Spirit Sign "Massive Touhou Upgrades"

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It's the same thing in principle, though; You are affecting something that does not actually exist. Junko does not exist but other characters can harm her, which is literally no different than Mayumi's soul not existing but characters being able to interact with and harm that soul. Literally nothing you've said counteracts that.

Also, cannot emphasize enough that immortality negation (type 5) is literally the exact same issue; Type 5 immortals lack a concept of death, but in the case of negation, 'death' works just fine on them. Yet you won't find many people who argue that, because it's a contradictory power that targets something that doesn't exist, it should be removed and nobody should ever have it.

 

[DaimaouAshura]

Agree with most things, but some others like Fear Manipulation are looking like a stretch or open for doubt
Kogasa has that ability of surprising as her main focus, we never hear of other characters fighting and getting scared because they lost spirit. And then, in the very scans about it, it mentions issues in scaring even normal people in modern days with the method

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Agree with most things, but some others like Fear Manipulation are looking like a stretch or open for doubt
Kogasa has that ability of surprising as her main focus, we never hear of other characters fighting and getting scared because they lost spirit. And then, in the very scans about it, it mentions issues in scaring even normal people in modern days with the method

This is because of the spirit regeneration though, it only takes a few seconds for spirit to be recovered (for most characters, at least). Not to mention most characters who would get spirit manipulation may have resistance to fear manipulation anyways, though that's for a future revision (youkai likely have a passive fear aura, though ofc I can't really argue on the basis of a revision I have yet to make).

 

[DaimaouAshura]

This is because of the spirit regeneration though, it only takes a few seconds for spirit to be recovered (for most characters, at least). Not to mention most characters who would get spirit manipulation may have resistance to fear manipulation anyways, though that's for a future revision (youkai likely have a passive fear aura, though ofc I can't really argue on the basis of a revision I have yet to make).

I get where you're coming from but I don't feel correct about it because that would be like saying everyone can apply Kogasa's specialty in anything combat-oriented, don't think I've ever seen any hint of that happening
The scans are elaborating on Kogasa's ability, not that attacking someone's spirit always produces fear as a byproduct
Even Kogasa has trouble making work sometimes despite that being her field of expertise
There would also be no need to specify that Kogasa has that ability if it was something that anyone can do by going Saitama or Dragon Ball blasting up someone's face
Before I forget, appreciate your research on this. Must have been loads of work to get all that and put it together, took me a mad minute to get through the OP lmao

 

[DaimaouAshura]

Saying that it's because of the resistance needs characters other than Kogasa causing fear by reducing spirit or scans and statements supporting that be happening.
If there are scans showing a separation in that effect from Kogasa's power doing it, I can agree to fear being universal. With what we have right now, making that would feel like I'm agreeing to giving a character's power to everyone.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I get where you're coming from but I don't feel correct about it because that would be like saying everyone can apply Kogasa's specialty in anything combat-oriented, don't think I've ever seen any hint of that happening

This is pretty common in Touhou though, Marisa's specialty is performing magic despite that being very common, Mokou's specialty is not dying despite there being multiple characters who share her same immortal physiology, and hell, Reimu's specialty is technically flight despite how overwhelmingly common that is in Gensokyo. Hell, Chen's main ability while not possessed is actually the exact same as Kogasa's (surprising people). Touhou abilities are almost never totally unique things.

The scans are elaborating on Kogasa's ability, not that attacking someone's spirit always produces fear as a byproduct

They do correlate the two, though.

There would also be no need to specify that Kogasa has that ability if it was something that anyone can do by going Saitama or Dragon Ball blasting up someone's face

See above.

 

[DaimaouAshura]

This is pretty common in Touhou though, Marisa's specialty is performing magic despite that being very common, Mokou's specialty is not dying despite there being multiple characters who share her same immortal physiology, and hell, Reimu's specialty is technically flight despite how overwhelmingly common that is in Gensokyo. Hell, Chen's main ability while not possessed is actually the exact same as Kogasa's (surprising people). Touhou abilities are almost never totally unique things.


They do correlate the two, though.


See above.

