Spirit Sign "Massive Touhou Upgrades"

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I find the game mechanics argument hard to believe when Touhou is a series that loves to use game mechanics to represent actual lore; Things like every game mechanic since PCB tying directly into the plot of the game itself, or Remilia not being able to be used on outside stages in the fighting games, or character abilities like Sakuya's time stop or Seija's ability to flip anything being represented in the fights themselves. Why are we assuming that Mayumi and Yoshika are just magically the exceptions to this rule?

Also you seem to be forgetting that immunity negation is an inherently contradictory power; Same goes for shit like Yukari being able to use her death hax on Mokou despite her literally lacking a concept of death. It is by definition the ability to go '**** you' to any semblance of reasonable interactions between abilities, and is very much a scenario where we can't go 'but it doesn't make logical sense'. Like, the resistance negation page itself even says it applies to immunity, I know it makes 0 ******* sense but we DO allow for stuff like this.

What about the soulhax itself is PIS? PIS is when stupid things happen because the plot mandates it; Nothing about the plot of WBaWC requires Mayumi to drop spirit power. The game works equally well if she does drop it or if she doesn't drop it.

 

[Vietthai96]

The game mechanic is not a good counter-argument when spirit was literally listed as in-game lore. However my point still stand with Power Nullification and Resistance Negation. Gonna sleep again lol

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

then vietthai argument stands that its simply potency not negation

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

I think I have an interpretation for that issue.

So, spirit isn't only the soul, but also, the feelings, right?

Well. Even if the aforementioned characters doesn't have a soul, they still has emotions and feelings. These two ideas are related to the spirit, as it was proved. So, with that in mind, then I think the reason they are being affected is because they yet have a feeling to borrow. That being said, then in some way that means it is ignoring the immunity due to not only affecting one thing but many of them. So, yeah, I think that could work too.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

then vietthai argument stands that its simply potency not negation

Yes, and I disagree with that. As I have explained before, we do in fact give resistance negation to characters who overpower immunities with no explicit explanation of how they are doing so. There is no potency of soulhax that can affect a soulless being; However, immunity negation very much is a means of soulhaxing a soulless being.

So, spirit isn't only the soul, but also, the feelings, right?

Well. Even if the aforementioned characters doesn't have a soul, they still has emotions and feelings. These two ideas are related to the spirit, as it was proved. So, with that in mind, then I think the reason they are being affected is because they yet have a feeling to borrow. That being said, then in some way that means it is ignoring the immunity due to not only affecting one thing but many of them. So, yeah, I think that could work too.

Small problem with that. Mayumi is also said to lack desires, so I do think she would qualify for immunity to empathic manipulation as well. I am not opposed to the idea of "to resist spirit manipulation you have to resist every facet of it", but Mayumi does complicate matters a bit.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

also regarding power nullification. they are doing so via reduction of spirit. but that doesn't always apply to all verses some don't have their powers reliant on their spirit. like verses who uses mana, or a different universal energy system. so I have to disagree with that.

Yes, and I disagree with that. As I have explained before, we do in fact give resistance negation to characters who overpower immunities with no explicit explanation of how they are doing so. There is no potency of soulhax that can affect a soulless being; However, immunity negation very much is a means of soulhaxing a soulless being.

that is your interpretation of how they could have bypassed said immunity. you would need proof that they really negated someone's immunity to perform and not simply via pure potency.
also relying on other verse's profile that could be incorrect or may not be similar to the verse you're arguing for is not the way to argue for it

 

[Vietthai96]

Yes, and I disagree with that. As I have explained before, we do in fact give resistance negation to characters who overpower immunities with no explicit explanation of how they are doing so. There is no potency of soulhax that can affect a soulless being; However, immunity negation very much is a means of soulhaxing a soulless being.

Those are bad example lol, nothing suggest they actually negate resistance, like we don't list someone who can bypass normal resistance as resistance negation.
Resistance Negation is the ability to remove an opponent's ability to resist certain effects, allowing the user to then affect them with those abilities. However, simply overwhelming something with Hax stronger than what they can resist normally wouldn't qualify

Have better feat doesn't mean you negate resistance. For example, character A can fate hax Acausal 4 character, it s mean the fate hax have feat of affecting acausal 4 thus normal fate resistance do not work, however there is no resistance negation, due to A doesn't negate fate resistance, it is just his hax is far stronger, more potent

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

also regarding power nullification. they are doing so via reduction of spirit. but that doesn't always apply to all verses some don't have their powers reliant on their spirit. like verses who uses mana, or a different universal energy system. so I have to disagree with that.

That's not really an anti-feat for power null. Plenty of characters have only demonstrated the ability to nullify in-verse powers or power sources, but that doesn't make their power null any less valid. The fact remains that they're nullifying magical powers and that's what matters here. Like, we give Madara power null for nullifying ninjustu despite that not necessarily existing in every verse. Also, verse equalization exists.

that is your interpretation of how they could have bypassed said immunity. you would need proof that they really negated someone's immunity to perform and not simply via pure potency.
also relying on other verse's profile that could be incorrect or may not be similar to the verse you're arguing for is not the way to argue for it

Those are bad example lol, nothing suggest they actually negate resistance, like we don't list someone who can bypass normal resistance as resistance negation.
Resistance Negation is the ability to remove an opponent's ability to resist certain effects, allowing the user to then affect them with those abilities. However, simply overwhelming something with Hax stronger than what they can resist normally wouldn't qualify

Have better feat doesn't mean you negate resistance. For example, character A can fate hax Acausal 4 character, it s mean the fate hax have feat of affecting acausal 4 thus normal fate resistance do not work, however there is no resistance negation, due to A doesn't negate fate resistance, it is just his hax is far stronger, more potent

Please explain to me what level of hax potency is needed to overcome immunity. Type 4 acausality gives resistance, not immunity, so that's a false equivalency. I don't want to come off as insulting but neither of you really seem to understand what immunity is or how it works. The entire point is that, no matter how strong your hax are, you cannot affect someone with immunity to those hax. It's why we have such strict standards on immunity in the first place; It is literally a valid and usable form of NLF.

Like if there's some weird rule I'm overlooking that means overpowering immunity is enough for uncountably infinitely layered hax but not resistance negation? Sure, I can work with that. But the fact of the matter is, we don't do that, but we do give immunity negation for actually ignoring immunities.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Please explain to me what level of hax potency is needed to overcome immunity. Type 4 acausality gives resistance, not immunity, so that's a false equivalency. I don't want to come off as insulting but neither of you really seem to understand what immunity is or how it works. The entire point is that, no matter how strong your hax are, you cannot affect someone with immunity to those hax. It's why we have such strict standards on immunity in the first place; It is literally a valid and usable form of NLF.

Like if there's some weird rule I'm overlooking that means overpowering immunity is enough for uncountably infinitely layered hax but not resistance negation? Sure, I can work with that. But the fact of the matter is, we don't do that, but we do give immunity negation for actually ignoring immunities.

the same level of potency you need to soul hax an Inorganic physiology type 2
or something like mind haxing a robot or soul haxing a robot

It's there in fiction although not very common. there are contradictory feats such as those but the story forces it as it is.
soul haxing a soulless being is like soul haxing a robot and there are literally some character who can do that but they don't list their potency as immunity negation because they do not negate. like how would you negate immunity when clearly it already lacks it unless you yourself gives them what they are missing then haxing them.

another good example is using death hax on type 5 immortality which was argued before on the last touhou crt and was accepted as potency not immunity negation.
another would be people who can tie a concept to a being who are conceptless thus making them have concept that allows one to erase or affect them with. which is rare and isn't assumed normally and is taken as a feat if someone can concept hax the old type 2 NEP

immunity =/= resistance. you can be immune to soul hax for not having a soul but that doesn't mean you have resistance to soul hax. you simply don't have a soul that can be evaluated to have resistance or not

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

the same level of potency you need to soul hax an Inorganic physiology type 2
or something like mind haxing a robot or soul haxing a robot

...Which is also immunity negation. What you're describing is immunity negation.

It's there in fiction although not very common. there are contradictory feats such as those but the story forces it as it is.
soul haxing a soulless being is like soul haxing a robot and there are literally some character who can do that but they don't list their potency as immunity negation because they do not negate. like how would you negate immunity when clearly it already lacks it unless you yourself gives them what they are missing then haxing them.

This isn't exactly helping to prove the idea that potency is a better solution here. Also, I would like to see some examples of those characters, you mentioned. Actually didn't you just say we shouldn't rely on other verse's profiles? Did it really take you no more than an hour to contradict yourself?

another good example is using death hax on type 5 immortality which was argued before on the last touhou crt and was accepted as potency not immunity negation.
another would be people who can tie a concept to a being who are conceptless thus making them have concept that allows one to erase or affect them with. which is rare and isn't assumed normally and is taken as a feat if someone can concept hax the old type 2 NEP

Genuinely, what the hell are you talking about? It was accepted as negation. Immortality negation, yes, but it is functionally identical to immunity negation since Mokou is immune to death hax. It was only really listed as immortality negation because said immunity stemmed from her immortality rather than a separate immunity. But yes, it was immunity negation, and it was accepted as such, so this entire point falls apart.

immunity =/= resistance. you can be immune to soul hax for not having a soul but that doesn't mean you have resistance to soul hax. you simply don't have a soul that can be evaluated to have resistance or not

Except no, we do just treat immunity as the highest possible degree of resistance and not a totally separate thing. Please read the first paragraph on the resistance page.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I went back and checked an old thread semi-related to this topic, and this line from a staff member stood out to me:

"if I have an onscreen feat of being able to deal damage to a being naturally immune to fire with fire, of course that would count as resistance negation"

Not to mention, every other staff in the thread seemed to agree with that notion. So yes, overpowering immunity is resistance negation. Can we please move on from this now?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I went back and checked an old thread semi-related to this topic, and this line from a staff member stood out to me:

"if I have an onscreen feat of being able to deal damage to a being naturally immune to fire with fire, of course that would count as resistance negation"

Not to mention, every other staff in the thread seemed to agree with that notion. So yes, overpowering immunity is resistance negation. Can we please move on from this now?

what they agree on is that resistance negation or which resistance is being negated must be stated otherwise simply slapping resistance negation would lead to nlf that you can somehow negate resistance to other things when you only showcased negging one resistance.

since the added RN will include which specific resistance it is negging then I guess it is fine for this one

That's not really an anti-feat for power null. Plenty of characters have only demonstrated the ability to nullify in-verse powers or power sources, but that doesn't make their power null any less valid. The fact remains that they're nullifying magical powers and that's what matters here. Like, we give Madara power null for nullifying ninjustu despite that not necessarily existing in every verse. Also, verse equalization exists.

which would be listed if not for viet's argument on how it relies on the enemy basically running out of spirit. at best that would be limited power nullification if accepted as one. because in the end, the reason why they cannot do so anymore is that they ran out of spirit energy to do so. not because you nullified their capability to do so.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

what they agree on is that resistance negation or which resistance is being negated must be stated otherwise simply slapping resistance negation would lead to nlf that you can somehow negate resistance to other things when you only showcased negging one resistance.

since the added RN will include which specific resistance it is negging then I guess it is fine for this one

I know the intended point of the CRT was different from what I was suggesting. However, the specific line I singled out shows that yes, we do give resistance negation for overpowering immunity. I wasn't trying to say the entire CRT proved my point, just that one excerpt.

Though if you do agree with RN anyways, I suppose I shouldn't push the issue further.

which would be listed if not for viet's argument on how it relies on the enemy basically running out of spirit. at best that would be limited power nullification if accepted as one. because in the end, the reason why they cannot do so anymore is that they ran out of spirit energy to do so. not because you nullified their capability to do so.

You ARE nullifying their capabilities though. It's no different from destroying or otherwise preventing the usage of mana, chakra, or any other in-verse power system; This is why the power nullification page specifies that abilities can be nullified before they are used.

Really though, this just comes down to "is destroying or otherwise preventing access to a source of one's powers considered power null", which in my eyes is a very obvious yes. Staff input might be needed here, though.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure Magi characters get power null for this exact reason. I can track down other examples if needed, but there is indeed precedent for destroying the necessary components of magic usage qualifying for power null.

 

[Jibz]

following neutral for now

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

We're in agreement on everything except power null and immunity negation, right?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Regenerating after body and soul destruction is still Low-Godly, so unless there is more context, it's just that.

The soulless part...as said above, it's not resistance negation cus it's not a matter of soul resistance since there is no soul to begin with, but its not higher potency either since there is no soul for you to overpower through and call above baseline soulhax, and again no resistances. I personally would label it as just versatility for the hax in question.

Rest is fine.

 

[Breakdown]

Resistance makes more sense than regeneration. Also shouldn't Grazing count as Attack Negation with this?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The soulless part...as said above, it's not resistance negation cus it's not a matter of soul resistance since there is no soul to begin with, but its not higher potency either since there is no soul for you to overpower through and call above baseline soulhax, and again no resistances. I personally would label it as just versatility for the hax in question.

Well it technically IS a resistance, since immunity is just the highest possible degree of resistance. Like I mentioned above, it's similar to how using death hax on a type 5 immortal would grant one immortality negation, so I don't see why we wouldn't be able to do something similar for soulless beings.

Resistance makes more sense than regeneration. Also shouldn't Grazing count as Attack Negation with this?

Hm, why? The depiction of grazing tends to vary a bit, but in the fighting games it's existence erasure and in 17.5 it's transmutation. I'm not sure where attack negation comes from, though?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Resistance makes more sense than regeneration. Also shouldn't Grazing count as Attack Negation with this?

Oh wait, were you referring to how hitting someone while they have projectiles on screen cancels the attack and turns the bullets to spirit power? That's not really the same thing as grazing, but considering this is also a mechanic in the STGs, I think we could reasonably add this to the list of spirit power applications. Maybe as Attack Nullification and Transmutation since the composition of danmaku varies but is still turned into spirit power regardless.

EDIT: Added to the OP.

 

[Sniper670]

Like really? How can you soul hax someone without a soul tho. THEY DONT HAVE A SOUL TO BEGIN WITH. It's not as if they have defenses against soul hax, the soul you want to soul hax isn't even there.

So lemme ask, what are you soulhaxing.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Like really? How can you soul hax someone without a soul tho. THEY DONT HAVE A SOUL TO BEGIN WITH. It's not as if they have defenses against soul hax, the soul you want to soul hax isn't even there.

So lemme ask, what are you soulhaxing.

The same way Touhou characters interact with and harm non-existent and transdual beings, I assume.

Seriously though, like I've stated before, immunity negation is an inherently contradictory power; It's something that breaks down on a logical level if you think about it too hard, but is explicitly something we allow (like with Yukari's type 5 immortality negating death hax).

 

[Sniper670]

Oh well, still weird tho, and I don't know . The soul isn't there, negating it wouldn't make a soul return into me for you to hax. Cos that's the only way for the soul hax to work, if the opponent has a soul

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Like I said, interacting with things that do not technically exist is possible using this site's rules, and Touhou characters have demonstrated this ability with surprising consistency. Junko does not exist due to being nameless, and possesses transduality (which is more or less immunity to every power in the verse), but the protagonists of LoLK were able to interact with and harm her just fine. It's just as weird and contradictory as soulhaxing Mayumi or Yoshika, but we still allow it. Same goes for the Yukari example I provided above.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Just a little correction .

Junko is transdual on her primordial state, not in the form we saw in the game.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Her in-game state is her 'purified' form though, which is literally just a primordial god. Getting rid of her avatar key is best saved for a separate revision, however.

 

[Pixy]

I'm agree with everything but neutral on soul hax against soulless for now

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We need to get some staff in here, going in circles over immunity negation isn't really helping us here.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

One more thing about spirit/temperament, Kokoro's spell cards that are said to be weaponizing emotions are simultaneously using spirit, so spirit is undeniably emotions at this point. Not like that was ever contested, but still.

 

[Sniper670]

Like I said, interacting with things that do not technically exist is possible using this site's rules, and Touhou characters have demonstrated this ability with surprising consistency. Junko does not exist due to being nameless, and possesses transduality (which is more or less immunity to every power in the verse), but the protagonists of LoLK were able to interact with and harm her just fine. It's just as weird and contradictory as soulhaxing Mayumi or Yoshika, but we still allow it. Same goes for the Yukari example I provided above.

So soul haxing mechanical robots is possible now. Hmm..... Iffy

 

[Pixy]

So soul haxing mechanical robots is possible now. Hmm..... Iffy

what !? how !? can I see that ?

 

[Shmooply]

After re-reading the OP and seeing the arguments, I'm leaning towards an agreement towards everything except the soul hax immunity stuff. While we could just slap "yea this is just an outlier for the soulless character" on that part of the CRT and move on, it doesn't really make sense considering it goes against a major plot point of a game, so I'll just remain neutral on that.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Eh, feels like it still falls in the same category as Yukari's immortality negation. Like we obviously can't remove type 5 from Mokou, but Yukari can in fact use her death hax on her, which is very contradictory considering the whole "death is no longer a part of my existence" thing.

 

[Jibz]

Agree on all changes, except for soul hax immunity (neutral though leaning towards disagree) FRA

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Jibz]

bump (im assuming that says 1am for me rather than 1pm)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So far it seems like 8 people agree with immunity negation, 3 are neutral, and 4 disagree.

We really need to get staff in here to settle this issue lmao

 

[Sniper670]

So far it seems like 8 people agree with immunity negation, 3 are neutral, and 4 disagree.

We really need to get staff in here to settle this issue lmao

You're negating my immunity to the fact I don't have a soul? Because y'know, there's no soul tied to the body. Negating what isn't there to negate doesn't make sense at all

I'll say it again. Strongly disagree with immunity negation for the soul.
A mechanical robot is immune to soul manipulation becos they don't have it, negate it and they still don't have the soul, which is what you want to hax

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The soul not existing is hardly relevant when Touhou characters can interact with NEP entities just fine (especially when those entities also lack a soul; Or at least should). Targeting what isn't there is well within the realm of possibility here.

 

[Sniper670]

The soul not existing is hardly relevant when Touhou characters can interact with NEP entities just fine (especially when those entities also lack a soul; Or at least should). Targeting what isn't there is well within the realm of possibility here.

NEP exist in a state where they can't be interacted with without NEP interaction feats. It's an interactivity issue with such characters

Which is why they can still fight each other. But the soul, the soul doesn't exist to begin with, the soul cannot be interacted with in any way, because it's not there to be affected.

Example, take maybe, trying to blood bend a rock. No matter your level of NPI even NEP interaction, it's useless becos there is no blood