-A.
Admittedly, I cannot find solid statements/scans at the moment for my reasoning below, but Wookieepedia should very much be a reliable source which even has sourcing guidelines. Of course, we can't use these in the profile itself, but hopefully someone in this thread later on can find the actual scans so we can source them for the profiles. They, have however, linked a source, that being Fate of The Jedi: Apocalypse. I don't have money to get an E-book, nor can I find it anywhere irl (I've tried), and I can't even find a pirated PDF of it either, legit ones at least. But due to Wookieepedia being organized and managed the way it is, I have no reason to not believe these claims.
Anywho:
This 1-A rating is due to the fact that they are entities native to The Force itself, and their dimension is situated beyond the reach of all mortal understanding as are themselves. They can take any physical form, but none reflect their true nature, again, beyond the comprehension of mortals. This should include Force Users as well, as is explained in TCW S3 E15; "Overlords". Therefore, they also are inherently beyond physical composition in their true forms, but because their dimensions are native to the force itself, and also because the force itself is under their dominion (which is why The Son, The Daughter, and the Father all represent different attributes of The Force as is perceived by mortals), they would logically be amongst the "true" reality that is described in Beyond Shadows, which, FRA, is a 1-A realm qualitatively superior to physical composition completely. As Celestials themselves have similar manners of explanation regarding their true forms being beyond their physical shape, whether it be as The Ones or as The Architects, they would likely stand superior to physical composition as well.
These "true selves" within Beyond Shadows' 1-A reality are even directly described in Fate of the Jedi again for all beings, which logically includes The Ones on Mortis, meaning that the Celestials would likely represent the following:
As is described here, the only "real" existence beyond the illusory world is within "the divine glow of the Force itself". That being, the realm in which Celestials reside in and have under their dominion. Their "dominion", then, is thus that aforementioned a part of that only "real" existence beyond the illusory world of physical composition. Therefore, Celestials also stand qualitatively above the "illusion" of physical matter as is attributed to Beyond Shadows, and exist amongst Beyond Shadows' "true" reality. Very straight forward 1-A reasoning.
Naturally, this would also grant Type 9 immortality for The Ones, beyond their already Type 1, 3, and 8, due to the fact that The Ones are simply physical manifestations of Celestials, and also that other physical manifestations of the Celestials, in particular as "Architects", were able to simply retreat back into their incomprehensible dimension beyond the perception of Rakata and others, upon "disappearing". Presumably also a Type 10 Large Size ability for their Celestial key.
Oh and yeah, if it wasn't obvious enough, all of the Mortis profiles (The Father, Son, and Daughter) will be separated into different keys. My sandbox profiles display what it would look like.
However, much like The Ones and their Celestial keys, Abeloth's "true form" resides at a 1-A essence. This is quite simple to prove. Abeloth's true form is situated in Beyond Shadows, and is only capable of being seen through entering Beyond Shadows via the usage of Mind-Walking. This would also further validate The Ones as Celestials being 1-A, as Abeloth's true form is directly on par with them.
As for Luke, this is quite easy to validate as well. In Beyond Shadows, Luke and Abeloth fought in their "true" essences in The Force, ones beyond the illusory physical world, and thus fought in their 1-A essences. At minimum, this should qualify for a "1-A while in Beyond Shadows" or "1-A via mind-walking" change in his profile, since those proceses are capable of allowing him to mege with his 1-A essence in the Force while in Beyond Shadows. Finally, Luke also eventually defeated Abeloth's true form in Beyond Shadows. Easy enough 1-A justification.
TL;DR: Luke and Abeloth can merge their essence with Beyond Shadows and affect it significantly in their final battle. Luke is the only one capable of harming Abeloth (outside of Darth Krayt if you don't consider that an outlier for Krayt/anti-feat for Abeloth). Abeloth's dimension, which she herself sustains, also resides in Beyond Shadows qualitatively beyond physical composition, and her essence is on par with it's existence.