The problem arises based on what grounds we are giving that shared specialty here.
Picking from one of your own examples, Mokou and Kaguya can have the same Hourai immortality because we know both got the Hourai Elixir.
Reimu's flight is on a whole other level than just everyday flying, so selling it like "she just flies like everyone" is... Underselling our girl lmao Dunno the point there, it's not like everyone can go Fantasy Heaven by flying so that doesn't fly (sorry).
And they don't correlate enough to give it to everyone.
The scans point that Kogasa has an ability that lets her do that. It's how she manipulates her powers and how she employs her own technique in regards to spirit. One line goes out of its way to differentiate, with "most youkais do this, but Kogasa does that."
It doesn't say it's a property that goes hand in hand with attacking spirit no matter what.
It says it's what Kogasa does to get that effect, with her ability.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The problem arises based on what grounds we are giving that shared specialty here.
Picking from one of your own examples, Mokou and Kaguya can have the same Hourai immortality because we know both got the Hourai Elixir.
Reimu's flight is on a whole other level than just everyday flying, so selling it like "she just flies like everyone" is... Underselling our girl lmao Dunno the point there, it's not like everyone can go Fantasy Heaven by flying so that doesn't fly (sorry).
And they don't correlate enough to give it to everyone.
The scans point that Kogasa has an ability that lets her do that. It's how she manipulates her powers and how she employs her own technique in regards to spirit. One line goes out of its way to differentiate, with "most youkais do this, but Kogasa does that."
It doesn't say it's a property that goes hand in hand with attacking spirit no matter what.
It says it's what Kogasa does to get that effect, with her ability.

Reimu's Fantasy Nature isn't due to her ability to fly, or at the very least there's nothing implying as much. That's really just a headcanon brought about by people taking the wiki's word at face value, which we should never do. Her flight is basically the same as everyone else's.

Kogasa's ability is not even supernatural in nature. She just jumps out and yells 'boo!' at people most of the time. Nothing about her ability needs any sort of special requirements, because the fundamentals of how it works can be replicated by anyone.

The 'most youkai' bit is a matter of physiology; Kogasa is a youkai who needs spirit to live, hence why she places so much focus on trying to scare people (which also explains why it's her listed ability despite how easy or common it is; It's her 'gimmick' in spite of those factors). Other youkai don't live off a diet of spirit, though, so that's why they're being differentiated.

And if you wanna ask 'why doesn't Kogasa just attack regular people to get their spirit that way', well, doing so would be a one-way ticket to getting permanently exterminated.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Before I forget, appreciate your research on this. Must have been loads of work to get all that and put it together, took me a mad minute to get through the OP lmao

Thanks btw, it didn't take as long as I was expecting, but digging through SWR's entire script for the spirit/temperament connections was a pain in the ass lmao

 

[DaimaouAshura]

Reimu's Fantasy Nature isn't due to her ability to fly, or at the very least there's nothing implying as much. That's really just a headcanon brought about by people taking the wiki's word at face value, which we should never do. Her flight is basically the same as everyone else's.

Kogasa's ability is not even supernatural in nature. She just jumps out and yells 'boo!' at people most of the time. Nothing about her ability needs any sort of special requirements, because the fundamentals of how it works can be replicated by anyone.

The 'most youkai' bit is a matter of physiology; Kogasa is a youkai who needs spirit to live, hence why she places so much focus on trying to scare people (which also explains why it's her listed ability despite how easy or common it is; It's her 'gimmick' in spite of those factors). Other youkai don't live off a diet of spirit, though, so that's why they're being differentiated.

And if you wanna ask 'why doesn't Kogasa just attack regular people to get their spirit that way', well, doing so would be a one-way ticket to getting permanently exterminated.

Kogasa just yelling boo at people to get the effect out of her ability doesn't disqualify the fact that scaring IS her ability, because the series says it is.
Anyone can do a boo gesture, but in Kogasa's case it is stated that she has the focus and excels at scaring people.
"Anyone can mimick the Kamehameha gestures, but they'd need to have energy manipulation to see that producing any relevant effect." is the idea here.
Anyone can do a boo in Touhou but unless they have hints, feats or statements it's just the gesture with nothing else to it.
Because Kogasa HAS that ability, it's special in her case.
The rest is territory of assumptions compared to the scans. We can't give the whole universe fear powers based on scans saying one character can. The scans says it's a Kogasa thing, not a spirit effect that anyone can do.

