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((SPOILERS)) Deltarune Chapter 2 Upgrades/Additions

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It may be notable that Noelle is stated to get stronger each time they win a battle by freezing the enemy.
Also, IIRC, Noelle's max & current HP increases by 4 with each such battle, & Iceshock becomes able to do more damage; Presumably, her other stats go up.
It isn't stated that Kris gets stronger at such times, but he gains 2 HP, although his max HP doesn't change.

This may be Statisistics Manipulation/Amplification, & maybe a very Limited form of Regeneration/Healing, &/or Accelerated Development. I don't know if it triggers for non-ice KOs.

Noelle also acts in a trance while wearing the Thorn Ring necessary to cast Snowgrave (It costs 200% TP otherwise.).

There's also some interesting numbers: She was able to KO "Genocide" Route Spamton Neo's 2nd form with 3 attacks that did about 700 damage each. This defeats him, & AFAIK, he has at least 6% of his Max HP in his 2nd form. Also, Spamton has statedly increased DEF, taking only about 10 damage from Kris's sword attacks. But this is likely because Noelle uses Magic for her Ice Attacks, so she bypasses Spamton's Physical DEF with Magic.

As the Secret Boss in Pacifist, Spamton Neo is fought by Kris, Ralsei & Susie, though there's set up involving giving him a disc & tying him to strings, so it's unsure if Pacifist Secret Boss & "Genocide" Boss Spamton are comparable.
But if they are, 3 hits of Snowgrave route Noelle's Magic can KO a foe comparable to Kris, Ralsei & Susie who's at at least 6% of his Max HP, AFAIK.

Similarly, she can OHKO Berdly with Snowgrave. Though, we should note that she doesn't seem to recognize she did it, & takes repeated prompting to try at all, denying that she knows the spell.

Her equipment should be accounted for; IIRC, she has something that increases Graze Time effects or such, & the Thorn Ring halves the TP cost of Ice Attacks. Also, she's implied to have a 1 time Sealing, considering what seemed to happen to the shopkeeper she got the Freeze Ring from.... But since he likely already occupies the ring, it may not be combat useable Sealing.

She has Creation; When Defending, she makes a spiky Ice Wall in front of herself.

Sleep Mist puts to Sleep/SPARES all tired enemies, & Heal Prayer seems to heal 5 HP per 1 Point of Magic she has, but that may just be game mechanics. It's probably the same spell as Ralsei uses to heal Susie's injury after they fall into the garbage dump. IDK if we should scale her above with her Magic Stat.

Noelle can also jump great distances when frightened by mice, though she doesn't show this agility much otherwise, & overcomes her fear of Mice.
She can also seemingly use her Ice to Freeze Switches.
 
Evaluated and accepted.

Also, near the end of the fight when she does her final attack, she unleashes a massive baseball at Mach 5 which the Thrash Mech manages to overpower. You can find the calc here.
Holy shit.
Yeah, that's clearly far stronger than her average attacks, which Kris' Soul can handle. Maybe the Mecha scale to the Low 7-C feat, while Kris and the rest scale to the 8-B KE.
 
It may be notable that Noelle is stated to get stronger each time they win a battle by freezing the enemy.
Also, IIRC, Noelle's max & current HP increases by 4 with each such battle, & Iceshock becomes able to do more damage; Presumably, her other stats go up.
It isn't stated that Kris gets stronger at such times, but he gains 2 HP, although his max HP doesn't change.

This may be Statisistics Manipulation/Amplification, & maybe a very Limited form of Regeneration/Healing, &/or Accelerated Development. I don't know if it triggers for non-ice KOs.

Noelle also acts in a trance while wearing the Thorn Ring necessary to cast Snowgrave (It costs 200% TP otherwise.).

There's also some interesting numbers: She was able to KO "Genocide" Route Spamton Neo's 2nd form with 3 attacks that did about 700 damage each. This defeats him, & AFAIK, he has at least 6% of his Max HP in his 2nd form. Also, Spamton has statedly increased DEF, taking only about 10 damage from Kris's sword attacks. But this is likely because Noelle uses Magic for her Ice Attacks, so she bypasses Spamton's Physical DEF with Magic.

As the Secret Boss in Pacifist, Spamton Neo is fought by Kris, Ralsei & Susie, though there's set up involving giving him a disc & tying him to strings, so it's unsure if Pacifist Secret Boss & "Genocide" Boss Spamton are comparable.
But if they are, 3 hits of Snowgrave route Noelle's Magic can KO a foe comparable to Kris, Ralsei & Susie who's at at least 6% of his Max HP, AFAIK.

Similarly, she can OHKO Berdly with Snowgrave. Though, we should note that she doesn't seem to recognize she did it, & takes repeated prompting to try at all, denying that she knows the spell.

Her equipment should be accounted for; IIRC, she has something that increases Graze Time effects or such, & the Thorn Ring halves the TP cost of Ice Attacks. Also, she's implied to have a 1 time Sealing, considering what seemed to happen to the shopkeeper she got the Freeze Ring from.... But since he likely already occupies the ring, it may not be combat useable Sealing.

She has Creation; When Defending, she makes a spiky Ice Wall in front of herself.

Sleep Mist puts to Sleep/SPARES all tired enemies, & Heal Prayer seems to heal 5 HP per 1 Point of Magic she has, but that may just be game mechanics. It's probably the same spell as Ralsei uses to heal Susie's injury after they fall into the garbage dump. IDK if we should scale her above with her Magic Stat.

Noelle can also jump great distances when frightened by mice, though she doesn't show this agility much otherwise, & overcomes her fear of Mice.
She can also seemingly use her Ice to Freeze Switches.
Everyone should get Accelerated Development, as ANY K.O makes them stronger, with Noelle is even more notable and better than Kris' development.
 
As someone with little to no calc knowledge, would the missiles/flames themselves be worth calcing?
 
Personally I still suggest

Kris: Light World | Chapter 1 | Chapter 2

Susie and Ralsei: Chapter 1 | Chapter 2

Noelle and Berdly get a single key, with a note on Noelle's page explaining Snowgrave.

Queen: Queen | Giga Queen
 
And I agree to Low 7-C being exclusive to the mechs, while the main cast scales to the 8-B feat
 
Hm, so what would we want to do for the keys, if anything?
Nothing at all, maybe add "Small Town Level with the Mecha" at the end of Chapter 2's Key.

An example would be:

Kris

Attack Potency: Human Level (Is a teenager), Street Level with the knife. Unknown via Creation and Environment Destruction (created a Dark Fountain which forms a Dark World, albeit its size is unknown) | Wall Level+ (Can fight those who can harm him) | City Block Level (Can survive GIGA Queen's missiles without much trouble), Small Town Level with the Mecha (Stronger than GIGA Queen's Final Attack)
 
Do we consider their Accelerated Development to activate during any time than on the "Snowgrave" Route or when otherwise FIGHTing enemies?
Are there justifications for them having Accelerated Development when not using FIGHT or Act to make enemies LOST, run away or Frozen?
 
Would Thrash not be a profile of its own, or maybe a weapon profile? It has three pilots, would we really need to add that to all three profiles?
 
1. What the **** is up with this Queen scaling. You're slapping a generic 8-B via size, without calcs from what I see, based from tanking her generic fire attack. Yet you have Queen herself be Low 7-C? What the heck?

2. The power gap between Chapter 1 and 2 is absolutely not big enough to warrant a tier jump. It's literally just one level. One. Even though Kris after an entire Genocide route still gets stopped by Spamton, who had no power increase compared to the normal route. Hell, Spamton very heavily implies he's weaker than Jevil in base.

3. I'd very much wager that sealing the Dark Fountains scales to Kris in the Dark World. The power to create/destroy those Fountains come from their SOUL. And well, Kris directly weaponizes their SOULs. Both by amping up Susie and Ralsei and by firing BIG SHOTS against Spamton.

4. Even if the above isn't something you agree with, Spamton's reality warping allowed him to create and destroy an entire City in his image.
 
1. Both of those tiers have been discussed in the thread, and the calcs are linked in the OP as of a few minutes ago. The Low 7-C comes from a move that is clearly more powerful than the rest of Queen's moveset, and is only taken by Thrash, not Kris.

2. Something to discuss. That one level still has clear signs of powering up Kris and Co.

3. Seems more like Environmental Destruction than AP, it's not really an attack with the soul, more so just sealing/erasure.

4. Worth looking into.
 
To be fair, if Thrash overpowered and withstood the force of said baseball with just one punch, that would be confusing to rate Thrash Low 7-C but only call Giga Queen “8-B, Low 7-C with her final attack” since they can physically trade blows with each other, and the reason Giga Queen was oneshot by her giant baseball was only because she was low on health, whereas she takes her other baseballs sent back to her fine.
 
1. That's not how it ******* works. There is no amp. There is absolutely nothing that indicates that Queen gets any more powerful when doing that slightly more impressive move. The Mech can take that move, and every other attack from Queen's Mech damages the party's mech as well. It's not an attack thousands of times stronger than the other ones. Plus the party take a laser from her directly before the fight anyway. Also I do not see any calc for 8-B in the OP. Only "8-B via size".

2. My dude powering up by one level does not make you thousands of times stronger than before. I just showed you plenty of counter-evidence to that. Kris leveling up in the Weirdoute does not allow them to atomize Spamton in their fight. It's a amp, sure, but not that big of one. Absolutely not enough to cover from 9-B to 8-B.

3. Kris creating a Dark World by itself is ED yes. But their soul still has the power required to do such a feat. And said soul then directly attacks Spamton and co. If Kris put anywhere near their full power into fighting this threat they're canonically terrified of, it should scale.
 
Rewatched the scene, there definitely isn't enough info to say that the city in the background was created and destroyed by Spamton. It could be illusions rather than reality warping/creation for all we know.
 
"I realize that perhaps the sizes of the mechs require a calc to get an exact AP yield, but I will use 8-B as an estimate. EDIT: Calced."

There's where I linked, I apologize for not making it as noticeable. I need to clean up the OP anyways, as new info can come in though discussion.
 
1. That's not how it ******* works. There is no amp. [...]
We see her power-up, actually. And chill.
There's a calc for her 8-B, that's by KE alone. The cast scales to that, she scales to the Thrash.
2. My dude powering up by one level does not make you thousands of times stronger than before. I just showed you plenty of counter-evidence to that. Kris leveling up in the Weirdoute does not allow them to atomize Spamton in their fight. It's a amp, sure, but not that big of one. Absolutely not enough to cover from 9-B to 8-B.
This is assuming a lot of things:
  • LV 1 to LV 2 is not a giant amp, despise you having no frame of reference to say so.
  • LVs are a linear amp.
  • Spamton fighting 3 on 1 is the same as him fighting Kris 1 on 1.

you can't quite prove any of these points, nor are you providing evidence to explain why this doesn't work. Again, LVs don't have to be linear whatsoever, and on top of that, you do not get to Level 3 before the fight, you get to Level 3 AFTER beating him.
You can theoretically go back after you beat the Queen, but again, it's not linear.
3. Kris creating a Dark World by itself is ED yes. But their soul still has the power required to do such a feat.
Kris never used his Soul to do so.
And said soul then directly attacks Spamton and co. If Kris put anywhere near their full power into fighting this threat they're canonically terrified of, it should scale.
Not really.
 
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Except the tracks and rollercoaster he makes are clearly physical. Why would we assume those are physical but not the rest?

I'm saying that (if the calc is legit that is) the two Mechs should obviously both be full on Low 7-C. And that if you scale the Party to the mech, they should be Low 7-C.



Flashing for a few seconds is not amp.


Trying to say that this tiny baby buff was enough to buff a 9-B to 8-B when nothing indicates it and that it's heavily contradicted by other sources is the bigger assumption here my guy. You need to have an actual power gap between the characters in order to argue for a level up to be any kind of major buff. And nothing implies that the Ch. 2 enemies are this much stronger than Ch. 1 enemies. Hell if you take the listed levels of the enemies seriously, this idea makes even less sense.


"Kris never used his Soul to do so"

Dude. Closing the Fountains is explicitly done with the SOUL. And opening up a Fountain requires DT. Which is Soul juice.
 
It's a beautiful day outside
Birds are singing, flowers are blooming
On days like this, CRTs like this
SHOULD BE BURNING IN HELL

Anyways I agree with Saikou
 
Except the tracks and rollercoaster he makes are clearly physical. Why would we assume those are physical but not the rest?

I'm saying that (if the calc is legit that is) the two Mechs should obviously both be full on Low 7-C. And that if you scale the Party to the mech, they should be Low 7-C.



Flashing for a few seconds is not amp.


Trying to say that this tiny baby buff was enough to buff a 9-B to 8-B when nothing indicates it.
The feats indicate it.
and that it's heavily contradicted by other sources
Can you list everything? You're just talking.
Also, if we take contradictions at face value, can we make Susie and co human level because she got seriously hurt by falling 3 meters?
is the bigger assumption here my guy.
Not really, I have evidence to back it up.

You need to have an actual power gap between the characters in order to argue for a level up to be any kind of major buff.
LV 1 to LV 2 is a power gap.
And nothing implies that the Ch. 2 enemies are this much stronger than Ch. 1 enemies.
Outside of their LV gap, of course.
Hell if you take the listed levels of the enemies seriously, this idea makes even less sense.
How so?
Even the weakest enemy has a higher level.
"Kris never used his Soul to do so"

Dude. Closing the Fountains is explicitly done with the SOUL.
That's sealing, a Hax.
And opening up a Fountain requires DT. Which is Soul juice.
"Requires" is headcanon territory, we LITERALLY see the kid rip out his Soul before making a fountain, therefore it doesn't scale to his Soul. Simples as that.
 
People don't realize Toby can make his characters as strong as he wants. By that Logic, even 9-A would be absurd because it's a 5x amp and they could only leave 9-B on chapter 201. Lmao
 
I'm mostly confused why everyone is sticking to 'he/him' for Kris when the game has been consistent about 'they,' even in scenes with characters who should know Kris's gender like Susie and Toriel.
 
Roulx Kaard could damage and take hits from Ch. 2 Kris and Ralsei, so I don't think the Ch. 2 enemies are that much stronger than the Ch. 1 enemies.
 
How so?
Even the weakest enemy has a higher level.
The thing is, the characters' stats between Ch. 1 and Ch. 2 are still very close to each other: firstly, Head Hathies have 5 ATK compared to several Ch. 2 enemies having 8 ATK, which is not a large difference at all; secondly, Poppups have 3 DEF and Maice have 2 DEF while all Ch. 1 enemies have 5 DEF, and the main cast does not individually one-shot those enemies; thirdly, said main cast does not have drastically different stats themselves - for example, Kris has 10 base ATK throughout Ch. 1 and reaches 14 base ATK at the end of Ch. 2; fourthly, refer to what the post above me said.
"Requires" is headcanon territory, we LITERALLY see the kid rip out his Soul before making a fountain, therefore it doesn't scale to his Soul. Simples as that.
I mean, Queen literally states that Lightners need a certain level of Determination to create Dark Fountains, and there are statements repeatedly referencing "Will" (identified by Queen as Determination) as something encompassed by the SOUL:

(Ralsei)
See that heart, Kris? That's your SOUL, the culmination of your being! Within, it contains your WILL, your COMPASSION... And the FATE of the world.
(Library book)
The SOUL has long been called many things. The font of our compassion. The source of our will. The container of our "life force." But even now, the true function of it is unknown.

That said, the SOUL we see and control throughout the entire game is unlikely to actually be Kris' SOUL in the first place, IMO. After all, they can rip it out with no negative repercussions and then do their own thing without the player being able to input, and they still make that Dark Fountain at the end of Chapter 2 even after removing the SOUL, not to mention the many, many other clues that the player is a separate entity from Kris. So, I don't really disagree with Kris not scaling to "their" SOUL, since I don't see it as actually being their SOUL.



If I can say something else: why wouldn't Kris be 7-B via Creation/Environmental Destruction/whatever it is? The second Dark World is literally a city, and a pretty big one at that. I'd wager the first one is also around that size, though it would need to be calced.
 
The thing is, the characters' stats between Ch. 1 and Ch. 2 are still very close to each other: firstly, Head Hathies have 5 ATK compared to several Ch. 2 enemies having 8 ATK, which is not a large difference at all; secondly, Poppups have 3 DEF and Maice have 2 DEF while all Ch. 1 enemies have 5 DEF, and the main cast does not individually one-shot those enemies; thirdly, said main cast does not have drastically different stats themselves - for example, Kris has 10 base ATK throughout Ch. 1 and reaches 14 base ATK at the end of Ch. 2; fourthly, refer to what the post above me said.
This is fair. Not the ATK and LV argument, again, being numerically close is not an excuse to say it doesn't work, it's not the first time a fictional media has non-linear numbers to represent character's strength, Power Levels in DB, or OFA %'s are a prime example.
But the DEF stat is a fair argument. Still... This is an RPG though, are we going to lock them down at a certain tier because of their stats? Every feat will be considered outlier because "the stats are not far enough from the earlier chapter"?
Undertale has LV 1 Frisk progressively getting stronger with little to NO change in their stats because of their SOUL alone, so I don't know bro.
I mean, Queen literally states that Lightners need a certain level of Determination to create Dark Fountains, and there are statements repeatedly referencing "Will" (identified by Queen as Determination) as something encompassed by the SOUL:

(Ralsei)

(Library book)
Queen actually separates "Will" and "Determination" in her dialogue.
You don't need a SOUL to have Determination, isn't that right Flowey?
That said, the SOUL we see and control throughout the entire game is unlikely to actually be Kris' SOUL in the first place, IMO. (...)
Well, that's headcanon territory right here...
Kris ripped out his Soul and created a fountain. That's all the information we have.


If I can say something else: why wouldn't Kris be 7-B via Creation/Environmental Destruction/whatever it is? The second Dark World is literally a city, and a pretty big one at that. I'd wager the first one is also around that size, though it would need to be calced.
He should be.
 
I'm mostly confused why everyone is sticking to 'he/him' for Kris when the game has been consistent about 'they,' even in scenes with characters who should know Kris's gender like Susie and Toriel.
I interpret it the same as Frisk's scenario, and so does a lot of people. He is left with no official gender, and Toby is perfectly okay with someone calling Kris a "he" as shown in the 6y anniversary stream not long ago.
 
Roulx Kaard could damage and take hits from Ch. 2 Kris and Ralsei, so I don't think the Ch. 2 enemies are that much stronger than the Ch. 1 enemies.
Roulx Kaard never fought them before why would that prove they aren't much stronger.
 
Roulx Kaard never fought them before why would that prove they aren't much stronger.
If Roulx Kaard could casually One-Shot Kris and co, why did he try to defeat them with King Round and immediately shift his alliance when it lost?
 
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This is fair. Not the ATK and LV argument, again, being numerically close is not an excuse to say it doesn't work, it's not the first time a fictional media has non-linear numbers to represent character's strength, Power Levels in DB, or OFA %'s are a prime example.
Hmm... I'll have to see the calcs for myself later, but I have a question for you to answer: why are we assuming that the missiles that Giga Queen shoots at Kris scale to Giga Queen's KE?
But the DEF stat is a fair argument. Still... This is an RPG though, are we going to lock them down at a certain tier because of their stats? Every feat will be considered outlier because "the stats are not far enough from the earlier chapter"?
Undertale has LV 1 Frisk progressively getting stronger with little to NO change in their stats because of their SOUL alone, so I don't know bro.
Undertale and Deltarune are different worlds with different rules according to Toby Fox himself and as shown by multiple things (Monsters having Determination and not having the weakness to killing intent, for instance), so I don't see how we can cross-scale them in any capacity. Even if we do, Frisk isn't comparable to Darkners at all. One is a human who fights people well above their weight class thanks to Determination. The other is a species that has no such power.
Queen actually separates "Will" and "Determination" in her dialogue.
That's... okay, I don't want to seem angry, but how the hell did you come to that conclusion? You know what the word "determination" means, right?
You don't need a SOUL to have Determination, isn't that right Flowey?
Flowey is a bad example. He had Determination extracted from the fallen humans' SOULs injected into him. He didn't generate it on his own.
Well, that's headcanon territory right here...
Kris ripped out his Soul and created a fountain. That's all the information we have.
...if you don't mind, I'd like to come back to this later.
Roulx Kaard never fought them before why would that prove they aren't much stronger.
First off, he was one of King's subjects. If he was thousands of times stronger than his master, he would have no reason to fear him or serve him. Secondly, if he could have just one-shot the main cast back then, then why did he rely on K. Round to defeat them and switch sides when that plan fails?
 
First off, he was one of King's subjects. If he was thousands of times stronger than his master, he would have no reason to fear him or serve him. Secondly, if he could have just one-shot the main cast back then, then why did he rely on K. Round to defeat them and switch sides when that plan fails?
It is shown he likes having someone in charge of him as for the second it could be he doesn't like fighting directly he only did because his goal of getting someone in charge of him means more to him.
 
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