Star Wars Cosmology Revision (Part 1 of 4: Legends Cosmology Overview)

[StoneKillerz12]

The other two matters of this proposal I would like to comment on are DE Sidious and The Ones.

I disagree that Sidious’ Force Storms should constitue Universal AP. While they do indeed tear at the seams of space itself, this is an effect of the Hyperspace Wormhole literally making a hole in space, not literally being able to destroy all space in a time efficient manner.

To qualify for 3-A you need to demonstrate an equivalent amount of power as being able to generate an omnidirectional explosion that destroys everything in a space at least equal to the Observable Universe. Sidious definitely can’t do that. Maybe if he had infinite time he could slowly guide Force Storms to eat everything, but for continuous effects the standard time assumption is a single second for calculating AP. Practically speaking he could ravage the surface of worlds with his storms in such time as an actual attack (which mimics his usage of his Storms against fleets), but nothing more than that. It would take him an impractical amount of time to even eat a moon, let alone the universe.

Thus I would maintain he should be listed as High 6-A: Multi-Continent level. This would match up with the destructive feats of other top tier Force users like Darth Vitiate and Darth Nihilus.

As for who scales to this, I agree with the listing of Vitiate, but I’m skeptical of the others. I guess you can include DE Luke if you add a key for his Force Harmony amp, but otherwise he was no match for Sidious. Similarly the Hero of Tython and Revan are more likely to get one-shot by Vitiate rather than scale to his full power.


I have two issues with this section of the proposal:
1) I believe the Ones’ scaling to the Force (and thus to Hyperspace) should constitute Environmental Destruction rather than raw AP scalable to their telekinesis.
2) FOTJ Abeloth and Luke should not scale to this.

Firstly, while I accept the logic of the Ones and Prime Abeloth affecting the entirety of the Force to very real consequence throughout the universe, I think there are good reasons to believe they cannot wield power on this scale in a direct clash of telekinesis.

For instance, Abeloth was imprisoned in the Maw constructed and maintained by Centerpoint Station (and later Sinkhole Station for its maintenance). The Maw was a collection of dozens of black holes whose gravitational pull combined with Centerpoint Station could keep Abeloth imprisoned (except in the few moments across thousands of years where there was sufficient chaos and war in the galaxy to amp Abeloth sufficiently to slip out, yet even in these cases she couldn’t wreck the stations).

This setup was described as a prison that could “hold beings of the architects’ power” indicating an inherent relativity between the Ones, Abeloth, and this prison. The prison itself shouldn’t be beyond Multi-Solar System level (with Centerpoint Station being capable of destroying Star Systems and the gravity of dozens of black holes being on a similar scale, but neither should be capable of reaching Galaxy level or beyond).

While some have suggested this might be because the black holes were nerfing Abeloth’s ability to use the Force so drastically and so suddenly that it might still serve as an effective prison despite the disparity in power to someone who actually has Low Complex Multiversal telekinesis, this seems doubtful as the Sith and Jedi that went to fight Abeloth inside the Maw never reported or seem to have felt or been affected to any significant degree, with even children who stayed near the black holes for years on end only suffering mild effects. It would be strange for a prison to be described as being able to contain beings of the Architects’ power actually needing at least decades of forced entrapment by outside forces to actually serve its purpose and live up to its hype, especially considering the Twins are never described as needing to supervise Abeloth for decades or more to actually keep her in her prison before she grew weak enough from the black holes to be properly contained.

Thus I believe the Ones and Prime Abeloth should all be listed as: 4-A; Low 1-C, possibly 1-C with Environmental Destruction

Secondly, Abeloth by FOTJ is far weaker than Abeloth in her prime. Abeloth regales to Sarasu Taalon after he becomes an entity like her that they need to feed on life energies to actually sustain themselves, else they grow weaker, with Sarasu Taalon especially growing astronomically weaker in a very short time without feeding, going all the way from someone who can overpower Luke Skywalker all the way down to someone who can be contended with by Ben Skywalker. Abeloth on the other hand went thousands of years in a row alone without feeding on anyone:





Thus the first thing she does when she gets free is to try to consume the life energies of Dylon Stad:



And when she gets damaged in her first fight with Luke and the Lost Tribe of the Sith army, she returns to Dyon to try and feed again:



It is also noted that the dozens of black holes she has been trapped by for a hundred thousand years weakens Force users:

To give a bit of context for how weak she has grown in all that time, the Killiks recount that in one of her previous breakouts she had grown strong enough to possess the biospheres of at least three entire planets as avatars:



By comparison, at the end of FOTJ she can only manage 3 human sized avatars. This also lines up with her best feats in FOTJ (which include for example causing a Force Flash that gets mistaken for a Solar Flare, and being able to cause lava flows on Coruscant with minimal effort) which would match her being a step above, but still relative to the historical top tier mortal Force users at around Multi-Continent level, as opposed to to star system busting powers of her prime.

So FOTJ Abeloth (and Luke by comparison) shouldn’t scale anywhere near the Ones or Abeloth in her prime.

Also, what are you talking about with High 6-A? We have Nihilus at 5-B and Sidious, Vitiate, and others at 4-B and Luke at 4-A rn.

 

[Epyriel]

Hm, so how do you feel about Low 1-A, 1-A, High 1-A+, and 0 for the rest of the verse FRA?

For Legends: The Beyond Shadows part seems plausible, but the rest relies heavily on Supernatural Encounters. Whether or not the Force can still scale to such heights without SE I’m not sure, and will for now remain neutral as I do some reading up.

For Supernatural Encounters: Seems plausible for tiering these matters as its own verse separately, I will differ to Ultima for the high tiers.

