(Staff discussion) Re-adding Goku's resistance to Time stop

[ArmBill]

Since vados explanation is the latest in universe explanation, and the role of it was delinate alot of new information, that the audience didn't know. It should take precedent over earlier explanations and statements from toei, although it's possible those site descriptions could be a mistranslation. But at worst it's a retcon.

One point I didn't make in the previous thread is that if it functioned as timestop, the storing ability wouldn't really function as stated. Hits able the store the time he skipped over. However, if Hit stopped time for 10 seconds, for example. Those 10 seconds didn't happen, so there wouldn't be that ammount to store, as time isn't flowing.

Stopping time for hit should a byproduct or a different ability all together, since they don't call it time skip when he does that to the mob boss. All the times, it's stated he was using time skip should use Vados explanation, for how its functioned.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Stopping time for hit should a byproduct or a different ability all together, since they don't call it time skip when he does that to the mob boss. All the times, it's stated he was using time skip should use Vados explanation, for how its functioned.

Which is contradicted by Toei's official Website, which states that Hit was indeed stopping time by 0'1 seconds, and was able to improve it further, to 0,2 seconds and beyond, and is consistant with the visual effects of Goku freezed in time.

東映アニメーション　 ドラゴンボール超

テレビシリーズ初！鳥山 明オリジナル原案！「ドラゴンボール」アニメ新シリーズ

www.toei-anim.co.jp

Here is the little fragment where is stated, translated in English:

"Goku predicts the movement after 0.1 seconds and counterattacks brilliantly at the "time skip" that stops the time for 0.1 seconds and attacks!"

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Which is contradicted by Toei's official Website, which states that Hit was indeed stopping time by 0'1 seconds, and is consistant with the visual effects of Goku freezed in time.

東映アニメーション　 ドラゴンボール超

テレビシリーズ初！鳥山 明オリジナル原案！「ドラゴンボール」アニメ新シリーズ

www.toei-anim.co.jp

Here is the little fragment where is stated, translated in English:

"Goku predicts the movement after 0.1 seconds and counterattacks brilliantly at the "time skip" that stops the time for 0.1 seconds and attacks!"

He didn't say that Hit didn't stop time...

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

He didn't say that Hit didn't stop time...

However, I'm going to copy paste what the user Proudlearner suggested.


"King Kai says "But I heard you predicted a few seconds in time at the martial arts match, right?". Implying that Hit's Time Skip goes forward in time to attack which Time Stops because Son Goku's actions haven't been decided in the future. Son Goku forced his way in the future to resist and counter hit's time skip which gives him resistance to it. Until Hit power up further.

According to the Speed page, Note 7. Supports this feat.

Vados statement is partially correct, which was taken out of context. First of all, this is not a retcon to their previous confrontation. This is her saying that it is not Time Stop and that Hit is just skipping time".

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the replies. It seems like this has enough support to pass then.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Thank you for the replies. It seems like this has enough support to pass then.

Yeah, like 7 Staff members agreed

 

[Antvasima]

Also, should we add battle precognition for Goku as well?

Can somebody re-post the evidence for this from the previous thread?

Anyway, about this...

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Anyway, about this...

I've contacted Rez, the one that suggested Goku's precognition.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

 

[ArmBill]

Which is contradicted by Toei's official Website, which states that Hit was indeed stopping time by 0'1 seconds, and was able to improve it further, to 0,2 seconds and beyond, and is consistant with the visual effects of Goku freezed in time.

東映アニメーション　 ドラゴンボール超

テレビシリーズ初！鳥山 明オリジナル原案！「ドラゴンボール」アニメ新シリーズ

www.toei-anim.co.jp

Here is the little fragment where is stated, translated in English:

"Goku predicts the movement after 0.1 seconds and counterattacks brilliantly at the "time skip" that stops the time for 0.1 seconds and attacks!"

Like I said, it's possible it's a byproduct. However at worse it's a retcon. As if he was just stopping time, storing time wouldn't function, and Vados wouldn't have said the first part of her statment. Plus information out of universe that contradicts in universe information should be disregarded.