 

[DaimaouAshura]

Thanks btw, it didn't take as long as I was expecting, but digging through SWR's entire script for the spirit/temperament connections was a pain in the ass lmao

Still impresssive. Still learning but I've browsed through content of this series that makes my head do a mad spin in connecting the dots

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Kogasa just yelling boo at people to get the effect out of her ability doesn't disqualify the fact that scaring IS her ability, because the series says it is.
Anyone can do a boo gesture, but in Kogasa's case it is stated that she has the focus and excels at scaring people.
"Anyone can mimick the Kamehameha gestures, but they'd need to have energy manipulation to see that producing any relevant effect." is the idea here.
Anyone can do a boo in Touhou but unless they have hints, feats or statements it's just the gesture with nothing else to it.
Because Kogasa HAS that ability, it's special in her case.
The rest is territory of assumptions compared to the scans. We can't give the whole universe fear powers based on scans saying one character can. The scans says it's a Kogasa thing, not a spirit effect that anyone can do.

Kogasa is said to hone her ability by reading classic ghost stories; If she has to read a book just to learn how to properly scare people, that really doesn't sound like she has some innate supernatural power letting her do so. Also, her SoPM profile says that surprising people is a thing for ALL tsukumogami, not just Kogasa, again suggesting that this isn't some Kogasa-exclusive thing. Hell, Marisa even says she's no different from other youkai in that regard, and Kogasa even seemingly corroborates this statement.

Still impresssive. Still learning but I've browsed through content of this series that makes my head do a mad spin in connecting the dots

It's definitely like that, I've poured a ton of time into researching this series and I'm still finding new and interesting things. But if you wanna talk more about that outside of this thread we have a general discussion thread.

 

[DaimaouAshura]

Kogasa is said to hone her ability by reading classic ghost stories; If she has to read a book just to learn how to properly scare people, that really doesn't sound like she has some innate supernatural power letting her do so. Also, her SoPM profile says that surprising people is a thing for ALL tsukumogami, not just Kogasa, again suggesting that this isn't some Kogasa-exclusive thing. Hell, Marisa even says she's no different from other youkai in that regard, and Kogasa even seemingly corroborates this statement.


It's definitely like that, I've poured a ton of time into researching this series and I'm still finding new and interesting things. But if you wanna talk more about that outside of this thread we have a general discussion thread.

First scan gave me even more doubt on fear. The one character with an ability mention or statements around it have bordering on being non-applicable, even on everyday people.
Tsukumogami are all from Kogasa's race, I wouldn't be opposed to fear manipulation being given to all Tsukumogami as a race power.
Power to build up fear attacking others being given to everyone based on spirit loss, is where I feel the evidence doesn't add up.
We don't have example of someone hitting another and making them feel fear.
What is needed to back up fear for everyone is proof that simply hitting and making people lose spirit causes them fear, on its own.
The Marisa statement isn't about everyone having her power, it's said kinda like "man, these days everything is boring." with the "you're all the same, nobody interesting."

 

[DaimaouAshura]

Gonna have to logout now, but heads-up that I agree to all the rest. Be ready to talk more later or tomorrow!

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

First scan gave me even more doubt on fear. The one character with an ability mention or statements around it have bordering on being non-applicable, even on everyday people.

It's a different method of delivering that fear, though, and Kogasa can't just attack humans physically to absorb their spirit. She does need to rely on the non-spirit manipulation method, despite how bad she is at it.

Tsukumogami are all from Kogasa's race, I wouldn't be opposed to fear manipulation being given to all Tsukumogami as a race power.

I'm fine with that, though youkai in general should have it. If we go this route we should also mention that it's an alternative method of spirit manipulation that doesn't rely on hitting an opponent and can be done via hax.

Power to build up fear attacking others being given to everyone based on spirit loss, is where I feel the evidence doesn't add up.
We don't have example of someone hitting another and making them feel fear.
What is needed to back up fear for everyone is proof that simply hitting and making people lose spirit causes them fear, on its own.

Yeah, I can admit this is something I don't think I have the means to prove. Everybody's natural spirit regeneration means I don't think I can really find any examples of this, and characters who don't get spirit manipulation don't really have any combat showings I could turn to, I think. I can double check the manga later on, but that may take a while.

The Marisa statement isn't about everyone having her power, it's said kinda like "man, these days everything is boring." with the "you're all the same, nobody interesting."

I think she's moreso referring to how Kogasa is so similar to all other youkai that she's uninteresting. Plus, Kogasa's statement about 'we youkai' kinda generalizes her ability as well.

Gonna have to logout now, but heads-up that I agree to all the rest. Be ready to talk more later or tomorrow!

Take care, and thanks for helping out here.

 

[Sniper670]

It's the same thing in principle, though; You are affecting something that does not actually exist. Junko does not exist but other characters can harm her, which is literally no different than Mayumi's soul not existing but characters being able to interact with and harm that soul. Literally nothing you've said counteracts that.

