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So which sith lord is stronger than Palpatine then?
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Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode IV The Phantom Lore
- Thread starter Shadowbokunohero
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Well, according to the opinion of some people in the website. It would be Prime Darth Krayt who would be superior to DE Palpatine, if we use legends instead. That's what I can just recall from my memory.
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I think the Mary Sue complaint has been addressed in the third movie. Her strong attunement to the force, her ridiculous skillset (including her being a lightsaber duelist rivaling Kylo Ren, knowing how to swim/dive coming from a desert planet, and being a pilot/mechanic superior to Han Solo), and the ability to easily learn unfamiliar force powers is explained by being a descendant of Palpatine and by her subconsciously using her super-rare telepathic Skype bond with Kylo Ren.
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She was never a Mary Sue
but the third film goes out of it;s way to double it down for those who complained about it.
There isnt a single Important Victory for Rey in TROS that doesnt happen because of outside help.
but the third film goes out of it;s way to double it down for those who complained about it.
There isnt a single Important Victory for Rey in TROS that doesnt happen because of outside help.
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He was patronizing Kylo and was BS considering Kylo's state during that fight.
Snoke was an asshole and deserved to die by Kylo's Hands
Snoke was an asshole and deserved to die by Kylo's Hands
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It also works with his arc in killing Snoke
Kylo lived in the shadow of Snoke's intent and Vader's legacy so showing Snoke's mistreatment of Kylo it helps us think Kylo will turn on him
Kylo lived in the shadow of Snoke's intent and Vader's legacy so showing Snoke's mistreatment of Kylo it helps us think Kylo will turn on him
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Kylo has Intentionally and Unintentionally Killed more Important character than Vader lol.
everyone that gets close to him dies.
everyone that gets close to him dies.
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But yeah his one of my fav star wars characters and by far the best in this trilogy IMO
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I got the book "The Mighty Chewbacca in the Forest of Fear" and it's actually a fun read.
In it, K-2SO describes Trandoshans as "fierce warriors and very tough to kill". The fact that he says that further backs up 9-A for Bossk, and the likes of The Mandaloria for trading blows with three of those lizard men.
In it, K-2SO describes Trandoshans as "fierce warriors and very tough to kill". The fact that he says that further backs up 9-A for Bossk, and the likes of The Mandaloria for trading blows with three of those lizard men.
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Rey used to be a Mary Sue. Kylo being injured in the FA is no excuse for Rey to beat him, since Kylo demolished Finn (a stormtrooper trained to fight since he was a child) moments prior when he tried to duel him.
Agree that Kylo Ren carried the trilogy with Adam Driver's acting. But anyone else find the Rylo pairing to be cringe? All Rey have seen and heard of Kylo is that he kills people and massacares towns; she even witnessed him try to kill his parents and successed in killing Han Solo.
Agree that Kylo Ren carried the trilogy with Adam Driver's acting. But anyone else find the Rylo pairing to be cringe? All Rey have seen and heard of Kylo is that he kills people and massacares towns; she even witnessed him try to kill his parents and successed in killing Han Solo.
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He toyed with Finn until Finn hurt him on his shoulder which he followed up by one shotting him, this while being emotionally distraught and InjuredShadowWhoWalks said:
He had no Intention of Killing Rey, You can watch the Fight again, he overpowers her until they reach the end of the cliff and Rey gives into her anger and Ren is caught off Guard and defeated.
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People also seem to forget that Finn also had no lightsaber training against, aside from using it against a stun baton explicitly meant to reduce their effectiveness.
If you're wondering, First Order training includes one-handed stun baton training, but not swords or lightsabers. Finn also had no formal training and is mostly a gunner.
@Shadow Kylo had a hole in his chest from a Wookiee Bowcaster, which are much more powerful than most blasters, and was bleeding onto the ground, in addition to a lightsaber wound on his back. Why is this not sufficient injury?
I agree about the pairing, as brief as it was, being very strange. Can't say it was out of nowhere, though.
If you're wondering, First Order training includes one-handed stun baton training, but not swords or lightsabers. Finn also had no formal training and is mostly a gunner.
