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Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode IV The Phantom Lore

> Mark Hamil himself hated how they handled Luke and felt it was out of character. The actor himself. Who played the original. I don't think that's something we can dismiss.

Yes we can, they are actors not writers, Alec Guiness said Star Wars was rubbish, anthony daniels thinks Rise of Skywalker is the best, Harrison Ford thinks Han solo's end in the force awakens is better than what happens to him in Return of the Jedi.

Frank Oz said Yoda In TLJ was perfectly in character despite the complaints.

George Lucas thinks empire strikes back is the worst star wars film

Mark Hamill intially wanted Luke to go the Darkside.

ect ect.
 
Look, I think you're misinterpreting my point. It's not the individual things she does or has that makes her a Mary Sue, but all of them in combination, AND her capability that exists far beyond characters who are already "chosen ones". Luke never lifted boulders huge enough to crush planes without needing training. Anakin never struck fear in a Grandmaster Level Jedi in canon. And Palpatine, to my knowledge, wasn't so gifted in the force that he could use mind tricks without understanding it, AND be immune to the mind tricks of a Sith Lord that's apparently about as Strong as... Well... Rey. It's not her having talent or having power beyond the normal creatures that matters, it's her having power beyond even those who are "special" in the setting, on top of surpassing the feats they accomplished with training without her training, on several cases. It's that the creators themselves both acknowledge and designed her with the purpose of being a Mary Sue. It's more a cherry on top with some garnish or flavor to add on a bit of taste that was missing when characters and important beings in the verse hyperfocus on her and bend their way to her as if SHE was the real chosen one. Her having the potential to do all of this is fine. But the fact that she does what both Luke and Anakin, who you wanna frame as Mary Sues despite the fact that they had to work hard in their setting even with their innate gifts to get half as strong as Rey started out, it's not hard to come to the conclusion that she's a Mary Sue.
 
Luke never lifted boulders huge enough to crush planes without needing training.
He went on to defeat Darth Vader , we already established that there is no training between V and VI, even if you use comics to justify your argument the same can be applied to Rey, Luke is capable of not just contending with one of the greatest duelist of all time but he can also read Vader's thoughts, force choke, do double jumps ect

Rey beats an emotionally distraught character who was just shot with a bowcaster who is actively not trying to harm her.

using your logic Luke Skywalker in ESB= Vader because not only does he get quite a few hits, he gasses Vader and kicks him off a ledge hard enough for him to retreat into the Shadows for a while.

Luke also telepathically moves an Object that's moving at sub relativistic speeds into an exhaust port.

How does Luke know telekenisis in ESB? there's no reason for him to know it, Obi Wan is dead and only appears to him again as a ghost. if you need supplimentary content to answer this then i can literally do the same for Rey.
 
So flying a plane equals understanding a super high tech part of its machinery? News to me.

And most of the things you listed to "counter" my point are opinions about the work's quality rather than ideas about the characters being faithful to their original personalities, or desires for directions as it relates to the character's futures.

While we have the director's saying the point of Rey was to be a super op character with little personal flaws that just has to find her place and the world— acknowledging and agreeing that she's a Mary Sue in so many words. While we have people who worked closely with writers and directors of the films stating:

"'What he has to understand,' producer Ram Murali says at one point in Wonke's film, 'is that he's not Luke Skywalker in this trilogy. He's Obi Wan.'"

That his entire arc has switched to that of a different character's entirely. I understand death of the author, and I guess death of the actor and director and executive producer and anyone who, while not objectively having the final say on what is true due to the possibility and often reasonably high likelihood of them not knowing what they're talking about as it relates to their creation like we nerdy consumers do, are at least the ones who would be the best to ask for information on the work itself if available, but if you wanna argue against both the evidence in the work itself as well as cherrypicking pieces of things other people loosely said as well cherrypicking really small pieces of information that doesn't really impact any of the actual arguments against Rey's character quality, then... I hope you got good grades in English classes in school. Anyway, it's just my analysis anyway.
 
I don't think we established that at all, given you didn't post any massive or even notable amount of evidence to suggest that it was all but impossible for him to have done some grinding to get stronger and improve himself to that level. Given the comics make it clear that he was still doing Jedi shit between those movies and making it possible that he improved himself, as well as all but guaranteeing it. And no one was stopping you from pulling out information. I'm asking for an explanation, not trying to win some stupid nerd argument, so the more you can explain her OP level power, the more I'll like her. If you do have supplemental canon, then why haven't you used it, and why do you assume and restrict my access to it as if that's supposed to make Rey a better character.

In addition, your framing of my argument is either deliberately disingenuous or woefully ignorant of the greater point. Perhaps I'm bad at explaining, but it seems extremely dishonest to ignore things like "resists Kylo's mind hax" and a bunch of other crazy shit that she has done with no training whatsoever. Even if Luke didn't train, that doesn't make Rey not a Mary Sue. The fact that the plot bent and nerfed Kylo to the point of being beatable doesn't help her case, because of course she has to win. Luke still had to earn at least a notable portion of his capabilities generally speaking, whereas Rey was at least Jedi Knight Level without training at all. Had she been fodder, even a casual flick from Kylo could destroy her. The telekinesis Luke displayed when getting his lightsaber from the snow is nothing in comparison to what Rey displays in TLJ. I might be mistaken, but I don't recall Luke ever teaching her how to move boulders, nevermind basic telekinesis. Also, again, casually mind tricking a stormtrooper and negging Kylo Ren's mind hax when she failed to do that the first time isn't comparable to her getting minor TK to grab the lightsaber like Luke did. A lot of the shit in that movie was PIS and you know it. Kylo could have easily stomped Finn. We have seen Jedi shrug off worse wounds and keep fighting far closer to their peak than what would have been necessary to lose against Rey and Finn for. She's way OP for not many very good reasons, and other characters with similar lineages had to grind to get half as good as her. She was on Luke's planet for, like, a couple days, and somehow she's able to outclass Luke with ease? Ok.
 
So flying a plane equals understanding a super high tech part of its machinery? News to me.


No, but scavenging items and pieces of starfighters and stardestroyers will because you would need to know what part is what to be able to identify the value of what you would later need to sell.


And most of the things you listed to "counter" my point are opinions about the work's quality rather than ideas about the characters being faithful to their original personalities


Are you being Dishonest or what? Harrison Ford argued that the character of Han Solo in the Force Awakens is superior to his Return of the Jedi version because it fulfils the Initial role of what Harrison Ford Han solo should have been, a Matyr that would drive the plot forward while Anthony Daniels was in regards to the treatment of C-3P0 in last two Sequels and Prequel trilogy.

While we have the director's saying the point of Rey was to be a super op character with little personal flaws that just has to find her place and the world— acknowledging and agreeing that she's a Mary Sue in so many words.

No, the intent behind that is that they didn't want a character who' was weak, it's not some Obscure archetype, you can see it in films like Sanjuro by Akira Kurosawa or in Manga like Dragonball, John Wick ect, the point of their character at a baseline level is that they are proficient at what the story needs them to be so that whatever Arc they take can springboard from that, Rey's arc is finding what her role is in the story,you can functionally have an Omnipotent character and still not be a gary or Mary stu.


"'What he has to understand,' producer Ram Murali says at one point in Wonke's film, 'is that he's not Luke Skywalker in this trilogy. He's Obi Wan.'"


Because his archetype has shifted because the Narrative has, this isn't anything new and has been a part of storytelling and the monomyth for thousands of years, you realize what happens to king Arthur once he unites the Kingdoms and what not Right?, Obi Wan isn't the old mentor Figure in the Prequels but he is in the Originals, why is that? because the focus of the story has changed.


but if you wanna argue against both the evidence in the work itself as well as cherrypicking pieces of things other people loosely said as well cherrypicking really small pieces of information that doesn't really impact any of the actual arguments against Rey's character quality, then... I hope you got good grades in English classes in school. Anyway, it's just my analysis anyway.


You used Anakin and Luke as baseline for your argument that I rebutted and all you did as a counter argument was fall back on a quote that you projected your own feelings onto and simply brushed off the evidence I provided as cherry picks.


you then fall onto the argument that Rey is a Mary Sue because she is more special than characters that are already special in this Fictional world, which is a ridiculous argument to make because it assumes that every special person needs to be on the same relative level which is literally contradicted by the existence of Luke who trains for a few days then goes onto learn new force powers, build a lightsaber and defeat one of the most powerful Sith lord's of all time while Anakin had to train for decades.


This also highlights your clear misunderstanding of the source material and it's usage in the Narrative, the force isn't a Ki system that requires grinding to get stronger, this isn't a video game, The Reason Luke is unable to lift the X wing isn't because he hasn't trained enough it's because of his lack of belief in being able to do it as quoted by Yoda. The Force is spiritual and it's why Luke being a badass Jedi in return of the Jedi functionally works because it was never about how much he trained but about his resolve and ideals as a person.
 
Didn't Rey Force Heal the snake thing because the Force told her how to do it?

Also, since when could the light side of the Force bring people back to life? Isn't defying death consistantly dark side in nature.
 
Kids can build lightsabres the clone ways and luke needed an entire fleet to do that and Vader direcly killed him not luke. Luke did not kill the emperor and Ray would not know how hyperdrives engines sensors communications and weapons works. a watto said a hyperdrive would be more expensive than a entire starship.
 
1. That doesn't explain how she knows it, it just explains why she would need to understand it. Stating that it's an important skill for her to survive isn't explaining where she learned it. I'm asking you where she learned that from.

2. Yeah, sure, list one thing out of the other 5 or so that have little to do with Mark Hamil's opinion being invalid as it relates to his idea of what is in character for Luke. If you're gonna get hostile with me, mr. Staff Member, i'd caution against it. Just warning you.

3. Innately powerful, innately moral, innately good, none of that has the same implication as "we just don't want her to be weak". In a hero's journey story, having a functionally omnipotent character is the antithesis of the story itself. It's not fun to go through an adventure with a character that's too strong to be threatened by anything, nor does you admitting that she's super powerful defeat anything i'm saying. It only makes her closer to a Mary Sue, especially considering Omnipotent characters with arcs like what they wanted to go through have conflicts that involve nothing connected to beating a villain. That's a weird champ argument.

3. Shifting his entire character archetype is literally taking the character out of what they were before. Hence Mark thinking it's out of character. Plus, Luke wouldn't just so easily give up hope, especially in Mark's eyes. This doesn't make him not "out of character" in the slightest. And back to 2, if the focus was on Rey's place in the universe, why did they write an adventure and place her in a narrative where she has to overcome obstacles.

4. I didn't intend to or even measurably accomplish insulting you at all, so drop this aggressive bullshit please. I even say that it might be me explaining myself badly? And the ******* school quip was clearly a joke. It's the second time i've Seen you go off on someone like this. As a staff member here, it's ridiculous for you to be pulling this kind of shit, and I bet you'll get away with it too. If you don't like me calling your choices of evidence cherrypicking, and think me trying not to attack you personally and clarify i'm just stating my opinion is some attempt to project whatever the **** onto you, not only are you mistaken, but you need to take your apparently sick ass away from your internet and rest, because you're obviously in too much of a bad mood to think straight if you think me disagreeing with you lightly is any grounds for this. This is why I avoid talking here, because the staff here is so... Yikes man. One second they police the community member's tones, the next they get snarky and rude with people who don't even want smoke. And to address your rant even slightly before I dip out, because i'm done here, how is her being more special than other already special people a positive sign and totally not a trait of a Mary Sue? How is her, not even knowing much about the force that you claim is a "belief" based powersystem even though we see things like Lineage, and training come into play more than ever in this trilogy than anything, being super duper overpowered supposed to help her case? Belief didn't seem to give Anakin the ability to beat Dooku. It was because he trained himself and got stronger. I'm done here.
 