Also, cannot emphasize enough that immortality negation (type 5) is literally the exact same issue; Type 5 immortals lack a concept of death, but in the case of negation, 'death' works just fine on them. Yet you won't find many people who argue that, because it's a contradictory power that targets something that doesn't exist, it should be removed and nobody should ever have it.

Still disagree

What Yoshika drops are Divine spirits she devours. She can also reabsorb them to refill her HP. It's not her own soul, since, well, she doesn't have one. No?

Mayumi also said all Keiko dolls end up having souls in them. But this is from the touhou wiki and I'll be looking more into it

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What Yoshika drops are Divine spirits she devours. She can also reabsorb them to refill her HP. It's not her own soul, since, well, she doesn't have one. No?

I suppose you could interpret it that way, but divine spirits are very different from phantoms (which is what spirit power is). Unless we assume that divine spirits are the same thing as spirit power as well, which we have 0 evidence of.

Mayumi also said all Keiko dolls end up having souls in them. But this is from the touhou wiki and I'll be looking more into it

Yes, Keiki's creations do eventually possess souls. However, that is something that occurs an indeterminate amount of time after their creation. For all intents and purposes, the haniwa attacking the beast spirits (which includes Mayumi) need to lack souls, as this is the reason the beast spirits cannot harm them and need to turn to the protagonists for help. So this point doesn't really mean much, I'm afraid.

 

[Sniper670]

I suppose you could interpret it that way, but divine spirits are very different from phantoms (which is what spirit power is). Unless we assume that divine spirits are the same thing as spirit power as well, which we have 0 evidence of.

1. Divine spirits are still a variation of spirits in Touhou.

Yes, Keiki's creations do eventually possess souls. However, that is something that occurs an indeterminate amount of time after their creation. For all intents and purposes, the haniwa attacking the beast spirits (which includes Mayumi) need to lack souls, as this is the reason the beast spirits cannot harm them and need to turn to the protagonists for help. So this point doesn't really mean much, I'm afraid.

2. Idols lack flesh and blood yet we already know the idols are physical, which is why they needed flesh and blood humans to beat them. Idols don't have souls yet we discover that they do have souls. Immunity negation of soul manipulation is questionable at best in both instances.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

2. Idols lack flesh and blood yet we already know the idols are physical, which is why they needed flesh and blood humans to beat them. Idols don't have souls yet we discover that they do have souls. Immunity negation of soul manipulation is questionable at best in both instances.

...What is this even trying to say?

"Idols don't have souls but they do have souls"

I can't even debate this, it may as well just be insane ramblings at this point.

The first point doesn't even make sense either. Yes, the idols are physical. This has 0 ******* relation to souls or spirit power or whatever.

1. Divine spirits are still a variation of spirits in Touhou.

Okay? And how exactly do you plan on tying this to spirit power, which is a totally separate thing with 0 connections to divine spirits?

 

[Sniper670]

...What is this even trying to say?

"Idols don't have souls but they do have souls"

I can't even debate this, it may as well just be insane ramblings at this point.

The first point doesn't even make sense either. Yes, the idols are physical. This has 0 ******* relation to souls or spirit power or whatever

Idols have souls, yes or no? They have flesh no? But the scan you post contradict exactly both instance. I got no more to say then. Either a massive contradiction, or a lot of context is missing here.

Okay? And how exactly do you plan on tying this to spirit power, which is a totally separate thing with 0 connections to divine spirits?

They have no soul no? So why the hell are you super imposing a soul on it when she uses Divine Spirits she devours, in healing herself and such. Which she drops occasionally when damaged and reabsorbs to heal, until fully defeated

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Idols have souls, yes or no? They have flesh no? But the scan you post contradict exactly both instance. I got no more to say then. Either a massive contradiction, or a lot of context is missing here.

What scan? What contradictions? I only posted one scan, which blatantly states that the idols in WBaWC don't have souls or flesh.

No souls, no desires, no flesh. WBaWC is very clear about this.

They have no soul no? So why the hell are you super imposing a soul on it when she uses Divine Spirits she devours, in healing herself and such. Which she drops occasionally when damaged and reabsorbs to heal, until fully defeated

I will ask again: What relation does this have to spirit power? That's the point of contention here. The fact of the matter is, she drops spirit power. Which by all means, she should not have due to lacking a soul.

 

[Sniper670]

What scan? What contradictions? I only posted one scan, which blatantly states that the idols in WBaWC don't have souls or flesh.

No souls, no desires, no flesh. WBaWC is very clear about this.