 

[Epyriel]

Also, what are you talking about with High 6-A? We have Nihilus at 5-B and Sidious, Vitiate, and others at 4-B and Luke at 4-A rn.

As far as I’m aware ByAsura was already planning on nuking those ratings in his own revision plans, and I personally heavily disagree with all of it.

Pretty much all of it is based on either scaling to characters they shouldn’t scale to (like Luke and Krayt scaling to Prime Abeloth despite only fighting FOTJ Abeloth, or Sidious supposedly scaling over Wutzek for no apparent reason), scaling to feats that were only accomplished while heavily amped (like Naga Sadow and Aleema Keto causing supernovas with an extensive setup of Sith Magic Crystals, or Jerec being amped by the Valley of the Jedi), or feats that aren’t feats at all (like Yarael Poof defusing a planetary bomb being confused for overpowering a planetary bomb’s explosion’s energy, or Kyp Durron and Luke Skywalker moving the gravitic anomalies of dovin basals being confused as being equivalent to real black holes when they can be destroyed by mere proton torpedoes, or TPM Sidious describing the gravitas of killing his master as an event of galactic importance in a flowery metaphor being confused for him literally shaking stars when the same scene is described at the end of the book without such flair and without even the droid in the room being ruffled).

 

[StoneKillerz12]

As far as I’m aware ByAsura was already planning on nuking those ratings in his own revision plans, and I personally heavily disagree with all of it.

Pretty much all of it is based on either scaling to characters they shouldn’t scale to (like Luke and Krayt scaling to Prime Abeloth despite only fighting FOTJ Abeloth, or Sidious supposedly scaling over Wutzek for no apparent reason), scaling to feats that were only accomplished while heavily amped (like Naga Sadow and Aleema Keto causing supernovas with an extensive setup of Sith Magic Crystals, or Jerec being amped by the Valley of the Jedi), or feats that aren’t feats at all (like Yarael Poof defusing a planetary bomb being confused for overpowering a planetary bomb’s explosion’s energy, or Kyp Durron and Luke Skywalker moving the gravitic anomalies of dovin basals being confused as being equivalent to real black holes when they can be destroyed by mere proton torpedoes, or TPM Sidious describing the gravitas of killing his master as an event of galactic importance in a flowery metaphor being confused for him literally shaking stars when the same scene is described at the end of the book without such flair and without even the droid in the room being ruffled).

@Guruguru69 What do you think of all of this?

 

[Epyriel]

I get Luke, but why the other three?

Wait do you have the source for that?

I disagree with Revan and the HOT scaling to DE Sidious, although for Vitiate Luke directly contrasts Exar Kun’s spirit to DE Sidious and places him on a similar pedestal:

There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

-Specter of the Past

This is despite Exar Kun being somewhat weaker as a spirit compared to his prime (thanks to his power being sealed away by the Wall of Light, with Sith Spirits in general growing weaker after death, as shown by examples like Aloysius Kallig and Marka Ragnos).

Meanwhile by SWTOR Darth Vitiate is described as the most powerful Force user in history, placing him above Exar Kun’s prime:

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.

- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

"Today WE defeated the most evil and destructive being in history."

-Satele Shan, Star Wars: The Old Republic

 

[Cyberblader90]

Not sure if this changes the issues provided earlier in regards to the canonosity of supernatural encounters but I believe it's worth mentioning:

Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode VI Return of the Threadi

Alrighty, then, hopefully we haven’t actually overlooked anything that we miss or something.

vsbattles.com

 

[Epyriel]

Not sure if this changes the issues provided earlier in regards to the canonosity of supernatural encounters but I believe it's worth mentioning:

Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode VI Return of the Threadi

Alrighty, then, hopefully we haven’t actually overlooked anything that we miss or something.

vsbattles.com

Yeah the argument here also doesn’t work. The SkyeWalkers Novellas did get an official Lucasfilm release on StarWars.com, whereas Supernatural Encounters was nixed by publishing editors and only released on the author’s own personal website.

As before, licensing and copyright doesn’t guarantee you a place in the continuity, only an official release does:

[When asked about the status of Supernatural Encounters:] The material never came to me for input into the Holocron nor did it get an official release. Tons of material got approved that didn't become part of the continuity of the EU. […] Unless it appears in an official source, it's not something I intend to track.
-Leeland Chee over Twitter, https://archive.ph/bKRoM

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

I have a bad feeling about most of the Tier 1 stuff.

 

[Kenny Mccormick 0v0]

Also, what are you talking about with High 6-A? We have Nihilus at 5-B and Sidious, Vitiate, and others at 4-B and Luke at 4-A rn.

We have low 4-C feat from old republic but I don't know if this feat can be use or not.

Star Wars: The Energy required to destroy Iokath

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Epyriel]

We have low 4-C feat from old republic but I don't know if this feat can be use or not.

Star Wars: The Energy required to destroy Iokath

vsbattles.fandom.com

We can add a self destruct key for Tyth, but no one would really scale to it except him. As his regular attacks and durability as contended with by the protagonists aren’t anywhere near the same scale. Although as it stands none of the Machine Gods even have profiles.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I figured that calculation was going to be shared.

In truth this CRT was never planned and was posted by someone I don't specifically know borrowing heavily off of the G1 I worked on. ByAsura has a rather lengthy sandbox going over what would have been an eventual CRT going over the cosmology and a lot more details for Legends. We also have some sandboxes for other details like force abilities and vehicles and weapons.

 

[LordVader30]

For Legends: The Beyond Shadows part seems plausible, but the rest relies heavily on Supernatural Encounters. Whether or not the Force can still scale to such heights without SE I’m not sure, and will for now remain neutral as I do some reading up.

