Star Wars Cosmology Revision (Part 1 of 4: Legends Cosmology Overview)

[StoneKillerz12]

The other two matters of this proposal I would like to comment on are DE Sidious and The Ones.

I disagree that Sidious’ Force Storms should constitue Universal AP. While they do indeed tear at the seams of space itself, this is an effect of the Hyperspace Wormhole literally making a hole in space, not literally being able to destroy all space in a time efficient manner.

To qualify for 3-A you need to demonstrate an equivalent amount of power as being able to generate an omnidirectional explosion that destroys everything in a space at least equal to the Observable Universe. Sidious definitely can’t do that. Maybe if he had infinite time he could slowly guide Force Storms to eat everything, but for continuous effects the standard time assumption is a single second for calculating AP. Practically speaking he could ravage the surface of worlds with his storms in such time as an actual attack (which mimics his usage of his Storms against fleets), but nothing more than that. It would take him an impractical amount of time to even eat a moon, let alone the universe.

Thus I would maintain he should be listed as High 6-A: Multi-Continent level. This would match up with the destructive feats of other top tier Force users like Darth Vitiate and Darth Nihilus.

As for who scales to this, I agree with the listing of Vitiate, but I’m skeptical of the others. I guess you can include DE Luke if you add a key for his Force Harmony amp, but otherwise he was no match for Sidious. Similarly the Hero of Tython and Revan are more likely to get one-shot by Vitiate rather than scale to his full power.


I have two issues with this section of the proposal:
1) I believe the Ones’ scaling to the Force (and thus to Hyperspace) should constitute Environmental Destruction rather than raw AP scalable to their telekinesis.
2) FOTJ Abeloth and Luke should not scale to this.

Firstly, while I accept the logic of the Ones and Prime Abeloth affecting the entirety of the Force to very real consequence throughout the universe, I think there are good reasons to believe they cannot wield power on this scale in a direct clash of telekinesis.

For instance, Abeloth was imprisoned in the Maw constructed and maintained by Centerpoint Station (and later Sinkhole Station for its maintenance). The Maw was a collection of dozens of black holes whose gravitational pull combined with Centerpoint Station could keep Abeloth imprisoned (except in the few moments across thousands of years where there was sufficient chaos and war in the galaxy to amp Abeloth sufficiently to slip out, yet even in these cases she couldn’t wreck the stations).

This setup was described as a prison that could “hold beings of the architects’ power” indicating an inherent relativity between the Ones, Abeloth, and this prison. The prison itself shouldn’t be beyond Multi-Solar System level (with Centerpoint Station being capable of destroying Star Systems and the gravity of dozens of black holes being on a similar scale, but neither should be capable of reaching Galaxy level or beyond).

While some have suggested this might be because the black holes were nerfing Abeloth’s ability to use the Force so drastically and so suddenly that it might still serve as an effective prison despite the disparity in power to someone who actually has Low Complex Multiversal telekinesis, this seems doubtful as the Sith and Jedi that went to fight Abeloth inside the Maw never reported or seem to have felt or been affected to any significant degree, with even children who stayed near the black holes for years on end only suffering mild effects. It would be strange for a prison to be described as being able to contain beings of the Architects’ power actually needing at least decades of forced entrapment by outside forces to actually serve its purpose and live up to its hype, especially considering the Twins are never described as needing to supervise Abeloth for decades or more to actually keep her in her prison before she grew weak enough from the black holes to be properly contained.

Thus I believe the Ones and Prime Abeloth should all be listed as: 4-A; Low 1-C, possibly 1-C with Environmental Destruction

Secondly, Abeloth by FOTJ is far weaker than Abeloth in her prime. Abeloth regales to Sarasu Taalon after he becomes an entity like her that they need to feed on life energies to actually sustain themselves, else they grow weaker, with Sarasu Taalon especially growing astronomically weaker in a very short time without feeding, going all the way from someone who can overpower Luke Skywalker all the way down to someone who can be contended with by Ben Skywalker. Abeloth on the other hand went thousands of years in a row alone without feeding on anyone:





Thus the first thing she does when she gets free is to try to consume the life energies of Dylon Stad:



And when she gets damaged in her first fight with Luke and the Lost Tribe of the Sith army, she returns to Dyon to try and feed again:



It is also noted that the dozens of black holes she has been trapped by for a hundred thousand years weakens Force users:

To give a bit of context for how weak she has grown in all that time, the Killiks recount that in one of her previous breakouts she had grown strong enough to possess the biospheres of at least three entire planets as avatars:



By comparison, at the end of FOTJ she can only manage 3 human sized avatars. This also lines up with her best feats in FOTJ (which include for example causing a Force Flash that gets mistaken for a Solar Flare, and being able to cause lava flows on Coruscant with minimal effort) which would match her being a step above, but still relative to the historical top tier mortal Force users at around Multi-Continent level, as opposed to to star system busting powers of her prime.

So FOTJ Abeloth (and Luke by comparison) shouldn’t scale anywhere near the Ones or Abeloth in her prime.

Also, what are you talking about with High 6-A? We have Nihilus at 5-B and Sidious, Vitiate, and others at 4-B and Luke at 4-A rn.

 

[Epyriel]

Hm, so how do you feel about Low 1-A, 1-A, High 1-A+, and 0 for the rest of the verse FRA?

For Legends: The Beyond Shadows part seems plausible, but the rest relies heavily on Supernatural Encounters. Whether or not the Force can still scale to such heights without SE I’m not sure, and will for now remain neutral as I do some reading up.

For Supernatural Encounters: Seems plausible for tiering these matters as its own verse separately, I will differ to Ultima for the high tiers.

 

[Epyriel]

Also, what are you talking about with High 6-A? We have Nihilus at 5-B and Sidious, Vitiate, and others at 4-B and Luke at 4-A rn.

As far as I’m aware ByAsura was already planning on nuking those ratings in his own revision plans, and I personally heavily disagree with all of it.

Pretty much all of it is based on either scaling to characters they shouldn’t scale to (like Luke and Krayt scaling to Prime Abeloth despite only fighting FOTJ Abeloth, or Sidious supposedly scaling over Wutzek for no apparent reason), scaling to feats that were only accomplished while heavily amped (like Naga Sadow and Aleema Keto causing supernovas with an extensive setup of Sith Magic Crystals, or Jerec being amped by the Valley of the Jedi), or feats that aren’t feats at all (like Yarael Poof defusing a planetary bomb being confused for overpowering a planetary bomb’s explosion’s energy, or Kyp Durron and Luke Skywalker moving the gravitic anomalies of dovin basals being confused as being equivalent to real black holes when they can be destroyed by mere proton torpedoes, or TPM Sidious describing the gravitas of killing his master as an event of galactic importance in a flowery metaphor being confused for him literally shaking stars when the same scene is described at the end of the book without such flair and without even the droid in the room being ruffled).

 

[StoneKillerz12]

As far as I’m aware ByAsura was already planning on nuking those ratings in his own revision plans, and I personally heavily disagree with all of it.

Pretty much all of it is based on either scaling to characters they shouldn’t scale to (like Luke and Krayt scaling to Prime Abeloth despite only fighting FOTJ Abeloth, or Sidious supposedly scaling over Wutzek for no apparent reason), scaling to feats that were only accomplished while heavily amped (like Naga Sadow and Aleema Keto causing supernovas with an extensive setup of Sith Magic Crystals, or Jerec being amped by the Valley of the Jedi), or feats that aren’t feats at all (like Yarael Poof defusing a planetary bomb being confused for overpowering a planetary bomb’s explosion’s energy, or Kyp Durron and Luke Skywalker moving the gravitic anomalies of dovin basals being confused as being equivalent to real black holes when they can be destroyed by mere proton torpedoes, or TPM Sidious describing the gravitas of killing his master as an event of galactic importance in a flowery metaphor being confused for him literally shaking stars when the same scene is described at the end of the book without such flair and without even the droid in the room being ruffled).

@Guruguru69 What do you think of all of this?

 

[Epyriel]

I get Luke, but why the other three?

Wait do you have the source for that?

I disagree with Revan and the HOT scaling to DE Sidious, although for Vitiate Luke directly contrasts Exar Kun’s spirit to DE Sidious and places him on a similar pedestal:

There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

-Specter of the Past

This is despite Exar Kun being somewhat weaker as a spirit compared to his prime (thanks to his power being sealed away by the Wall of Light, with Sith Spirits in general growing weaker after death, as shown by examples like Aloysius Kallig and Marka Ragnos).

Meanwhile by SWTOR Darth Vitiate is described as the most powerful Force user in history, placing him above Exar Kun’s prime:

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.

- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

"Today WE defeated the most evil and destructive being in history."

-Satele Shan, Star Wars: The Old Republic

 

[Cyberblader90]

Not sure if this changes the issues provided earlier in regards to the canonosity of supernatural encounters but I believe it's worth mentioning:

Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode VI Return of the Threadi

Alrighty, then, hopefully we haven’t actually overlooked anything that we miss or something.

vsbattles.com

 

[Epyriel]

Not sure if this changes the issues provided earlier in regards to the canonosity of supernatural encounters but I believe it's worth mentioning:

Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode VI Return of the Threadi

Alrighty, then, hopefully we haven’t actually overlooked anything that we miss or something.

vsbattles.com

Yeah the argument here also doesn’t work. The SkyeWalkers Novellas did get an official Lucasfilm release on StarWars.com, whereas Supernatural Encounters was nixed by publishing editors and only released on the author’s own personal website.

As before, licensing and copyright doesn’t guarantee you a place in the continuity, only an official release does:

[When asked about the status of Supernatural Encounters:] The material never came to me for input into the Holocron nor did it get an official release. Tons of material got approved that didn't become part of the continuity of the EU. […] Unless it appears in an official source, it's not something I intend to track.
-Leeland Chee over Twitter, https://archive.ph/bKRoM

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

I have a bad feeling about most of the Tier 1 stuff.