- 11,929
- 4,282
Continuation of this thread, will make the arguments very clear now with a voting poll from the beginning, full disclosure though, if this becomes as much of a mess and flood and the last thread i will ask for this to be closed and make a staff thread instead, clear? ok, so for the thread itself
This thread will cover other aspects that were supposed to be covered in the past thread as well before getting extremely clogged, mostly it will cover the separation of the realms, the supposed space time barriers that separate them, and the likes, so let's go
"But it can't be assessed without Teleportation" well......yeah? there is a wall in the way, on top of it, it is sealing it away from the outside, of course you can't just fly to there normally, there is a wall with no holes in the way
Edit: pointed by @Nullflowerblush the kanji and term used to describe the barrier is ドラゴンボールの世界では、宇宙はあの世の下に位置し、不思議な文様の刻まれた壁によって密閉されている。—utilizes the kanji, 壁 (kabe), for wall by itself, unlike how the television anime exclusively specifies 次元の壁 or "dimensional walls" when referencing the Room of Spirit and Time and Majin Buu's Outside Space technique
so more proof that the barrier is not a dimensional barrier at all
by the way, no scan saying that Kaioshin realm or the Afterlife are alternate dimensions is in the currently used cosmology blog, only that they are other "realms" thus their status as alternate dimensions is not something officially said, but a conclusion that we came up with based on the evidence presented, which as i explained above, it is wrong as they are both clearly physically in the same plane as the Living World given all physical descriptions for what separates both from it(A physical barrier and a great distance, respectively)
So a supposed other space time is somehow not too far from another(3 minutes of travel), and is significantly far away from another point of it at the same time(26 minutes), and top of it all, 2 points in the same space time are even further away than the distance between the other space time(35 minutes)? This can only be possible if it is physically connected to the Living World, and these distances would be explained by it's position in comparison to these other places, as 3D distance shouldn't really matter when talking about distance from one space time to another
Edit: This one is...........the thing that can change the dimensional aspect for the realms, see the Demon Realm is still called as treated as a realm, same terminology, same treatement as the others, yet it is blatantly said to be in another dimension, thus "realms" being used to describe "dimensions" is.....seemingly how they use the term then, and since this comes in the same guide about the physical barriers...........it creates a weird contradiction, therefore i would like for any staff that voted agreeing with the above to give an opinion on this point, else i wouldn't feel like applying the thread
regardless of the above, there is still the space time separation and dimensional barriers point, next section will cover them
The second scan is the scan used for the afterlife point above, where as i explained, does nothing but say that the afterlife is physically within the space of the living universe with it even describing a physical barrier/wall between them, not some "space time dimensional barrier" just a physical wall between them
even if true it would make Low 2-C for the Afterlife impossible as you cannot be a space TIME without TIME
2.2 Subspace
As we all know, Subspace is a conceptually timeless-spaceless realm, that is said to be between "dimensions", which is also used to supposedly prove how all the dimensions of the macrocosm are spatio temporally separated as such space being between them would prove that......problem is that the last part is not said, nothing on the scans about the Subspace ever says that it is between the dimensions "of the macrocosm" only that it is vaguely "between dimensions", no specification if it is between the ones in the macrocosm or not, just that it is "between dimensions" which doesn't tell us much regarding which dimensions it is talking about, but considering the dimensions cited alongside the subspace are the likes of the Room of Spirit and Time/Hyperbolic Time Chamber, it is only natural to conclude that it is saying that it is between those dimensions and the Macrocosm.
