Majin Buu Saga Toei Scaling Revision

[CloverDragon03]

ok? My main problem is the other characters scaling to it.

Okay, I think I understand your concern though, and I can address it this way:

You can be in the same tier and still be much weaker, especially when it comes to tiers of infinite AP like 2-C.

 

[Damage3245]

Damage, I've seen you do this a lot, and it's really gotta stop especially given your high position. I know this is a part of your tirade of "Dragon Ball is such a wanked verse and everyone just wants to keep making it stronger with reckless abandon," I've seen you make those comments several times before. You seriously need to stop poisoning the well, especially when you're not contributing to the thread beyond offhanded statements (as I've seen looking through the thread).

What's wrong with my comment? It was a genuine question. Both options are possible avenues for consideration after all, even if both are rejected.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

You can be in the same tier and still be much weaker, especially when it comes to tiers of infinite AP like 2-C.

But if there’s 0 evidence proving they’re in that tier then any boost in strength should grant them that tier as they aren’t there already. We don’t know how big this boost is.

Goten and Trunks both knew how strong Buu was and Goku. When fused even Piccolo didn’t know whether he’d win or not, meaning their power was relative. When he went SSJ he was confident that he’d win but they never got to fight.

Goten and trunks are relative in powers and their strength is finite.

So unless we list them as 2-C in their base forms before training then this scaling is contradicted.

Buu’s absorption is treated finite here, so Majin Buu should scale to 2-C as well.

 

[CloverDragon03]

What's wrong with my comment? It was a genuine question. Both options are possible avenues for consideration after all, even if both are rejected.

Because I very much understand the implications behind it, especially seeing your past comments on how you believe the Dragon Ball verse is treated right now.

But if there’s 0 evidence proving they’re in that tier then any boost in strength should grant them that tier as they aren’t there already. We don’t know how big this boost is.

Yes there is, via the downscaling from Buuhan. The fact that Vegito didn't turn into Super Vegito during Buu's rage amp indicates that Super Vegito > Rage Buuhan, and Super Saiyan is a 50x amp so Base Vegito would be 2-C, for instance. And then there's the obvious downscaling.

Goten and Trunks both knew how strong Buu was and Goku. When fused even Piccolo didn’t know whether he’d win or not, meaning their power was relative. When he went SSJ he was confident that he’d win but they never got to fight.

Gotenks would be 2-C

Goten and trunks are relative in powers and their strength is finite.

So unless we list them as 2-C in their base forms before training then this scaling is contradicted.

There's nothing concrete on how the Fusion Dance amp is treated. It's all in the feats

Buu’s absorption is treated finite here, so Majin Buu should scale to 2-C as well.

Go ahead

 

[Damage3245]

Because I very much understand the implications behind it, especially seeing your past comments on how you believe the Dragon Ball verse is treated right now.

You can read into it what you'd like, but it's best to avoid assumptions.

 

[CloverDragon03]

You can read into it what you'd like, but it's best to avoid assumptions.

I know, but you've had this habit of going onto Dragon Ball threads to complain about how wanked you think the verse is and all that. Regardless, it's gotta stop. I get it's your opinion and all, but it leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth and this kind of behavior is generally frowned upon

 

[Damage3245]

I know, but you've had this habit of going onto Dragon Ball threads to complain about how wanked you think the verse is and all that. Regardless, it's gotta stop

I'll try to keep my comments more constructive going forwards.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'll try to keep my comments more constructive going forwards.

Appreciate it. Thanks

 

[AguilaR202]

Why are we assuming Buuhan's rage caused a sudden infinite amp when there has been no precedent for this in the past? And either way, Kid Buu would still scale above this via his statements. Also, for those that have the issue of "why should lower forms be 2-C?" it's not as simple as that. It's downscaling. Multiple characters can be in the same tier with a clear scaling chain involved.

As for Goku and Vegeta, I disagree with the removal of their Post-Vegito Division keys. They clearly got much stronger, as they were beating perfect clones of Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks as regular Super Saiyans. Not only that, but they did this while being reduced to less than 1/100 of their power.

