I'm back ig, I'll try to cover everything at once. (It's hilariously ironic that as soon as I can't respond, everyone else can lol)
Also I will say, why can’t Vali be SoL by the first encounter, if anything it makes sense and is more consistent with the scale of the verse, especially considering the fact that he’s a very clear checkpoint of power in the series.
Despite the existence of statements or Vali being SoL, they exist across multiple volumes, and in between each of these volumes, there are statements of Vali training, it personally doesn't make sense to me that he'd have the exact same speed despite training. Also,
Vali massively outsped Kokabiel (A Fallen Angel Cadre) in V3 and
Kokabiel is at least 8x faster than Middle Class Fallen Angels (Just like how Boosts double speed, Divides halve speed as shown in the image I linked) and even faster than Low Class Fallen Angels (like Raynare). Coupled with the boosts stuff shown in the blog, the depiction of feats say something different than than the statements.
The blog does not establish that it is consistent for speed and there are multiple issues.
1. Never in the series is it mentioned that Boost explicitly "doubles" speed. It says it doubles strength / power, which are distinct from speed unless proven otherwise.
2. Arbitrary amplifications of speed do not prove that it also doubles speed. It needs to be explicitly stated for that to be the case.
Boosts are only shown to have a doubling effect, why should we assume that the multiplier for speed is anything else? Every instance has it referred to as "doubling", assuming otherwise is just headcanon imo.
3. Speed multipliers require significantly more evidence to be accepted than power multipliers because of the tendency for fiction to not showcase such multipliers properly.
Not sure if there are any moments that do not display them properly. (Aside from one instance in Volume 9, however that whole moment is one big outlier, and i don't just mean for speed.)
4. There are moments in the blog where the explanations don't make sense or prove inconsistencies. Such as when Vali gets tagged by Issei while still being faster, but then Issei is only barely faster than Vali after boosting multiple times (An amp that would make him tens to even hundreds of times faster). This is blatant inconsistency and it's being used to inflate the ratings.
You're misrepresenting the moment.
Vali was clearly depicted as faster than Issei and
the only time Issei "tags him" is when Vali is standing still to take Issei's attack. This is something that is very in character for Vali as he's arrogant and likes to make his fights more dramatic because of his Chuunibyou nature. Issei never "tags" him again before boosting and
after boosting to become stronger than Vali, he's also faster and Vali can't tag him. So your claim is factually incorrect.
I mentioned these issues to the OP over discord which is why he is telling people not to focus on speed. This is so blatantly and incredibly not acceptable that it makes DDM look bad, gotta be honest with ya
I said not to focus on speed because I was planning on revising it like I said earlier, please don't misrepresent my character or imply that I'm being dishonest.
As for the speed of light stuff, I don't support that either. The examples brought up, as stated by DMUA, don't fly. One example of light magic being okay doesn't make the rest of the verse okay. Especially considering Raynore is a fodder character that apparently couldn't even hit a slightly amped human with "light."
Her name is "Raynare" and every time she's attempted to kill a human, she has. Every example you've provided is incorrect. And the reason why I'm using those other examples as reference is because they're all the same technique, just different applications of it.
Also light spear =/= beam of light.
There are so many things wrong with this thread overall. I wish you guys would properly organize and reference stuff rather than rushing and pumping out these terribly written and formatted blogs/threads.
I'm not trying to be mean, it is just genuinely an unfortunate occurrence.
Raynare's Light Spear's function the same way, not sure why you're drawing a distinction. The shape of the spear is the same shape as a beam so I'm not getting your point.
If boost has very specific statements that are uncontradicted, I still do not really have contentions with using the 5x multipliers if they're outright stated.
I've already cleared this up previously, there was no 5x multiplier.
Likewise, our lightspeed standards have often gone back and forth where the restrictions and leniency often keep going back and forth. But after I double checked some things, some of the standards for light requirements seem to just be simplified statements rather than demonstrations. Sure it's consistent for fire, lightning, ect to be real fire or lightning, but that doesn't really prove light and darkness being real light and darkness just because "It's the same magic system." Like are there at least comparisons to sun light and what not? Or does it demonstrate refractions or bouncing of mirrors or shiny objects?
Yes, there are comparisons to sunlight and it bounces off of mirrors and metal as I've shown before.
I do not might step by step multiplier scaling, but now my concern is if it meets criteria for light.
I'm sure that I've provided enough evidence.
I’m not saying it’s not real light. I’m saying using a weapon made of light doesn’t mean you’re moving at lightspeed.
If someone reacts to that weapon, they are relativistic-ish and the person using the attack has SoL attack speed. I've never made any claims about movement speed.
Also I have to agree with Phoenks that these blogs are hardly readable
Not sure what to do about that, but when an unexperienced user is the only one working on these, sometimes it won't look the prettiest. Though I can assure that these are very well researched if anything, and if you'd like to reformat them while retaining the info, I'd give you permission.
In reality, the only thing I disagree with is not using Vali's Speed Of Light statements as a baseline for when Light Speed starts coming into the scaling, especially since it can be pretty consistent at times (in both the anime, manga, and light novel).
The reasoning for not using them is the same reason we don't use Kiba's Shin 4 statement of "exceeding the speed of sound", it's very inconsistent with the narrative and contradicted by feats.
But the important thing to remember about DxD as a series, is that a lot of fights and buildup usually revolve around there being a large gap in power which characters must overcome, either through training, some sort of power, or in Issei's case: [BOOST]. The Boost Multiplier not only makes sense because it's consistent, but because the series has Issei constantly overcome gaps in AP and Speed, and other characters also do the same, just not through his BOOSTED GEAR method.
I agree.
What statements? And what do you mean? It contradicts itself all the time, even in the very blog itself. I gave an example above. Speed multipliers are not treated nearly to the extent they would be needed to in order to accept them. Let alone STACKING them on top of the other and using them for base-scaling.
You're examples were proven to be invalid.
When you accepted that blog there was literally a statement in there that just gave characters a completely arbitrary 5x speed multiplier for "blitzing," even though there was nothing to suggest that. It was just a random multiplier.
I recommend you give it a more thorough read before commenting again, please.
I'd suggest that you reread as well because as I clarified both in the thread and blog, I never used 5x as a multiplier for blitzing, I'm well aware of the rules. I simply used it as a comparison by saying that someone that was 5x base Issei's speed wouldn't be able to react to someone that was 2^6x Issei's speed. I had a few grammar/spelling mistakes and the comparison didn't convey my point well which was why I removed it.
Anyways, it's not as direct as I remember, but this is from the LN and the fight between Kiba and Issei vs. Xenovia and Irinia
There's probably better examples, but when they say BOOST increases your Power, it doesn't just mean how hard Issei or his attacks can hit, they mean all of your power, including your speed. In these examples, Irina says that if Issei boosted again he would have been able to
evade, not tank,
evade.
Also says if he didn't boost he wouldn't have been able to do anything in their match, and this probably doesn't mean getting one shot as Issei had a training arc that should let him match these characters in base/
This is definitely a good example of power = strength + speed as it refers to "demonic power" which is often used to amp the stats of characters.
Then just refer to these points again.
Said statements are not direct nor consistent enough to say it doubles Issei's speed.
I've tried such scaling before
on my own threads and I was similarly rejected, even with more evidence.
In relation to the statements, ig that's just up to interpretation. There are clearly statements but the quality of these statements is what's being called into question, Ig we can wait for more staff to decide on this particular point.
Anyways,
@MasqueTLDF why can't we use Vali's speed of light feats? I don't quite understand what the issue is.
FRA
There were
scans like this that mention being doubled numerous times. But the 5x just from a generic "Blitzing" feat via our VS Thread rules is definitely against the rules yeah. I do not might some examples but those ones yeah, we shouldn't use that.
I didn't exactly break any rules as my point was misrepresented.
@CurrySenpai are there more elaborate details or better yet visual depictions of the light things behaving like real light? That's what I prefer to start with.
All "visual depiction" come from material that aren't canon to the LN, I'd refer you to my
Power System blog which explains the reasoning for why DxD Light = Real Light along with some of the screenshots that I share in the op.
Is Vali the one with the spear made of light or something? Idk anything about DxD
He is not, the main user that the initial speed scaling is based on is Raynare.
Because that's the standard. Without explicit statements of a strength multiplier also equally multiplying speed, it can't be accepted. Most multipliers that are accepted also arbitrarily boost speed in a similar manner, but they aren't accepted to be explicit speed multipliers. Also, again, more often than not, these theorized speed multipliers aren't consistent with the feats/scenes depicted in the verse. DxD is no different.
Feats aren't inconsistent FRA and we'll let the staff decide FRA
To be perfectly clear, you’re pulling a 2x multiplier from thin air because he has a technique that makes him considerably faster? Why not just use “far higher with Boosts” or something?
2x multiplier comes from an ability that doubles his power (energy system of the verse which characters use to amp speed and strength) which is stated to be strength + speed, is consistently shown to increase his strength by powers of 2 and his speed also increases, it's just never stated that his speed is specifically "doubled", however we can infer such based on the meaning of power (the quote
@CurrySenpai shared earlier and general uses of demonic power).
Erm, I'm almost sure he's used light magic before but he's never produced light spears.
this just doesn't even exist btw
we have no stated multiplier or anything for blitzing because of how much it varies. being fast enough to disappear from sight from 100m away is obviously far more impressive than doing it while in front of the person due to the extra distance necessary to move, for example.
you can make the exact same argument about physical oneshots (two equal humans can knock one another out with a well-placed strike) even though we have a page for those but we still don't use those for multipliers so you get the idea.
blah blah blah FRA
Oh ok I see, does the verse have some kind of Power UES then? Where like, someone with a power of 8 or something will always have the same stats as someone else with a power of 8 (I’m not sure if numbers are consistently used I’m just going off what I saw in the multiplier blog). Stuff like glass cannon characters would sort of contradict this, or characters who are speedster types.
UES yes, but not specifically in reference to Power. The amount of Demonic Power (Ki, Magic Power, Holy Power, Dragon Power etc) generally is proportionate to a character having high stats, like Sairaorg with his massive amount of Ki being far stronger than characters with high amounts of Demonic Power (Kiba, Rossweisse, Asia etc), characters with massive Demonic Power like Vali are regarded as superior to characters like Issei/Kiba with low-high Demonic Power and so on. Issei can increase his demonic power with boosts and match characters like Kiba in speed, and there are also other speed increasing abilities like Kiba's Rocket Boosters and Issei's Jet which utilize Demonic Power.
If there’s a split between speed and strength, idk if the doubling thing should also be applied to his speed? Also, what piece did Issei promote to?
Not really a split, even Kiba (high demonic power) who's regarded as fast is slower than characters like Vali who have a very large Demonic Power, it's typically displayed similarly to what you'd expect. And Issei wasn't promoted in any of the instances I mentioned.
Also, on the topic of Vol. 1-3 character being relativistic, since it was a light speed attack I'm pretty sure we can just say that most angels have light speed attacks,
That was kinda my intent, but characters reacting to those light speed attacks would grant them a rating as well.
them being that fast in 1-3 don't make sense.
Eh, I disagree.
Another good example, thank you.
Thank you all for conversing with each other while I was away, hope I cleared some things up, and if I didn't feel free to ask for more help. (Although my activity on here may be a bit more limited.) If anyone would like to discuss the Multiplier's effect on AP (considering that was kinda the main point of the CRT), I'd appreciate it, especially since it's a lot more clear cut. Have a good evening folks, I'mma play Master Duel. (Sorry for the long message : p)
Edit: nothing is clear cut in a dxd crt lol