However, that still doesn't help since those are also not said to be inside the macrocosm anywhere, nor do we have any particular reason to assume they are in the first place, the only statement we have about its placement is that it is "どの世界にも属さない"/"That which doesn't belong to the world" and "この他、【図1】の世界のどこにも属さない「亜空間」が存在している。Also, there are subspaces that don't belong anywhere in the world depicted in [Fig.1]." and "It is a different dimensional world that does not belong to any part of the world"
pretty much all statements about it talk about how it just doesn't belong in the world("world" used to describe the macrocosm in this context) so for all we can say, it isn't even inside the Universe/Macrocosm to begin with, thus using it to prove spatial temporal separation is simply not the way to go, since nothing says that it is even inside of it to begin with
edit 2: while one scan does epecify "the worlds represented in Figure 1" the other scan doesn't specify, mentioning that Subspace doesn't belong anywhere in the "World", which is consistently how the entire Macrocosm is called when no individual realms are cited
edit 3: pointed by @KingTempest Goku can sense and teleport to all the reals of the macrocosm without problem, but he couldn't sense Ki inside of the ROSAT, which is directly credited due to the fact that it's a different dimension
meaning that other dimensions are beyond what Goku can feel and teleport to
Now then, we finally see after so long a "Dimensional Wall" that fits the description of a "space time barrier".....however, nothing really is ever said about it being inside the Macrocosm at all, only that it isn't part of "reality", since the entire movie happens inside U7, we can assert that in this context they mean "the reality of U7" aka the dimensional barrier here is separating the entire of U7(Living World, Afterlife, Kaioshin realm, etc) from the outside, meaning that at the Universe is without a doubt a 4D Structure/a Space-Time with what separates it from the other Universes in the 12 universes being this Dimensional Wall, this is even more supported by the dimensional wall mentioned that separates the ROSAT, outside the macrocosm, from the macrocosm.
Which means that the movie retconned the Super Shenron Scene so prominent in the last thread,as it shows that the universes apparently physically connect with one another (forget this part, at closer inspection, it most likely is the light putting a trick) and shows light traveling between them to them normally, which wouldn't happen if they were individual space times as the DBS Broly scene clearly implies, therefore i am suggesting that we simply trow that entire scene away in favor of the more recent implications.
As a final reminder, flooding in this thread like the last one and the other DB Cosmology threads will result in nothing but me asking for closure and making a staff thread instead to discuss it, therefore, y'all behave so that doesn't need to happen? kay? okay
Agree: KingTempest Flashlight237 Damage3245 .
Disagree: DarkDragonMedeus GarrixianXD Lephyrtherevanchist Qawsedf234 . CloverDragon03 (Disagrees on the Realms not being other dimensions, no opinion on the other points given yet)
Neutral:
@Antvasima :Waiting clarification on his stance
This thread will cover other aspects that were supposed to be covered in the past thread as well before getting extremely clogged, mostly it will cover the separation of the realms, the supposed space time barriers that separate them, and the likes, so let's go
1 Physically connected realms
1.1 Afterlife physically connected
The afterlife is in various times stated and/or implied to be physically separated from the Living World, not by an "dimensional" barrier like it was said in past threads, but a normal physical one with the Living World/Universe being "beneath" the afterlife(aka being physically beneath, which wouldn't really make sense for space times) and only separated by a "barrier engraved with a strange design" Engraved meaning to cut something in a material physically, aka the barrier separating them has to be physical to be able to be "engraved" upon, thus the Afterlife cannot be a separated dimension given that what separates it is a physical wall, which is even more supported by the word used to describe how it is separated "Hermetically" which means "in a way that is tightly closed so that no air can escape or enter" aka physically closed off in such a way that nothing, not even air, can get in or out, given all of this, we can assert for sure that the Afterlife is not another dimension outside of the Universe, but that it is simply an area of it that is completely closed off tightly via a physical wall separating both"But it can't be assessed without Teleportation" well......yeah? there is a wall in the way, on top of it, it is sealing it away from the outside, of course you can't just fly to there normally, there is a wall with no holes in the way
Edit: pointed by @Nullflowerblush the kanji and term used to describe the barrier is ドラゴンボールの世界では、宇宙はあの世の下に位置し、不思議な文様の刻まれた壁によって密閉されている。—utilizes the kanji, 壁 (kabe), for wall by itself, unlike how the television anime exclusively specifies 次元の壁 or "dimensional walls" when referencing the Room of Spirit and Time and Majin Buu's Outside Space technique