@Shadow Kylo had a hole in his chest from a Wookiee Bowcaster, which are much more powerful than most blasters, and was bleeding onto the ground, in addition to a lightsaber wound on his back. Why is this not sufficient injury?
I agree about the pairing, as brief as it was, being very strange. Can't say it was out of nowhere, though.
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Rey has a whole fan base of her own. What was the original idea behind the character?
"The idea was to tell a tale of a young woman who was innately powerful, innately moral, innately good, but also struggling with her place in the world and forced to fend for herself in every way. As exciting as it was to get to play in the Star Wars universe, it was this young woman that I felt oddly compelled to get to know. Even at the very first meeting with Kathleen Kennedy, the idea came up about having a female at the center of it. There was an inherent sense of "We've seen the story before of the young hero," but we'd never seen it through the eyes of a woman like this, and that, to me, was the most exciting thing."
One thing you hear from people is that the character of Rey feels preternaturally gifted, even for a Jedi — that she learns things faster than, say, Luke Skywalker ever did.
"Yeah, spooky, right? [Smiles] It's a fair point. It's not an accident."
JJ Abrams planned her to be a Mary Sue from the start. I can't even create a mental profile for her personality, because I really don't understand her emotions and personhood. I know more about Rose in this way than I do Rey.
Can, like, her stans explain who she is? Cause... I'm lost, and I want to like her more. I can write every other character, but Rey, because it feels like her actions are guided less by the character's interests and more by the plot itself. As are her powers.
"The idea was to tell a tale of a young woman who was innately powerful, innately moral, innately good, but also struggling with her place in the world and forced to fend for herself in every way. As exciting as it was to get to play in the Star Wars universe, it was this young woman that I felt oddly compelled to get to know. Even at the very first meeting with Kathleen Kennedy, the idea came up about having a female at the center of it. There was an inherent sense of "We've seen the story before of the young hero," but we'd never seen it through the eyes of a woman like this, and that, to me, was the most exciting thing."
One thing you hear from people is that the character of Rey feels preternaturally gifted, even for a Jedi — that she learns things faster than, say, Luke Skywalker ever did.
"Yeah, spooky, right? [Smiles] It's a fair point. It's not an accident."
JJ Abrams planned her to be a Mary Sue from the start. I can't even create a mental profile for her personality, because I really don't understand her emotions and personhood. I know more about Rose in this way than I do Rey.
Can, like, her stans explain who she is? Cause... I'm lost, and I want to like her more. I can write every other character, but Rey, because it feels like her actions are guided less by the character's interests and more by the plot itself. As are her powers.
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how was she a Mary Sue at the end of the film?
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She needed help from every XYZ to defeat XYZ and still died.
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The fact that;
A. She was a palpatine. Like, that's some fanfic trope shit, being the child of a powerful character to justify your broken status as a new god tier of the verse. Which. Like, isn't innately bad. But it's a partial justification for;
B. The fact that she, who would otherwise be insignificant and equal to every other living thing in the galaxy aside for her lineage, manages to get the help from "every XYZ" in the first place. A part of being a Mary Sue isn't just that you're powerful, nor does it mean you can do no wrong. It's that everyone aside from the villains who are supposed to dislike you, and in far too many cases, even the villains themselves— and especially the older/Original generation of characters in the movies all like you. Like, Luke didn't at first but that entire movie had Luke act out of character and be against the Jedi and treat her and everything he used to stand for like a cringe high school moment. He was basically just being a dick to be a dick. And then she terrifies him with her raw power, which goes into;
C. Her outrageous power level. Like, being a palpatine isn't enough to justify her somehow being able to resist Kylo Ren's mind hax— when it's established by the end of the movie that their "dyad" nature should make them comparable to each other. It doesn't justify a telekinetic grip turning into a completely different power that presumably requires different actions and thought processes to accomplish. It doesn't justify her being able to ******* fly, when no one else has shown that in canon, and the more serious, better list of the flaws goes on.