So yeah, overall I disagree with the OP

The problem with characters below Buuhan is that there isn’t any legitimate argument for downscaling.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The problem with characters below Buuhan is that there isn’t any legitimate argument for downscaling.

Buu's power boosts work via absorption. He's adding their power to his own. In order for the jump from Buutenks to Buuhan to be a notable power jump, Gohan would have to be 2-C, for instance

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

As for Goku and Vegeta, I disagree with the removal of their Post-Vegito Division keys. They clearly got much stronger, as they were beating perfect clones of Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks as regular Super Saiyans. Not only that, but they did this while being reduced to less than 1/100 of their power.

Important to note that the clone scaling is wacky because even though they're stated to be as strong as the original, Super Buu, who by all means should be inferior to them, does a much better job at fighting Goku and Vegeta, the latter of whom resorts to undoing one of his absorptions

However, Post-Vegito Division and 2-C should stay, although its questionable whether or not Base and Super Saiyan should stay 2-C

 

[AguilaR202]

Buu's power boosts work via absorption. He's adding their power to his own. In order for the jump from Buutenks to Buuhan to be a notable power jump, Gohan would have to be 2-C, for instance

Except this is never stated to work by simple addition, I pointed earlier how Buu could get over >500x though a single absorbtion of someone weaker than him ( evil buu absorbing fat Buu and becoming super Buu)

So the argument that they are simple additions doesn’t hold up when you actually look into how characters actually scale.

the most glaring issue is the fact that Buuhan is only 2-C because he can shout all of the dimensions of the universe apart while Super Buu can only break a 1 meter hole through two dimensions, their feats aren’t comparable and the scaling is dubious.

we have no explicit numerical increase for absorbtions to reliably downscale characters from one another.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Except this is never stated to work by simple addition, I pointed earlier how Buu could get over >500x though a single absorbtion of someone weaker than him ( evil buu absorbing fat Buu and becoming super Buu)


So the argument that they are simple additions doesn’t hold up when you actually look into how characters actually scale.

This absorption in particular is different from the rest given the method by which it was done. Evil Buu simply turned him into chocolate and ate him, triggering the change, despite this not happening when he did the same to tons of other people (including multiple Z-Fighters)

the most glaring issue is the fact that Buuhan is only 2-C because he can shout all of the dimensions of the universe apart while Super Buu can only break a 1 meter hole through two dimensions, their feats aren’t comparable and the scaling is dubious.

we have no explicit numerical increase for absorbtions to reliably downscale characters from one another.

This is an AP =/= DC thing, as this hole resulted from Buu's rage at being unable to escape the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, whereas in Buuhan's case, he was furious due to losing to Vegito.

Also, this wouldn't really disprove anything, as Super Buu is scaling very much below Buuhan

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Important to note that the clone scaling is wacky because even though they're stated to be as strong as the original, Super Buu, who by all means should be inferior to them, does a much better job at fighting Goku and Vegeta, the latter of whom resorts to undoing one of his absorptions

However, Post-Vegito Division and 2-C should stay, although its questionable whether or not Base and Super Saiyan should stay 2-C

If they’re 2-C in SSJ it’d downscale to base no question we definitely can downscale from SSJ now we can’t for something like SSJG

 

[Damage3245]

So when is the earliest that a 2-C character appears according to the new scaling?

 

[AguilaR202]

This absorption in particular is different from the rest given the method by which it was done. Evil Buu simply turned him into chocolate and ate him, triggering the change, despite this not happening when he did the same to tons of other people (including multiple Z-Fighters)

This is an AP =/= DC thing, as this hole resulted from Buu's rage at being unable to escape the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, whereas in Buuhan's case, he was furious due to losing to Vegito.

Also, this wouldn't really disprove anything, as Super Buu is scaling very much below Buuhan

The method doesn’t matter, Fat boo is seen in the same absrbtion pods as everyone else he ever absorbed and having it pulled out of him caused Super Buu to lose transformations as did everyone else inside him.