so more proof that the barrier is not a dimensional barrier at all
1.2 Kaioshin Realm physically connected
Similarly to the above, the Kaioshin Realm is said to be separated from the living world and the rest of macrocosm, but not by an Space Time barrier, but by a physical, crystal sphere around it, with the separation it has from the rest of the macrocosm being compared to how the Moon revolves around the Earth, aka a physical distance and separation, physically orbiting around something, in this case, the rest of the Universeby the way, no scan saying that Kaioshin realm or the Afterlife are alternate dimensions is in the currently used cosmology blog, only that they are other "realms" thus their status as alternate dimensions is not something officially said, but a conclusion that we came up with based on the evidence presented, which as i explained above, it is wrong as they are both clearly physically in the same plane as the Living World given all physical descriptions for what separates both from it(A physical barrier and a great distance, respectively)
1.3 Whis' travels
Basically, Whis' fast speed technique called Interplanetary movement(Which is described as him simply going very fast with regular movement speed) and the time it takes to go to places, this proves the connection between the Afterlife and the Living World more, as Whis' technique to go from Beerus' planet(Inside the universe) to the afterlife takes 26 minutes, but to go from Beerus' planet to another point in the universe(Earth) takes 35 minutes, which would be weird if the Afterlife is another space time/dimension. How can 2 points in the same space be further apart than a place that isn't in the same space at all? Sustaining this more, Beerus and Whis even say that Earth is "not too far away" from the Otherworld, and that it takes mere 3 minutes of travel to reach Earth from there.So a supposed other space time is somehow not too far from another(3 minutes of travel), and is significantly far away from another point of it at the same time(26 minutes), and top of it all, 2 points in the same space time are even further away than the distance between the other space time(35 minutes)? This can only be possible if it is physically connected to the Living World, and these distances would be explained by it's position in comparison to these other places, as 3D distance shouldn't really matter when talking about distance from one space time to another
1.4 Demon Realm
Edit: This one is...........the thing that can change the dimensional aspect for the realms, see the Demon Realm is still called as treated as a realm, same terminology, same treatement as the others, yet it is blatantly said to be in another dimension, thus "realms" being used to describe "dimensions" is.....seemingly how they use the term then, and since this comes in the same guide about the physical barriers...........it creates a weird contradiction, therefore i would like for any staff that voted agreeing with the above to give an opinion on this point, else i wouldn't feel like applying the thread
regardless of the above, there is still the space time separation and dimensional barriers point, next section will cover them
2 Dimensions and Dimensional Barriers
2.1 Space Time barriers
As we all got used to over the last many threads, "dimensional space time barriers" is a very utilized argument for the supposed space time separation of the realms in the macrocosm, but the notion of such barriers even existing now without the Toeiverse cross-scaling cosmology is......faulty at best, let's go over the evidence for said barriers in the currently used cosmology blog for the macrocosm:The first scan here is using exclusive scenes from the Toeiverse, so since they are out of the picture now, they're moot
The second scan is the scan used for the afterlife point above, where as i explained, does nothing but say that the afterlife is physically within the space of the living universe with it even describing a physical barrier/wall between them, not some "space time dimensional barrier" just a physical wall between them
this is proven false as the Angel's "Interplanetary movement" ability allows them to travel between all the realms and to other universes, regardless of how the technique works, it clearly isn't teleportation but a speed ability, so whatever argument one might give for what it is, is irelevant, all that matters for this scan to be contradicted is that they simply are not using teleportation at all
As said in the first point, Toeiverse exclusive information, therefore not usable at all for canon as it was separated from it, outside the fact that it contradicts what the manga guides says about the separation there is between the Afterlife and living world, thus making it even more dubious to use
This one isn't saying that there is a different time flow, but that the Afterlife has NO Time Flow as it doesn't have time at all, which is contradicted by several times where time passes in the perspective of those inside it compared to the other realms, making this not quite relevant as it is contradicted
This one is talking exclusively about the Room of Spirit and Time, thus wouldn't be included as evidence of Spatio-Temporal separation for any realm other than it, speaking of which...