No flesh?

No soul?

No desire? C'mon, if they had no desire, they wouldn't move all the way to the Animal world to take control of it

I will ask again: What relation does this have to spirit power? That's the point of contention here. The fact of the matter is, she drops spirit power. Which by all means, she should not have due to lacking a soul.

You don't listen do you? Okay we know she doesn't have a soul, so what soul besides the spirits she absorps and utilizes mid battle.

So uhh, where's the immunity negation now

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

No flesh?

No flesh as in, they are made of clay and water. Y'know, like actual haniwa. But more importantly, why is whether or not they have physical bodies relevant? This is about whether or not they have souls. But while I'm at it, you wanna know something interesting about that first scan?

It just straight up confirms that haniwa don't have souls. They're hollow; Spiritual attacks are ineffective because there's nothing to attack. So thanks for getting me to double check, and congrats on accidentally digging yourself even deeper into this hole of bad logic and omitting context.

No soul?

So where's this coming from? Because I've checked every official source on Keiki (not like there are that many), as well as every piece of dialogue in WBaWC and this does not come up. Hell, I've even checked every other WBaWC profile just to be doubly sure, and did a full search for 'Keiki + soul' on the wiki, and I got absolutely nothing. There is 0 mention of her haniwa possessing souls.

Like I've done my research. I cannot find a single scrap of evidence that the scan you provided comes from canon material, or any material at all. It may as well not exist.

No desire? C'mon, if they had no desire, they wouldn't move all the way to the Animal world to take control of it

They did so because Keiki commanded them to, not because they wanted to. I mean, Keiki's profile states that it was Keiki who was behind taking over the Primate Spirit Garden, so the idols were basically just pawns to that end.

But again, and I cannot emphasize this enough, this doesn't matter. The issue is whether or not they have souls; Everything else is irrelevant, so unless you wanna tell me why this is suddenly relevant, just drop it.

You don't listen do you? Okay we know she doesn't have a soul, so what soul besides the spirits she absorps and utilizes mid battle.

So uhh, where's the immunity negation now

??????

This is incomprehensible. I don't know what you're trying to argue here.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Wait so

I did find the source for that Keiki soul thing.

It's ******* Wikipedia.

Like. You've gotta be ******* kidding me, right? Just leave. This is embarrassing for you. We use the source material here, not whatever headcanons are dreamt up by wiki editors who likely don't even know the series. And believe me, I've checked the goddamn source material, and nowhere is that headcanon reconciled.

 

[Shmooply]

Wikipedia says that the spirit stuff comes from the WBaWC omake. I checked the contents of it, and it's literally never mentioned anywhere that the things she creates has a soul.

 

[Sniper670]

Wait so

I did find the source for that Keiki soul thing.

It's ******* Wikipedia.

Like. You've gotta be ******* kidding me, right? Just leave. This is embarrassing for you. We use the source material here, not whatever headcanons are dreamt up by wiki editors who likely don't even know the series. And believe me, I've checked the goddamn source material, and nowhere is that headcanon reconciled.

You think they give a **** about a vsbw to put false info on there?
Go check out "wily beast and weakest creature omake". Luckily there was at least reference material on there for the source

Hmm

Also ask the creator of this profile. He must have other sources on why Mayumi is vulnerable to spiritual attacks(its under her weaknesses)

 

[Shmooply]

Go check out "wily beast and weakest creature omake". Luckily there was at least reference material on there for the source

I literally just posted Keiki's bio from the Omake, and it clearly shows that it's stated nowhere that the haniwa she creates have spirits.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Seems this is a classic case of the Touhou wiki, and by extension Wikipedia, spreading false information. Kasen's teleportation and fairy type 8 immortality come to mind...

You think they give a **** about a vsbw to put false info on there?
Go check out "wily beast and weakest creature omake". Luckily there was at least reference material on there for the source

I'm saying they likely just got information wrong somewhere, not that they have it out for us or anything. Accidents happen.
Oh, and Shmooply and I did check the omake.txt, and there's jack shit about idols having souls. But there is quite a lot about them not having souls!

Hmm

Also ask the creator of this profile. He must have other sources on why Mayumi is vulnerable to spiritual attacks(its under her weaknesses)

Lol, lmao even. Ignoring how completely and utterly braindead it is to use VSBW sandbox profiles as a primary source for your arguments, there's a glaring problem here. Zephyr incorrectly assumed that Mayumi is a youkai; You can see how evident this mistake is in her resistances tabber. However, she is not a youkai, and there is nothing indicating as such.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Just found this thread and read OP, as of current I agree with what you've posited, though I'm unsure of what to consider the regen. It sounds like mid-godly to me, however that makes me wonder what we'll need to qualify Hourai Immortals considering how they're clearly depicted to have far superior regen/immortality than most.

