Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[JJSliderman]

Yeah. Unless we arbitrarily decide to call the nunerous instancea of scaling to Super level foes outliers now.

If the Dark Gaia CRT passes that’s another possible instance of downscaling to super forms.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Pretty sure baseline Hyper is currently accepted as superior to peak Super. That's why it doesn't have a variable tier.

Yeah, I was saying that Hyper’s Low 1-C rating is only vaguely above Super’s. Theoretically baseline Hyper could be only a bit stronger than peak Super.

Besides, Super Sonic had no narrative reason to be at max power here.

I mean I feel like Eggman having access to an incredibly powerful artifact would be enough, especially since Sonic’s gone full-power against stuff that (to his limited knowledge at the time) weren’t as high stakes like the first three Titans.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Yeah, I was saying that Hyper’s Low 1-C rating is only vaguely above Super’s. Theoretically baseline Hyper could be only a bit stronger than peak Super.


I mean I feel like Eggman having access to an incredibly powerful artifact would be enough, especially since Sonic’s gone full-power against stuff that (to his limited knowledge at the time) weren’t as high stakes like the first three Titans.

Final Weapon scaling ABOVE peak Super Sonic would also make it relative or superior to Metal Overlord and Solaris, which also contradicts the narrative. Is there even any evidence that Final Weapon was powered by the Master Emerald and not just stealing it?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Say, shouldn’t the Final Weapon be 6D? It takes no damage from Hyper Sonic, can harm itself with its missiles and has an excuse to be this strong thanks to the Master Emerald.

Hyper Sonic is dubiously canon and you can fight Final Weapon as either Super Sonic or Hyper Sonic. You can't have both

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Final Weapon scaling ABOVE peak Super Sonic would also make it relative or superior to Metal Overlord and Solaris, which also contradicts the narrative.

Wait, how so? From what I remember all they say is that the Chaos Emeralds alone aren’t enough to beat Overlord and Solaris, but I don’t see how the Final Weapon being relative to them contradicts anything. If there’s something I’m missing though then yeah that would be an issue.

Is there even any evidence that Final Weapon was powered by the Master Emerald and not just stealing it?

It can go either way, but if you did go for the 6D scaling then the only logical assumption would be that the Master Emerald powers it.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Hyper Sonic is dubiously canon

Yeah true, though I was under the (I guess wrong?) assumption that the wiki considered it canon.

Although if Hyper isn’t canon, it makes me wonder what’s up with the cracked and dormant Super Emeralds in Mania.

and you can fight Final Weapon as either Super Sonic or Hyper Sonic. You can't have both

Super and Hyper Sonic both have Invulnerability so the fight should work using either one.

 

[Omegabronic]

If the Dark Gaia CRT passes that’s another possible instance of downscaling to super forms.

As accepted in the scaling blog, the difference in power between Super Forms and Base Forms remains the same as the latter grow in power, scalling to past super forms aside, any scaling to present day super forms is a no

 

[Omegabronic]

Yeah true, though I was under the (I guess wrong?) assumption that the wiki considered it canon.

Although if Hyper isn’t canon, it makes me wonder what’s up with the cracked and dormant Super Emeralds in Mania.


Super and Hyper Sonic both have Invulnerability so the fight should work using either one.

and Chaos Energy beings on the level of a super form can ignore said durability, as seen by the likes of Eggsalamander and Solaris, so if Final Weapon is powered by the Chaos Energy of the master emerald it would have one shot easily Super Sonic without any difficulty at all, and would tank all of his attacks with no problem as well......see the problem?

 

[JJSliderman]

As accepted in the scaling blog, the difference in power between Super Forms and Base Forms remains the same as the latter grow in power, scalling to past super forms aside, any scaling to present day super forms is a no

The difference would still be likely thousands of times given that the eye takes far less to damage than the main body (or maybe the eyes are just low 2-C)

 

[Omegabronic]

The difference would still be likely thousands of times given that the eye takes far less to damage than the main body (or maybe the eyes are just low 2-C)

and the difference btween Super Forms and Base forms is infinities apart, "thousands" is not even close to being enough

 

[CloverDragon03]

As accepted in the scaling blog, the difference in power between Super Forms and Base Forms remains the same as the latter grow in power, scalling to past super forms aside, any scaling to present day super forms is a no

You keep saying that Super Forms grow in response to Base Forms. You know I have my opinions on this, but that aside, where in the blog is this stated?

 

[Omegabronic]

You keep saying that Super Forms grow in response to Base Forms. You know I have my opinions on this, but that aside, where in the blog is this stated?

"As shown in Sonic Frontiers, a Super Form grows alongside the user, with every increase in power and speed the base for receives being proportionally added to the Super Form as well"

 

[CloverDragon03]

Which blog is this...?

I also tested this and it's not even true, at least not for speed, and while it applies for power in-game that could very easily just be a game mechanic lol

 

[Omegabronic]

Which blog is this...?

the powerscalling blog linked in the blog sections of the verse page....?

I also tested this and it's not even true, at least not for speed, and while it applies for power in-game that could very easily just be a game mechanic lol

we accept is as a thing that happens to Sonic in game, Sonic's speed raising in game only works for giving power boost at max level pretty much, which Sonic doesn't use in Super Sonic for some reason, his base speed stays the same, if one is affected, the same method will affect all of said method

also shown by how Super Sonic can harm and keep up with The End(cannonically the strongest vilain as of now) with only 1 ally when against Solaris he needed 3, more proof even in how Dark Gaia, a vilain Super Sonic struggled to defeat, only has severe downscaling from The End, which Sonic comparatively had less struggle than Dark Gaia, it is consistent, Frontiers does but confirm what we have always saw

 

[CloverDragon03]

we accept is as a thing that happens to Sonic in game, Sonic's speed raising in game only works for giving power boost at max level pretty much, which Sonic doesn't use in Super Sonic for some reason, his base speed stays the same, if one is affected, the same method will affect all of said method

Just because we currently accept it doesn't mean it doesn't suck

We accept Sonic being 4x stronger at the end of Frontiers compared to the beginning of it based on in-game damage numbers. Doesn't mean it doesn't suck lol

also shown by how Super Sonic can harm and keep up with The End(cannonically the strongest vilain as of now) with only 1 ally when against Solaris he needed 3, more proof even in how Dark Gaia, a vilain Super Sonic struggled to defeat, only has severe downscaling from The End, which Sonic comparatively had less struggle than Dark Gaia, it is consistent, Frontiers does but confirm what we have always saw

Or it's just... more power from the Chaos Emeralds lol, they explicitly vary in power

 

[Omegabronic]

Just because we currently accept it doesn't mean it doesn't suck

We accept Sonic being 4x stronger at the end of Frontiers compared to the beginning of it based on in-game damage numbers. Doesn't mean it doesn't suck lol

in this case none of them suck

Or it's just... more power from the Chaos Emeralds lol, they explicitly vary in power

considering that all 3 are the Emeralds at their "full power", thus they don't have more to give than that, and the other situation like Metal Overlord where even at full power and with allies as strong as him Sonic couldn't harm Metal at all without combining powers with his allies for a mega charged attack, while The End, who is superior, can be harmed by him and Supreme normally with a significant less charge time.......yeah, it is pretty blatant that he grew in power in Super

 

[Lenyo456]

Can someone summarize everything for me?

 

[CloverDragon03]

in this case none of them suck

Bro thinks the 4x multiplier is valid I'm SICK

considering that all 3 are the Emeralds at their "full power", thus they don't have more to give than that, and the other situation like Metal Overlord where even at full power and with allies as strong as him Sonic couldn't harm Metal at all without combining powers with his allies for a mega charged attack, while The End, who is superior, can be harmed by him and Supreme normally with a significant less charge time.......yeah, it is pretty blatant that he grew in power in Super

Is it actually ever stated these are the Emeralds "at their full power" in these instances?

 

[Omegabronic]

Is it actually ever stated these are the Emeralds "at their full power" in these instances?

From the context which they happened, regardless, the Metal overlord example covers the point no matter what due to the charge time point, so

 

[CloverDragon03]

You didn't answer my question

 

[Omegabronic]

You didn't answer my question

i did tho

From the context which they happened, regardless, the Metal overlord example covers the point no matter what due to the charge time point, so

 

[CloverDragon03]

Is it actually ever stated these are the Emeralds "at their full power" in these instances?

 

[Theuser789]

No super form downscaling, please.

 

[JJSliderman]

Okay but to be honest, they should downscale in speed, I think there’s too many instances.

 

[Omegabronic]

Okay but to be honest, they should downscale in speed, I think there’s too many instances.

There isn't

 

[JJSliderman]

Time Eater, literally every single Eggman super form tier invention he pilots, Wyvern (all the Titans really), Super Mecha Sonic

 

[CloverDragon03]

No

 

[JJSliderman]

I think it’s kinda dumb to say Eggman is somehow capable of piloting machines and reacting to enemies infinitely faster than his normal speed just because he’s in a cockpit of a super form level machine, when none of said machines have free will.

 

[CloverDragon03]

K

 

[Snek]

True but it's also dumb that the klepto mobile can keep up with super sonic when the phantom egg lost to sonic in base. Despite it having the phantom ruby built into it unlike the klepto mobile.

Really most sonic writers never think of the most basic forms of powerscaling to the point of sometimes defying basic common sense.

For example as much as I love scrapnik island it makes no sense for mecha sonic to be on par with sonic. Even if you believe sonic hasn't gotten stronger over the years he's at least more skilled and versatile while mecha sonic decayed for god knows how long after losing to a younger sonic. Therefore if sonic beat him before he should beat him again just easier this time.

There's an easy fix for this too but that's not the point. Rather it's that on rare occasions like all of forces sonic is as inconsistent as cw flash and there's very little we can do about it.

 

[Omegabronic]

Time Eater

which blitzed Sonic

literally every single Eggman super form tier invention he pilots

Which all faced Super Sonic and not regular Sonic, only relevant for modern era machines that surpassed them like the Nega-Wisp Armor, which does not scale to Modern Super Sonic

, Wyvern (all the Titans really)

Giganto also blitzed Base Sonic....so

, Super Mecha Sonic

which is very weak to even be Super Sonic tier at all, regardless, outlier for Base Classic Knuckles

 

[Omegabronic]

I think it’s kinda dumb to say Eggman is somehow capable of piloting machines and reacting to enemies infinitely faster than his normal speed just because he’s in a cockpit of a super form level machine, when none of said machines have free will.

and what stops him from having a device to empower himself to have that much of reaction speed inside of them? speculations on "how" are useless to prove either side

 

[Fireld]

It's not just Eggman either. The GUN Commander was blitzed by Shadow without his mecha while when he pilots Diablon, he could battle Shadow.

 

[JJSliderman]

and what stops him from having a device to empower himself to have that much of reaction speed inside of them? speculations on "how" are useless to prove either side

You’d kinda have to prove that sort of device exists for every single machine he uses, despite the fact he can keep up with base form characters without that device, including Sonic who outran bloodlusted Wyvern.

It's not just Eggman either. The GUN Commander was blitzed by Shadow without his mecha while when he pilots Diablon, he could battle Shadow.

GUN Commander is kinda fodder as a human so this doesn’t matter that much.

which blitzed Sonic

Not really, it just overpowered him, there’s never a point in the game TE blitzes him.

Which all faced Super Sonic and not regular Sonic, only relevant for modern era machines that surpassed them like the Nega-Wisp Armor, which does not scale to Modern Super Sonic

Yeah, Eggman is still piloting them with his base form level reactions and still piloting them successfully.

Giganto also blitzed Base Sonic....so

Yeah, and then Sonic outruns bloodlusted Wyvern, outruns Knight, and he landed several hits on Giganto before Giganto retaliated.

which is very weak to even be Super Sonic tier at all, regardless, outlier for Base Classic Knuckles

I just dislike using outlier but okay.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I dislike using the term "outlier" super liberally too, but stuff like Base Classic Knuckles being Super Sonic tier is the definition of an outlier

 

[Omegabronic]

You’d kinda have to prove that sort of device exists for every single machine he uses, despite the fact he can keep up with base form characters without that device

Speculations on "how" are useless to prove either side

don't ignore the entire point, the "how" he did it is never said, you can't prove that it is of pure speed, you can't prove that it is via whatever else, as Fire pointed out, machines making one's reaction speed faster have basis, Eggman being Super Sonic levels of speed is not, drop it

including Sonic who outran bloodlusted Wyvern.

stop mixing unrelated moments please, this proves nothing on the earlier point at all

GUN Commander is kinda fodder as a human so this doesn’t matter that much.

"Machine being piloted can make a fodder who was blitzed fight on par with the char who blitzed him", nah bro it doesn't matter

see the problem?

Not really, it just overpowered him, there’s never a point in the game TE blitzes him.

in the final blow where he is overpowered he is also blitzed, he litterally can't react as TE attacks him, with Eggman even saying he was holding back with the TE

Yeah, Eggman is still piloting them with his base form level reactions and still piloting them successfully.

which you would need to prove of course, given the Diablon example, that will be hard, tell me when you find evidence of such

Yeah, and then Sonic outruns bloodlusted Wyvern, outruns Knight

two outliers contradicted by the Giganto's encounter

and he landed several hits on Giganto before Giganto retaliated.

you mean when it didn't do anything to retaliate? of course you need to prove that it is by speed of course, you know you have to prove your positive points right?

I just dislike using outlier but okay.

it is what they are, you not liking it will not change that

 

[JJSliderman]

don't ignore the entire point, the "how" he did it is never said, you can't prove that it is of pure speed, you can't prove that it is via whatever else, as Fire pointed out, machines making one's reaction speed faster have basis, Eggman being Super Sonic levels of speed is not, drop it

I mean if we go back to the klepto mobile example, it was able to keep up with super sonic despite being a busted up Eggmobile that was fighting base Sonic prior, and the only thing Eggman did was add arms he cobbled together in 5 minutes. So we have a machine that is effectively fighting both base and super form level entities, base Eggman already scales in speed without machines to base form stuff, his machine when barely anything changed about it (and visibly nothing changed in terms of speed) kept up with super form level stuff, I think there’s a scaling chain there.

stop mixing unrelated moments please, this proves nothing on the earlier point at all

These points are meant to coalesce together into the general idea of base forms downscaling super form speed so, I think they are relevant.

in the final blow where he is overpowered he is also blitzed, he litterally can't react as TE attacks him, with Eggman even saying he was holding back with the TE

Yet he also outruns multiple energy shots from Time Eater in that same cutscene, and he was already in the air and homing attacking when TE hit him, so it’s not really a blitz.

which you would need to prove of course, given the Diablon example, that will be hard, tell me when you find evidence of such

Diablon is one instance in the adventure era, it doesn’t contradict the idea that Eggman got faster as the eras progressed (hell he didn’t do any kind of blitzing at all in his base form prior to the modern era so that’s proof he got faster). Moreover, if he just had this sort of device available to reach super sonic speed, and was capable of sticking it in machines that didn’t even have magic power sources amping them like the super egg robot, why does he not just use them in every machine he has and blitz Sonic all the time? We even see that his eggmobile can briefly outpace Super Sonic in Unleashed and he can pilot the Eggmobile to avoid hazards, and yet base Sonic with no enhancements also keeps up with Eggmobile.

two outliers contradicted by the Giganto's encounter

I think you’re using the term outlier wrong, isn’t the Giganto instance the outlier if it’s 2 vs 1.

you mean when it didn't do anything to retaliate? of course you need to prove that it is by speed of course, you know you have to prove your positive points right?

I can tell it’s via speed because he also outspeeds other Titans throughout the game, and in this case it’s very clearly with speed because you’re thrown into segments where you’re required to outrun the Titan to proceed.

it is what they are, you not liking it will not change that

Sure, I guess in IDW the speed gap is more highlighted, but even then base Sonic still managed to somewhat keep up with super Metal (albeit barely), which like…I was talking about downscaling anyway.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Just a reminder to keep things below a boil, some peeps tend to get too... passionate. Last thing we want is any animosity, amirite?

Really most sonic writers never think of the most basic forms of powerscaling to the point of sometimes defying basic common sense. For example as much as I love scrapnik island it makes no sense for mecha sonic to be on par with sonic. Even if you believe sonic hasn't gotten stronger over the years he's at least more skilled and versatile while mecha sonic decayed for god knows how long after losing to a younger sonic. Therefore if sonic beat him before he should beat him again just easier this time.

A million times this. That comment Tails makes of Mecha still being nearly as fast as Sonic is a perfect example of writers disregarding over a dozen instances of Sonic being stated as having gotten faster. I feel like the "injured ankle" thing Sonic went through was a mild way to placate such a thing.

Honestly I see JJ's stance, but I also see Omega/Clover's stance. And no offense to you guys (it's more of a SEGA problem) but this issue always peeks its head every few months lolol.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Sonic power scaling inherently defies basic common sense

Seems about right for a series that just forgot it blew up half the moon from one game to another

 

[Omegabronic]

I mean if we go back to the klepto mobile example, it was able to keep up with super sonic despite being a busted up Eggmobile that was fighting base Sonic prior, and the only thing Eggman did was add arms he cobbled together in 5 minutes.

how do you know this? what is the evidence for such affirmation

So we have a machine that is effectively fighting both base and super form level entities

which one is the upgraded version of the Eggmobile, the other is not

base Eggman already scales in speed without machines to base form stuff

which doesn't matter here, as it doesn't prove anything

, his machine when barely anything changed about it (and visibly nothing changed in terms of speed)

......the fact that it is keeping up with Super Forms level foes shows a change in speed

kept up with super form level stuff, I think there’s a scaling chain there.

the Kleptomobile is Eggman altering his Eggmobile with....something, we have no details of its creation, we don't know HOW he made it, the point you are arguing also would make Base Chars scale in power which.....no, all in all we have nothing in detail about the Kleptomobile for anything scaling wise for base forms

These points are meant to coalesce together into the general idea of base forms downscaling super form speed so, I think they are relevant.

no because Wivern has nothing to do with any machine Eggman built, and you also ignore all the times Super Forms level foes completely blitzed base forms(Time Eater, Giganto, Super Neo Metal, etc) so no

Yet he also outruns multiple energy shots from Time Eater in that same cutscene

in the final blow where he is overpowered he is also blitzed, he litterally can't react as TE attacks him, with Eggman even saying he was holding back with the TE

doesn't matter, Eggman explained why

, and he was already in the air and homing attacking when TE hit him, so it’s not really a blitz.

nope, he was on the ground

Diablon is one instance in the adventure era, it doesn’t contradict the idea that Eggman got faster as the eras progressed (hell he didn’t do any kind of blitzing at all in his base form prior to the modern era so that’s proof he got faster).

you ignored the entire point of "machine inside = boost in speed for the one inside" that is a thing that happened in the series, by proxy it happens again to explain Eggman final bosses machines, meanwhile Eggman himself being Super Form level in speed is supported by nothing really

Moreover, if he just had this sort of device available to reach super sonic speed

an example i gave, we don't know HOW, that is the point

We even see that his eggmobile can briefly outpace Super Sonic in Unleashed

no, Sonic cassually destroying his ship is no proof of scaling, you are reaching hard now

and he can pilot the Eggmobile to avoid hazards

congrats for him? "he can avoid stuff while piloting it" so what?

I think you’re using the term outlier wrong, isn’t the Giganto instance the outlier if it’s 2 vs 1.

considering all the other examples that outpaced those 2 instances i would say you are

I can tell it’s via speed because he also outspeeds other Titans throughout the game

two situations not related to the scene in questions does not provide your theory about it, come on hear yourself, you are saying Base Sonic is so fast that Giganto can't react to him at all even after multiple attacks? when Giganto blitz imediatly afterwards? when Giganto can keep up with Super Sonic no problem? Base Sonic >>>> Super Sonic??????

and in this case it’s very clearly with speed because you’re thrown into segments where you’re required to outrun the Titan to proceed.

which are contradicted by many situations that i already listed

Sure, I guess in IDW the speed gap is more highlighted, but even then base Sonic still managed to somewhat keep up with super Metal (albeit barely)

he didn't, at all, Metal was joking with them and they couldn't react to him at all, unless when he was joking with them to allow it such

, which like…I was talking about downscaling anyway.

which doesn't work as they don't scale to him in any capacity whatsoever