• An important announcement about how to solve problems with your discussion thread notifications, and other important issues.

    Please click here for further information.
  • Important information regarding the linking of images from Fandom wikis.

    Please click here for further information.
  • Important information regarding upcoming advertisements in this forum.

    Please click here for further information.

Spite. No, but 2-C Beerus and Champa.

Status
Not open for further replies.
The other canon CRT is locked, so let's move onto this one, the one with umph.

My arguments

Beerus and Champa were stated to be capable of destroying both Universe 6 and 7 if they were to battle, so their combined efforts would resort in the destruction of two universal space-time continua, which is 2-C. However, because it's a joint effort, they're only listed as Low 2-C, which goes against the rules established in the Tiering System.
Note 1:

Due to the fact that the distance between any given number of universes embedded in higher-dimensional / higher-order spaces is currently unknowable, it is impossible to quantify the numerical gap between each one of the subtiers in Tier 2. As such, it is not allowed to upgrade such a character based solely on multipliers. For example, someone twice as strong as a Low 2-C character would still be Low 2-C, and someone infinitely more powerful than a 2-C would not be 2-A.
If upgrading characters between Tier 2 subtiers through multiplication isn't allowed, why is downgrading characters through division allowed? Logically, the inverse operation wouldn't be allowed as well, but it's used for Beerus and Champa. You could attempt to argue that in Dragon Ball, you can cut their 2-C in half to get Low 2-C based off of this scene, or one of the visual representations of the Multiverse, but if were the case, then couldn't you argue that SSB Kaio-ken Goku after his second limit break in the Tournament of Power is 2-C, since it's two-times (with the Kaio-ken multipliers being accepted) Low 2-C?

Let's say we did know the distance between Universes 6 and 7, and let's assume it's 1.96245897e+25 meters. The diameter of the observable universe is 8.7998051e+26 meters (two observables / 2 = one observable, duh), which is larger than the distance between the two universes by 44.8407087x, so you just couldn't downgrade them to Low 2-C by halving their feat.

Potential counterarguments

"Beerus was going to destroy Universe 7, and Champa was going to destroy Universe 6."
This is wrong. Nothing implies that they were going to destroy their respective universes at the same time, it was stated that they would destroy both universes.

"They were going to destroy the universes through the Power of Destruction."
The only evidence for this claim is the fact that the energy dome that surrounded the two of them as they clashed had the same appearance as that of Destruction Energy... which is wrong. That's not how Destruction Energy looks. It's just colored this way because that's how the Gods' energies look. Their energy is purple, whereas the Energy of Destruction is dark purple. Also, the energy "barrier"(?) didn't erase Whis and Vados, who aren't resistant to Existence Erasure, and only caused the floor beneath them to crumble and cave in, which proves this wasn't Destruction Energy, just regular energy.

"It was over time, so it wouldn't be 2-C."
They weren't going to destroy the universes in succession/one by one, so even if it were an over time destruction, it's still significantly affecting and destroying two universal space-time continua, Universes 6 and 7. So yeah, it would still be 2-C. Always thought it was odd they have Low Multiversal range, but not Attack Potency.

"It's literally taking the power of one Low 2-C and combining it with another Low 2-C to do something that equals the value of the 2, which is baseline 2-C."
That's going against the Tiering System rules. Also, see the OP.

"Vados said annihilate not destroy."
an·ni·hi·late

  1. destroy utterly; obliterate.

Conclusions

Because of this, they should be upgraded to 2-C, which would affect the following characters:
Super Saiyan Blue Goku (Post-2nd Ultra Instinct -Sign-), Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta, God of Destruction Mode Toppo, etc., they should all keep their Low 2-C ratings, since they only upscale from Infinite Zamasu, unless suppressed Jiren is considered superior to the Gods of Destruction.

Also, can we please remove all of Beerus' names, with the exception of "Beerus" and "Lord Beerus"? If I recall correctly, he's only referred to by those names in-universe.

Results

Agree: Sir_Ovens, Ican'tthinkof1goodname, LordTracer, DarkDragonMedeus (I believe), Duedate8898, 00potato, Gilad_Hyperstar, Rikimarox2, Anchorchompy, Stefano4444
Disagree:

Inconclusive:
 
Last edited:

Sir_Ovens

Resident Kitchen Appliance
VS Battles
Sysop
11,138
3,063
I surprisingly agree with this. If only to remain consistent with site standards, that feat would in fact be 2-C for both of them individually. Although this may be a unique case since this is the first time such a feat has been performed in more popular fiction. As such, I'm open to ideas.
 
Last edited:
- Kochiarator being considered more solid 2-C than Gogeta Blue
You lost me there.
I went looking through the Dragon Ball verse page for characters who would scale, and I saw Kochiarator in the Fusions section out the corner of my eye, and he just stuck with me.
 
3,787
795
Am I missing something here, why would Koichiarator scale?

Otherwise, I guess I agree, although I believe you forgot Broly in the list of people who’d scale.
 
Kochiarator is just a joke. As for Broly, I feel he'd be "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C" rather than definitively 2-C, since he was stomped by Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta, who is debatably in the same tier as Ultra Instinct Goku, and is probably stronger than Beerus.

Also, is it possible to ping the Knowledgeable Members?
 
3,787
795
But if Beerus is straight 2-C, then Broly being “probably stronger” should make him 2-C as well. Gogeta Blue stomping him just puts Gogeta at a higher degree of 2-C.

Only staff can effectively ping people.
 
3,787
795
Oh, in relation to the part of the OP that mentions suppressed Jiren scaling to the GoDs, he (with some effort) scales above the Universe 7 Genkidama, which could be argued to scale since Belmod was sweating over it even before Goku pushed it with SSBKKx20, one of the GoDs complimented its energy, Champa called it dangerous, and iirc, Belmod directly stated that the Genkidama had worried him for a bit.
 
Oh, in relation to the part of the OP that mentions suppressed Jiren scaling to the GoDs, he (with some effort) scales above the Universe 7 Genkidama, which could be argued to scale since Belmod was sweating over it even before Goku pushed it with SSBKKx20, one of the GoDs complimented its energy, Champa called it dangerous, and iirc, Belmod directly stated that the Genkidama had worried him for a bit.
The Gods weren't worried about it, they were just praising it since it was more than what they expected (1:26). And, Champa asked if Goku resisting the Spirit Bomb was dangerous (2:02). Also, Belmod was never sweating, he was rather nonchalant about the whole thing, in fact.
 
Ah. It seems like Belmod was just shocked it even made contact, I guess. I doubt the Universe 7 Spirit Bomb is on the same level as the Gods, seeing as it's made up of energy from Team Universe 7 in their base forms.
 
3,787
795
That’s not how the Genkidama works though. By that logic, the one on Namek shouldn’t have been able to harm Freeza since it was mainly made up of base Goku, Piccolo, Gohan and Krillin’s energy.
 
3,787
795
Why would they be Low 2-C? I thought the Universe 7 Spirit Bomb was currently 3-A.
The Genkidama should be Low 2-C, considering that Jiren, y’know, actually exerted effort in pushing it back.

Your logic would mean C-17 + C-18 + Base Freeza + Earthlings + Base Goku + Base Gohan + Base Piccolo is enough to make Jiren actually try somewhat, when it absolutely isn’t.
 
So, I guess the energy received is an exponential increase. But even then, once Jiren decided to put in effort, he managed to easily push it back, even after Goku used Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken x20.
 
3,787
795
Actually he put in some effort before, when he put two hands out and we see what looks like a little energy wave. Then Goku uses Kaioken and launches the Genkidama back, then Jiren puts in more effort and slowly overpowers Goku.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

The Sword and Shield of AKM Sama
VS Battles
Sysop
16,675
6,967
Actually, upgrading characters via multipliers is what's taboo, but dividing feats is sometimes considered okay in lack of better options. Like for example, you did a 30 megaton explosion feat with 10 punches, logically it should be more than 3 megatons each, but the fact that it required more than one makes fully scaling to the 30 megatons outright is iffy. But it's against the rules to say that withstanding 10 consecutive hits from 3 megaton punches and treat that as a 30 megaton durability. Same with heating feats, we only use watts for AP, unless the timeframe was less than a second; we just use the full energy yield.

So honestly, this is consistent with our other formulas.
 
3,787
795
Like for example, you did a 30 megaton explosion feat with 10 punches, logically it should be more than 3 megatons each, but the fact that it required more than one makes fully scaling to the 30 megatons outright is iffy.
Here’s the issue with this example. That isn’t the same as the difference between Low 2-C and 2-C. The difference between these tiers is unquantifiable, and you can’t go down to Low 2-C just by being 2x weaker than baseline 2-C. If that were the case, the difference between Low 2-C/2-C would only be 2x.
 
3,030
610
Agree, although would the feat be considered baseline or above baseline? The Living World already is meant to be as big as our universe and the Afterlife is around the same size, both of which exist in their own separated dimension/realm.

So like if destroying Universe 7 count as 2x times above Low 2-C, then destroying Universe 7 and Universe 8 would count as 2x times above 2-C.
 
4,615
334
I want someone to actually try and upgrade the super manga characters, because I feel like they should be upgraded
 
So, we have a bunch of agreements for 2-C DBS God-tiers.

As for the Universe 7 Spirit Bomb thing brought up earlier. 109-110 Jiren is stated by Shin to be more powerful than anyone they've faced before in the scene with the Universe 7 Spirit Bomb, putting him above Infinite Zamasu, and is currently used to scale characters like SSB Goku (post-2nd Ultra Instinct), SSB Evolution Goku, etc. to Low 2-C, since they're able to keep up with a less suppressed Jiren. While Goku was in his base, the Spirit Bomb forced Jiren to use two hands. When Goku used SSB Kaio-ken x10, the Spirit Bomb momentarily resisted Jiren's force and halted. And, after Goku used Kaio-ken x20, Jiren seemed to be "struggling" with it, and had to put in actual effort to force it back. At that point, Goku was unable to control it anymore. Because of that, the Universe 7 Spirit Bomb would scale to Low 2-C, and Super Saiyan Kefla would scale to that as well. SSB Goku (post-Ultra Instinct) wouldn't since, even with Kaio-ken, he was one-shot by her Spirit Bomb-level attack.
 
3,787
795
and Super Saiyan Kefla would scale to that as well. SSB Goku (post-Ultra Instinct) wouldn't since, even with Kaio-ken, he was one-shot by her Spirit Bomb-level attack.
This reminds me of something. SSB Goku (Post-UIO1) could harm SSJ Kefla, but the argument could be made that she just adapted to get stronger (since we saw earlier in the tournament that Caulifla has pretty good adaptation and Kefla’s should be greater) or that she’s a glass cannon (considering that later against UIO2, she stated that his attacks were wimpy, and was later stated to be capable of one-shotting him, but she was still getting launched around by the attacks).

So I think SSJ Kefla should be: 3-A, up to Low 2-C to be the most accurate (also Ikari Broly should be something similar).

Also Jiren should probably be like Low 2-C, up to 2-C in his base key.
 
I don't think you could upgrade him to 2-C. He was bleeding into another timeline, but he wasn't significantly affecting it.

Getting back on topic, though, we have 10 supporting votes, and 0 everything else.
 
5,666
1,260
Here’s the issue with this example. That isn’t the same as the difference between Low 2-C and 2-C. The difference between these tiers is unquantifiable, and you can’t go down to Low 2-C just by being 2x weaker than baseline 2-C. If that were the case, the difference between Low 2-C/2-C would only be 2x.
But it wouldn't? The difference between Low 2-C and 2-C is unquantifiable because we don't know the distances. It's not the same as multiplying baseline Low 2-C by 2. It's being so far into Low 2-C that you need only to double your own power. The reason why you can't reach 2-C via multipliers is due to unquantifiability. But the problem with that is once you hit half of 2-C, that power difference is suddenly no longer unquantifiable. It's now the opposite of that actually.

Again, it's not so much that we're multiplying the baseline for Low 2-C in this highly specific scenario as much as being so far in the tier that you are now a quantifiable power difference away from 2-C.
 
Last edited:
I don't think you could upgrade him to 2-C. He was bleeding into another timeline, but he wasn't significantly affecting it.

Getting back on topic, though, we have 10 supporting votes, and 0 everything else.
I recommend getting more staff opinions since this is a unique case with the current standards standards.

However, I do believe that the OP make sense by using the current standards. The problem is the current wiki standards.

Who would be considered the "baseline" for the scaling chains to start from?
 
Last edited:
3,030
610
Do we actually know if the distance between universes in the DB multiverse is indeed finite? As far i'm aware, nothing like that it was stated in the series.

Aside of The Cube and special travel based techniques like Warp or Instant Trasmission, no one had show to reach other universes with raw speed alone.

And the visual representations of the Multiverse isn't meant to be 100% accurate.
 
971
353
Do we actually know if the distance between universes in the DB multiverse is indeed finite? As far i'm aware, nothing like that it was stated in the series.
We flat out have the spaces shown in-between each Space-Time in the verse, it's not even like it's a mystery.
This is one of the few verses with a cosmology shown to us. Not even just explained, shown.
 
Last edited:
5,399
470
Why doesn’t this place like Dragon Ball?
I believe that because of how popular it is, so many people here are interested in the threads and such, this leads to both more support, scrutiny, and downplay.
It might just be this site’s extremely conservative approach, the sheer number of people with DB opinions, combined with a few other factors, leads to that.
I say this because most of the higher tiered/generally stronger verses are often a bit more obscure then the popular ones. Along with how much scrutiny comics and the HST are given.
 
3,030
610
We flat out have the spaces shown in-between each Space-Time in the verse, it's not even like it's a mystery.
This is one of the few verses with a cosmology shown to us. Not even just explained, shown.
That it just a visual, can you prove that it was mean to be fully accurate and/or on 1:1 scale?

For what we know, that tiny distance could be either as big as the observable universe or even be infinite, currently we don't know.
 
971
353
I'm not targeting anyone when I say this, but come on.

We have a crap ton of proof that their multiverse is separated by a fingernail.

We have a model of it, then we have a flat out canon showing, ATP there's no excuses
 
5,399
470
We have Ovens, DDM, and plenty of knowledgeable non-staff scalers.
We don’t need anything more, Unless you think there is a problem with this, if so say it yourself.
 
5,399
470
No, it might honestly happen again, and it will be hilarious.
It isn’t like we are starting shit when this is blatantly a response to how the last big DBH thread went.
 
13,002
1,840
why is this controversial ? everyone seems to agree
A huge upgrade that’s been brought up several times before in the past, involving many staff and other DB experts, been rejected, and is for one of the most popular series on the site.

I think that answers your question. A bunch of normal users agreeing doesn’t mean insta upgrade time. Heck, I’m neutral to this for the time being and I’m the reason 2-C happened for anyone besides Zen’o in the first place.
 
Last edited:
5,666
1,260
I said this before, I'm not sure why this wasn't accepted prior. Maybe if the people who disagreed in the past can chime in on why they were against 2-C, I'll be more inclined to change my mind. However, the logic here is sound, thus I agree with it.
I never disagreed in the past, but I did give reasoning that never received a comment.
 
479
57

distance is even less than what was calcd above.
and i agree with 2C
 

DarkDragonMedeus

The Sword and Shield of AKM Sama
VS Battles
Sysop
16,675
6,967
To be fair, this is a very controversial topic. But it comes from the Quilted Multiverse debate. Also, Zeno is at least Low 2-C even after the debate gets remade.
 

Warren_Valion

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
7,814
2,531
Quilted Multiverse?

You mean the theory that the universe is infinite and that all possibilities within that can exist do exist at a different point in said space? Like there exists another version of all of us on another Earth 10^10^100 Light years away and stuff like that?

How does that relate to Dragon Ball at all?

Especially considering that Universes in Dragon Ball only have one other universe that is like one another (and they aren't near identical at all).
 
Last edited:
4,286
1,317
The Note on Zeno’s profile seems to reject the notion that DB universes share the same space-time.

Note: We consider the universes in Dragon Ball alternate time-spaces relative to each other, hence why Zen'ō is rated as 2-C, despite the events in the Goku Black Saga showing parallel timelines encompassing the whole of the multiverse.

The reason for this is that Universe 7 by itself has already been shown to contain parallel space-time continuums within its globe, such as the Room of Spirit and Time, which is still affected by time travel; which proves that the new timelines can encompass other space-times as well, and thus the events in the Future Trunks Saga don't prove anything in the way of the universes being physically connected.
 
13,002
1,840
That was mentioned on the timeline destruction thread I made already. I said it there so I’ll say it again here.

Being honest, I’m not seeing how a universe containing smaller scale space-times within itself means the other universes wouldn’t share space-time with each other.
 

Warren_Valion

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
7,814
2,531
For lack of a better word for it, they mean the universes sharing space-time instead of being desperate space-time continuum’s.
Why would this be assumed?

The diagram or demonstration of the universe showcases that the Universe has always been a single space-time continuum with nothing connected to it. From the old Daizenshuu to modern-day Super.

And the multiverse is also showcased in diagrams and explanations from both the anime and the manga, that the bubbles that represent universes aren't connected with one another whatsoever.

I don't see how this assumption was made.


Maybe you can make the argument that paired universes share similar or the same space-time, but all of them? Where is the evidence of this?
 
I agree with the upgrade, I'm not sure how it's only low-2c.

They either get downgraded to 3-A or upgraded to 2C, unless the standards need revising, in which case, a lot of verses need to be revised.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top