Amexim said:
Not a reason for why she's a good pilot. Any reason at all, even a passing glance at a bookshelf or something— maybe a line in a novelization about books on space crafts she bought using rations instead of food? We need a reason why she understand what the **** a hyper reactor is. I can drive a car just fine, but I barely know how an engine works.
Click to expand...
According to the novel and visual directory, she built her own speedster to use and became very skilled and piloting. She also practised with an AT-AT. From the movie, we can also infer that she later used more advanced vessels.

We don't know why she's so good at technology because there's nothing that needs explaining; she's a scavenger, employed by Plutt, who would need this knowledge. Also, the visual directory and novelisation say she has intrinsic knowledge and aptitude for technology.
 
I can accept Baby Yoda healing with the Force since we barely know anything about their species other than Yoda and him being very strong with the Force. As with Rey, what we've seen with humans in Star Wars is that unless you're the Chosen One, you have to learn how to do most things like telekinesis, and she just knows how to do these things often out of nowhere.

Ben Solo becoming a Force Ghost surprised me. I can accept him learning how to revive people by seeing Rey heal him and treating that as the first step to a bigger thing, but apparently Luke taught him how to be a Force Ghost?
 
I find it both funny and frustrating that Ahsoka Tano is one of the many spirits that talk to Rey at the end. Either she's meditating on some backwater planet or she's dead and is communicating as a Force Ghost even though she would be in her 70s by TRoS and thus younger than Dooku when he died.
 
This idea that Force training is real completely goes against ESB and RotJ. Yoda blatently says in ESB that their is no difference between lifting X-wings and lifting small rocks and that if Luke had simply believed hard enough he would have done it. Then in RotJ Luke returns for more "training" only to be told he's good and will be a Jedi once he beats Vader. So Luke went from weaker than supresed Vader in ESB to equal or stronger than Vader going all out in RotJ with no extra "training" (why would Luke go for more training if he's already been training?). Also he discovered telekinesis on his own offscreen in ESB.

Now you might be saying "but the Jedi trained during the prequels" which is true but it completely ignores the fact that the Jedi are meant to be wrong in the prequels. They go completely against Yoda's saying "a Jedi uses the force only for knowledge and defense, never attack" by being Generals and they follow the Darth Sidious' (the very obvious evil guy) orders for several years.

On top of this if you need to train to use the force then how did the Jedi find new force users in a galaxy of trillions to likely quadrillions of beings when there are seemingly only a few thousand Force users at any time? The very obvious answer is that they see children using the force which would mean non-trained people can use the force.

If you still believe force training is a thing I want you to read this and explain how it and the movies can possibly make any sense together (I don't care if you agree or disagree with the parts that don't relate to the force): https://m.imgur.com/r/starwars/6smO9

So no the force isn't some training thing its almost completely belief based. If you believe you can do something with the force hard enough then you can do it (as long as your force sensitive).
 
@Cmuell015

I believe the point is that without rules and limitations, the Force becomes a broken magic system. At the current state of the Force in Disney Canon, what are said rules and limitations?

In Legends, the Jedi found force sensitives through mandadory blood tests which are recorded in the Archive Holocrons.

It's not that training is needed to use the force in general. It's that some techniques should be more difficult to perform than others. Training in the Force involves focus and concentration in the force to mold and manipulate it more precisely. As shown in the films, some force powers cause more strain than others.
 
That's the point. You need rules, limitations, and consistency. And even outside of that, there are some things people are willing to accept despite breaking previously established rules. It all boils down to competent writing. Otherwise, you severely break the Willing Suspension of Disbelief and power levels start going haywire. You can't just unironically say "it's magic, ain't gotta explain shit".
 
The Jedi being wrong in the prequels doesn't negate anything though, right? The stuff you listed had nothing to do with training, and you attempted to handwave the fact that they were, by your own acknowledgement, legitimately training by saying they were... Narratively supposed to be the ones in the wrong. About what though? Everything? Including how to make a large amount if powerful telekinetic superhumans? Who, from a young age know nothing but what you show them as truth and therefore are likely to have the firmist beliefs, and yet Sith still kill them? What does Palpatine "obviously being evil" have to do with training to get stronger? What does using the force offensively have to do with training not being a factor? And didn't Yoda literally open up his fight with Sidious and his guards with Telekinesis? Not only that, but they were all lead by Yoda, who was ok being called a General in these wars. And the fact that they were "wrong" despite all being trained and led by the same person who you're using to justify your anti-training position kind of destroys your argument on all fronts, yeah? Because if the Jedi are wrong, Yoda was wrong with them, most of all being their grandmaster.

This is also completely ignoring how Yoda was training Luke from the ground up as if he was a youngling. Younglings know nothing about the force, not even what is or isn't possible, and are more likely to embrace limitations they see in the world based on how they've lived their lives. Yoda saying these things is the equivalent of the bald kid in the Matrix telling Neo to free his mind. Same with Morpheus. It's incredibly similar, yeah, and matches your position perfectly, but it is contradicted by many different things in the franchise. Characters have to learn how to use the force in extended content, canon or legends all the time. I don't remember if it's canon or legends, but Yoda taught Dooku how to use TK by saying the same belief based stuff, but the reason why he couldn't do TK very well was more likely because, like with anything, not believing in yourself can hamper your capacity to accomplish that which you set out to do. If it was just belief, how do people win or lose force battles? And worse, how could Yoda, who understands this more than anyone ever be put on the back foot with Sidious's force lightning? Surely he would know that the key to doing so is belief and thus everything should be easy. Where's the belief in Rey resisting mind manipulation without even knowing much about the force to begin with? Did she believe in herself enough? By this logic, what stops a Jedi from just ripping the planet apart? You say "almost completely" and yet we can find almost every example where force powers are employed that belief comes as of course an important part, but secondary to training and potential and raw power.

And then there's the fact that you don't understand now Jedi found force sensitives. Can't they tell by how well they can build machines or pilot speeders or sense them or take illegal blood tests without their consent? And how do these children use the force without even knowing to believe in it? Isn't it more likely based on the events given in canon and legends that belief is a gateway to capability in using the force? It's half a mental thing, and not believing in yourself will hamper your mind significantly.

And, of course I agree with the Magic system consistency stuff.
 
Like, Baby Yoda doesn't even have the mental capacity to form beliefs. How is he able to do anything? My explanation according to what we know about the franchise as a whole is; he's really good at using the force as his whole species are, and that doesn't have much to do with believing in yourself inherently— but obviously it's still important because believing something is impossible is going to make doing it even harder. I'm not negating that belief plays a part. But when you have chosen ones and skywalker and Palpatine children being strong because their parents were strong, I don't see where "belief" comes into that power system any more significantly than it does passing my math test. I still had to study, but me not believing I can pass it will, at worse make me never take it, and at best make me perform far less than I would if I believed it was possible to pass. Neo's kids shouldn't be any more able to free their mind than anyone else if the Matrix's power system is based entirely on believing you can do something, ya get me?
 
Firestorm808 said:
Considering how old she was by the Battle of Endor, she might have died of old age.
Click to expand...
Ahsoka by the Battle of Endor was in her late 30s. By the time of the Sequel trilogy, she'd be in her early 70s. A councillor level Jedi that has been keeping herself physically fit should have no trouble staying active at that age. Look at Dooku: he regularly went two-on-one against Anakin & Obi-Wan at 83 years old.

My guess is that something killed her.
 
Natse said:
That's the point. You need rules, limitations, and consistency. And even outside of that, there are some things people are willing to accept despite breaking previously established rules. It all boils down to competent writing. Otherwise, you severely break the Willing Suspension of Disbelief and power levels start going haywire. You can't just unironically say "it's magic, ain't gotta explain shit".
Click to expand...
Yes you can

it's called a Soft Magic System. Lord of the rings is a prime example of doing magic that fits the plot with out actually explaining anything.

Unless you're trying to Imply Lord of the Rings doesnt have competent writing
 
Lord of the rings is a prime example of doing magic that fits the plot with out actually explaining anything.

Unless you're trying to Imply Lord of the Rings doesnt have competent writing
 
From Wikipedia:

A soft magic system is vague and undefined, with any existing rules or limitations of said magic system never being fully explained. It creates a sense of awe and deepens the fantastical setting.

  • The focus of these types of stories is not usually on the magic itself and the main character usually isn't a magic user.
  • The main conflict is not solved by magic; instead, it's solved by valuable lessons the main character learns throughout the course of the story.
  • Often when magic is used to solve a problem, it will actually make the problem worse.
  • In these types of stories, the reader is never certain of the dangers and wonders that the characters will encounter and the characters themselves never truly know what can and can't happen.
With the current Star Wars canon, established rules/limitations are ignored.
 
> But when you have chosen ones and skywalker and Palpatine children being strong because their parents were strong, I don't see where "belief" comes into that power system any more significantly than it does passing my math test

That's because the Prequels are Contradiobnary to the portrayal of the Force in the Original Trilogy and is one of the main reasons why it was Heavily criticized, the introduction of Midicholrians functionally hurts the mysticism and attempts to turn a soft magic system into a hard one without actually expanding the necessary details to make it work, it recontextualizes Luke in the OT from being an everyday person who became a somebody because of his ideals and beliefs to someone who was given all the advantages in life because of his bloodline and was merely a tool to redeem his father, there was an attempt to rectify this in the ST by making Rey a nobody but people had a hate boner for their "Muh Lore" they changed it again.


The PT functionally does not flow well with the OT despite the Nostalgia the former has gotten over the years, which brings me to my next point, if you're going to use the PT to recontextualize the OT in an argument then you can use the ST to recontextualize the PT and the OT which would functionally make any point you have moot, so either argue from the basis or don't.
 
It's one thing to go from having little to no explanantions given in the OT to having explanations in the PT and Clone Wars, but you can't suddenly break those explanations to try and get the mysticism back in the ST without retconning prior explanations.

You can go from Soft to Hard Magic, but not Hard to Soft Magic in a series without causing contradictions.

As we said before consistancy is key. Lord of the Rings is consistantly a Soft Magic System.

Could one only watch the OT and the ST to have a consistant magic system? Maybe.

Here's a video that better describes the use of both systems in literature:

MAGIC in fantasy, soft magic vs hard magic FANTASY RE-ARMED
MAGIC in fantasy, soft magic vs hard magic FANTASY RE-ARMED

"Your ability to resolve plot in a satisfactorily manner with magic is directly proportional to how well the audience understands that magic system."
 
> It's one thing to go from having little to no explanantions given in the OT to having explanations in the PT and Clone Wars

It had an explanation, it's not the PT giving us more information it's contradicting what we know, this also completely misses my argument of saying the PT sets up a hard magic system and fails at, the reason is because the force is consistently used in a soft way during the Prequels which is contradicted by the attempt of making it hard.

Yes, I Watched Shadiversity, His wrong this video was made in response to someone calling him out on Twitter which is why he consistently says "what I think it means" when prefacing any argument he makes.

No one cares about his Interpretation of what it means, we care about it actual definition.

I suggest actually reading up on Brandon Sandersons work, the person who created the terms for both soft and hard Magic

 
As I said, the OT had some explanation of the Force, but not a lot. What are some of the contradictions about the Force that stood out to you when the PT came out?

I simply showed the Shadiversity video because I thought it elaborated on Magic Systems well in a simplified manner,

In any case Magic systems are on a spectrum of Absolute Soft Magic and Absolute Hard Magic.
 
Yes you can have a hybrid and one could argue that Star Wars leans to Hybrid thanks to the PT, but the idea there are these hard rules that star wars needs to follow.


"Your ability to resolve plot in a satisfactorily manner with magic is directly proportional to how well the audience understands that magic system."


This in Relation to a Hard Magic System, a Soft magic system is used to for emotional or character growth or to simply awe the watcher or reader, they are not there to logically solve problems they are their raise and solve abstract ones.
The OT gives us an explanation.

" Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.... A Jedi can feel the force flowing through him."

" Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes."

" size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship. "

When Luke is unable to comprehend Yoda's X wing lifting feat the latter responds with "that is why you fail"
The Idea in the context of the narrative here is to highlight Luke's weakness of Self Doubt and to highlight what can be achieved with belief in one's self because your biggest enemy is yourself, it's Spiritual and the idea is conveyed through the X wing being lifted, anyone can be a Jedi or a Hero if you Believe in yourself this is Narrative expressing its theme of overcoming self-doubt to improve yourself as a person and that's the point, we tell stories to illustrate Ideas and Themes just like language, Lore should always be in service of the Narrative, not the other way around and any writer worth it's salt will tell you that.


The argument that Belief could lead to people blowing up planets completely misses the point of the scene, it's a plot device used to further the character arcs, which is good writing.
There's a very good reason why outside of Shonen battle manga, training arcs are generally poorly received. there's no character there are no stakes, it tells us nothing about the character outside of their drive to be stronger which is just a bland as the hero being good because he is the hero.


The Prequels contradict this message by the Introduction of Midicholrians
how many midiclorians you have affects your ability to communicate with the force. That's why they did mediclorian tests to determine if someone had enough to be a Jedi basically. Anakin's midichlorians were "off the charts" and "higher than master yodas", meaning eventually (had he not been chopped up and cyborg'd) he would have far supassed everyones abilities (including yoda and sidious) once he was more trained.


The amount of midichlorians you have determines your force floor and force ceiling. Someone with twice as many midichlorians can tap into the force twice as easily, and twice as much force. Anakin was literally the only human who could pod race (because of his absurdly high midichlorian count and thus incase force connection), despite there being other more trained and more experienced jedi pilots.
now the idea of belief is thrown outside the window, it retroactively makes Yoda a Liar, no matter how much you believe you won't be a good Jedi if you dont have the right amount of Pseudo force bacteria, you could argue that maybe the PT were wrong as is the idea but it's never brought up again to address it's faults in the OT, meaning that the intent was never for it to be wrong.


In fact because of the reaction to Midicholrians and it's attempt to reconcile with he OT we have a convoluted system of their being the Living Force and the Cosmic force.
The PT description and idea of the Force is the Antithesis of what the OT stood for.


Imagine telling a child who lost a limb or is disabled they can't be as good of a Jedi as their peers or imagine telling a religious person that their faith doesn't matter, it's the number of bacteria in their blood that determines if they can Prey or not.


And any rebuttal that Involves "well it's a reflection of real life, people are born disabled or with advantages ect ect"
then good luck finding a good argument for any of your issues with Star Wars that contradicts the fantasy trope

Oh you think they ruined Anakin's Prophecy of the Chosen one? oh well in real life nothing lasts forever and evil will always return.


this entire text isnt specifcally towards you, Im just talking in general why it doesnt work.
 
Weren't the Midichlorians meant to show why some people are Force sentitive and others are not in the OT and the PT? Going over the prequel scripts, Midichlorians only relate to force sensitivity, not potential power. Life creates the Force. Midichlorians are the part in all life.
 
> Midichlorians only relate to force sensitivity, not potential power.

they are the same thing, which is why Anakin was the chosen one and would be the most powerful if he didnt lose on Mustafar.

the amount of Midicholrians determines your potential and your Potential determines your ceiling of power.

I adressed this in the text above.
 
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