A. She was a palpatine. Like, that's some fanfic trope shit, being the child of a powerful character to justify your broken status as a new god tier of the verse. Which. Like, isn't innately bad. But it's a partial justification for;
B. The fact that she, who would otherwise be insignificant and equal to every other living thing in the galaxy aside for her lineage, manages to get the help from "every XYZ" in the first place. A part of being a Mary Sue isn't just that you're powerful, nor does it mean you can do no wrong. It's that everyone aside from the villains who are supposed to dislike you, and in far too many cases, even the villains themselves— and especially the older/Original generation of characters in the movies all like you. Like, Luke didn't at first but that entire movie had Luke act out of character and be against the Jedi and treat her and everything he used to stand for like a cringe high school moment. He was basically just being a dick to be a dick. And then she terrifies him with her raw power, which goes into;
C. Her outrageous power level. Like, being a palpatine isn't enough to justify her somehow being able to resist Kylo Ren's mind hax— when it's established by the end of the movie that their "dyad" nature should make them comparable to each other. It doesn't justify a telekinetic grip turning into a completely different power that presumably requires different actions and thought processes to accomplish. It doesn't justify her being able to ******* fly, when no one else has shown that in canon, and the more serious, better list of the flaws goes on.
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A. If unknowingly being related to someone powerful equates to being a Mary Sue (or the male equivalent), then you'll have to slap that label on more characters than I can count. Plus, Anakin himself was conceived by the force and a human woman.
B - Part 1. You could literally say the same thing about Luke in the original films, who just so happened to find one of the last force sensitives in the galaxy (though Rebels retcons him into Luke's guardian of sorts), an Astromech Droid that had all the information about the Death Star, and a morally grey human smuggler. The reason Rey was involved was because a BB unit was on Jakku, which is a very popular outer rim planet for ships, in R2's case it was because the message got to him instead of Obi-Wan, a trained force sensitive.
B - Part 2: Luke didn't act out of character, he shut himself off from the force because Kylo killed went on a rampage. Also, who likes her? We have Finn, the Resistance (whom she consistently helps and is apart of), Maz Kanata, Han Solo and a bunch of random people who are generally against the First Order/Palpatine, or on the Reistance's side. What makes her a Mary Sue here?
C. This is completely justified, but also explained later in the series.
B - Part 1. You could literally say the same thing about Luke in the original films, who just so happened to find one of the last force sensitives in the galaxy (though Rebels retcons him into Luke's guardian of sorts), an Astromech Droid that had all the information about the Death Star, and a morally grey human smuggler. The reason Rey was involved was because a BB unit was on Jakku, which is a very popular outer rim planet for ships, in R2's case it was because the message got to him instead of Obi-Wan, a trained force sensitive.
B - Part 2: Luke didn't act out of character, he shut himself off from the force because Kylo killed went on a rampage. Also, who likes her? We have Finn, the Resistance (whom she consistently helps and is apart of), Maz Kanata, Han Solo and a bunch of random people who are generally against the First Order/Palpatine, or on the Reistance's side. What makes her a Mary Sue here?
C. This is completely justified, but also explained later in the series.
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A: this applies to Both Luke and Anakin, the reason people Justify Anakin's insane capabilities in TPM such as out flying trained Military Pilots, able to see complex images through his mind and podrace (which no other human can do) is because his the Chosen One.
B: you not liking Luke isnt an argument, He doesnt look at her kindly and neither do the nuns, and Poe literally complains about Rey in the opening of the next film.
C: This applies to Luke aswell, tell me where he learns to Force choke in ROTJ when the film makes it clear to us that there was no training between V and VI?
B: you not liking Luke isnt an argument, He doesnt look at her kindly and neither do the nuns, and Poe literally complains about Rey in the opening of the next film.
C: This applies to Luke aswell, tell me where he learns to Force choke in ROTJ when the film makes it clear to us that there was no training between V and VI?
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.witch was a Star Trek fan charater who was perfact in every way. You are all smart . We should stop using the trem Mary Sue it is outdated
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Hello thier I am back
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Rey clearly has an aptitude for technology. She made a living by scavaging the Empire's best ships, including a whole fleet of Imperial-Class Star Deatroyers and an Executor. She also talks to Han with extreme familiarity about hyperdrives. Force sensitives are explicitly very good at flying in both Legends and Canon, which is why Rey could one-shot three TIEs with a single blast.