Again, I cannot find actual scans which describe this, however I have no reason to doubt Wookieepedia as a source on this matter, especially since they cite each of their narrative summary paragraphs, which show where the sources are. If someone can somehow find a PDF or has a digital book of the Fate of the Jedi series which can concretely validate these explanations, we'll be home free.
Agree:
Disagree:
I have an insane amount to say still. Too much to fit in one CRT. Therefore, I will not put any sort of "limit" on how many parts there will be. Instead, I will be making as many as needed to establish the scaling of each tier proposed in the previous part, which was focused primarily on an overview of what the changes will be for specific parts of the cosmology.
One of the most imminient changes that I feel should apply for some of the god-tiers of the Legends cosmology, though, is Beyond Shadows, an astral realm in The Force itself which has blatant qualitative superiority over the rest of the cosmology with the exception of The Force itself. Additionally, beings within Beyond Shadows exceed physical composition entirely, as the very process of mind-walking is separating one's "mind" from physical reality/composition completely. This is supported by Abeloth's true form not being bound by any concrete physical shape, either. Finally, those within Beyond Shadows are capable of ascending to their only "real" essence, beyond that of their ontological essence in the illusory physical world, that being their form in the "divine glow of the force", which is all that truly exists of the individual. This will be justified throughout this specific CRT.
Since the previous blog already was approved by 3 staff members, and most people in the previous part seemed to approve of 1-A Beyond Shadows, this blog particularly focuses on who would scale to this aspect of the cosmology. Please note that this is pretty heavily rushed due to personal stuff irl, and was initially going to be much longer. This is a summarized version of who particularly scales to the 1-A aspect of the verse. I do not have enough time on my hands to extremely in-detail explain the cosmology.
Therefore, I am hoping that other people in this blog could help contribute to providing some of these scans, sources, and justifications later on. Hopefully I'll be able to edit this post later on to expand upon it in the way I hoped. I really, really just wanted to get this out.
Scaling Explanations/Justifications
1-A Beyond Shadows
This was already explained and from what I’m aware of, nearly unanimously agreed upon in the part before this, but I will explain it in a bit more detail in order to justify the rating further.Qualifications for 1-A qualitative superiority are:
- To put it simply: It is superiority over lesser things that involves no element of quantity, or amount, in any manner whatsoever. It, instead, hinges entirely on the nature of the character's existence and ontology. In general, all characters with such superiority over lesser things are 1-A.
- A character that holds a qualitative superiority over lesser things, however, represents a full discrete jump from everything that came before. They reside in a greater mode of existence entirely, being irreducible to anything that lies in the lower state of existence.
- This inaccessibility possessed by qualitatively superior characters and realms can also be expressed in terms of sheer ontology, generally speaking. That is to say: They are fundamentally different from the nature of the lower reality, and this different nature is precisely the source of their superiority over it. Since their "otherness" is identical to their transcendence, no expansion or extension of the lower reality and anything in it can possibly attain to them, as long as it maintains its particular nature. Put it simply: They are as powerful as they are alien.
Beyond Shadows is a realm that can only be achieved through a purely metaphysical process; known as "Mind-Walking". Mind-Walking involves separating the "mind" from the physical, allowing it to become one with the "true" essence of themselves in "the divine glow" of The Force, the only thing that truly exists in Beyond Shadows. Essentially, the process of Mind-Walking itself is likely 1-A, as it involves complete and total separation from all physical composition. This applies to time as well, as the distinction between minutes, hours, or even years do not exist in Beyond Shadows, nor does time, as it is an illusion. This, by default, would qualify as a qualitative transcendence, as the processes of higher-order travel, such as through Hyperspace, is an explicitly physical phenomenon related to spatiality, and Hyperspace travel is obviously not capable of reaching into Beyond Shadows.
In short, Beyond Shadows' level of existence can only be achieved through a transcendence of physical composition entirely, and as a result entering into a purely metaphysical state beyond the "illusory world" beneath it, that being all physical composition of both time and space.
As was explained above, Beyond Shadows is inherently a greater "mode" of existence. It may not appear at first glance that Beyond Shadows represents a "discrete jump from everything that came before". However, the context of these statements would reasonably suggest as much:
Take note of what I highlighted, and especially what I underlined and highlighted. Only the force is real. No Hyperspace, no Otherspace, no anyone or anything besides The Force. The Force is all that is truly real in Beyond Shadows. With how explained above that Beyond Shadows inherently exceeds physical composition (as is supported here through the usage of the word weightless), this would mean that it exceeds physical composition in a sense that everything that is not The Force, whether it be Hyperspace, Otherspace, or any other higher-dimensional or lower-dimensional realm or plane of existence, are all just as insignificant and illusory as Ben is in this situation. Hence, it is thus qualitatively beyond physical composition, instead being superior only via it's "real" reality, that being The Force. This would not just include the already 7-D cosmology established above, but any and all extensions of it, which of course would not be The Force, and therefore would also be just as illusory as anything else is in Beyond Shadows.
In either case, we can already establish the fact that this includes all possible and theoretical realms. Barriss Offee, upon achieving a form of Oneness with The Force, was able to sense beyond the dimensions of Realspace, seeing that each and every universe and dimension were all of an "entire piece", connected through vibrating strands of the force utterly beyond the ken of her senses (which were already 5-D at this point in time), worlds without end. This should likely qualify for at minimum 1-B, if not Low 1-A. Yet all of these "worlds without end" are only connected through The Force, and therefore fundamentally distinct from The Force itself. By extension, all of these "worlds without end" would all be a part of the illusory world qualitatively inferior to the "real" one in Beyond Shadows.
Therefore, due to the fact that only the Force is real in Beyond Shadows and everything else is illusory, it represents a discrete jump from everything else, as the criteria requires.
Finally, for this, Beyond Shadows is quite clearly ontologically differentiated from the illusory world beneath it. Physical composition does not exist, instead only "equivalents" of it, the distinction between measurements in time, like seconds, days, or hours, do not exist nor does time itself, and the position of a being in physical and temporal space is made fundamentally distinct from their position in Beyond Shadows unless they choose it to be so. Additionally, all of these ontological differences, as I've described, are attributed to the fact that space-time, and all physical and temporal composition, are illusory and do not exist in Beyond Shadows.
In short, Beyond Shadows qualifies for all of the fundamental criteria for 1-A qualitative superiority
With that out of the way, let's get into who would scale to Beyond Shadows and thus 1-A.
Who scales?
Celestials (The Ones' True Form)
Celestials, A.K.A, the true forms of The Ones beyond their physical manifestations as the Mortis Ghosts, are likely the most concrete example of 1-A characters in Legends.Admittedly, I cannot find solid statements/scans at the moment for my reasoning below, but Wookieepedia should very much be a reliable source which even has sourcing guidelines. Of course, we can't use these in the profile itself, but hopefully someone in this thread later on can find the actual scans so we can source them for the profiles. They, have however, linked a source, that being Fate of The Jedi: Apocalypse. I don't have money to get an E-book, nor can I find it anywhere irl (I've tried), and I can't even find a pirated PDF of it either, legit ones at least. But due to Wookieepedia being organized and managed the way it is, I have no reason to not believe these claims.
Anywho:
This 1-A rating is due to the fact that they are entities native to The Force itself, and their dimension is situated beyond the reach of all mortal understanding as are themselves. They can take any physical form, but none reflect their true nature, again, beyond the comprehension of mortals. This should include Force Users as well, as is explained in TCW S3 E15; "Overlords". Therefore, they also are inherently beyond physical composition in their true forms, but because their dimensions are native to the force itself, and also because the force itself is under their dominion (which is why The Son, The Daughter, and the Father all represent different attributes of The Force as is perceived by mortals), they would logically be amongst the "true" reality that is described in Beyond Shadows, which, FRA, is a 1-A realm qualitatively superior to physical composition completely. As Celestials themselves have similar manners of explanation regarding their true forms being beyond their physical shape, whether it be as The Ones or as The Architects, they would likely stand superior to physical composition as well.
These "true selves" within Beyond Shadows' 1-A reality are even directly described in Fate of the Jedi again for all beings, which logically includes The Ones on Mortis, meaning that the Celestials would likely represent the following:
As is described here, the only "real" existence beyond the illusory world is within "the divine glow of the Force itself". That being, the realm in which Celestials reside in and have under their dominion. Their "dominion", then, is thus that aforementioned a part of that only "real" existence beyond the illusory world of physical composition. Therefore, Celestials also stand qualitatively above the "illusion" of physical matter as is attributed to Beyond Shadows, and exist amongst Beyond Shadows' "true" reality. Very straight forward 1-A reasoning.
Naturally, this would also grant Type 9 immortality for The Ones, beyond their already Type 1, 3, and 8, due to the fact that The Ones are simply physical manifestations of Celestials, and also that other physical manifestations of the Celestials, in particular as "Architects", were able to simply retreat back into their incomprehensible dimension beyond the perception of Rakata and others, upon "disappearing". Presumably also a Type 10 Large Size ability for their Celestial key.
Oh and yeah, if it wasn't obvious enough, all of the Mortis profiles (The Father, Son, and Daughter) will be separated into different keys. My sandbox profiles display what it would look like.
Abeloth (Full Power) and FoTJ (GM) Luke
Before getting started, I would like to propose a key separation between Abeloth; "avatar" and "true form" keys, similarly to The Ones. @Epyriel gave a solid justification for this, albeit indirectly, in Part 1. Her "avatar" key will stay at "At least 1-C" due to outscaling both The Son and Daughter, who are capable of tearing at the fabric of the universe simply by existing in temporal worlds, and also made Mortis the focal point of the Galaxy, thus making Mortis 7-D.However, much like The Ones and their Celestial keys, Abeloth's "true form" resides at a 1-A essence. This is quite simple to prove. Abeloth's true form is situated in Beyond Shadows, and is only capable of being seen through entering Beyond Shadows via the usage of Mind-Walking. This would also further validate The Ones as Celestials being 1-A, as Abeloth's true form is directly on par with them.
As for Luke, this is quite easy to validate as well. In Beyond Shadows, Luke and Abeloth fought in their "true" essences in The Force, ones beyond the illusory physical world, and thus fought in their 1-A essences. At minimum, this should qualify for a "1-A while in Beyond Shadows" or "1-A via mind-walking" change in his profile, since those proceses are capable of allowing him to mege with his 1-A essence in the Force while in Beyond Shadows. Finally, Luke also eventually defeated Abeloth's true form in Beyond Shadows. Easy enough 1-A justification.
TL;DR: Luke and Abeloth can merge their essence with Beyond Shadows and affect it significantly in their final battle. Luke is the only one capable of harming Abeloth (outside of Darth Krayt if you don't consider that an outlier for Krayt/anti-feat for Abeloth). Abeloth's dimension, which she herself sustains, also resides in Beyond Shadows qualitatively beyond physical composition, and her essence is on par with it's existence.
Again, I cannot find actual scans which describe this, however I have no reason to doubt Wookieepedia as a source on this matter, especially since they cite each of their narrative summary paragraphs, which show where the sources are. If someone can somehow find a PDF or has a digital book of the Fate of the Jedi series which can concretely validate these explanations, we'll be home free.
Mortis-Amped Anakin & "The Chosen One"
This one is quite trivial to prove as well. Anakin, as "the chosen one", was originally supposed to replace The Father's role of keeping The Force in balance with The Son and Daughter. Grandmaster Luke and FP Anakin are also repeatedly stated to have comparable potential or even Anakin being superior still. This by default would scale FP/Mortis-amped Anakin to True Form Abeloth, who FRA we've established is 1-A.Changes Overview
Finally, here are some additional updates to the cosmology overviewed in Part 1.Realspace
Previously:Updated:
Hyperspace
Previously:Updated:
The Ones/Celestials (Manifestations as Mortis Ghosts/Architects)
Previously:Updated:
The Ones/Celestials (True Form)
Luke Skywalker (Fate of The Jedi)
The Force
Previously:Updated:
Agree:
Disagree:
