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((SPOILERS)) Deltarune Chapter 2 Upgrades/Additions

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Just as a note, the party scaling to Giga Queen's laser seems... suspect to me. They all get knocked down, & it's kinda treated as hopeless.
They survive the laser sure, but they definitely don't fight back on their own; They land in Berdly's roller coaster & get put inside a giant mech that fights & takes hits on their behalf. Even the defeating hit just severs its torso, not hits the Lightners (& Ralsei).
After said mech fights, they don't have other battles that chapter on that route.

So scaling them to Giga Queen's laser seems suspect. Scaling Thrash Machine to it seems sorta okay, other potential issues aside.

As for Kris using SOUL power to attack:
Maybe I wasn't watching clearly, but while the SOUL Kris uses in Yellow Mode to fight Spamton does shoot, it destroys his bullets & such. Does it actually deplete his HP, though?
Not to mention, I don't think harming Spamton is quite enough justification to scale to whoever created the city; Before & after his fights, there's a city skyline, it's just Pacifist Spamton is fought underground & he changes the background, suggesting any cities he makes are illusions.

Plus, unlike Kris's physical attacks, Spamton is much more vulnerable to Magic, considering Noelle finishes off his higher DEF form with just 3 Iceshocks. He was at low HP, but still.
So I guess SOUL damage, Physical damage & Magic damage are different to Spamton? If the Yellow SOUL was damaging him (As opposed to destroying his bullets.), it wasn't making much progress, unlike Kris's physical attacks.
That or Noelle's magic in the Snowgrave route is just WAY higher, even with Iceshocks. (Which, considering what I remember of her stats & equipment, her Magic stat probably WAS higher.)
 
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Oh. There is one thing:
Seam mentions that Shadow Crystals are carried by powerful enemies. Kris is revealed to have one when talking to Seam in Chapter 2, with the apparent justification being that they're invisible but still cast a Shadow.
Kris is also later told that the next enemy with a Shadow Crystal might be unbeatable without a certain item; I've read it's called the Shadow Mantle, but apparently, Seam loses it.
I haven't seen all the exact dialogue for myself.

But the point is, both Jevil & Spamton are grouped together as explicitly being powerful enemies, due to each holding a Shadow Crystal, & the next holder being implied to be nigh-unbeatable without something suggests they may have a progression of power.

This may also make it more suspect to scale other enemies &/or other bosses to them.
Another correlation both have is a theme of freedom in their characters, & the text "The air crackles with freedom." appears in the battles with both Jevil & Spamton.
 
KingPin0422 said:
Hmm... I'll have to see the calcs for myself later, but I have a question for you to answer: why are we assuming that the missiles that Giga Queen shoots at Kris scale to Giga Queen's KE?
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Why would she use a far weaker attack on Kris' Soul? Also, the missiles do more damage than the kicks
KingPin0422 said:
Undertale and Deltarune are different worlds with different rules according to Toby Fox himself and as shown by multiple things (Monsters having Determination and not having the weakness to killing intent, for instance), so I don't see how we can cross-scale them in any capacity. Even if we do, Frisk isn't comparable to Darkners at all. One is a human who fights people well above their weight class thanks to Determination. The other is a species that has no such power.
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Undertale was an example because there's obviously a connection through the creator. But that applies to virtually any RPG, their scaling is usually regardless of linear stat changes.
KingPin0422 said:
That's... okay, I don't want to seem angry, but how the hell did you come to that conclusion? You know what the word "determination" means, right?
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Conclusion? That's what she said. She said Will, then Determination. Let's remember that Determination might still get treated as a power though.
KingPin0422 said:
Flowey is a bad example. He had Determination extracted from the fallen humans' SOULs injected into him. He didn't generate it on his own.
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You still don't need a Soul to have determination, though. Kris' body might've extracted DT from his soul before ripping it off too, so assuming a soul is necessary is kind of a big assumption.
 
Why do we assume the missiles have the properties of real missiles? The size, the speed, or the destructive potency?
You know, as opposed to being another of the many kinds of bullets.
Ambyu-Lance puts vehicles onto the bullet board. Are we assuming Ambyu-Lance summons cars or ambulances or whatever & that getting hit by them is the equivalent of getting run over?
 
Imaginym said:
Why do we assume the missiles have the properties of real missiles? The size, the speed, or the destructive potency?
You know, as opposed to being another of the many kinds of bullets.
Ambyu-Lance puts vehicles onto the bullet board. Are we assuming Ambyu-Lance summons cars or ambulances or whatever & that getting hit by them is the equivalent of getting run over?
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Oh for the-
We do that to UT's bullets too, we accept lightning-based bullets as actual lightning. Queen is technological, why wouldn't her missiles be treated as real ones? Is the Mecha also "fake tech" then?
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Oh for the-
We do that to UT's bullets too, we accept lightning-based bullets as actual lightning. Queen is technological, why wouldn't her missiles be treated as real ones? Is the Mecha also "fake tech" then?
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Well, if they are real missiles, even if they're as fast as regular ones, they'd be very small ones, given their size relative to the SOUL.
Plus, unlike a lot of UT enemies, Queen has lots of animations for other stuff, unlike the missiles, which we only see in the bullet board, despite her other projectiles (The wheels & the baseballs.) not being on it.
Deltarune is like UT, & unlike it in some ways, but I'm not sure how it is for bullets.

It feels kinda weird, & would have a lot of ramifications for a lot of enemies to assume what they create on the bullet board is real, but I can sort of see a case for it.
 
Imaginym said:
Well, if they are real missiles, even if they're as fast as regular ones, they'd be very small ones, given their size relative to the SOUL.
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Why not scale from the Mecha itself, you know, WHERE IT CAME FROM?
SOUL size is inconsistent.
Imaginym said:
Plus, unlike a lot of UT enemies, Queen has lots of animations for other stuff, unlike the missiles, which we only see in the bullet board, despite her other projectiles (The wheels & the baseballs.) not being on it.
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And that changes things how exactly?
Imaginym said:
Deltarune is like UT, & unlike it in some ways, but I'm not sure how it is for bullets.
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Why?
Imaginym said:
It feels kinda weird, & would have a lot of ramifications for a lot of enemies to assume what they create on the bullet board is real, but I can sort of see a case for it.
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Most of the time it's magic, but this has no excuse, it's literally a technology-based world, or "Cyber World" as described by the chapter's title
 
GodlyCharmander said:
SOUL size is inconsistent.
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Agreed, fair point on this part.
GodlyCharmander said:
And that changes things how exactly?
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I was saying none of her other projectiles use the bullet board, so why assume these are so big when they don't?
GodlyCharmander said:
Most of the time it's magic, but this has no excuse, it's literally a technology-based world, or "Cyber World" as described by the chapter's title
Click to expand...
Technology that attacks the SOUL, when previously, stuff that attacked the SOUL was Magic?
 
Imaginym said:
I was saying none of her other projectiles use the bullet board, so why assume these are so big when they don't?
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We can see the missiles coming out of GIGA Queen's chest, it's at least 4 meters long.
Imaginym said:
Technology that attacks the SOUL, when previously, stuff that attacked the SOUL was Magic?
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What are you talking about? Most physical attacks can do the same.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
We can see the missiles coming out of GIGA Queen's chest, it's at least 4 meters long.

What are you talking about? Most physical attacks can do the same.
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Oh. My mistake. I got confused by them being colourless.
I guess assuming they're of similar size to missiles is reasonable, though, their type & thus, their speed & power seems questionable. Any idea what kind of real world missiles would have similar appearances?

Where were we?
 
I have this "crazy" opinion that people shouldn't talk openly about something they have zero knowledge about.
 
I'm going to calculate the Missiles's Kinetic Energy since we can't have Kris' and co. scaling to Queen's KE
 
Saikou_The_Lewd_King said:
Except the tracks and rollercoaster he makes are clearly physical. Why would we assume those are physical but not the rest?

I'm saying that (if the calc is legit that is) the two Mechs should obviously both be full on Low 7-C. And that if you scale the Party to the mech, they should be Low 7-C.



Flashing for a few seconds is not amp.


Trying to say that this tiny baby buff was enough to buff a 9-B to 8-B when nothing indicates it and that it's heavily contradicted by other sources is the bigger assumption here my guy. You need to have an actual power gap between the characters in order to argue for a level up to be any kind of major buff. And nothing implies that the Ch. 2 enemies are this much stronger than Ch. 1 enemies. Hell if you take the listed levels of the enemies seriously, this idea makes even less sense.


"Kris never used his Soul to do so"

Dude. Closing the Fountains is explicitly done with the SOUL. And opening up a Fountain requires DT. Which is Soul juice.
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^
 
Psychomaster35 said:
They still have the baseball feat, though
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Yeah, but only the Mecha scales to that. Kris, Susie and Ralsei are clearly weaker than the Mecha itself as seen at the end of the battle. They're all helpless against a broken, weakened, and nearly destroyed GIGA Queen.
Mecha's are Low 7-C,
the cast will have to scales to the missiles.
Which I calculated at Large Building Level
 
Except her missiles and flamethrower not only damage Kris, they damage the mech as well, and while they may not be as strong as her final attack which Thrash can survive, they certainly downscale.
 
Psychomaster35 said:
Except her missiles and flamethrower not only damage Kris, they damage the mech as well, and while they may not be as strong as her final attack which Thrash can survive, they certainly downscale.
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The damage the Mecha receive from the Missile is lower than the damage it receives from GIGA Queen's physical blows

Her kicks do 40 damage
The missiles do 30 damage
 
Psychomaster35 said:
Except her missiles and flamethrower not only damage Kris, they damage the mech as well, and while they may not be as strong as her final attack which Thrash can survive, they certainly downscale.
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We have four instances of the heroes being powerless before Giga Queen by themselves:
  1. Upon her introduction, Noelle remarks that Giga Queen is invincible, which is obvious hyperbole, but nonetheless effectively demonstrates the gap in power between Kris/Susie/Ralsei and Giga Queen.
  2. Giga Queen uses a laser attack that instantly knocks down Kris, Susie, Ralsei, and Noelle.
  3. When the heroes go into their fighting position, Queen says very sarcastically that she is evenly matched, only to follow up with "I Hope You Won't Mind If I Don't Hold Back" and then instantly knock them off of the platform with a single fist slam.
  4. Even after being weakened and heavily damaged, Giga Queen effortlessly restrains Kris, Susie, and Ralsei with one hand. This happens even after she runs out of battery.
And also, Kris/Susie/Ralsei fought the regular Queen just moments before Giga Queen showed up, so it doesn't make sense for the mech to apparently only be slightly stronger than Queen when it consistently easily overpowers the heroes and is thought by Noelle to be unbeatable.
 
Is scaling Kris and Co. to the missiles directly OK? But then again, those missiles are attacks from a Low 7-C, sooooo...
 
I still think that Giga Queen should get a higher rating with that one attack she used to One-Shot Thrash after she git her ass kicked by it.
 
I don't think we should scale to the missiles. The mech is way above the party's other feats.

Though it is a bit weird, since you would think the SOUL would be a separate entity from Kris, yet it can be harmed by missiles. The missiles do SOUL damage? Then again, the Thrash Machine mech is a Fusion. I guess the SOUL is taking damage on behalf of its Fused components rather than just Kris, Susie & Ralsei?
 
Can anyone get me a timestamp for the point in the Undertale 6th anniversary stream where Toby Fox states that Kris and Susie are high-schoolers? I need it so that I can try to recalc the feats where we derive 9-B and Subsonic Speed from. It should upgrade them slightly, I think.
 
KingPin0422 said:
Can anyone get me a timestamp for the point in the Undertale 6th anniversary stream where Toby Fox states that Kris and Susie are high-schoolers? I need it so that I can try to recalc the feats where we derive 9-B and Subsonic Speed from. It should upgrade them slightly, I think.
Click to expand...

How old did people think they were before?
 
I personally would presume Kris to not be too young- the game is seemingly a direct parallel to Undertale, which would make Kris a parallel version of Chara, who was seemingly just slightly younger than Asriel. And Asriel in this game is going to college.
 
BatFellow said:
I personally would presume Kris to not be too young- the game is seemingly a direct parallel to Undertale, which would make Kris a parallel version of Chara, who was seemingly just slightly younger than Asriel. And Asriel in this game is going to college.
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This whole comment was pure headcanon.
 
Other than the sourceless high school claim, there is ONE PIECE of info about their ages:

Berdly tells Kris they've had How to Draw Dragons signed out for 2,583 days; 7 years & 28 days.
At home, we can actually find the book in a drawer, & narration says Asriel will never return it.

It seems unlikely that Kris is using Asriel's library card (& unless Berdly is somehow the only librarby staff & is a moron who doesn't check for signatures/photos or any checkouts that might be weird for Kris but not Asriel.) so it was probably Asriel who signed the book out with Kris's library card.

The book has a slightly weird/suggestive cover, based on descriptions. Frankly, I think any good library would have age limitations on signing out a book like that.
Or at least, a minimum age to own a library card.

So Kris is at least the library card acquirement age + 7 years & 28 days, & it's been at least that long since Asriel left.
GodlyCharmander said:
Toriel's mention that they will be going to college like Asriel in the near future means that they are a high school student, and therefore probably between 15 and 18 years old.
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"Someday soon you will be going off to university as well..."

IMHO, the wording implies a bigger difference.
GodlyCharmander said:
Also, pretty sure Kris knows how to drive on Chapter 2, making them probably 16.
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Why is that? If it's Queen's car, I thought they were only a passenger. She has at least 1 Swatch with her, no?
 
Imaginym said:
"Someday soon you will be going off to university as well..."

IMHO, the wording implies a bigger difference.
Click to expand...
"Someday soon"
It doesn't. Also, a 2-3 year gap is a big enough difference with this wording.
Imaginym said:
Why is that? If it's Queen's car, I thought they were only a passenger. She has at least 1 Swatch with her, no?
Click to expand...
No. She tells Kris to steer. Kris is probably 16yo.
 
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