 

[DaimaouAshura]

Took some mad rereading, but think I got what you're saying

Idols have souls, yes or no? They have flesh no? But the scan you post contradict exactly both instance. I got no more to say then. Either a massive contradiction, or a lot of context is missing here.

They have no soul no? So why the hell are you super imposing a soul on it when she uses Divine Spirits she devours, in healing herself and such. Which she drops occasionally when damaged and reabsorbs to heal, until fully defeated

It's that the statements are mutually exclusive?
Being affected by something involving soul would make the no soul void or vice-versa, instead of proving negation of soul resistance.
If I got that right, might change my thought to neutral on this one until you two are resolved

 

[DaimaouAshura]

It's a different method of delivering that fear, though, and Kogasa can't just attack humans physically to absorb their spirit. She does need to rely on the non-spirit manipulation method, despite how bad she is at it.


I'm fine with that, though youkai in general should have it. If we go this route we should also mention that it's an alternative method of spirit manipulation that doesn't rely on hitting an opponent and can be done via hax.


Yeah, I can admit this is something I don't think I have the means to prove. Everybody's natural spirit regeneration means I don't think I can really find any examples of this, and characters who don't get spirit manipulation don't really have any combat showings I could turn to, I think. I can double check the manga later on, but that may take a while.


I think she's moreso referring to how Kogasa is so similar to all other youkai that she's uninteresting. Plus, Kogasa's statement about 'we youkai' kinda generalizes her ability as well.


Take care, and thanks for helping out here.

Checks out to me, as a race skill and youkai exclusive.
The method might end up vague depending on who it is and what other examples may be, but Fear Manipulation added as a separate hax of youkai instead of omnipresent property of spirit power sounds concrete.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It's that the statements are mutually exclusive?
Being affected by something involving soul would make the no soul void or vice-versa, instead of proving negation of soul resistance.
If I got that right, might change my thought to neutral on this one until you two are resolved

His point here was made on the basis of how, according to him, idols are stated to have souls. Except we went over the source of idols supposedly having souls, which was in fact from Wikipedia, so that turned out to be completely wrong.

Though if what you're saying is more along the lines of the earlier point of "soul hax can't be used on a soulless being, because that'd either be totally impossible, or is an anti-feat and the character in question actually does have a soul", then there are problems with that as well. The main one being that we do allow contradictory ability interactions like this, and also consider them a form of negation; The main example is how Yukari can use her death hax on Mokou, despite Mokou lacking the concept of death entirely, which we consider to be negation of Mokou's immunity. Replace 'death' with 'soul' and it's the exact same as the situation with Mayumi.

For the record I agree with soul manipulation negation here but I

Oh. Well, never mind then :v

Checks out to me, as a race skill and youkai exclusive.
The method might end up vague depending on who it is and what other examples may be, but Fear Manipulation added as a separate hax of youkai instead of omnipresent property of spirit sounds concrete.

So the proposition here is to give all tsukumogami/youkai fearhax, with the addition of how said hax also affect the spirit? That does sound reasonable to me, but I'll wait for a bit more input before editing the OP since other users agreed with spirit fearhax beforehand.

By the way, if we are giving youkai fear manipulation in general, I may as well post my own evidence for it. All youkai possess 'youkai energy' in the form of an aura, which is strong enough to make one feel pins and needles throughout their body even while sealed away, and can make on start to tremble (plus Mamizou's 'intimidating aura' supporting this). Also youkai are literally born from human fear so them not having fear manip just feels wrong. So I was thinking of giving youkai Aura, Sense Manipulation, and Fear Manipulation to all youkai due to this. Though, we could definitely add the stuff about Kogasa/tsukumogami scaring humans as well.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Also this is pretty off topic, but since we'll probably be needing to make a verse-specific power page for this, what should the header image be? I haven't been able to think of anything good, and I don't wanna fall back on fanart (though I'm fine with it if we decide to do that).

 

[DaimaouAshura]

Though if what you're saying is more along the lines of the earlier point of "soul hax can't be used on a soulless being, because that'd either be totally impossible, or is an anti-feat and the character in question actually does have a soul", then there are problems with that as well. The main one being that we do allow contradictory ability interactions like this, and also consider them a form of negation; The main example is how Yukari can use her death hax on Mokou, despite Mokou lacking the concept of death entirely, which we consider to be negation of Mokou's immunity. Replace 'death' with 'soul' and it's the exact same as the situation with Mayumi.

This is the idea.
I get that happens on occasion but in the case of spirit it also includes things like emotions. I'd find it more likely that when taking spirit from souless beings they are removing these other components than affecting an arbitrarily soul-based essence that doesn't exist.
If they attacked a souless being with spirit loss I'd think their other things may be affected, instead of feeling loss to inexistent soul.
Also Yukari has boundary manipulation which is all about doing that kind of thing so I'm unsure on using her as a ruler in general.

 

[DaimaouAshura]

So the proposition here is to give all tsukumogami/youkai fearhax, with the addition of how said hax also affect the spirit? That does sound reasonable to me, but I'll wait for a bit more input before editing the OP since other users agreed with spirit fearhax beforehand.

By the way, if we are giving youkai fear manipulation in general, I may as well post my own evidence for it. All youkai possess 'youkai energy' in the form of an aura, which is strong enough to make one feel pins and needles throughout their body even while sealed away, and can make on start to tremble (plus Mamizou's 'intimidating aura' supporting this). Also youkai are literally born from human fear so them not having fear manip just feels wrong. So I was thinking of giving youkai Aura, Sense Manipulation, and Fear Manipulation to all youkai due to this. Though, we could definitely add the stuff about Kogasa/tsukumogami scaring humans as well.

Being for youkai and based on this aura hax sounds far more sound and concrete.
To this take on it, I can agree no issues

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This is the idea.
I get that happens on occasion but in the case of spirit it also includes things like emotions. I'd find it more likely that when taking spirit from souless beings they are removing these other components than affecting an arbitrarily soul-based essence that doesn't exist.
If they attacked a souless being with spirit loss I'd think their other things may be affected, instead of feeling loss to inexistent soul.

Yeahhhh, that's kind of the issue with Mayumi. She lacks desires as well due to being an idol, so emotional draining isn't really an option. Same goes for stamina, since she doesn't tire due to her inorganic physiology. Similar case with Yoshika, she lacks a mind and feelings and never tires due to being a Jiang-Shi. Both their physiological traits complicate matters more than they should tbh

Also Yukari has boundary manipulation which is all about doing that kind of thing so I'm unsure on using her as a ruler in general.

Eh, it was more of an example of how immunity negation as a concept isn't unacceptable, but I get where you're coming from. Though, I don't think her boundary hax are why she could negate immortality? She says Mokou will 'cross the boundary of life and death', but it doesn't really explain how she'd even be doing that despite how impossible it is. But let's not get too off topic here.

Being for youkai and based on this aura hax sounds far more sound and concrete.
To this take on it, I can agree no issues

Nice, hoping this is okay with everyone else here?

Btw I found some potential fanart we could use for the Spirit Manipulation page (this is mostly a joke lmao):

Spoiler

 

[DaimaouAshura]

Yeahhhh, that's kind of the issue with Mayumi. She lacks desires as well due to being an idol, so emotional draining isn't really an option. Same goes for stamina, since she doesn't tire due to her inorganic physiology. Similar case with Yoshika, she lacks a mind and feelings and never tires due to being a Jiang-Shi. Both their physiological traits complicate matters more than they should tbh


Eh, it was more of an example of how immunity negation as a concept isn't unacceptable, but I get where you're coming from. Though, I don't think her boundary hax are why she could negate immortality? She says Mokou will 'cross the boundary of life and death', but it doesn't really explain how she'd even be doing that despite how impossible it is. But let's not get too off topic here.


Nice, hoping this is okay with everyone else here?

Btw I found some potential fanart we could use for the Spirit Manipulation page (this is mostly a joke lmao):

Spoiler

"Well I'll be damned." With nothing else in her that can be likened to what spirit covers, can't make any calls. Final guess would be that what she drops comes from her powers having absorbed from something else like Tenshi, but assumption territory.

If we had to use one of the images selected the one with Marisa bleeding out there be the best lmao

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

"Well I'll be damned." With nothing else in her that can be likened to what spirit covers, can't make any calls. Final guess would be that what she drops comes from her powers having absorbed from something else like Tenshi, but assumption territory.

Mhm, it's a difficult situation. Best we can do is wait for staff input.

If we had to use one of the images selected the one with Marisa bleeding out there be the best lmao

We could just use the default Spirit Power icons but those are kinda boring :v

 

[Malomtek]

I'd argue that the overwhelming majority of this "Spirit Sign" stuff falls way more into the category of "gameplay mechanics" (a la rings in Sonic games, Super Mushrooms in Mario games, etc) than anything having to do with an "in-universe" function, especially given how they're claimed to work in ways that are completely incoherent with their stated function (e.g. taking soul stuff from explicitly soulless beings). To those who would argue otherwise, I would like to pose two questions: has there been literally any time a Touhou character has extracted "spirit sign" power ups, or anything similar from another character, outside of gameplay? Secondly, has anyone in Touhou lore or canon ever commented on how the 2hus in a given fight are extracting spirit/soul stuff from each other with just basic attacks?

I don't believe for a second that these topics would just be passed over if they weren't simply gameplay mechanics, but things that actually occur in-universe.

I'm also going to say that "spirit" in the sense of "spiritual energy" ("spiritual energy" or "chi" may or may not include "temperaments" as a factor of it), and "spirit" in the sense of "a soul" aren't exactly the same thing, even in Touhou, and that we shouldn't unnecessarily equivocate them. Spiritual energy, souls, and even phantoms, as such, are clearly distinguished from each other via their functions. We've never heard of spiritual energy attacks being described as having the kind of auto-kill properties touching a phantom does, for example.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm also going to say that "spirit" in the sense of "spiritual energy" ("spiritual energy" or "chi" may or may not include "temperaments" as a factor of it), and "spirit" in the sense of "a soul" aren't exactly the same thing, even in Touhou, and that we shouldn't unnecessarily equivocate them. Spiritual energy, souls, and even phantoms, as such, are clearly distinguished from each other via their functions. We've never heard of spiritual energy attacks being described as having the kind of auto-kill properties touching a phantom does, for example.

Well first things first, phantoms don't have death hax, you're thinking of ghosts. Touhou does differentiate between the different kinds of spirits. Secondly, assuming that spirit power, spirit, or spiritual energy are different things is just silly. In HM, for example, the spirit bar is just called spirit, even though it functions identically to the bars present in other games that are referred to as spirit power. We have reason to equalize these things, because both the games and the characters themselves don't treat them with any meaningful distinction.

I'd argue that the overwhelming majority of this "Spirit Sign" stuff falls way more into the category of "gameplay mechanics" (a la rings in Sonic games, Super Mushrooms in Mario games, etc) than anything having to do with an "in-universe" function, especially given how they're claimed to work in ways that are completely incoherent with their stated function (e.g. taking soul stuff from explicitly soulless beings). To those who would argue otherwise, I would like to pose two questions: has there been literally any time a Touhou character has extracted "spirit sign" power ups, or anything similar from another character, outside of gameplay? Secondly, has anyone in Touhou lore or canon ever commented on how the 2hus in a given fight are extracting spirit/soul stuff from each other with just basic attacks?

I don't believe for a second that these topics would just be passed over if they weren't simply gameplay mechanics, but things that actually occur in-universe.

We've been over the soulhaxing soulless beings stuff, it's no different than similar showings from Yukari. But honestly that's the most controversial part of this thread, so I can't really blame you for disagreeing. However, we cannot just reject how it works in literally hundreds of instances just because it happens to work weirdly in 2. It's not 'completely incoherent' when it consistently works the same 99.9% of the time.

The 'gameplay only' argument is somewhat absurd too; As mentioned before, Sanae's comments in UFO confirm that spirit power is a real thing the characters are aware of; They just consider it so mundane that they don't bother bringing it up most of the time. Additionally, the entire plot of SWR hinges on characters noticing that everybody's spirit is being absorbed, and they consider this a major incident. So the existence of spirit power as an in-verse thing is all but confirmed, as well as the acknowledgement of its absorption.

But most importantly, do we even need in-universe confirmation? Like, take 17.5 for instance. When you graze bullets, they turn into water, which I plan on adding to the profiles as transmutation. Would you reject that on the basis of "the characters don't mention it, so it didn't happen"? We have an explanation for how it works, and we see how it works in action. That's good enough for most people. But spirit does at least have the distinction of being an in-universe power source that characters make note of from time to time.

Honestly, 17.5 is hardly the only example, even currently accepted stuff like player system cards have the same issue as what you're describing, and I guarantee I could find more examples.

also using Sonic's rings and Mario's mushrooms as examples of game mechanics isn't a good idea when I think both those verses do actually acknowledge both those things in-universe quite frequently lmao