(STAFF NEEDED) Major AP and Speed Revisions DxD

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

(I’m neutral on the thread. Didn’t even want to post but I’m bored)

Boost hasn’t been stated to explicitly double speed, yeah, but those in support use the fact that Issei gets faster when using Boost. Also, Kokabiel became slower after Divide was used to halve his power.

As already argued, the question is whether the characters get faster as a result of gaining more power, or whether Boost actually doubles speed. The issue is that it’s nebulous and the author has never clarified.

'Boost!!' 'Explosion!!'

A familiar voice resounded. It was coming from the gauntlet Ex was equipping——the artificial Longinus, which resembled the Boosted Gear.

Something was heard being fired from the gauntlet, following which a cartridge popped out. Instantly, an enormous crimson aura was released from the gauntlet, which wrapped itself around Ex's sword. It greatly enhanced Ex's own personal aura, causing his movements to become much more nimble. In that condition, he was mercilessly slaughtering the 'UL' splendidly. It seemed to function similar to the Durandal IV Zen carried in that it increases in power by using a charged bullet.

While the operating mechanism seemed to be somewhat different, fundamentally in terms of ability it was perfectly identical to the genuine Boosted Gear. It would double power, utilizing that power to improve one's physical abilities.

How do you judge the above?

I think it can be interpreted either way, personally. Technically, the durability of the characters gets lower and their attacks get weaker when they lose a lot of aura, so it could simply be that they get faster with more aura given to them. In this case, Boost doesn’t necessarily have to double speed. If it doubles Issei’s aura, he would logically become faster as a result.

It’s either that or Boost actually doubles speed based on what has been presented. Like when Issei transfers boosted power to Kiba and Xenovia, they became much faster. There’s no hard evidence either way, from where I stand. It’s not like the characters have ever really clarified, let’s be honest. So it comes down to the wiki’s standards.

I don't believe that Boost increases Issei's Demonic Power but his power. His stamina increases thanks to Boost? And even if this is the case it must be proven that it also doubles the output of what is done. Directly stated that it doubles the power.

But uh, what? That’s what it does.

Hearing Rias’ signal, I also summoned my wyverns. I began the preparations for [Crimson Extinct Dragon PrincessCrimson Extinct Dragonar]. I allowed the wyverns to attach to Rias’ body, as they gradually covered her in armour; and as soon as Rias’ was fully clad in armour

[Boost!!]

—The sound of her strengthening echoed, which doubled her own power of destruction, and she immediately eradicated more than fifty Evil Dragons in one blow.

That’s obviously doubling Rias’ demonic power and the output of her Power of Destruction as a result. And we have cases like Issei saying the power of his fist is multiplied when he uses Boost, so the output is obviously doubled.

But why are you distinguishing between power and demonic power anyway?

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Personally, I think the Ex statement is pretty clear cut. Doubling power improves all physical abilities via demonic power (strength, defense, speed, stamina) in the same way, atp we'd get into the discussion of if Boosts double or increase strength which is pretty silly. Thanks for your input tho.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Personally, I think the Ex statement is pretty clear cut. Doubling power improves all physical abilities via demonic power (strength, defense, speed, stamina)

Stamina? I don't think so? I mean, the weakness of Boosted Gear for the user is how much their body can handle before it gives out. Issei has gotten tired many times without him saying he can increase his stamina with Boost.

The other stats are improved, yeah.

in the same way, atp we'd get into the discussion of if Boosts double or increase strength which is pretty silly. Thanks for your input tho.

It's not really the same thing. Everyone has acknowledged that speed is increased with Boost or reduced with Divide. The main issue is whether it's literally doubled, or merely increased by a nebulous amount as a result of the character's power being multiplied.

As regards to strength and power, it's not really in question since there's explicit descriptions about power output being doubled, Issei stating Boost multiplies the power of his fists, etc. Those are direct evidence of the multiplication applying to strength and power. There's no explicit statement of speed multiplication though, which is why the thread has been going in circles.

Speaking about that, I don't know if people recognize that the AP is the most important part of the revision. Staff can come and decide about speed, but the discussion should be moved to AP now. Everyone has made their arguments.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Stamina? I don't think so? I mean, the weakness of Boosted Gear for the user is how much their body can handle before it gives out. Issei has gotten tired many times without him saying he can increase his stamina with Boost.

I mean, early on Issei can barely form dragon shots the size of a grain of rice and they're the size of large rocks with boosts, and demonic power is directly equivalent to stamina. Although, I can get disagreeing so it's not really a point that I'll push.

The other stats are improved, yeah.

It's not really the same thing. Everyone has acknowledged that speed is increased with Boost or reduced with Divide. The main issue is whether it's literally doubled, or merely increased by a nebulous amount as a result of the character's power being multiplied.

As regards to strength and power, it's not really in question since there's explicit descriptions about power output being doubled, Issei stating Boost multiplies the power of his fists, etc. Those are direct evidence of the multiplication applying to strength and power. There's no explicit statement of speed multiplication though, which is why the thread has been going in circles.

Eh, Power and Strength aren't exactly the same in DxD, and there aren't many examples of statements like doubling the latter.

Speaking about that, I don't know if people recognize that the AP is the most important part of the revision. Staff can come and decide about speed, but the discussion should be moved to AP now. Everyone has made their arguments.

I definitely agree, I tried saying that earlier as well.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

And Boosts were also stated to "increase power" and if increase in reference to boost means double as they're used interchangeably, and power=stats, and it's shown to both double/increase strength and is shown and stated to also increase speed (Boosts increases physical abilities in the same way according to the Ex statement.), I think my conclusion just makes the most sense.

 

[Digital_Franz]

But uh, what? That’s what it does.

OK on this side. I wanted to take this both ways and you already did. Yes it is then said that it doubles its power but not its speed and as you said having more aura necessarily gives more speed no need for it to double.

That’s obviously doubling Rias’ demonic power and the output of her Power of Destruction as a result. And we have cases like Issei saying the power of his fist is multiplied when he uses Boost, so the output is obviously doubled.

OK. This doubles the Demonic Power and the output. Not always a problem on this side.

But why are you distinguishing between power and demonic power anyway?

Because they want to take the fact that the power is multiplied by two and apply it to speed.

 

[Digital_Franz]

And Boosts were also stated to "increase power" and if increase in reference to boost means double as they're used interchangeably, and power=stats, and it's shown to both double/increase strength and is shown and stated to also increase speed (Boosts increases physical abilities in the same way according to the Ex statement.), I think my conclusion just makes the most sense.

Boost may have been said to increase but to say to what extent it has been said to multiply on more than one occasion yet the same is not true for speed. It was never said that it is multiplied and even in a sentence that says that Boost multiplies the power it just says that it increases the speed. For the AP part I also said it in the discussion thread. The numbers are huge.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Boost may have been said to increase but to say to what extent it has been said to multiply on more than one occasion yet the same is not true for speed. It was never said that it is multiplied and even in a sentence that says that Boost multiplies the power it just says that it increases the speed.

Atp, you're just ignoring the evidence, like I said many times prior, I'd like refrain from discussing this topic with you to prevent circular discussions. There's no point in arguing further as the process will keep repeating and it'll bloat the thread, neither one of us will accept the other's views so we can just wait to discuss this with staff, k?

For the AP part I also said it in the discussion thread. The numbers are huge.

Numbers being big isn't an argument.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Yeah, staff should decide on the speed issue. DDM said he’d come back to check later. But focus should be on the AP

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Just to simplify things:
Arguments for:
AP: Issei's (Previously unaccepted due to inconsistency) Boost multipliers (Which double power as many times as the ability was used) were proven to be consistent via the multiplier blog and a scaling chain with proposed tier changes was made.
Speed: Many characters use light in the series, some uses were previously accepted a light speed while some weren't. My Power Systems blog (and the seventh paragraph of the OP) explains the many similarities to real light and why it should be used for speed scaling. (Should especially be used given characters around that level have ftl feats) Additionally, I proposed the use of the aforementioned Boosts multipliers for Speed because it is shown to increase strength and speed and is stated to double "power". Power referring to Demonic Power which was proven to be a UES and is used to increase the user's physical stats (including speed). And a scaling chain with proposed tier changes were shown in the new sandbox and speed blog. Additionally, I clarified most moments in the series where large speed gaps are present to clear up any potential inconsistencies.
Arguments against:
AP: Inconsistent, numbers are too large.
Speed: Numbers are too large, the exact words "doubling speed" are never used, inconsistent, increase=/=multiply.

 

[Vietthai96]

I forgot EX exist bruhh

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Ultra Bump

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Boost Bump

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Added a pretty good Mid Class speed feat to the speed blog.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Bump, I won't be available between 10-4 EDT, just putting that out there in case there's discussion around that time.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Boost Boost Bump

 

[SCARECROW1983]

This is already dragging on unnecessarily.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

This is already dragging on unnecessarily.

I have to adjust some incorrect statistic values so that's fine, it'll take about an hour or two for that to be done as it's covering the latter half of the AP/Speed.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I have to adjust some incorrect statistic values so that's fine, it'll take about an hour or two for that to be done as it's covering the latter half of the AP/Speed.

Pretty sure they're fixed now.

 

[SCARECROW1983]

Isn't there a way to get a staff member to review the thread? This change is only one vote away from being accepted if I'm not mistaken.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Isn't there a way to get a staff member to review the thread? This change is only one vote away from being accepted if I'm not mistaken.

Specifically, Magic Light scaling to real light needs one more vote. Everything else needs two. And you can try linking the thread on the message walls of Admins/Thread Moderators, and politely asking them to evaluate the thread. Feel free to help however you'd like.

 

[BlackeJan]

I don’t really agree on the boost multiplier and light being real. For one, a human Issei being as fast as Sub Rel….but couldn’t dodge Raynare light (on of the instance ya shown was her just holding a light spear which doesn’t make someone that fast)

The Boost multiplier has been inconsistent for a reason but I honestly think we need a certain multiplier for it. I think we should count Boost as a 4-5 multiplier

EDIT: i can see why using 5x isn’t good but it’s a stronger boosted gear and it doesn’t have its own multipler so why not just do a 3x?

 

[BlackeJan]

I’m not saying it’s not real light. I’m saying using a weapon made of light doesn’t mean you’re moving at lightspeed.

THIS

all Raynare did was hold the light spear and even if Issei did dodged it, it wouldn’t be hella inconsistent for that occasion but it would just be a reaction speed

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I don’t really agree on the boost multiplier and light being real. For one, a human Issei being as fast as Sub Rel….but couldn’t dodge Raynare light (on of the instance ya shown was her just holding a light spear which doesn’t make someone that fast)

I never scaled human Issei and never made the claim that holding the light spear gives someone speed. And it's perfectly reasonable that someone who's 1/16 the speed of something can't dodge that thing.

The Boost multiplier has been inconsistent for a reason but I honestly think we need a certain multiplier for it. I think we should count Boost as a 4-5 multiplier

But it hasn't been inconsistent and there's nothing in the series that points to a 4-5x multiplier.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

THIS

all Raynare did was hold the light spear and even if Issei did dodged it, it wouldn’t be hella inconsistent for that occasion but it would just be a reaction speed

She didn't just hold it, she used it as a projectile and because of it being created through a UES, it would scale to her speed as well. And it wouldn't be inconsistent at all, characters who aren't stronger than him by too high of a degree can casually outspeed and leave behind their own shadow while fighting.

 

[BlackeJan]

She didn't just hold it, she used it as a projectile and because of it being created through a UES, it would scale to her speed as well. And it wouldn't be inconsistent at all, characters who aren't stronger than him by too high of a degree can casually outspeed and leave behind their own shadow while fighting.

Reaction speed and movement speed are 2 different things just because I’m as fast as Usain Bolt doesn’t mean I’m fast enough to dodge something of his speed

I remember in a previous thread u had shown her just holding it like a weapon and thrusting it forward and counter that as a feat which in reality isn’t such. That’s like saying if I’m holding a gun and decide to pistol whip in on another, then that person is as fast as bullets just cause he dodged it

I never scaled human Issei

I looked at the new scaling for Human Issei and it has him at Sub Rel hence why I said that. My mistake if that wasn’t your intention but I’m still disagreeing on it regardless

there's nothing in the series that points to a 4-5x multiplier.

it has in the past hence why everyone decided to drop it all together + it wouldn’t make sense to just assign a multiplier if it never had one in the series itself we can’t do that. The only thing I can say we can propose is either a 2x/2.5x/3x multiplier since it’s a stronger boosted gear

EDIT: are people disagreeing with it stacking? cause yeah I most definitely could see the problem on that but I think we can try reaching a proposal on that

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Reaction speed and movement speed are 2 different things just because I’m as fast as Usain Bolt doesn’t mean I’m fast enough to dodge something of his speed

I never scaled movement speed which is example number 1 of strawmanning.

I remember in a previous thread u had shown her just holding it like a weapon and thrusting it forward and counter that as a feat which in reality isn’t such.

Regardless of whether I did that in a previous thread or not (I didn't), that doesn't mean that it should be brought up in a completely separate thread. Especially considering the dubious canonicity of the various visual depictions of DxD media.

That’s like saying if I’m holding a gun and decide to pistol whip in on another, then that person is as fast as bullets just cause he dodged it

That's completely different tho? It'd be more like, character A fires a gun at character b, character b reacts to it at point blank, character b scales to the speed of the bullet.

I looked at the new scaling for Human Issei and it has him at Sub Rel hence why I said that. My mistake if that wasn’t your intention but I’m still disagreeing on it regardless

I never scaled Human Issei, it wasn't just "not my intention", it's something that I never did. You're honestly just disagreeing with yourself. Strawman example #2.

it has in the past hence why everyone decided to drop it all together

uh, no it hasn't?

+ it wouldn’t make sense to just assign a multiplier if it never had one in the series itself we can’t do that.

bro wdym, that's literally what you're doing by giving Boosts a "4-5x" multiplier. And Boosts do have a states multiplier, they are constantly stated to be an exponential increase that double the power of the user every 10 seconds (restriction doesn't apply to BxB and above)

The only thing I can say we can propose is either a 2x/2.5x/3x multiplier since it’s a stronger boosted gear

But that's literal headcanon tho, multipliers can only be used via direct statements, and even after the Boosted Gear reached its Second Liberation in V2, it's still stated to have the same effect. Implying otherwise is baseless nonsense.

EDIT: are people disagreeing with it stacking? cause yeah I most definitely could see the problem on that but I think we can try reaching a proposal on that

There's no rule against the stacking of multipliers and the multipliers section of VSBW actively encourages is, so this is kinda a non argument.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Bump, I won't be available between 10-4 EDT, just putting that out there in case there's discussion around that time.

This applies today as well btw. If any questions or arguments come in during that time, I'll respond when I'm available.

 

[BlackeJan]

I never scaled Human Issei, it wasn't just "not my intention", it's something that I never did. You're honestly just disagreeing with yourself. Strawman example #2.

In the block u have Vol. 1 Issei at Sub Rel dude

uh, no it hasn't?

yes it has hence why people deemed it inconsistent

That's completely different tho? It'd be more like, character A fires a gun at character b, character b reacts to it at point blank, character b scales to the speed of the bullet.

it’s in reference to u using a feat of Raynard holding a light spear and trying to stab Issei with it

that's literally what you're doing by giving Boosts a "4-5x" multiplier. And Boosts do have a states multiplier, they are constantly stated to be an exponential increase that double the power of the user every 10 seconds

yes hence why I said a proposal at the end of it + ok it’s exponentially doubles which is again why it was deemed inconsistent beforehand with it going overboard with the multipliers like other series that had to get rid of such a thing

There's no rule against the stacking of multipliers and the multipliers section of VSBW

iirc, Rakudai no Calvary had a stacking or multipliers but they got rid of it because how much it was stacking

 

[MasqueTLDF]

In the block u have Vol. 1 Issei at Sub Rel dude

He's not a human for longer than a few pages. For the majority of Volume 1 (which is the Issei I scaled), he's a devil.

yes it has hence why people deemed it inconsistent

And every "inconsistency" in the series has an explanation, I covered every instance of Boosts in the series and there's only 1-2 instances in the series which could possibly be deemed that. And because others believe something is wrong, that doesn't make it wrong. And I asked the others to provide examples before ans they couldn't

it’s in reference to u using a feat of Raynard holding a light spear and trying to stab Issei with it

Her name is "Raynare" and that never happens in the LN, and like I said before, what was said in other threads does not matter here.

yes hence why I said a proposal at the end of it

You can't propose something with no basis.

+ ok it’s exponentially doubles which is again why it was deemed inconsistent beforehand with it going overboard with the multipliers like other series that had to get rid of such a thing

It being consistently depicted makes it inconsistent? That makes zero sense ngl

iirc, Rakudai no Calvary had a stacking or multipliers but they got rid of it because how much it was stacking

This is a completely different series.

 

[BlackeJan]

He's not a human for longer than a few pages. For the majority of Volume 1 (which is the Issei I scaled), he's a devil.

Ok my mistake I thought that was for it but still again I have said before but I don’t even believe it’s actual light

And every "inconsistency" in the series has an explanation, I covered every instance of Boosts in the series and there's only 1-2 instances in the series which could possibly be deemed that. And because others believe something is wrong, that doesn't make it wrong. And I asked the others to provide examples before ans they couldn't

and inconsistency is an inconsistency. U can try to cover or make claims but if it’s not consistent then there’s no point to it

Her name is "Raynare" and that never happens in the LN, and like I said before, what was said in other threads does not matter here.

autocorrect sucks

It being consistently depicted makes it inconsistent? That makes zero sense ngl

it doesn’t make sense to you because u considered it consistent but others don’t see it as that

This is a completely different series.

and it follows the same logic as when it comes to absurd stacking

You can't propose something with no basis.

then the boost multiple shouldn’t even be used if u want to use “doubles exponentially” yet there are no numbers involve

 

[CurrySenpai]

The series says boost doubles your power multiple times end of that discussion.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I mean, we can’t settle on arbitrary numbers like 3x or 5x for official profiles ratings. It’s a bit odd and headcanon territory.

It’s either Boost and Divide are accepted or not. All or nothing. That’s the point of the blog.

Still neutral.

 

[BlackeJan]

The series says boost doubles your power multiple times end of that discussion.

Cool yet there’s no numbers being used and we don’t wanna be abusing multipliers to the point we have to scrap it off again so we have to propose something so it ain’t an end of discussion and

 

[BlackeJan]

I mean, we can’t settle on an arbitrary numbers like 3x or 5x for official profiles ratings. It’s a bit odd and headcanon territory.

It’s either Boost and Divide are accepted or not. All or nothing. That’s the point of the blog.

Still neutral.

We can’t even find a middle ground? I was sure we could propose something

 

[CurrySenpai]

Cool yet there’s no numbers being used and we don’t wanna be abusing multipliers to the point we have to scrap it off again so we have to propose something so it ain’t an end of discussion and

Doubles means x2 this is basic math and I’m not even trying to be rude.

When you double the number 5 you would add 5 to 5 and get 10. This is multiplication..

The series states multiple times he is doubling his power

End of discussion

 

[BlackeJan]

Doubles means x2 this is basic math and I’m not even trying to be rude.

When you double the number 5 you would add 5 to 5 and get 10. This is multiplication..

The series states multiple times he is doubling his power

End of discussion

U are trying to mask the rudeness by again saying “end of discussion” like u can tell someone what to do, don’t forget all u got is a title and nothing more. It’s said to double “exponentially” meaning something of an even greater magnitude this isn’t hard to see here. If we can’t even propose anything then it’s either we take what was said or not

So no there is no end of discussion

 

[SCARECROW1983]

It is not very difficult to realize that if Issei uses boost several times the increase would be like this: x2→x4→x6

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Ok my mistake I thought that was for it but still again I have said before but I don’t even believe it’s actual light

This is a Fallacy, and the evidence I've shown proves otherwise.

and inconsistency is an inconsistency. U can try to cover or make claims but if it’s not consistent then there’s no point to it

"In fiction, an inconsistency is when a character has an occurrence usually regarding power that differs from the norm. An inconsistency can work both ways, being either a low showing or a high showing. Generally, inconsistencies should not be accepted unless there is a good reason for it (such as a character who usually holds back on his or her full power)."

autocorrect sucks

Autocorrect doesn't exactly make you bring up irrelevant material (false claims about a thread that has nothing to do with this one) in this thread but sure ig. I won't harp on the issue too much.

it doesn’t make sense to you because u considered it consistent but others don’t see it as that

Others not "seeing it as that" isn't exactly an argument, you (and everyone else) haven't really proved me wrong in any way. The "there's too many inconsistencies! (without proof)", "the numbers are too big!", and "you're wrong, I don't believe you" are in no way, valid arguments.

and it follows the same logic as when it comes to absurd stacking

It isn't absurd, it is perfectly reasonable based on the evidence I've provided, you haven't shown any evidence of anything that proves otherwise, and there are two very different arguments being used for that series, and this one. Comparing them is unreasonable.

then the boost multiple shouldn’t even be used if u want to use “doubles exponentially” yet there are no numbers involve

Double is literally a number, it's x2. If someone had a 1 Gigaton feat and doubles their power after, it'd be 1x2=2 Gigatons. (The no numbers argument is pretty funny, lol)

 

[MasqueTLDF]

The series says boost doubles your power multiple times end of that discussion.

True, it really doesn't need to go beyond that tbh, the current arguments going back and forth are really unnecessary.