Really now, I can’t make this any more simpler

character A destroys a wall =9-B

Character B is stated to be stronger than character A

Character B proceeds to destroys the universe= 3-A

You can’t backscale Buuhans feats because he is stronger to an unknown degree and has better feats, the idea that they’re close in power to each other in power is literally never stated anywhere.

 

[Damage3245]

You can’t backscale Buuhans feats because he is stronger to an unknown degree and has better feats, the idea that they’re close in power to each other in power is literally never stated anywhere.

I agree.

I don't think I commented it on the previous page, but I agree with the OP's proposal.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The method doesn’t matter, Fat boo is seen in the same absrbtion pods as everyone else he ever absorbed and having it pulled out of him caused Super Buu to lose transformations as did everyone else inside him.

Really now, I can’t make this any more simpler

It does matter when your only example is the one time where the method is the most different

character A destroys a wall =9-B

Character B is stated to be stronger than character A

Character B proceeds to destroys the universe= 3-A

You can’t backscale Buuhans feats because he is stronger to an unknown degree and has better feats, the idea that they’re close in power to each other in power is literally never stated anywhere.

False equivalence. You also need to understand that they can both be 2-C and also not be close in power to each other. That's literally the case with any tier from High 3-A onwards, because the AP value is infinite

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Yes there is, via the downscaling from Buuhan. The fact that Vegito didn't turn into Super Vegito during Buu's rage amp indicates that Super Vegito > Rage Buuhan, and Super Saiyan is a 50x amp so Base Vegito would be 2-C, for instance. And then there's the obvious downscaling.

Vegito was already SSJ during Buu’s rage amp, what’re you talking about? You seem to be missing what I’m saying.
These finite multipliers can depict infinite level of increase via showings and statements.
For no reason at all should we treat Buu’s absorption as linear as that would literally **** the scaling all up and make it entirely inconsistent. For no reason should Fat Buu not scale to Superbuu. So according to this scaling Evil Buu (relative to fat buu) absorbing Fat Buu makes him 2-C while fat buu is 4-B?

Yet all the other instances are treated as linear with this one being well over infinite?

Gotenks would be 2-C

There's nothing concrete on how the Fusion Dance amp is treated. It's all in the feats

We know from several sources that it’s a multiplication of two powers. It cannot be anything different as Goku was worried that fusing with Hurcle would actually make him weaker, it’s a finite boost.
Goten and Trunks should be 2-C in base form which in return scaled to Teen Gohan and the rest of the cast. It literally doesn’t work.

At best we negate anyone scaling to 2-C off of Buu downscaling and just leave it to Buuhan and Vegito.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

It does matter when your only example is the one time where the method is the most different

False equivalence. You also need to understand that they can both be 2-C and also not be close in power to each other. That's literally the case with any tier from High 3-A onwards, because the AP value is infinite

You know he’s 2-C because of the level of his feat right? The degree of which he was going to destroy the universe is what makes him this strong, so someone pulling off a similar feat but the size of a door is not remotely close to a level of power equal to 2-C.

 

[CloverDragon03]

You know he’s 2-C because of the level of his feat correct? The degree of which he was going to destroy the universe is what makes him this strong, so someone literally pulling off a similar feat but the size of a door is not remotely close to that level of power equal to 2-C.

Attack Potency =/= Destructive Capacity

Vegito was already SSJ during Buu’s rage amp, what’re you talking about? You seem to be missing what I’m saying.

I forgor

My point still stands though that Super Vegito = 50x Base Vegito > Rage Buuhan

These finite multipliers can depict infinite level of increase via showings and statements.

I disagree with this. If it's a finite multiplier, it stays finite. I don't care if it has infinite power showings, that just means the form it multiplies off of also has that level of power

That said, I'm understanding the argument's rationale now. But I wholly disagree with the removal of the Post-Vegito Division keys, as the Goku and Vegeta of those keys have showings significantly above what they had before, even if only taking Kid Buu into account

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Disagree, cause goku, when he gets out, can whoop up super buu

Ye but that's Kid Buu fight SSJ3 Goku, the Goku in the scene above (in Super Buu's body) was still lying to Bejita about his strength hence the reveal later

For what it's worth if downscaling standards somehow constitutes them being 2-C regardless, I won't contest that. Just vehemently against using Base Goku and Vegeta being stronger than Super Buu as reasoning for 2-C Base Saiyans

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Attack Potency =/= Destructive Capacity

That’s only the case when discussing the relative power of an attack and the area of effect it covers.
When it comes to something like a shockwave DC is literally what determine it’s strength and this is no different.
DC is what makes this feat different degrees as the feat is literally him destroying a wide area.

I forgor

My point still stands though that Super Vegito = 50x Base Vegito > Rage Buuhan

And Ssjb Goku is 50x ssj god which is infinite in power yet he grows stronger without being infinitely superior. How is this possible without the finite boost being a higher level of infinity?

I disagree with this. If it's a finite multiplier, it stays finite. I don't care if it has infinite power showings, that just means the form it multiplies off of also has that level of power

And again, this create inconsistencies and completely contradicts what our tiering of the characters say. You either accept that these multipliers aren’t the best demonstration of finite power increases or you remove all the scaling altogether.

That said, I'm understanding the argument's rationale now. But I wholly disagree with the removal of the Post-Vegito Division keys, as the Goku and Vegeta of those keys have showings significantly above what they had before, even if only taking Kid Buu into account

Post Division can stay, whatever, but anyone other than that version of goku and vegeta should not scale whatsoever.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

With the way infinity work Ssj Vegito couldn’t have went from slightly weaker than the vice shout to overpowering it slightly, any increase over infinity cannot be greater than infinity if its finite. Meaning a 50x multiplier would not make him any stronger, as he’s still in the same pool of infinity. The only way this can work is if we treat the finite levels of increases as nothing and work with them on a case by case basis.

Base Vegito= finite, Ssj=infinite>50x. Sum like that.

 

[CloverDragon03]

And Ssjb Goku is 50x ssj god which is infinite in power yet he grows stronger without being infinitely superior. How is this possible without the finite boost being a higher level of infinity?

We literally don't even accept that SSB = 50x SSG so this is kind of a moot point

And again, this create inconsistencies and completely contradicts what our tiering of the characters say. You either accept that these multipliers aren’t the best demonstration of finite power increases or you remove all the scaling altogether.

I'm talking in a general case. If a character with infinite power achieved that power with a boost stated to be a finite power boost, then their base form would also have infinite power. Simple as that

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

We literally don't even accept that SSB = 50x SSG so this is kind of a moot point

I'm talking in a general case. If a character with infinite power achieved that power with a boost stated to be a finite power boost, then their base form would also have infinite power. Simple as that

We do accept SSJB is 50x SSG

Also if Post division 2-C stays it doesnt really affect any of the profiles since gotenks and gohan don’t have profiles

 

[Stefano4444]

Just Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta in this case. Super Saiyan forms are explicitly finite boosts.

While normally i don't have issues with such scaling, the moment we deal with Tier 2 its an another kettle of fish, it far harder to justify such large backscaling and jumps of power be treated as finite (or at least they were not implied to be infinite) its no way a good justification, otherwise Demigod Kratos/Volume 1 Dante would be already Low 1-C.

But fine, if Base Goku and Base Vegeta scaling to 2-C its trully legit then Post Division Keys will have to stay, however such scaling will need to be restricted to just them and Kid Buu, everybody else need to be kicked out to that tier.

Also if Post division 2-C stays it doesnt really affect any of the profiles since gotenks and gohan don’t have profiles

Majin Buu Toei do exist, Super Buu Key need to be rewrote with him only reaching 2-C after absorbing Gohan.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

We literally don't even accept that SSB = 50x SSG so this is kind of a moot point

That wasn’t the point I was making. Point is, infinity cannot have finite boosts and the only way it can is by exceeding infinity infinitely.

I'm talking in a general case. If a character with infinite power achieved that power with a boost stated to be a finite power boost, then their base form would also have infinite power. Simple as that

But if same character while being infinity can grow greater than infinity by a finite degree then it completely disregards our understanding of infinity.

Especially when we know finite characters have reached infinity through finite means (training overtime etc). It’s just different and fiction so it just works.

 

[CloverDragon03]

While normally i don't have issues with such scaling, the moment we deal with Tier 2 its an another kettle of fish, it far harder to justify such large backscaling and jumps of power be treated as finite (or at least they were not implied to be infinite) its no way a good justification, otherwise Demigod Kratos/Volume 1 Dante would be already Low 1-C.

But fine, if Base Goku and Base Vegeta scaling to 2-C its trully legit then Post Division Keys will have to say, however such scaling will need to be restricted to just them and Kid Buu, everybody else need to be kicked out to that tier.

Idk much about other verses but I say this especially with the case of Goku and Vegeta since, for instance, SSJ is an explicit 50x multiplier and SSJ2 is a >10x multiplier.

To me, the characters that would be 2-C are Vegito, Buuhan, Post-Division Goku, Post-Division Vegeta, and Kid Buu

 

[CloverDragon03]

But if same character while being infinity can grow greater than infinity by a finite degree then it completely disregards our understanding of infinity.

Especially when we know finite characters have reached infinity through finite means (training overtime etc). It’s just different and fiction so it just works.

As you've said, it's fiction so we kinda just have to make do with what we've got, and imo it's not a good idea to just... ignore stated multipliers

 

[TimmyTurnero]

In my honest opinion, unless we remove all of the scaling because it makes no sense, we need to upgrade Fat Buu to 2-C, Gotenks before training to 2-C, Goten and Trunks to 2-C, Base Gohan to 2-C, dabura to 2-C, Teen Gohan to 2-C, Goku cell saga to 2-C, and Cell to 2-C. Maybe the Cell jrs too, idk.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

In my honest opinion, unless we remove all of the scaling because it makes no sense, we need to upgrade Fat Buu to 2-C, Gotenks before training to 2-C, Goten and Trunks to 2-C, Base Gohan to 2-C, dabura to 2-C, Teen Gohan to 2-C, Goku cell saga to 2-C, and Cell to 2-C. Maybe the Cell jrs too, idk.

Wtf why would goten and trunks and teen gohan all be 2-C?

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Wtf why would goten and trunks and teen gohan all be 2-C?

All scaling from Buu.
The wiki treats Buuhan absorption as linear, so Fat Buu would also downscale which would scale to Gotenks pre training which would scale to base Goten and Trunks due to the multiplier being linear.
Base Gohan is equal to if not stronger than Base Goten, and this base Gohan is no stronger than teen Gohan.
Teen Gohan scales to Cell and Goku (to some degree). This would also scale to the Cell Jrs which would scale Trunks Vegeta and Piccolo.

 

[TiltedFN]

All scaling from Buu.
The wiki treats Buuhan absorption as linear, so Fat Buu would also downscale which would scale to Gotenks pre training which would scale to base Goten and Trunks due to the multiplier being linear.
Base Gohan is equal to if not stronger than Base Goten, and this base Gohan is no stronger than teen Gohan.
Teen Gohan scales to Cell and Goku (to some degree). This would also scale to the Cell Jrs which would scale Trunks Vegeta and Piccolo.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Maybe just remove Buu's absorptions being linear as an added change

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Maybe just remove Buu's absorptions being linear as an added change

This can save everything. This way everyone will be solar system level and only Buuhan and above will be 2-C.

 

[CloverDragon03]

This can save everything. This way everyone will be solar system level and only Buuhan and above will be 2-C.

Afaik some characters would be 3-B (starting from SSJ3 Goku pre-Division) but yeah, pretty much

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Afaik some characters would be 3-B (starting from SSJ3 Goku pre-Division) but yeah, pretty much

Why 3-B.

 

[Damage3245]

Why 3-B.

SSJ3 Goku has a 3-B feat in the Janemba movie.

Although I don't know why this would scale to pre-Division Goku if we're keeping the post-Division Goku key.

EDIT: Ah, I see now, somehow it is squashed into the middle of the Buu arc when Innocent Buu is around.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

well that works.