The 2nd thing you quoted supports my statements as well, that he was moving through time. The only problem the opening had with immeasurable was that it could be an outlier. However, I showed how it wasn't in the last thread, plus you pretty much conceded and just said it was wack.

 

[ArmBill]

Anyway, about this...

I thought he already had analytical prediction though, is the point to further elaborate the ability on his profile?

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

I thought he already had analytical prediction though, is the point to further elaborate the ability on his profile?

Anyway, let's move on with what is accepted on this thread.

Shouldn't that be precog thought?, Goku was predicting Hit's movements. Precog is about predicting your opponent's move isn't It?

 

[Antvasima]

Oh. I was not aware of that. It wouldn't hurt to add another, possibly better, reason for it though.

 

[ArmBill]

Anyway, let's move on with what is accepted on this thread.

Shouldn't that be precog thought?, Goku was predicting Hit's movements. Precog is about predicting your opponent's move isn't It?

Analytical prediction is just mentally predicting. While precognition is using an ability to my knowledge. So it should stay Analytical in my opinion.

One thing I think should be added is other characters who are even or weaker than Goku, who are able not get destroyed by him in combat should get it as well.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

One thing I think should be added is other characters who are even or weaker than Goku, who are able not get destroyed by him in combat should get it as well

Heavily agree with this one.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Analytical prediction is just mentally predicting. While precognition is using an ability to my knowledge. So it should stay Analytical in my opinion.

I think that both abilities should remain the same thought, there wouldn't be much confusions.

We could just put the ability by types, just like AE and corruption.

Analytical prediction type 1: The character mentally predicts the opponent's moves.

Analytical prediction type 2: The user predicts the opponent's moves through an ability.

 

[Rez]

Ok about Goku's Precognition or Analytical Prediction upgrade

At the beginning of the fight Goku was predicting where Hit will time skip himself this is a pretty decent feat for limited precog I think

 

[ArmBill]

I think that both abilities should remain the same thought, there wouldn't be much confusions.

We could just put the ability by types, just like AE and corruption.

Analytical prediction type 1: The character mentally predicts the opponent's moves.

Analytical prediction type 2: The user predicts the opponent's moves through an ability.

Analytical by definition is "relating to or using analysis or logical reasoning". So using an ability wouldn't really follow that definition. Since you naturally see the future.

@Rez Actually the galactic king was the one who told goku about the time skip, he didn't discover it himself.

 

[Rez]

@Rez Actually the galactic king was the one who told goku about the time skip, he didn't discover it himself.

He figured out that Hit's time skip allows him to leap 0.1 second forward in time by himself

 

[ArmBill]

He figured out that Hit's time skip allows him to leap 0.1 second forward in time by himself

 

[Rez]

Ok the information analysis part was wrong I will remove it from my previous post

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Ok, Time stop resistance is accepted, And Goku already has analytical prediction, then the only thing left to be done is to upgrade Hit's range.
Hit's range for his Time Skip needs to be reworded because it is not Universal. It is a Pocket Dimension:

https://www.crunchyroll.com/dragon-ball-super/episode-72-will-there-be-a-counterattack-the-invisible-killing-strike-723757

Minute (17:42)

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I wholeheartedly agree with AKM Sama and God900.

I also fully agree with Goku having Precognition/Analytical Prediction.

In fact, this thread on the topic may interest you all. Its aim is to add justifications for Goku's Analytical Prediction, funnily enough.

 

[Vietthai96]

While Toei site said Hit stop time, but Vados - a reliable sources of information inside the show said he skipping time, skip and stop is way different, while i could go and explain the entire mechanic of skipping time as the ability is just self-time accelerated but on steroid, but possibly no one here will buy it in favor of their own desire.
So Vados statement can't be ignore either as she is a reliable sources, so she contradict Toei official site, that mean currently we can't treat Hit time hax as either stop time or skip time, and Goku will have nothing, no time-stop resistance, Analytical Prediction stay there but should have a description so people could understand the potency of his prediction that can predict Hit time hax

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Question: Can Goku moving in hit's time skip or overpowering it grant immeasurable speed?

 

[Teezar]

However, I'm going to copy paste what the user Proudlearner suggested.


"King Kai says "But I heard you predicted a few seconds in time at the martial arts match, right?". Implying that Hit's Time Skip goes forward in time to attack which Time Stops because Son Goku's actions haven't been decided in the future. Son Goku forced his way in the future to resist and counter hit's time skip which gives him resistance to it. Until Hit power up further.

According to the Speed page, Note 7. Supports this feat.

Vados statement is partially correct, which was taken out of context. First of all, this is not a retcon to their previous confrontation. This is her saying that it is not Time Stop and that Hit is just skipping time".

This is basically prediction.

 

[SirAlex09]

It's kinda sad that Toriyama came up with a very complex technique that neither Toei nor Toyotaro fully understand and made it work like a time stop instead because it's easier to write around

 

[Antvasima]

I do not mind if Goku and characters that can keep up with him get Analytical Prediction, but the ability currently redirects to the Precognition page, so maybe that should be expanded into different types, depending on if it is done via intelligence/skill or supernatural power, for general usage in the wiki?

 

[Vietthai96]

I do not mind if Goku and characters that can keep up with him get Analytical Prediction, but the ability currently redirects to the Precognition page, so maybe that should be expanded into different types, depending on if it is done via intelligence/skill or supernatural power, for general usage in the wiki?

Precognition may be based on any number of factors; it may be based on reading the minute body movements of an opponent, predicting their actions through observation, mathematical predictions, or through some unspecified magical or astronomical means, among any other number of abilities. Given this wide variety of methods, any given user's form of Precognition and its limitations should be described on their page.
This come directly from the precognition page, so i think we don't need a separated page for Analytical Prediction as precognition already cover it, we just need to separated it inside the Precognition page. I have a draft for this:

Precognition is the ability to see the future. The specifics of the ability, and whether or not they can act on the information they see to change the future, differs depending on the user and verse. The ability may only be useful for the short term; or it may be best for the long term. Precognition can allow characters to react to attacks faster than they'd normally be able to react to. The information it provides may be complex and intricate, or simple and limited, if not inaccurate, while other forms of precognition may be much more accurate.

Analytical Prediction is a sub-type of Precognition, rather than a supernatural abilities, it is based on reading the minute body movements of an opponent, predicting their actions through observation, mathematical, intellectual predictions, or through some unspecified magical or astronomical means, among any other number of abilities.

To be honest i'm thinking about this for a very long time as Precog is predict near future through superpower, while many character can predict through scientific mean

 

[Antvasima]

That is probably fine, but we would need a separate staff thread to discuss the issue, and magic should likely not be listed as a reason for analytical prediction. It would just be regular precognition as far as I am aware.

 

[Vietthai96]

That is probably fine, but we would need a separate staff thread to discuss the issue, and magic should likely not be listed as a reason for analytical prediction. It would just be regular precognition as far as I am aware.

Ah yeah, i forgot that part, too rushing in copy-pasted, i think i will make it

 

[Vietthai96]

That is probably fine, but we would need a separate staff thread to discuss the issue, and magic should likely not be listed as a reason for analytical prediction. It would just be regular precognition as far as I am aware.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/predicting-the-future.120520/
Done, Ant ^^

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you, but you misunderstood my intentions in the OP for the new thread.

 

[ProudLearner]

Bump

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

if goku is literally forcing him self into the future, isn't that immeasurable speed?

 

[sanicspood]

they say its an outlier or sum

 

[Orange]

if goku is literally forcing him self into the future, isn't that immeasurable speed?

That was a mistranslation or something last time I heard

 

[Vietthai96]

That was a mistranslation or something last time I heard

That thing is belong to english dub, but we don't use english dub here considering it it not reliable most of the time

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

so according to english dub , goku has a immeasurable speed feat, correct? Just wanted to confirm. I am sorry for derailing, but is that a direct statement that goku is forcing himself into future and jiren transcending time?

 

[ArmBill]

so according to english dub , goku has a immeasurable speed feat, correct? Just wanted to confirm. I am sorry for derailing, but is that a direct statement that goku is forcing himself into future and jiren transcending time?

Those are both direct statments, but the Jiren one is in sub and dub. While the Goku statment is in the dub only. However, If you go by Vados statment of Hit skipping and not stopping it, then the dub's statment still holds true.