For Supernatural Encounters: Seems plausible for tiering these matters as its own verse separately, I will differ to Ultima for the high tiers.

Force can already be 0 without SE SE is an obstacle for Force to be 0 and yes I agree that SE is independent from Legends but again we should mention that it is Star Wars content

 

[Robo432343]

force has anti feat for tier 0

 

[LordVader30]

force has anti feat for tier 0

Which

 

[god_cat]

Cosmology Overview​

Before going into this, I would like to note that most of this should be explained in much more detail in a dedicated cosmology blog. I don't, however, have the time necessary to do this and much of it contains irrelevant filler to the topics at hand. Instead, for the moment at least, I will be jotting the most important pieces of evidence to place certain characters/aspects of the cosmology to justify the tiers they should be placed at. There is quite a few parts of the cosmology that are being left out here, but ultimately have no significance to the most relevant parts of the cosmology and it's scaling. So most of this is going to be a summarized version of where each section of the cosmology scales, partially based on this CRT. Without further ado, here are my proposals.

Realspace​

Hyperspace​

Otherspace​

Darth Sidious (Dark Empire)​

This should scale to DE Luke, Novel Revan & SoR Revan, Hero of Tython, and Vitiate as well.

The Ones/The Celestials​

The Father, The Son, The Daughter, Abeloth, and Fate of The Jedi (Grandmaster) Luke should all scale to this.

Plane of Erets/The Primary World​

Beyond Shadows​

The Force​

The Father of Lights​

I should also note there is other beings in the more "out there" parts of Legends' cosmology, such as The Father of Shadows and/or "The Left Handed God" (ambiguous whether or not they are the same entity. Both of them are still bound within The Force and thus act within The Father of Lights' "dream" (A.K.A The Force), but would likely scale to the 1-A stuff at minimum).

Canonicity of Supernatural Encounters​

Finally, there is one more thing that should be addressed urgently. If you've been looking at most of the scans here in regards to The Force and The Father of Lights, you'll notice that many of the scans are cited to come from a recently published in 2022 Legends novel; Supernatural Encounters. There has been quite a lot of debate and controversy regarding whether or not these novels should be used or not, as they debatably do not fit into either Disney Canon or Legends. However, the Supernatural Encounters novel, in short, is no much less a source for lore in the Star Wars EU/Legends continuity then any other novel in Legends tackling the cosmic side of Star Wars.

First off, Supernatural Encounters is officially licensed. It is available for purchase on Amazon as a very clearly official source of Star Wars lore like many other Legends novels. Nothing about this says "fan-fiction of Star Wars not officially associated with Lucasfilm and/or Disney", and it would be certainly be very illegal to publish such a work for monetary gain. Disney would be very quick to take something like that down, as we know Disney is very very touchy and sensitive about their works, ESPECIALLY Star Wars.

Not only this, but Supernatural Encounters is explicitly an EU novel. Therefore, it very much is intended to be a canon story in regards to Star Wars' expanded universe originally created by George Lucas, and NOT un-canon towards either continuity. There is a problem that should be noted regarding this, though. Supernatural Encounters was never officially put on the Legends timeline under the official website documenting this; the Holocron. There is an explanation for this, though. For starters, one of the main reasons Supernatural Encounters never underwent editorial review is due in part to Disney's purchase of Lucasfilms, which caused the novella's existence to become "limbo" essentially. Because Lucasfilms was apparently not allowed to touch anything Legends related during the transition between the EU canonicity and the Disney canonicity's integration, Supernatural Encounters' publication was tremendously delayed. It was originally meant to be published from apparently as far back as 2002, was officially licensed, overviewed by Lucasfilms, and was by all means fully planned to be added to the expanded universe.

Much more context by the author and his colleagues themselves answer why this novel wasn't released sooner and where it places in EU can be found here. Please visit this page for much more concrete proof solidifying SNE as canon Legends material.

Finally, Supernatural Encounters' publisher, Joe Bongiorno, has been involved with several official pieces of Legends material, and was even given the role of authoring a cohesive timeline for legends canon. And he himself considers Supernatural Encounters as a part of that canon. Furthermore, several other widely recognized novels in Legends have implemented Joe's ideas in Supernatural Encounters, such as in the Book of the Sith, something confirmed by it's creator.

While it is still somewhat contentious, Supernatural Encounters overall does not have any contradictions for fitting into Star Wars Legends' timeline any more than any other Legends Novel talking about the unseen lore of the franchise. Everything here seems to suggest Supernatural Encounters has a place in the Legends timeline, and is only not more widely recognized as such due to it's complicated publishing history, which would very much have allowed it to fit in. The canonicity issues are not an issue of story contradictions or peers disapproving of the novella's ideas, but rather the difficult transition between EU and Disney's Canon. Overall, Supernatural Encounters being used to scale the cosmic side of Star Wars' cosmology falls entirely in line with the premise of the Supernatural Encounters novels, as well as again, not at all contradicting previously established cosmic lore proposed in other EU stories, some directly based off of the ideas of Joe Bongiorno in Supernatural Encounters.

The next part will be discussing the more wider applications of this cosmology for the characters in Legends and who or who doesn't scale, as well as the discussion of the addition of profiles for The Father of Lights and The Force itself, both of whom will be granted the tiers established here, that being 0 and High 1-A+, respectively. Part 3 and 4 will focus on the Disney Canon side of Star Wars' cosmology.

Agree:

Disagree:

If I remember correctly, the father of lights and the cosmic force were associated as the same, so it is absurd to distinguish between the father of lights and the force. At the same time, all the interpretations about the unifying force are just a smaller aspect of it or lies, so all the counter-arguments for the force fall apart in my opinion.

 

[god_cat]

Cosmology Overview​

Before going into this, I would like to note that most of this should be explained in much more detail in a dedicated cosmology blog. I don't, however, have the time necessary to do this and much of it contains irrelevant filler to the topics at hand. Instead, for the moment at least, I will be jotting the most important pieces of evidence to place certain characters/aspects of the cosmology to justify the tiers they should be placed at. There is quite a few parts of the cosmology that are being left out here, but ultimately have no significance to the most relevant parts of the cosmology and it's scaling. So most of this is going to be a summarized version of where each section of the cosmology scales, partially based on this CRT. Without further ado, here are my proposals.

Realspace​

Hyperspace​

Otherspace​

Darth Sidious (Dark Empire)​

This should scale to DE Luke, Novel Revan & SoR Revan, Hero of Tython, and Vitiate as well.

The Ones/The Celestials​

The Father, The Son, The Daughter, Abeloth, and Fate of The Jedi (Grandmaster) Luke should all scale to this.

Plane of Erets/The Primary World​

Beyond Shadows​

The Force​

The Father of Lights​

I should also note there is other beings in the more "out there" parts of Legends' cosmology, such as The Father of Shadows and/or "The Left Handed God" (ambiguous whether or not they are the same entity. Both of them are still bound within The Force and thus act within The Father of Lights' "dream" (A.K.A The Force), but would likely scale to the 1-A stuff at minimum).

Canonicity of Supernatural Encounters​

Finally, there is one more thing that should be addressed urgently. If you've been looking at most of the scans here in regards to The Force and The Father of Lights, you'll notice that many of the scans are cited to come from a recently published in 2022 Legends novel; Supernatural Encounters. There has been quite a lot of debate and controversy regarding whether or not these novels should be used or not, as they debatably do not fit into either Disney Canon or Legends. However, the Supernatural Encounters novel, in short, is no much less a source for lore in the Star Wars EU/Legends continuity then any other novel in Legends tackling the cosmic side of Star Wars.

First off, Supernatural Encounters is officially licensed. It is available for purchase on Amazon as a very clearly official source of Star Wars lore like many other Legends novels. Nothing about this says "fan-fiction of Star Wars not officially associated with Lucasfilm and/or Disney", and it would be certainly be very illegal to publish such a work for monetary gain. Disney would be very quick to take something like that down, as we know Disney is very very touchy and sensitive about their works, ESPECIALLY Star Wars.

Not only this, but Supernatural Encounters is explicitly an EU novel. Therefore, it very much is intended to be a canon story in regards to Star Wars' expanded universe originally created by George Lucas, and NOT un-canon towards either continuity. There is a problem that should be noted regarding this, though. Supernatural Encounters was never officially put on the Legends timeline under the official website documenting this; the Holocron. There is an explanation for this, though. For starters, one of the main reasons Supernatural Encounters never underwent editorial review is due in part to Disney's purchase of Lucasfilms, which caused the novella's existence to become "limbo" essentially. Because Lucasfilms was apparently not allowed to touch anything Legends related during the transition between the EU canonicity and the Disney canonicity's integration, Supernatural Encounters' publication was tremendously delayed. It was originally meant to be published from apparently as far back as 2002, was officially licensed, overviewed by Lucasfilms, and was by all means fully planned to be added to the expanded universe.

Much more context by the author and his colleagues themselves answer why this novel wasn't released sooner and where it places in EU can be found here. Please visit this page for much more concrete proof solidifying SNE as canon Legends material.

Finally, Supernatural Encounters' publisher, Joe Bongiorno, has been involved with several official pieces of Legends material, and was even given the role of authoring a cohesive timeline for legends canon. And he himself considers Supernatural Encounters as a part of that canon. Furthermore, several other widely recognized novels in Legends have implemented Joe's ideas in Supernatural Encounters, such as in the Book of the Sith, something confirmed by it's creator.

While it is still somewhat contentious, Supernatural Encounters overall does not have any contradictions for fitting into Star Wars Legends' timeline any more than any other Legends Novel talking about the unseen lore of the franchise. Everything here seems to suggest Supernatural Encounters has a place in the Legends timeline, and is only not more widely recognized as such due to it's complicated publishing history, which would very much have allowed it to fit in. The canonicity issues are not an issue of story contradictions or peers disapproving of the novella's ideas, but rather the difficult transition between EU and Disney's Canon. Overall, Supernatural Encounters being used to scale the cosmic side of Star Wars' cosmology falls entirely in line with the premise of the Supernatural Encounters novels, as well as again, not at all contradicting previously established cosmic lore proposed in other EU stories, some directly based off of the ideas of Joe Bongiorno in Supernatural Encounters.

The next part will be discussing the more wider applications of this cosmology for the characters in Legends and who or who doesn't scale, as well as the discussion of the addition of profiles for The Father of Lights and The Force itself, both of whom will be granted the tiers established here, that being 0 and High 1-A+, respectively. Part 3 and 4 will focus on the Disney Canon side of Star Wars' cosmology.

Agree:

Disagree:

and if I remember correctly, real space consists of 3 spatial and 1 temporal dimension.

 

[ByAsura]

Sorry to derail the thread.

As far as I’m aware ByAsura was already planning on nuking those ratings in his own revision plans

I'm no longer part of the revision. I've given up on Star Wars due to lack of interest and university/TAFE, so I have no idea what the plans are going forward.

The plans as they were last year are here, but they're outdated (some of the justifications/debunks are maybe even outright wrong) and there's new plans for ratings as high as Low 4-C to 4-B.

 

[Guruguru69]

@Guruguru69 What do you think of all of this?

Don't necessarily agree with most of it. But I don't see it as relevant for the CRT & some of the revisions are outdated; as stated by ByAsura.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Ratings look fine to me, all that needs to be settled is who scales to what.

 

[god_cat]

Cosmology Overview​

Before going into this, I would like to note that most of this should be explained in much more detail in a dedicated cosmology blog. I don't, however, have the time necessary to do this and much of it contains irrelevant filler to the topics at hand. Instead, for the moment at least, I will be jotting the most important pieces of evidence to place certain characters/aspects of the cosmology to justify the tiers they should be placed at. There is quite a few parts of the cosmology that are being left out here, but ultimately have no significance to the most relevant parts of the cosmology and it's scaling. So most of this is going to be a summarized version of where each section of the cosmology scales, partially based on this CRT. Without further ado, here are my proposals.

Realspace​

Hyperspace​

Otherspace​

Darth Sidious (Dark Empire)​

This should scale to DE Luke, Novel Revan & SoR Revan, Hero of Tython, and Vitiate as well.

The Ones/The Celestials​

The Father, The Son, The Daughter, Abeloth, and Fate of The Jedi (Grandmaster) Luke should all scale to this.

Plane of Erets/The Primary World​

Beyond Shadows​

The Force​

The Father of Lights​

I should also note there is other beings in the more "out there" parts of Legends' cosmology, such as The Father of Shadows and/or "The Left Handed God" (ambiguous whether or not they are the same entity. Both of them are still bound within The Force and thus act within The Father of Lights' "dream" (A.K.A The Force), but would likely scale to the 1-A stuff at minimum).

Canonicity of Supernatural Encounters​

Finally, there is one more thing that should be addressed urgently. If you've been looking at most of the scans here in regards to The Force and The Father of Lights, you'll notice that many of the scans are cited to come from a recently published in 2022 Legends novel; Supernatural Encounters. There has been quite a lot of debate and controversy regarding whether or not these novels should be used or not, as they debatably do not fit into either Disney Canon or Legends. However, the Supernatural Encounters novel, in short, is no much less a source for lore in the Star Wars EU/Legends continuity then any other novel in Legends tackling the cosmic side of Star Wars.

First off, Supernatural Encounters is officially licensed. It is available for purchase on Amazon as a very clearly official source of Star Wars lore like many other Legends novels. Nothing about this says "fan-fiction of Star Wars not officially associated with Lucasfilm and/or Disney", and it would be certainly be very illegal to publish such a work for monetary gain. Disney would be very quick to take something like that down, as we know Disney is very very touchy and sensitive about their works, ESPECIALLY Star Wars.

Not only this, but Supernatural Encounters is explicitly an EU novel. Therefore, it very much is intended to be a canon story in regards to Star Wars' expanded universe originally created by George Lucas, and NOT un-canon towards either continuity. There is a problem that should be noted regarding this, though. Supernatural Encounters was never officially put on the Legends timeline under the official website documenting this; the Holocron. There is an explanation for this, though. For starters, one of the main reasons Supernatural Encounters never underwent editorial review is due in part to Disney's purchase of Lucasfilms, which caused the novella's existence to become "limbo" essentially. Because Lucasfilms was apparently not allowed to touch anything Legends related during the transition between the EU canonicity and the Disney canonicity's integration, Supernatural Encounters' publication was tremendously delayed. It was originally meant to be published from apparently as far back as 2002, was officially licensed, overviewed by Lucasfilms, and was by all means fully planned to be added to the expanded universe.

Much more context by the author and his colleagues themselves answer why this novel wasn't released sooner and where it places in EU can be found here. Please visit this page for much more concrete proof solidifying SNE as canon Legends material.

Finally, Supernatural Encounters' publisher, Joe Bongiorno, has been involved with several official pieces of Legends material, and was even given the role of authoring a cohesive timeline for legends canon. And he himself considers Supernatural Encounters as a part of that canon. Furthermore, several other widely recognized novels in Legends have implemented Joe's ideas in Supernatural Encounters, such as in the Book of the Sith, something confirmed by it's creator.

While it is still somewhat contentious, Supernatural Encounters overall does not have any contradictions for fitting into Star Wars Legends' timeline any more than any other Legends Novel talking about the unseen lore of the franchise. Everything here seems to suggest Supernatural Encounters has a place in the Legends timeline, and is only not more widely recognized as such due to it's complicated publishing history, which would very much have allowed it to fit in. The canonicity issues are not an issue of story contradictions or peers disapproving of the novella's ideas, but rather the difficult transition between EU and Disney's Canon. Overall, Supernatural Encounters being used to scale the cosmic side of Star Wars' cosmology falls entirely in line with the premise of the Supernatural Encounters novels, as well as again, not at all contradicting previously established cosmic lore proposed in other EU stories, some directly based off of the ideas of Joe Bongiorno in Supernatural Encounters.

The next part will be discussing the more wider applications of this cosmology for the characters in Legends and who or who doesn't scale, as well as the discussion of the addition of profiles for The Father of Lights and The Force itself, both of whom will be granted the tiers established here, that being 0 and High 1-A+, respectively. Part 3 and 4 will focus on the Disney Canon side of Star Wars' cosmology.

Agree:

Disagree:

what about DE sidious scaling to where hyperspace will scale, after all, these were said to be extradimensional storms.

 

[Epyriel]

Sorry to derail the thread.

I'm no longer part of the revision. I've given up on Star Wars due to lack of interest and university/TAFE, so I have no idea what the plans are going forward.

Ah, sorry to hear that. Certainly makes sense to prioritize university, thanks for letting us know.

The plans as they were last year are here, but they're outdated (some of the justifications/debunks are maybe even outright wrong) and there's new plans for ratings as high as Low 4-C to 4-B.

There is some good stuff in the sandbox, although I disagree with scaling everyone to High 6-A, as the Ambria feat was more a matter of Thon utilizing a specialized binding technique rather than something I would scale to raw telekinesis. There are way too many anti-feats for even guys like Anakin to scale to this level.

Those high end ratings work for certain amped feats, but if any of them touch non-amped mortal characters it will seem as though more debunking shall need to be done in the future.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Vitiate Luke directly contrasts Exar Kun’s spirit to DE Sidious and places him on a similar pedestal

That quote reads to me "These two are darkside epicenters" rather than "They're comparable to each other". Especially considering the like 20 statements all saying Sidious blows everyone before him out of the water strength wise.

 

[Epyriel]

That quote reads to me "These two are darkside epicenters" rather than "They're comparable to each other".

Calling them both the “two greatest focal points of the dark side” definitely seems to me an indication of relatively. It would certainly match to their feats, with Exar Kun needing a gigantic army of Jedi to seal him away, while having statements above what is basically Novel Vitiate.

Especially considering the like 20 statements all saying Sidious blows everyone before him out of the water strength wise.

Pretty much all of those statements are about Prequels Sidious being the strongest (Banite) Sith. From an OOU perspective they pretty much all predate TOR anyways. None of them imply astronomically scaling above the ancients, and the idea it binds pre-ROT Sith can be debunked by scaling off a wide variety of characters, such as Vader thinking even Karness Muur’s spirit being powerful enough to overthrow post-ROTS Sidious despite being near the bottom of a several ancient scaling chains, while Mara compares mid-Novel Kueller to ANH Sidious despite Leia claiming Kueller was weaker than Exar Kun’s spirit. Not to mention the sheer disparity in scale of their feats.

 

[LordVader30]

Cosmology Overview​

Before going into this, I would like to note that most of this should be explained in much more detail in a dedicated cosmology blog. I don't, however, have the time necessary to do this and much of it contains irrelevant filler to the topics at hand. Instead, for the moment at least, I will be jotting the most important pieces of evidence to place certain characters/aspects of the cosmology to justify the tiers they should be placed at. There is quite a few parts of the cosmology that are being left out here, but ultimately have no significance to the most relevant parts of the cosmology and it's scaling. So most of this is going to be a summarized version of where each section of the cosmology scales, partially based on this CRT. Without further ado, here are my proposals.

Realspace​

Hyperspace​

Otherspace​

Darth Sidious (Dark Empire)​

This should scale to DE Luke, Novel Revan & SoR Revan, Hero of Tython, and Vitiate as well.

The Ones/The Celestials​

The Father, The Son, The Daughter, Abeloth, and Fate of The Jedi (Grandmaster) Luke should all scale to this.

Plane of Erets/The Primary World​

Beyond Shadows​

The Force​

The Father of Lights​

I should also note there is other beings in the more "out there" parts of Legends' cosmology, such as The Father of Shadows and/or "The Left Handed God" (ambiguous whether or not they are the same entity. Both of them are still bound within The Force and thus act within The Father of Lights' "dream" (A.K.A The Force), but would likely scale to the 1-A stuff at minimum).

Canonicity of Supernatural Encounters​

Finally, there is one more thing that should be addressed urgently. If you've been looking at most of the scans here in regards to The Force and The Father of Lights, you'll notice that many of the scans are cited to come from a recently published in 2022 Legends novel; Supernatural Encounters. There has been quite a lot of debate and controversy regarding whether or not these novels should be used or not, as they debatably do not fit into either Disney Canon or Legends. However, the Supernatural Encounters novel, in short, is no much less a source for lore in the Star Wars EU/Legends continuity then any other novel in Legends tackling the cosmic side of Star Wars.

First off, Supernatural Encounters is officially licensed. It is available for purchase on Amazon as a very clearly official source of Star Wars lore like many other Legends novels. Nothing about this says "fan-fiction of Star Wars not officially associated with Lucasfilm and/or Disney", and it would be certainly be very illegal to publish such a work for monetary gain. Disney would be very quick to take something like that down, as we know Disney is very very touchy and sensitive about their works, ESPECIALLY Star Wars.

Not only this, but Supernatural Encounters is explicitly an EU novel. Therefore, it very much is intended to be a canon story in regards to Star Wars' expanded universe originally created by George Lucas, and NOT un-canon towards either continuity. There is a problem that should be noted regarding this, though. Supernatural Encounters was never officially put on the Legends timeline under the official website documenting this; the Holocron. There is an explanation for this, though. For starters, one of the main reasons Supernatural Encounters never underwent editorial review is due in part to Disney's purchase of Lucasfilms, which caused the novella's existence to become "limbo" essentially. Because Lucasfilms was apparently not allowed to touch anything Legends related during the transition between the EU canonicity and the Disney canonicity's integration, Supernatural Encounters' publication was tremendously delayed. It was originally meant to be published from apparently as far back as 2002, was officially licensed, overviewed by Lucasfilms, and was by all means fully planned to be added to the expanded universe.

Much more context by the author and his colleagues themselves answer why this novel wasn't released sooner and where it places in EU can be found here. Please visit this page for much more concrete proof solidifying SNE as canon Legends material.

Finally, Supernatural Encounters' publisher, Joe Bongiorno, has been involved with several official pieces of Legends material, and was even given the role of authoring a cohesive timeline for legends canon. And he himself considers Supernatural Encounters as a part of that canon. Furthermore, several other widely recognized novels in Legends have implemented Joe's ideas in Supernatural Encounters, such as in the Book of the Sith, something confirmed by it's creator.

While it is still somewhat contentious, Supernatural Encounters overall does not have any contradictions for fitting into Star Wars Legends' timeline any more than any other Legends Novel talking about the unseen lore of the franchise. Everything here seems to suggest Supernatural Encounters has a place in the Legends timeline, and is only not more widely recognized as such due to it's complicated publishing history, which would very much have allowed it to fit in. The canonicity issues are not an issue of story contradictions or peers disapproving of the novella's ideas, but rather the difficult transition between EU and Disney's Canon. Overall, Supernatural Encounters being used to scale the cosmic side of Star Wars' cosmology falls entirely in line with the premise of the Supernatural Encounters novels, as well as again, not at all contradicting previously established cosmic lore proposed in other EU stories, some directly based off of the ideas of Joe Bongiorno in Supernatural Encounters.

The next part will be discussing the more wider applications of this cosmology for the characters in Legends and who or who doesn't scale, as well as the discussion of the addition of profiles for The Father of Lights and The Force itself, both of whom will be granted the tiers established here, that being 0 and High 1-A+, respectively. Part 3 and 4 will focus on the Disney Canon side of Star Wars' cosmology.

Agree:

Disagree:

He is mentioned that Supreme maker and Force are the same person ,so he is nonsense to keep them separatIte.

 

[Hellbeast]

Yeah I think SE should be separate for reasons listed above

I also don’t think we should scale Exar Kun’s Living self to Dark Empire Sidious, it makes no sense with the dozen statements for the latter’s superiority against one showing implying the opposite

 

[LordVader30]

What level will Full Oneness and Force Ghosts be at?

 

[Cyberblader90]

Oneness should be a different crt

 

[LordVader30]

Oneness should be a different crt

Alright

 

[Epyriel]

I also don’t think we should scale Exar Kun’s Living self to Dark Empire Sidious, it makes no sense with the dozen statements for the latter’s superiority against one showing implying the opposite

I should point out all those quotes come from ROTS Sidious not DE Sidious.

Far more likely that those refer to Rule of 2 Sith rather than someone who struggled to throw senate pods scaling over planet eaters.

 

[Hellbeast]

I should point out all those quotes come from ROTS Sidious not DE Sidious.

Even still, this is the same dude who has statements of being the ultimate Sith and the embodiment of the Dark Side, he’s clearly a cut above the rest

Far more likely that those refer to Rule of 2 Sith rather than someone who struggled to throw senate pods scaling over planet eaters.

I disagree, Bane alone was considered one of the strongest Sith (iirc) and the Rule of Two ensured each successive generation simply surpassed him outright.

That’s also ignoring stuff like even Maul having statements of being mightier then many of the Old Sith or Dooku being stronger then his Jedi self who was already one of the mightiest characters rhe order produced

There’s holes I grant you, no scale is bulletproof for such a large setting but it adds up more then the alternative

 

[Epyriel]

Even still, this is the same dude who has statements of being the ultimate Sith and the embodiment of the Dark Side, he’s clearly a cut above the rest

For DE Sidious sure, although a couple other Sith have comparable hype to that. But definitely not for ROTS Sidious.

I disagree, Bane alone was considered one of the strongest Sith (iirc) and the Rule of Two ensured each successive generation simply surpassed him outright.

Bane was impressive for his age, however Bane himself expressed how complacent the Sith of his age (from Kaan’s Brotherhood of Darkness) had become. One of his main advantages was the knowledge he learned from ancient holocrons.

Even 27 generations of the Rule of Two later, Darth Tenebrous was assassinated via a mere cave-in. Meanwhile his apprentice even after killing his master concedes inferiority to the likes of Naga Sadow, someone who was far weaker than Freedon Nadd (even while a century pre-prime) who was destroyed by Exar Kun a good while before he completed the ritual that would make him trivialize his past self:

Darth Bane << Darth Tenebrous ~ 67 BBY Darth Plagueis < Naga Sadow << Freedon Nadd < 3997 BBY Exar Kun << Pre-WOL Post-Ritual Exar Kun

That’s also ignoring stuff like even Maul having statements of being mightier then many of the Old Sith or Dooku being stronger then his Jedi self who was already one of the mightiest characters rhe order produced

There’s holes I grant you, no scale is bulletproof for such a large setting but it adds up more then the alternative

Maul only has statements for how the Sith are back and as strong as ever placing him at least on par with the top contenders of Kaan’s Brotherhood of Darkness (a noted low point of the Sith). Dooku’s hype is nice, but hardly unique. Much the same can be said for many characters scattered throughout the ages.

Another way to look at it is how even Karness Muur’s spirit is stated to be to Vader a “force unlike any he’s ever witnessed” to the point it makes him think Muur’s power could let him overthrow Post-ROTS Sidious, implying he is so far out of Vader’s frame of reference that he must at least be above KFV if not actually being able to compete with Sidious. Karness Muur however gets stacked at the bottom of several ancient scaling chains, for example:

Ajunta Pall was stated to be the strongest of the Sith Exiles, placing him above Muur’s prime. Meanwhile Ajunta Pall considered even a mere fragment of the Star Map to be blinding while considering the Star Forge to be certain doom, yet Darth Revan and Darth Malak would master both. Kreia would then state Meetra Surik to be her greatest disciple, placing them above Pre-KOTOR Darth Revan. Kreia also states that they are but children playing with toys compared to the prowess of old masters like Tulak Hord. Hord in turn is stated below Marka Ragnos, who is stated below Exar Kun, who is stated below Darth Vitiate. In summary:

Post-ROTS Sidious > KFV < Spirit Karness Muur < Living Karness Muur < Ajunta Pall < Pre-KOTOR Darth Revan < Meetra Surik ~ Kreia << Tulak Hord < Marka Ragnos < Exar Kun < SWTOR Darth Vitiate < Post-Ziost Darth Vitiate < EOO Darth Vitiate

Or similarly, Leia mentions Exar Kun’s spirit was more powerful than Kueller, with Kueller being compared to Pre-ANH Sidious by Mara, giving us:

ROTS Sidious << Pre-ANH Sidious ~ Kueller < Spirit Exar Kun < Pre-WOL Exar Kun < SWTOR Dwrth Vitiate < Post-Ziosr Darth Vitiate < EOO Darth Vitiate

The point I’m getting at is that we should not assume that ROTS Sidious’s supremacy quotes bind ancient Sith when they were more likely intended to be just another confirmation of the Rule of Two Sith’s scaling. Because the idea that even by ROTS Sidious can scale above ancient Sith who can raze continents despite not being astronomically above the rest of his era who regularly struggle with sub-City level feats can simply be debunked by far too many scalings chains (as well as absolutely any analysis of feats and anti-feats).

Or if you would prefer Leland Chee’s take to mine:

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I disagree, Bane alone was considered one of the strongest Sith (iirc) and the Rule of Two ensured each successive generation simply surpassed him outright.

I've seen some discussions that Plagueis imply all of the ancient sith were stronger than the Banite in some forums, and it wasn't until him that they finally surpassed that threshold.

Which, considering some statements of the sith spirits being considered threats for Vitiate's plans, seems to check out somewhat:

The Emperor knew the spirits of the ancient Sith Lords could be a threat to his power when he returned to the known galaxy a century later…

– Here (4:10)

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Ajunta Pall was stated to be the strongest of the Sith Exiles, placing him above Muur’s prime. Meanwhile Ajunta Pall considered even a mere fragment of the Star Map to be blinding while considering the Star Forge to be certain doom, yet Darth Revan and Darth Malak would master both. Kreia would then state Meetra Surik to be her greatest disciple, placing them above Pre-KOTOR Darth Revan. Kreia also states that they are but children playing with toys compared to the prowess of old masters like Tulak Hord. Hord in turn is stated below Marka Ragnos, who is stated below Exar Kun, who is stated below Darth Vitiate. In summary:

Post-ROTS Sidious > KFV < Spirit Karness Muur < Living Karness Muur < Ajunta Pall < Pre-KOTOR Darth Revan < Meetra Surik ~ Kreia << Tulak Hord < Marka Ragnos < Exar Kun < SWTOR Darth Vitiate < Post-Ziost Darth Vitiate < EOO Darth Vitiate

Kreia's Tulak Hord statement is about lightsaber fighting, due note.

That being said, Sadow is also stated to be the strongest of the Korriban sith, which would still provide a large chain. Specially when also taking in both Revan and Malak during KOTOR. Doubly so when Luke states it might take the might of his jedi order to stop a resurrected Marka Ragnos in Jedi Academy.

I'd personally disagree on KFV being below Muur tho. But that's just me.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Kreia's Tulak Hord statement is about lightsaber fighting, due note.

That being said, Sadow is also stated to be the strongest of the Korriban sith, which would still provide a large chain. Specially when also taking in both Revan and Malak during KOTOR. Doubly so when Luke states it might take the might of his jedi order to stop a resurrected Marka Ragnos in Jedi Academy.

I'd personally disagree on KFV being below Muur tho. But that's just me.

Not that familiar with KOTR, but we still have to iron out the cracks in the scaling that slip by

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Not that familiar with KOTR, but we still have to iron out the cracks in the scaling that slip by

Malak is stated as having power far greater than Exar Kun (all of these articles were overseen by Leland Chee), and Revan during KOTOR straight beats him even when he gets greatly empowered by the Star Forge and sustained through the life force of multiple jedi.

 

[Epyriel]

Malak is stated as having power far greater than Exar Kun (all of these articles were overseen by Leland Chee), and Revan during KOTOR straight beats him even when he gets greatly empowered by the Star Forge and sustained through the life force of multiple jedi.

I should point out that the explanation provided by the author of this quote was that only the Star Forge’s amp and its abilitiy to generate endless fleets is what made him stronger than Exar Kun:

https://imgur.com/gallery/darth-malak-exar-kun-quote-debunk-5M3rcEl

So it should not be assumed that Malak is stronger than Ritual Kun in a straight up fight or contest of Force power.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I should point out that the explanation provided by the author of this quote was that only the Star Forge’s amp and its abilitiy to generate endless fleets is what made him stronger than Exar Kun:

https://imgur.com/gallery/darth-malak-exar-kun-quote-debunk-5M3rcEl

So it should not be assumed that Malak is stronger than Ritual Kun in a straight up fight or contest of Force power.

Author still has Malak as superior.

 

[Epyriel]

Author still has Malak as superior.

Doesn’t really matter if the only thing substantiating that in print is a quote talking about commanding fleets.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Doesn’t really matter if the only thing substantiating that in print is a quote talking about commanding fleets.

The original quote doesn't imply as such, is straight up talking about power.

 

[Epyriel]

The original quote doesn't imply as such, is straight up talking about power.

The original quote is talking about what might have granted him such “powers” and dismisses cybernetic enhancement. And considering how both the author provides the elaborate explanation of the Star Forge amp and its ability to produce fleets, I think we are justified in taking a similar creative interpretation. Especially considering how little sense Malak > Ritual Kun would make.

Malak got one-shot and mind dominated by the thousand year old Darth Vitiate who just a couple decades prior was deemed inferior to Exar Kun. Meanwhile a far stronger Revan was soundly defeated by essentially the same Darth Vitiate.