2.2 Subspace
As we all know, Subspace is a conceptually timeless-spaceless realm, that is said to be between "dimensions", which is also used to supposedly prove how all the dimensions of the macrocosm are spatio temporally separated as such space being between them would prove that......problem is that the last part is not said, nothing on the scans about the Subspace ever says that it is between the dimensions "of the macrocosm" only that it is vaguely "between dimensions", no specification if it is between the ones in the macrocosm or not, just that it is "between dimensions" which doesn't tell us much regarding which dimensions it is talking about, but considering the dimensions cited alongside the subspace are the likes of the Room of Spirit and Time/Hyperbolic Time Chamber, it is only natural to conclude that it is saying that it is between those dimensions and the Macrocosm.
However, that still doesn't help since those are also not said to be inside the macrocosm anywhere, nor do we have any particular reason to assume they are in the first place, the only statement we have about its placement is that it is "どの世界にも属さない"/"That which doesn't belong to the world" and "この他、【図1】の世界のどこにも属さない「亜空間」が存在している。Also, there are subspaces that don't belong anywhere in the world depicted in [Fig.1]." and "It is a different dimensional world that does not belong to any part of the world"
pretty much all statements about it talk about how it just doesn't belong in the world("world" used to describe the macrocosm in this context) so for all we can say, it isn't even inside the Universe/Macrocosm to begin with, thus using it to prove spatial temporal separation is simply not the way to go, since nothing says that it is even inside of it to begin with
edit 2: while one scan does epecify "the worlds represented in Figure 1" the other scan doesn't specify, mentioning that Subspace doesn't belong anywhere in the "World", which is consistently how the entire Macrocosm is called when no individual realms are cited
edit 3: pointed by @KingTempest Goku can sense and teleport to all the reals of the macrocosm without problem, but he couldn't sense Ki inside of the ROSAT, which is directly credited due to the fact that it's a different dimension
meaning that other dimensions are beyond what Goku can feel and teleport to
2.3 The actual Dimensional Walls
In the famous scene of DBS: Broly, Gogeta and Broly at one point seemingly break reality and go into some weird space, which is confirmed to be outside of reality/Not exist in reality, which is also another dimension that is beyond 3D, this world is also said to be a cracked dimensional wall they broke after distorting space time severely.Now then, we finally see after so long a "Dimensional Wall" that fits the description of a "space time barrier".....however, nothing really is ever said about it being inside the Macrocosm at all, only that it isn't part of "reality", since the entire movie happens inside U7, we can assert that in this context they mean "the reality of U7" aka the dimensional barrier here is separating the entire of U7(Living World, Afterlife, Kaioshin realm, etc) from the outside, meaning that at the Universe is without a doubt a 4D Structure/a Space-Time with what separates it from the other Universes in the 12 universes being this Dimensional Wall, this is even more supported by the dimensional wall mentioned that separates the ROSAT, outside the macrocosm, from the macrocosm.
Which means that the movie retconned the Super Shenron Scene so prominent in the last thread,
3 Conclusion
The Universe in DB is a Low 2-C structure as a whole, with it being separated by a higher than 3D space outside of its reality that needs distorting space time to access, most of the realms are actually connected physically with the Living World and are not separated dimensions at all, most are not even ever called that, and the likes of Subspace has no evidence for being what separates any of the realms in the Universe, and it is even said to not be part of it to begin with alongside the dimension it is in between, like the Room of Spirit and TimeAs a final reminder, flooding in this thread like the last one and the other DB Cosmology threads will result in nothing but me asking for closure and making a staff thread instead to discuss it, therefore, y'all behave so that doesn't need to happen? kay? okay
Agree: KingTempest Flashlight237 Damage3245 .
Disagree: DarkDragonMedeus GarrixianXD Lephyrtherevanchist Qawsedf234 . CloverDragon03 (Disagrees on the Realms not being other dimensions, no opinion on the other points given yet)
Neutral:
@Antvasima :Waiting clarification on his stance
Last edited:
