Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[omegabronic]

I mean if we go back to the klepto mobile example, it was able to keep up with super sonic despite being a busted up Eggmobile that was fighting base Sonic prior, and the only thing Eggman did was add arms he cobbled together in 5 minutes.

how do you know this? what is the evidence for such affirmation

So we have a machine that is effectively fighting both base and super form level entities

which one is the upgraded version of the Eggmobile, the other is not

base Eggman already scales in speed without machines to base form stuff

which doesn't matter here, as it doesn't prove anything

, his machine when barely anything changed about it (and visibly nothing changed in terms of speed)

......the fact that it is keeping up with Super Forms level foes shows a change in speed

kept up with super form level stuff, I think there’s a scaling chain there.

the Kleptomobile is Eggman altering his Eggmobile with....something, we have no details of its creation, we don't know HOW he made it, the point you are arguing also would make Base Chars scale in power which.....no, all in all we have nothing in detail about the Kleptomobile for anything scaling wise for base forms

These points are meant to coalesce together into the general idea of base forms downscaling super form speed so, I think they are relevant.

no because Wivern has nothing to do with any machine Eggman built, and you also ignore all the times Super Forms level foes completely blitzed base forms(Time Eater, Giganto, Super Neo Metal, etc) so no

Yet he also outruns multiple energy shots from Time Eater in that same cutscene

in the final blow where he is overpowered he is also blitzed, he litterally can't react as TE attacks him, with Eggman even saying he was holding back with the TE

doesn't matter, Eggman explained why

, and he was already in the air and homing attacking when TE hit him, so it’s not really a blitz.

nope, he was on the ground

Diablon is one instance in the adventure era, it doesn’t contradict the idea that Eggman got faster as the eras progressed (hell he didn’t do any kind of blitzing at all in his base form prior to the modern era so that’s proof he got faster).

you ignored the entire point of "machine inside = boost in speed for the one inside" that is a thing that happened in the series, by proxy it happens again to explain Eggman final bosses machines, meanwhile Eggman himself being Super Form level in speed is supported by nothing really

Moreover, if he just had this sort of device available to reach super sonic speed

an example i gave, we don't know HOW, that is the point

We even see that his eggmobile can briefly outpace Super Sonic in Unleashed

no, Sonic cassually destroying his ship is no proof of scaling, you are reaching hard now

and he can pilot the Eggmobile to avoid hazards

congrats for him? "he can avoid stuff while piloting it" so what?

I think you’re using the term outlier wrong, isn’t the Giganto instance the outlier if it’s 2 vs 1.

considering all the other examples that outpaced those 2 instances i would say you are

I can tell it’s via speed because he also outspeeds other Titans throughout the game

two situations not related to the scene in questions does not provide your theory about it, come on hear yourself, you are saying Base Sonic is so fast that Giganto can't react to him at all even after multiple attacks? when Giganto blitz imediatly afterwards? when Giganto can keep up with Super Sonic no problem? Base Sonic >>>> Super Sonic??????

and in this case it’s very clearly with speed because you’re thrown into segments where you’re required to outrun the Titan to proceed.

which are contradicted by many situations that i already listed

Sure, I guess in IDW the speed gap is more highlighted, but even then base Sonic still managed to somewhat keep up with super Metal (albeit barely)

he didn't, at all, Metal was joking with them and they couldn't react to him at all, unless when he was joking with them to allow it such

, which like…I was talking about downscaling anyway.

which doesn't work as they don't scale to him in any capacity whatsoever

 

[Ghengiroo115]

and Chaos Energy beings on the level of a super form can ignore said durability, as seen by the likes of Eggsalamander and Solaris, so if Final Weapon is powered by the Chaos Energy of the master emerald it would have one shot easily Super Sonic without any difficulty at all, and would tank all of his attacks with no problem as well......see the problem?

Having Chaos energy doesn’t automatically mean you can bypass a Super form’s Invulnerability, which can be seen with the Giant Eggman Robo’s Master Emerald laser, Heavy King, maybe Super Mecha Sonic (I can’t remember if you can use Super forms against him outside of cheats or not), the Titans (outside of one specific attack each) and even with the current Final Weapon scaling already.

But eh, I don’t really care anymore. It was never a super serious question, and I have a red & green coloured new announcement to hyperfocus on now so I don’t feel like going any further.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Also I just wanna play devil’s advocate for a moment and say Giganto didn’t “blitz” Sonic, he just grabbed Sonic while he was airborn and vulnerable. The climbing section later on as well as every interaction with the later Titans affirms that base Sonic was intended to be as fast as the Titans.

Of course none of this matters since base cast being Super form tier in speed doesn’t make any sense based on most other portrayals both in-game and in-lore, but yeah in the context of just Frontiers I do think the intention was for base Sonic to be comparable to the four Titans in speed.

 

[omegabronic]

Having Chaos energy doesn’t automatically mean you can bypass a Super form’s Invulnerability, which can be seen with the Giant Eggman Robo’s Master Emerald laser,

"on the level of a Super Form" as clarified by Knuckles' profile in Sonic Channel, only Knuckles can use the ME power properly, thus even IF the Giant Eggman Robo is using it, it isn't on the level of a Super Form

Heavy King

which doesn't use Chaos energy at all

, maybe Super Mecha Sonic (I can’t remember if you can use Super forms against him outside of cheats or not)

you can't

, the Titans (outside of one specific attack each)

which proves that they can

and even with the current Final Weapon scaling already.

which doesn't have actual proof of using Chaos Energy, thus the argument i used about it being incapable of harming Super Sonic

 

[omegabronic]

Also I just wanna play devil’s advocate for a moment and say Giganto didn’t “blitz” Sonic, he just grabbed Sonic while he was airborn and vulnerable.

he can stomp to do a boost to the ground, he was anything but helpless, specially with all the mobility options Sonic has on the air

The climbing section later on as well as every interaction with the later Titans affirms that base Sonic was intended to be as fast as the Titans.

yet Giganto blitzes him

 

[Snek]

I mean ya that sounds plausible after all sonic had enough time to look surprised and say huh. It's just wierd that he didn't bother trying to use the boost or any other ability to move but hey plots gotta plot. As for the speed thing have we considered the possibility that the titans suppress themselves until they're actually in danger even when they're bloodlusted. After all they don't activate the rest of their weapons until half health despite super sonic kicking their teeth in lol. And the killing intent is clearly there too since giganto eats sonic once he runs out of super sonic regardless of what phase he's in but is chill before sonic proves he's actually a threat.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

he can stomp to do a boost to the ground, he was anything but helpless, specially with all the mobility options Sonic has on the air

True actually yeah, though tbf does Sonic ever use the stomp in cutscenes?

Either way it doesn’t really matter, as I don’t see Sonic being blitzed after rewatching the cutscene. He reacts to Giganto’s stomps perfectly fine, reacts to the rocks flying upwards when he knows what’s coming, and before Giganto’s grab Sonic’s too focused on how he didn’t deal any damage. Also we see Sonic squirming in Giganto’s hand before he gets thrown, which wouldn’t make sense unless we assume Giganto’s grab was for no reason the single Titan interaction out of all of them that is Super form-level fast.

yet Giganto blitzes him

I said that I was only talking about the intention within Frontiers itself, as Super form downscaling is contradicted by a million different things outside of Frontiers. As such even if Giganto did blitz him in that instance, it would be the outlier when compared to just the feats in Frontiers.

Idk why we’re even doing this, I just wanted to talk about the narrative intention within a single game lol

 

[Fireld]

though tbf does Sonic ever use the stomp in cutscenes?

Yes

 

[JJSliderman]

True actually yeah, though tbf does Sonic ever use the stomp in cutscenes?

Either way it doesn’t really matter, as I don’t see Sonic being blitzed after rewatching the cutscene. He reacts to Giganto’s stomps perfectly fine, reacts to the rocks flying upwards when he knows what’s coming, and before Giganto’s grab Sonic’s too focused on how he didn’t deal any damage. Also we see Sonic squirming in Giganto’s hand before he gets thrown, which wouldn’t make sense unless we assume Giganto’s grab was for no reason the single Titan interaction out of all of them that is Super form-level fast.


I said that I was only talking about the intention within Frontiers itself, as Super form downscaling is contradicted by a million different things outside of Frontiers. As such even if Giganto did blitz him in that instance, it would be the outlier when compared to just the feats in Frontiers.

Idk why we’re even doing this, I just wanted to talk about the narrative intention within a single game lol

Tbf most of the time when super forms are discussed it’s mainly just needing to be more powerful. There are very few times where super forms are required specifically for their enhanced speed, and the amount of instances where base forms are comparable or downscaling is honestly equal or greater than when blitzing occurs.

Specifically for speed, power is obviously much different.

 

[Alexander]

I dislike using the term "outlier" super liberally too, but stuff like Base Classic Knuckles being Super Sonic tier is the definition of an outlier

The same goes to roshi destroying the moon

 

[omegabronic]

Idk why we’re even doing this, I just wanted to talk about the narrative intention within a single game lol

i try to understand Digimon lore, what made you believe i was right in my mental faculties to begin with?

 

[CloverDragon03]

The same goes to roshi destroying the moon

Thinks Roshi destroying the moon is an outlier

What in the 2017?

 

[omegabronic]

Tbf most of the time when super forms are discussed it’s mainly just needing to be more powerful. There are very few times where super forms are required specifically for their enhanced speed, and the amount of instances where base forms are comparable or downscaling is honestly equal or greater than when blitzing occurs.

it isn't tho

Specifically for speed, power is obviously much different.

yet one of the examples you used is for Power as much as it is for speed?

 

[JJSliderman]

Klepto Mobile is both because frankly, I think it's a big stretch that Eggman somehow found something to make his egg mobile infinitely faster (or that classic sonic somehow gets infinitely slower just by going back to the past?) in the 5 minutes between boss fights.

And yeah, considering Time Eater, possibly Dark Gaia, Super Mocha, Eggmobile, Heavy King/Phantom Ruby, Super Neo Metal, and the Titans, I think there is a fair amount of downscaling evidence in the speed department.

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Super Mocha

Who gave coffee a Super form?

 

[Theuser789]

I would rather not do any downscaling for the time being.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I would rather not do any downscaling for the time being.

If we change the baseline level of a super form to be closer to base, rather than inherently Low 2-C for arbitrary reasons, we can fix a lot of inconsistances though. Right now, I see no reason for baseline Super forms to be Low 2-C, especially not via scaling to the world rings

 

[CloverDragon03]

Sonic's got a number of outliers, simple as that. Same goes for pretty much any massive long-running franchise. There's no basis for a Low 1-C baseline beyond "trying to reconcile some inconsistencies", which I find to be a fruitless endeavor

 

[omegabronic]

Klepto Mobile is both because frankly, I think it's a big stretch that Eggman somehow found something to make his egg mobile infinitely faster (or that classic sonic somehow gets infinitely slower just by going back to the past?) in the 5 minutes between boss fights.

just shows how much of a genius he truly is tbh

And yeah, considering Time Eater

which Blitzed Sonic while Holding back

, possibly Dark Gaia

which doesn't really have anything notable really

, Super Mocha

which..........arguably isn't even a Super Form level tier due to his clear weakness compared to literal any other Super Form

, Eggmobile

.......which doesn't have any feats on a Super Form level without any other assistance

, Heavy King/Phantom Ruby

both which do not scale to base chars until Sonic Forces, which they have other scaling to past Super Forms without it

, Super Neo Metal

this is major cap and cope ngl, SUPER NEO COMPLETELY AND CASUALLY BLITZED BOTH SONIC AND KNUCKLES AT THE SAME TIME WITHOUT ANY DIFFICULTY saying that they scale, in any capacity to him is nothing but a LIE, there is no other way to call it

, and the Titans

in which 1 blitz Sonic when it actually moves to attack him

I think there is a fair amount of downscaling evidence in the speed department.

you only showed 2 legitimate examples while also showing 3 clear showing of clear non downscaling at all tho, 2 of them EXTREMELY EXPLICIT EVEN

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Sonic's got a number of outliers, simple as that. Same goes for pretty much any massive long-running franchise. There's no basis for a Low 1-C baseline beyond "trying to reconcile some inconsistencies", which I find to be a fruitless endeavor

Like I said, that's not what I'm going for.

 

[JJSliderman]

just shows how much of a genius he truly is tbh

Okay sure, that's definitely more logical than just "the egg mobile is naturally keeping up with super forms when it already did that"

which Blitzed Sonic while Holding back

Time Eater basically never blitzes Sonic, it just one-shots him but never actually heavily outspeeds him. Landing hits on someone who you are comparable to in speed is normal.

which doesn't really have anything notable really

Besides fighting Gaia Colossus and keeping up with it, which is downscaling Super Sonic.

which..........arguably isn't even a Super Form level tier due to his clear weakness compared to literal any other Super Form

His weakness is...he loses the transformation over time. Which, is a thing all super forms do.

.......which doesn't have any feats on a Super Form level without any other assistance

Besides temporarily outpacing Super Sonic and keeping pace with Ultimate Gemerl in Advance 3 ig.

both which do not scale to base chars until Sonic Forces, which they have other scaling to past Super Forms without it

It's still scaling to Super form level speed since the PR is the same in both games and base Sonic keeps up with DER amped by it.

this is major cap and cope ngl, SUPER NEO COMPLETELY AND CASUALLY BLITZED BOTH SONIC AND KNUCKLES AT THE SAME TIME WITHOUT ANY DIFFICULTY saying that they scale, in any capacity to him is nothing but a LIE, there is no other way to call it

There is multiple panels where Sonic is shown having spin dash clashes with Super Neo Metal, sure they are slower but not to a degree where they're statued.

in which 1 blitz Sonic when it actually moves to attack him

You know Sonic kinda gets better stats throughout the game and Giganto is kinda the first Titan?

 

[omegabronic]

Okay sure, that's definitely more logical than just "the egg mobile is naturally keeping up with super forms when it already did that"

exept that it isn't just the Eggmobile and that it never kept up with any super form level opponent without outside assistance first

Time Eater basically never blitzes Sonic, it just one-shots him but never actually heavily outspeeds him. Landing hits on someone who you are comparable to in speed is normal.

Exept that Sonic is unable to react as Time Eater attacks him in the cutscene before its final fight, Sonic looks at it, and is unable to do anything to dodge it, even with completely blitz speed amps like the boost to use, which make people comparable to him look frozen in place and with his 4x greater reaction speed, yeah see, he did blitz him, that is not an argument to be had, that is a fact that happened

Besides fighting Gaia Colossus and keeping up with it, which is downscaling Super Sonic.

Gaia Colossus is powered by the same thing as Super Sonic, there is no dowscaling, they straight up scale to each other, in this case you are saying that there is no difference in speed between Super Sonic and Base Sonic at this point

His weakness is...he loses the transformation over time.

30 seconds

Which, is a thing all super forms do.

it isn't, we don't need to go over this again, Super Forms have NO time limit, heck Sonic stayed in Super for 3 whole days in the first advance game, come on

Besides temporarily outpacing Super Sonic

never happened, a casual Super Sonic who was not even following him the whole time was never outpaced by him at all in any point

and keeping pace with Ultimate Gemerl in Advance 3 ig.

you mean the fight which the whole mechanic is Super Sonic empowering the Eggmobile? yeah, what of it?

It's still scaling to Super form level speed since the PR is the same in both games and base Sonic keeps up with DER amped by it.

.......did you read what i said? don't try to twist the point

both which do not scale to base chars until Sonic Forces, which they have other scaling to past Super Forms without it

as i said, that says NOTHING on the scaling to current Super Forms compared to PRESENT base forms, as is therefore, useless in this debate

There is multiple panels where Sonic is shown having spin dash clashes with Super Neo Metal

in which he wasn't trying at all and cassually blitzed both Sonic and Knuckles in the middle of it while mocking them both, as i said, NO DOWNSCALING HERE AT ALL, HE IS BLITZING THEM CASUALLY LEFT AND RIGHT

, sure they are slower but not to a degree where they're statued.

Yes they are, you saying otherwise is nothing but cope

You know Sonic kinda gets better stats throughout the game and Giganto is kinda the first Titan?

exept that nothing changes even if you don't upgrade yourself in anyway through the game for those scenes, therefore it is irrelevant, also i like how this is irrelevant for your point as you are trying to say that "Current Super Sonic ~ Base Sonic" yet when someone shows the enemy that fought him in Super Form blitzing him your narrative changes, curious

 

[Snek]

Just saw some gameplay from sonic x shadow generations and guys... Chaos soda is real lol

 

[JJSliderman]

exept that it isn't just the Eggmobile and that it never kept up with any super form level opponent without outside assistance first

Sorry, it’s the Eggmobile with arms!
Yeah somehow that makes it blitz worthy faster okay.

Exept that Sonic is unable to react as Time Eater attacks him in the cutscene before its final fight, Sonic looks at it, and is unable to do anything to dodge it, even with completely blitz speed amps like the boost to use, which make people comparable to him look frozen in place and with his 4x greater reaction speed, yeah see, he did blitz him, that is not an argument to be had, that is a fact that happened

Sonic did not even use the boost against TE in that cutscene so idk what you’re arguing here.

Gaia Colossus is powered by the same thing as Super Sonic, there is no dowscaling, they straight up scale to each other, in this case you are saying that there is no difference in speed between Super Sonic and Base Sonic at this point

The Chaos Emeralds straight up leave Gaia Colossus at one point and it still downscales PDG so, nah. And after the CE leave it is downscaling because Chip, while still being able to slug DG and deflect its super beam, would lose without assistance. And Chip without any Emeralds and in his imo form could still react to Semi-Perfect, and Chip in that state is treated as comparable to base Sonic. So, reactions wise, Chip ~ Semi Perfect ~ Gaia Colossus <= PDG.

it isn't, we don't need to go over this again, Super Forms have NO time limit, heck Sonic stayed in Super for 3 whole days in the first advance game, come on

Saying super forms don’t have a time limit is BS when 80% of the games show they have a time limit, just because SS stayed in that form for 3 days doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a time limit. SS wasn’t doing anything strenuous there unlike every other super form boss.

never happened, a casual Super Sonic who was not even following him the whole time was never outpaced by him at all in any point

I mean, yeah he was, after his mech gets destroyed the Eggmobile ejects and manages to keep ahead of Super Sonic briefly when Sonic is chasing after him. And, yeah, he is chasing him effectively the entire time.

you mean the fight which the whole mechanic is Super Sonic empowering the Eggmobile? yeah, what of it?

Him “empowering” the Eggmobile is just him throwing it at Gemerl, not boosting its speed.

.......did you read what i said? don't try to twist the point

as i said, that says NOTHING on the scaling to current Super Forms compared to PRESENT base forms, as is therefore, useless in this debate

Except Phantom King is fought by a post-Time Eater Classic Sonic so he is, technically, a “modern” super form level threat.

in which he wasn't trying at all and cassually blitzed both Sonic and Knuckles in the middle of it while mocking them both, as i said, NO DOWNSCALING HERE AT ALL, HE IS BLITZING THEM CASUALLY LEFT AND RIGHT


Yes they are, you saying otherwise is nothing but cope

I mean there is very clearly scenes where both Sonic and Metal are fighting and Sonic is managing to dodge Metal to some degree.

exept that nothing changes even if you don't upgrade yourself in anyway through the game for those scenes, therefore it is irrelevant, also i like how this is irrelevant for your point as you are trying to say that "Current Super Sonic ~ Base Sonic" yet when someone shows the enemy that fought him in Super Form blitzing him your narrative changes, curious

Even though Giganto never actually blitzes and he just grabs Sonic out of the air. Tagging someone does not =/= blitz, there are better examples in IDW like the Zavok scene.

 

[omegabronic]

Sorry, it’s the Eggmobile with arms!
Yeah somehow that makes it blitz worthy faster okay.

"....and most likely a bunch of other augumentations we don't know about since it is never clarified"
and Super Sonic/Chaos Emeralds>>Boost and Spin Dash, both gigablitz amps, therefore it would be regardless

Sonic did not even use the boost against TE in that cutscene so idk what you’re arguing here.

that's the point genius, he couldn't react to use it

The Chaos Emeralds straight up leave Gaia Colossus at one point

after powering him up for all we know

and it still downscales PDG so, nah.

it just scales, it's barrier that Super Sonic can't pass through? Gaia Colosus can force his way through it, Dark Gaia's strongest energy attacks? it can block them easily and then punch him in the face knocking him back significantly, doing so MULTIPLE times while inside its shield, showing no problem whatsoever in keeping up with it in any capacity

And after the CE leave it is downscaling because Chip, while still being able to slug

he does everything but "slug" it, he straight fights it on very similar grounds

DG and deflect its super beam, would lose without assistance.

yeah, because DG has multiple arms to pin it down and make it unable to attack back or move..............again, why does this matter for the fact that it just straight up scales to PDG in speed without any issue?

And Chip without any Emeralds and in his imo form could still react to Semi-Perfect, and Chip in that state is treated as comparable to base Sonic.

he isn't, that is also a lie, Sonic can barely harm DG's weakspots, Gaia Collosus can knock down PDG's main body and fight against it for an extended period of time, Base Sonic isn't even shit in comparison

So, reactions wise, Chip ~ Semi Perfect ~ Gaia Colossus <= PDG.

exept that he can react to PDG and outspeed him in several instances

Saying super forms don’t have a time limit is BS when 80% of the games show they have a time limit, just because SS stayed in that form for 3 days doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a time limit.

it does when no game ever says that it does, show me any evidence of a time limit in the games and then we talk, your personal belief is not proof of anything

SS wasn’t doing anything strenuous there unlike every other super form boss.

Infinite stamina, his effort put in fights is not relevant

I mean, yeah he was, after his mech gets destroyed the Eggmobile ejects and manages to keep ahead of Super Sonic briefly when Sonic is chasing after him.

ARE YOU TRYING TO GET ME MAD? STOP IGNORING MY POINTS TO FIT YOUR NARRATIVE

never happened, a casual Super Sonic who was not even following him the whole time was never outpaced by him at all in any point

casual Super Sonic who isn't trying is not a case of scaling

ignore my points again and this talk ends right here and there, holy f### dude

And, yeah, he is chasing him effectively the entire time.

he wasn't, he stopped pretty early on to destroy the Egg Fleet, again, watch the scene again before saying anything

Him “empowering” the Eggmobile is just him throwing it at Gemerl, not boosting its speed.

"Him charging him with Chaos Energy, which raises power and speed, doesn't mean that it is raising it's speed"
you have to be kidding me.........when are you going to show proof of anything you are saying instead of just saying it?

Except Phantom King is fought by a post-Time Eater Classic Sonic so he is, technically, a “modern” super form level threat.

it isn't since Classic Sonic goes back to being on that era's level as he goes back, current profile makes that clear, so no, he isn't "modern era super form" level in any capacity, why do you think Trip and the Rest of the classic cast are 5-A and FTL?

I mean there is very clearly scenes where both Sonic and Metal are fighting and Sonic is managing to dodge Metal to some degree.

......ok i am convinced you are ignoring the evidence or purpose at this point

in which he wasn't trying at all and cassually blitzed both Sonic and Knuckles in the middle of it while mocking them both, as i said, NO DOWNSCALING HERE AT ALL, HE IS BLITZING THEM CASUALLY LEFT AND RIGHT

again, this doesn't show anything but him blitzing both of them without any effort

Even though Giganto never actually blitzes and he just grabs Sonic out of the air.

with Sonic unable to react to it at all, aka the definition of a speed blitz

Tagging someone does not =/= blitz,

it is when said someone can't react to it at all

there are better examples in IDW like the Zavok scene.

thank you, another example that shows "Super Forms>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Base Forms" in speed

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Chill

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah it's clear this is getting mad heated so I'd say just drop it here. I don't think either of you are gonna convince each other at this rate anyway

 

[JJSliderman]

"....and most likely a bunch of other augumentations we don't know about since it is never clarified"
and Super Sonic/Chaos Emeralds>>Boost and Spin Dash, both gigablitz amps, therefore it would be regardless

Literally show all these extra augmentations because all I see is those fat arms.

that's the point genius, he couldn't react to use it

Or maybe he was already homing attacking and couldn’t stop his momentum before TE hit him.

And TE is blatantly way stronger so it’s not like Sonic could just get up and try again.

after powering him up for all we know

So, headcanon.

it just scales, it's barrier that Super Sonic can't pass through? Gaia Colosus can force his way through it, Dark Gaia's strongest energy attacks? it can block them easily and then punch him in the face knocking him back significantly, doing so MULTIPLE times while inside its shield, showing no problem whatsoever in keeping up with it in any capacity

If Sonic does nothing then Gaia Colossus just dies against PDG, that’s the entire point of breaking through the barrier as Sonic to begin with.

he does everything but "slug" it, he straight fights it on very similar grounds

That’s what slugging means…

he isn't, that is also a lie, Sonic can barely harm DG's weakspots, Gaia Collosus can knock down PDG's main body and fight against it for an extended period of time, Base Sonic isn't even shit in comparison

“barely harm” even though he obliterates DG’s eyes and Werehog’s power was the reason Semi-Perfect happened.

except that he can react to PDG and outspeed him in several instances

and Base Sonic can outspeed SPDG’s projectiles when racing towards him.

it does when no game ever says that it does, show me any evidence of a time limit in the games and then we talk, your personal belief is not proof of anything

Show evidence of a time limit…
You know besides Sonic Adventure, Adventure 2, Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, ‘06, Riders 1-3, Frontiers, Forces, Colors, should I continue.

Infinite stamina, his effort put in fights is not relevant

Clearly it does, because the only times he can stay in the form for a super long time without rings are when he has no enemies to fight.

he wasn't, he stopped pretty early on to destroy the Egg Fleet, again, watch the scene again before saying anything

I have seen the scene, him destroying the egg fleet is just collateral of him chasing Robotnik, he still ultimately is chasing but just taking a slightly longer path. Plus, if the Eggmobile was infinitely slower then Sonic would have caught him anyway immediately.

"Him charging him with Chaos Energy, which raises power and speed, doesn't mean that it is raising it's speed"
you have to be kidding me.........when are you going to show proof of anything you are saying instead of just saying it?

When are you going to show proof he’s charging the Eggmobile with speed or chaos energy instead of just chucking it.

it isn't since Classic Sonic goes back to being on that era's level as he goes back, current profile makes that clear, so no, he isn't "modern era super form" level in any capacity, why do you think Trip and the Rest of the classic cast are 5-A and FTL?

Yeah, I think that’s BS, it’s headcanon that Sonic just randomly becomes infinitely weaker via time traveling to the past.

......ok i am convinced you are ignoring the evidence or purpose at this point

again, this doesn't show anything but him blitzing both of them without any effort

It’s in the background when Knuckles is running up the Emerald altar.

with Sonic unable to react to it at all, aka the definition of a speed blitz

He visibly looks shocked at Giganto about to grab him, plus he was already in the air post homing attack so it’s not like there was much he could do anyway?

it is when said someone can't react to it at all

So Sonic gets tagged once and you say he can’t react at all, even though if that was true the entire rest of the game wouldn’t work because the Titans would blitz Sonic before he even is able to get on their back and grab the Emerald.

thank you, another example that shows "Super Forms>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Base Forms" in speed

Yeah like, one and a half examples, it’s not as damning as you’d think.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Try it if you want but I can't imagine it'd go well for you

 

[JJSliderman]

There could be 50 million examples and it still wouldn’t go through sadly.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Idk man personally I just think the argument's bad

 

[JJSliderman]

The Frontiers stuff is pretty blatant but alright.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Blatant outliers, yes

 

[JJSliderman]

Outlier even though it’s the most recent 3D game to have super sonic and sonic is stated to be at his fastest ever in the marketing.

 

[CloverDragon03]

That... doesn't make it not an outlier lol

And we tend to take pure marketing statements like that with a grain of salt when weighed against the proper feats/scaling

 

[JJSliderman]

Except the statement is used in the scaling blog and is even the justification for scaling above the triple boost from Forces.

Moreover if Base Sonic is constantly increasing his stats with his AD and has even surpassed certain super form level entities, I think him being able to match the speed of them when he’s all about speed makes sense.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean it's not like I'm telling you not to think that

Also he is faster than some Super Form level entities. Just not the Immeasurable speed ones

 

[JJSliderman]

He has an immeasurable speed feat in base already on his profile, atp I don’t see why he can’t just scale in speed to some immeasurable super form stuff if the evidence is there.

 

[CloverDragon03]

He has an immeasurable speed feat in base already on his profile, atp I don’t see why he can’t just scale in speed to some immeasurable super form stuff if the evidence is there.

One very specific feat, which is accounted for in how the rating's listed. What you're suggesting basically means that Sonic doesn't get much faster, if at all, when he goes Super

 

[JJSliderman]

Honestly, no, I don’t think he is getting much faster now, considering he can already sort of keep up with immeasurable entities in base from a speed perspective. Four of them.