I agree about a lot of the force stuff, though. Luke had to go to Degobah before he learned about mind tricks.
I agree about a lot of the force stuff, though. Luke had to go to Degobah before he learned about mind tricks.
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A. Yeah. But both of them had to grind to earn their power. Rey already had, like, far more than they did without even knowing what the force was. The realistic grounding of her powerlevel is non-existent. She's too strong for no reason, even by the standards of people who got their powers from lineage like she had. lmao And also, no, he's able to do those things because most force sensitives can do that on a lower scale. He's just super force sensitive. He hasn't resisted mind hax from a trained Sith, nor beat one in a fight that even with a hole in his chest and in his shoulder, anyone of Kylo's caliber, especially as we see later on, should be able to do. Luke had to grind hard, and he still lost against Vader, AND was fighting for his life in the finale. We undercut rey's only real loss with her attacking her opponent and then healing him so she's never able to do anything wrong. No. Being related to someone strong doesn't make you a Mary Sue. It's a sign of one. It's a common tool used by amateur hack 12 year old writers like I was when I was a kid to justify their characters being overly strong and nothing like the average person in the verse. I said it wasn't bad by itself, but when you demonstrate power beyond even those you're related to, yeah, no, that's pretty bad. Anakin might literally be Star Wars Jesus, but he still got stomped by Dooku, and he wasn't nearly as powerful as Rey displays herself to be without any proper training.
B. I wasn't making that my argument. I was saying that Luke was designed by the plot to act in opposition to her, rather than him by rights being the person who should have at least welcomed her in character. And sure, grasp at Poe, who was mad at her not because she was bad, but because they NEED her. Because she's so important. The one time someone legit dislikes her for something, it's because she's so perfect and powerful that not having her around is a detriment to others. Totally a character flaw and makes her not a Mary Sue. Who are the nuns? Do you mean the cult of Sith people that aren't even actual characters? And how does this contradict the fact that she's basically the hero of the resistance and everyone looks up to her like Rose did Finn but on Rey and from everyone? Sure, a chunk of the characters are inclined to like her for their own organic reasons, but it's still a sign of a Mary Sue when a lot of the old characters and stuff like you just because. How does that counter the overall? Anakin was definitely lucky in a contrived way, as was his son and daughter, but if we look at the context of the verse, Ben was watching Luke, his chosen one best friend and student's orphan CHILD, from the beginning, so him being connected to Luke is organic. Everything else you listed is more plot contrivance than all the characters liking him for no reason. You know what a Mary Sue is, yeah? And IIRC, Mark Hamil himself hated how they handled Luke and felt it was out of character. The actor himself. Who played the original. I don't think that's something we can dismiss. Even if the others liking her is a nitpick, this doesn't negate her being far too unreasonably perfect, especially given JJ Abrams says it himself.
C: No. It's not. Luke couldn't even lift his tie fighter after training with Yoda, and yet in one training session, she's lifted massive boulders to save the resistance, and on top of that, in a comparatively short amount of time. She's learned to ******* fly, which even in Legends was a very rare and difficult ability to learn. And the force choking? I'm fairly certain there was some self training in between the two movies, given the comics show him fighting stuff in between there. And even if I give you that, that doesn't make Rey not a Mary Sue. It just makes Luke slightly more overpowered to the point of being unreasonable. My problem isn't that they're stronger than average and that they're not an every man. My problem is that Rey is stronger than all of them at time in her life where they had more help than she ever had. She's too strong even by chosen one standards.
B. I wasn't making that my argument. I was saying that Luke was designed by the plot to act in opposition to her, rather than him by rights being the person who should have at least welcomed her in character. And sure, grasp at Poe, who was mad at her not because she was bad, but because they NEED her. Because she's so important. The one time someone legit dislikes her for something, it's because she's so perfect and powerful that not having her around is a detriment to others. Totally a character flaw and makes her not a Mary Sue. Who are the nuns? Do you mean the cult of Sith people that aren't even actual characters? And how does this contradict the fact that she's basically the hero of the resistance and everyone looks up to her like Rose did Finn but on Rey and from everyone? Sure, a chunk of the characters are inclined to like her for their own organic reasons, but it's still a sign of a Mary Sue when a lot of the old characters and stuff like you just because. How does that counter the overall? Anakin was definitely lucky in a contrived way, as was his son and daughter, but if we look at the context of the verse, Ben was watching Luke, his chosen one best friend and student's orphan CHILD, from the beginning, so him being connected to Luke is organic. Everything else you listed is more plot contrivance than all the characters liking him for no reason. You know what a Mary Sue is, yeah? And IIRC, Mark Hamil himself hated how they handled Luke and felt it was out of character. The actor himself. Who played the original. I don't think that's something we can dismiss. Even if the others liking her is a nitpick, this doesn't negate her being far too unreasonably perfect, especially given JJ Abrams says it himself.
C: No. It's not. Luke couldn't even lift his tie fighter after training with Yoda, and yet in one training session, she's lifted massive boulders to save the resistance, and on top of that, in a comparatively short amount of time. She's learned to ******* fly, which even in Legends was a very rare and difficult ability to learn. And the force choking? I'm fairly certain there was some self training in between the two movies, given the comics show him fighting stuff in between there. And even if I give you that, that doesn't make Rey not a Mary Sue. It just makes Luke slightly more overpowered to the point of being unreasonable. My problem isn't that they're stronger than average and that they're not an every man. My problem is that Rey is stronger than all of them at time in her life where they had more help than she ever had. She's too strong even by chosen one standards.
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Those could be tector class look them up. Are you upset with me
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Thier was only one executor class dreadnought not a fleet of them And why the god can a 2.4 Kilometer warship blow up a planet withen about 2 minutes a thought you needed something Death Star scale do do that. But the death star disintegrated a planetary scale object infractions of a second at thousands of kilometers per second.
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@Resurgence There's one Executor (Vader's flagship and the prototype of its class), but multiple Executor-class vessels, such as the Ravager.
@Amexim She was highly confident about piloting a quadjumper, so probably. Also, you did miss something
@Amexim She was highly confident about piloting a quadjumper, so probably. Also, you did miss something
Code:
Rey: Unkar Plutt did. I thought it was a mistake too, puts too much stress on
Code:
HAN (OVERLAPPING HER): The hyperdrive Chewie, throw 'em in a pod, we'll drop them at the nearest inhabited planet.- 22,058
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We don't need an in-depth explaination for why she's an extremely good pilot, we can infer enough with what we have. That would've slowed down the movie, which is why we're only told once that Luke practiced on rats instead of seeing it.
Also, Luke himself hasn't gone to the academy and only uses speedsters, yet he can pilot X-Wings better than everyone, except maybe Antilles.
I bring up Luke because if everyone is a Mary Sue, nobody is.
Also, Luke himself hasn't gone to the academy and only uses speedsters, yet he can pilot X-Wings better than everyone, except maybe Antilles.
I bring up Luke because if everyone is a Mary Sue, nobody is.
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To play Devil's advocate. I do believe that a definition of a Mary Sue is someone who bends the will of the plot or the universe to obey the character.
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But only one was used at that battle.
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Eh, I' m more referring to this kind of element of being a Mary Sue. This part of the video explains of what I meant:
https://youtu.be/KcXVGIi1m28?t=288
https://youtu.be/KcXVGIi1m28?t=288
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Not a reason for why she's a good pilot. Any reason at all, even a passing glance at a bookshelf or something— maybe a line in a novelization about books on space crafts she bought using rations instead of food? We need a reason why she understand what the **** a hyper reactor is. I can drive a car just fine, but I barely know how an engine works.
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She literally tells us in the film she has flown ships before but never left the planet.Amexim said:
she doesnt fly that well either,she scrotches the bottom part of teh falcon when she lifts off, and scarpes it dozens of time on the ground or the debris, she also gets shots consistently by two Tie fighters.
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