SSJ3 Goku/Innocent Majin Buu issue & Jiren scaling to the GoD's

[Padaruyos]

Assuming the "Restrained Jiren shaking WoV thus superior to 3 GoDs fighting" would be accepted. This would mean that the characters who scale would be bare minimum 1,5x baseline (2 universe) 2-C.

Interesting stuff.

 

[Padaruyos]

Or does this make them a 3 universe 2-C? Not quite sure how Tier 2 scaling works.

 

[Ovrhide]

Doesn’t Beerus somewhat scale to Broly tho? Doesn’t that throw a wrench here considering how disgustingly much more powerful Broly is than two Broly movie era Super Saiyan Blues?

I can’t see beerus being just relative to post episode 123 Super Saiyan Blues.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Broly is stated to probably be stronger than Beerus, so no, not really

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Beerus also gets progressively stronger throughout the course of the series even when he doesn't train.

But even then, Broly is still easily stronger than Beerus and has also only gotten much stronger in Super Hero.

 

[Eseseso]

Beerus also gets progressively stronger throughout the course of the series even when he doesn't train.

But even then, Broly is still easily stronger than Beerus and has also only gotten much stronger in Super Hero.

A fellow Broly > Beerus believer, I see.

 

[Steve_Rogers1]

Broly is stated to probably be stronger than Beerus, so no, not really

All before his training with Goku, Vegeta, and Whis

 

[Steve_Rogers1]

While the Daizenshuu supports Buu equally SSJ3 Goku, Kid Buu stomped Fat Buu but matched SSJ3 so to me that seems to indicate that SSJ3 Goku is far above Innocent Buu, but if anyone disagrees let me know.

This was probably touched on earlier, but Goku fought Buu before his power split.

2. Ok, I'm astonished at how the wiki has not accepted this yet despite all the evidence, but restrained Jiren should scale above Belmod.

A. Whis's statement in 110 was blatantly saying that Restrained Jiren > Belmod.

B. No one ******* scratched Restrained Jiren, he wasn't even hurt by Vegeta's attacks. He only went serious due to Vegeta and Goku being too tenacious to take down normally.

C. He scared Beerus with his casual aura.

D. To quote @Zamasu_Chan : As we know, it's taboo for Gods of Destruction to fight each other. Or else it'll result in the destruction of more than one universe when they fight. When Arak, Iwen and Liquir fight each other, despite it being taboo, their fight has no effect on the World of Void. However, Jiren, while suppressed, and UIO1 Goku, shook the World of Void.

The only, and I mean only people who should scale to him are all of his states, the angels, and MUI Goku.

Scaling like this ends up with current SSBs stomping GoDs even though they are still benchmarks for Goku and Vegeta to try and reach

 

[SirAlex09]

While the Daizenshuu supports Buu equally SSJ3 Goku, Kid Buu stomped Fat Buu but matched SSJ3 so to me that seems to indicate that SSJ3 Goku is far above Innocent Buu, but if anyone disagrees let me know.

Kid Buu can match him for same the reason SSJB Goku could match Golden Frieza whom could oneshot Goku according to Goku's own word: Stamina.

SSJ3 had terrible stamina and Kid Buu had a healing factor and unlimited stamina so this kinda evened the things out. And Buu's unorthodox fighting style countered Goku's martial arts training.

In short Goku at his peak can be far above either Kid Buu or Fat Buu but it doesn't matter because of his weaknesses that evened the fight out.

 

[Eseseso]

Kid Buu can match him for same the reason SSJB Goku could match Golden Frieza whom could oneshot Goku according to Goku's own word: Stamina.

SSJ3 had terrible stamina and Kid Buu had a healing factor and unlimited stamina so this kinda evened the things out. And Buu's unorthodox fighting style countered Goku's martial arts training.

In short Goku at his peak can be far above either Kid Buu or Fat Buu but it doesn't matter because of his weaknesses that evened the fight out.

I was referring to how his profile says he easily beat FAT Buu.

 

[SirAlex09]

I was referring to how his profile says he easily beat FAT Buu.

oh nvm then

 

[Eseseso]

oh nvm then

It's my bad for not being specific in the OP

 

[LordTracer]

Scaling like this ends up with current SSBs stomping GoDs even though they are still benchmarks for Goku and Vegeta to try and reach

They still scale below Beerus so this isn’t an issue.

 

[Godernet]

I think he's referring to that one promotional statement that Post-Tournament Goku is only just now approaching the level of the Gods.

which could just be safely ignored depending on who made the statement.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think he's referring to that one promotional statement that Post-Tournament Goku is only just now approaching the level of the Gods.

which could just be safely ignored depending on who made the statement.

Couldn't that also just be referring to how he's delved into Ultra Instinct, which has been referred to as "the state of the gods"?

 

[Godernet]

Couldn't that also just be referring to how he's delved into Ultra Instinct, which has been referred to as "the state of the gods"?

The statement seemed to refer to Goku's state of power entering the Broly movie as he was to be approaching their level. And Goku couldn't willingly use Ultra instinct at the end of Super or during the Broly movie. Besides Ultra instinct is pretty much accepted across both canons to rival the Gods so it seems more likely that it was referring to SSB Goku and Vegeta.

Let me see if I can find the statement

 

[CloverDragon03]

I know that Ultra Instinct rivals and even surpasses the gods, but I think Goku would still only be approaching the level of the gods because he can't use Ultra Instinct at will

 

[omegabronic]

I don't see how this is an issue. Some GoDs are superior to others.

The weaker GoDs (such as those 3) would be "At most 2-C" while stronger ones like Beerus and Belmod would be straight up 2-C

the "At most 2-C" is because they are half the baseline of 2-C, unless there is explicit evidence that they are 2x stronger, they would still have an "at most"

 

[CloverDragon03]

the "At most 2-C" is because they are half the baseline of 2-C, unless there is explicit evidence that they are 2x stronger, they would still have an "at most"

Beerus > SSB Goku ~ Restrained Jiren > 3 GoDs

That's the proof

 

[omegabronic]

Beerus > SSB Goku ~ Restrained Jiren > 3 GoDs

That's the proof

i don't think we scale things like that, there was a thread that tried this logic and was rejected last year i think

 

[CloverDragon03]

i don't think we scale things like that, there was a thread that tried this logic and was rejected last year i think

It being rejected before is not grounds for rejecting it now. It could've simply been wrong to reject it before, especially given that there was considerable support for it back then

 

[omegabronic]

It being rejected before is not grounds for rejecting it now. It could've simply been wrong to reject it before, especially given that there was considerable support for it back then

yeah but that would require another thread, if it is currently rejected, then another threads is needed to remove and apply said rejected thing

 

[LordTracer]

yeah but that would require another thread, if it is currently rejected, then another threads is needed to remove and apply said rejected thing

No…? If there were a discussion rule, then there would need to be a thread to remove it before a thread to apply it, but that’s not the case here.

 

[omegabronic]

No…? If there were a discussion rule, then there would need to be a thread to remove it before a thread to apply it, but that’s not the case here.

ok then, proceed

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, if a discussion rule was made, that'd be one thing, but there isn't, so yeah...

Anyways, what I've stated above is how Beerus still scales above SSB Goku, if the Broly movie promotional statement is interpreted as Goku still being behind Beerus. However, I believe that isn't the only possible interpretation

 

[Padaruyos]

Scaling chain for ToP?

Baseline 2-C =< 2 GoDs fighting < 3 GoDs fighting < Restrained Jiren ~ UIO1 Goku < UIO2 Goku < Late-tournament SSB Goku < Late-tournament SSBKKX20 Goku < "Hint-of full power" Jiren < UIO3 Goku ~ Full Power Jiren < PUI Goku < Limit Breaker Jiren < Enraged PUI Goku.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think that just about explains it

 

[omegabronic]

It would be cool if the staff that disagreed on this subject last time were tagged or called here

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I just think that scaling Goku above Beerus is not a good choice, I think it's possible to scale above Bellmoth

 

[Eseseso]

It would be cool if the staff that disagreed on this subject last time were tagged or called here

Please no.

This was agreed upon by more than enough staff last time.

 

[Padaruyos]

I think it's only AKM and also Damage (might be neutral I forgot) who disagreed with the thread last time. Plenty of other mods agreed I think.

 

[Eseseso]

I think it's only AKM and also Damage (might be neutral I forgot) who disagreed with the thread last time. Plenty of other mods agreed I think.

YEP.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

YEP.

Have you had two team members agree to this? If so, can it already be applied or is more needed?

 

[Padaruyos]

I don't know which one in the disagree/agree list are mods tbh.

 

[omegabronic]

Please no.

This was agreed upon by more than enough staff last time.

it wasn't tho? hence why it was disagreed upon

 

[Padaruyos]

Should I post the link to the last thread here?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I don't know which one in the disagree/agree list are mods tbh.

I see, beautiful core i7 in profile lol

 

[Padaruyos]

I got the link to the last thread here

 

[LordTracer]

I just think that scaling Goku above Beerus is not a good choice, I think it's possible to scale above Bellmoth

Nobody suggested scaling Goku above Beerus, so I don’t know why you’re mentioning that?

Baseline 2-C =< 2 GoDs fighting < 3 GoDs fighting < Restrained Jiren ~ UIO1 Goku < UIO2 Goku < Late-tournament SSB Goku < Late-tournament SSBKKX20 Goku < "Hint-of full power" Jiren < UIO3 Goku ~ Full Power Jiren < PUI Goku < Limit Breaker Jiren < Enraged PUI Goku.

Yeah pretty much, although unless I’m forgetting something, I don’t think we can concretely say that Post-UIO2 SSB Goku is stronger than UIO2 Goku.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Nobody suggested scaling Goku above Beerus, so I don’t know why you’re mentioning that?

Yeah pretty much, although unless I’m forgetting something, I don’t think we can concretely say that Post-UIO2 SSB Goku is stronger than UIO2 Goku.

I understand