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Pretty sure baseline Hyper is currently accepted as superior to peak Super. That's why it doesn't have a variable tier. Besides, Super Sonic had no narrative reason to be at max power here.
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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers
- Thread starter Maverick_Zero_X
- Start date
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If the Dark Gaia CRT passes that’s another possible instance of downscaling to super forms.
Ghengiroo115
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Yeah, I was saying that Hyper’s Low 1-C rating is only vaguely above Super’s. Theoretically baseline Hyper could be only a bit stronger than peak Super.
I mean I feel like Eggman having access to an incredibly powerful artifact would be enough, especially since Sonic’s gone full-power against stuff that (to his limited knowledge at the time) weren’t as high stakes like the first three Titans.
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Final Weapon scaling ABOVE peak Super Sonic would also make it relative or superior to Metal Overlord and Solaris, which also contradicts the narrative. Is there even any evidence that Final Weapon was powered by the Master Emerald and not just stealing it?
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Hyper Sonic is dubiously canon and you can fight Final Weapon as either Super Sonic or Hyper Sonic. You can't have both
Ghengiroo115
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Wait, how so? From what I remember all they say is that the Chaos Emeralds alone aren’t enough to beat Overlord and Solaris, but I don’t see how the Final Weapon being relative to them contradicts anything. If there’s something I’m missing though then yeah that would be an issue.
It can go either way, but if you did go for the 6D scaling then the only logical assumption would be that the Master Emerald powers it.
Ghengiroo115
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Yeah true, though I was under the (I guess wrong?) assumption that the wiki considered it canon.
Although if Hyper isn’t canon, it makes me wonder what’s up with the cracked and dormant Super Emeralds in Mania.
Super and Hyper Sonic both have Invulnerability so the fight should work using either one.
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As accepted in the scaling blog, the difference in power between Super Forms and Base Forms remains the same as the latter grow in power, scalling to past super forms aside, any scaling to present day super forms is a no
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and Chaos Energy beings on the level of a super form can ignore said durability, as seen by the likes of Eggsalamander and Solaris, so if Final Weapon is powered by the Chaos Energy of the master emerald it would have one shot easily Super Sonic without any difficulty at all, and would tank all of his attacks with no problem as well......see the problem?
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The difference would still be likely thousands of times given that the eye takes far less to damage than the main body (or maybe the eyes are just low 2-C)
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and the difference btween Super Forms and Base forms is infinities apart, "thousands" is not even close to being enough
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You keep saying that Super Forms grow in response to Base Forms. You know I have my opinions on this, but that aside, where in the blog is this stated?
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"As shown in Sonic Frontiers, a Super Form grows alongside the user, with every increase in power and speed the base for receives being proportionally added to the Super Form as well"
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Which blog is this...?
I also tested this and it's not even true, at least not for speed, and while it applies for power in-game that could very easily just be a game mechanic lol
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the powerscalling blog linked in the blog sections of the verse page....?
also shown by how Super Sonic can harm and keep up with The End(cannonically the strongest vilain as of now) with only 1 ally when against Solaris he needed 3, more proof even in how Dark Gaia, a vilain Super Sonic struggled to defeat, only has severe downscaling from The End, which Sonic comparatively had less struggle than Dark Gaia, it is consistent, Frontiers does but confirm what we have always saw
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We accept Sonic being 4x stronger at the end of Frontiers compared to the beginning of it based on in-game damage numbers. Doesn't mean it doesn't suck lol
Or it's just... more power from the Chaos Emeralds lol, they explicitly vary in power
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considering that all 3 are the Emeralds at their "full power", thus they don't have more to give than that, and the other situation like Metal Overlord where even at full power and with allies as strong as him Sonic couldn't harm Metal at all without combining powers with his allies for a mega charged attack, while The End, who is superior, can be harmed by him and Supreme normally with a significant less charge time.......yeah, it is pretty blatant that he grew in power in Super
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Is it actually ever stated these are the Emeralds "at their full power" in these instances?
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From the context which they happened, regardless, the Metal overlord example covers the point no matter what due to the charge time point, so
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You didn't answer my question
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No super form downscaling, please.
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Okay but to be honest, they should downscale in speed, I think there’s too many instances.
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There isn't
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Time Eater, literally every single Eggman super form tier invention he pilots, Wyvern (all the Titans really), Super Mecha Sonic
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No
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I think it’s kinda dumb to say Eggman is somehow capable of piloting machines and reacting to enemies infinitely faster than his normal speed just because he’s in a cockpit of a super form level machine, when none of said machines have free will.
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K
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True but it's also dumb that the klepto mobile can keep up with super sonic when the phantom egg lost to sonic in base. Despite it having the phantom ruby built into it unlike the klepto mobile.
Really most sonic writers never think of the most basic forms of powerscaling to the point of sometimes defying basic common sense.
For example as much as I love scrapnik island it makes no sense for mecha sonic to be on par with sonic. Even if you believe sonic hasn't gotten stronger over the years he's at least more skilled and versatile while mecha sonic decayed for god knows how long after losing to a younger sonic. Therefore if sonic beat him before he should beat him again just easier this time.
There's an easy fix for this too but that's not the point. Rather it's that on rare occasions like all of forces sonic is as inconsistent as cw flash and there's very little we can do about it.
Really most sonic writers never think of the most basic forms of powerscaling to the point of sometimes defying basic common sense.
For example as much as I love scrapnik island it makes no sense for mecha sonic to be on par with sonic. Even if you believe sonic hasn't gotten stronger over the years he's at least more skilled and versatile while mecha sonic decayed for god knows how long after losing to a younger sonic. Therefore if sonic beat him before he should beat him again just easier this time.
There's an easy fix for this too but that's not the point. Rather it's that on rare occasions like all of forces sonic is as inconsistent as cw flash and there's very little we can do about it.
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which blitzed Sonic
Which all faced Super Sonic and not regular Sonic, only relevant for modern era machines that surpassed them like the Nega-Wisp Armor, which does not scale to Modern Super Sonic
Giganto also blitzed Base Sonic....so
which is very weak to even be Super Sonic tier at all, regardless, outlier for Base Classic Knuckles
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and what stops him from having a device to empower himself to have that much of reaction speed inside of them? speculations on "how" are useless to prove either side
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You’d kinda have to prove that sort of device exists for every single machine he uses, despite the fact he can keep up with base form characters without that device, including Sonic who outran bloodlusted Wyvern.
GUN Commander is kinda fodder as a human so this doesn’t matter that much.
Not really, it just overpowered him, there’s never a point in the game TE blitzes him.
Yeah, Eggman is still piloting them with his base form level reactions and still piloting them successfully.
Yeah, and then Sonic outruns bloodlusted Wyvern, outruns Knight, and he landed several hits on Giganto before Giganto retaliated.
I just dislike using outlier but okay.
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I dislike using the term "outlier" super liberally too, but stuff like Base Classic Knuckles being Super Sonic tier is the definition of an outlier
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don't ignore the entire point, the "how" he did it is never said, you can't prove that it is of pure speed, you can't prove that it is via whatever else, as Fire pointed out, machines making one's reaction speed faster have basis, Eggman being Super Sonic levels of speed is not, drop it
stop mixing unrelated moments please, this proves nothing on the earlier point at all
"Machine being piloted can make a fodder who was blitzed fight on par with the char who blitzed him", nah bro it doesn't matter
see the problem?
in the final blow where he is overpowered he is also blitzed, he litterally can't react as TE attacks him, with Eggman even saying he was holding back with the TE
which you would need to prove of course, given the Diablon example, that will be hard, tell me when you find evidence of such
two outliers contradicted by the Giganto's encounter
you mean when it didn't do anything to retaliate? of course you need to prove that it is by speed of course, you know you have to prove your positive points right?
it is what they are, you not liking it will not change that
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I mean if we go back to the klepto mobile example, it was able to keep up with super sonic despite being a busted up Eggmobile that was fighting base Sonic prior, and the only thing Eggman did was add arms he cobbled together in 5 minutes. So we have a machine that is effectively fighting both base and super form level entities, base Eggman already scales in speed without machines to base form stuff, his machine when barely anything changed about it (and visibly nothing changed in terms of speed) kept up with super form level stuff, I think there’s a scaling chain there.
These points are meant to coalesce together into the general idea of base forms downscaling super form speed so, I think they are relevant.
Yet he also outruns multiple energy shots from Time Eater in that same cutscene, and he was already in the air and homing attacking when TE hit him, so it’s not really a blitz.
Diablon is one instance in the adventure era, it doesn’t contradict the idea that Eggman got faster as the eras progressed (hell he didn’t do any kind of blitzing at all in his base form prior to the modern era so that’s proof he got faster). Moreover, if he just had this sort of device available to reach super sonic speed, and was capable of sticking it in machines that didn’t even have magic power sources amping them like the super egg robot, why does he not just use them in every machine he has and blitz Sonic all the time? We even see that his eggmobile can briefly outpace Super Sonic in Unleashed and he can pilot the Eggmobile to avoid hazards, and yet base Sonic with no enhancements also keeps up with Eggmobile.
I think you’re using the term outlier wrong, isn’t the Giganto instance the outlier if it’s 2 vs 1.
I can tell it’s via speed because he also outspeeds other Titans throughout the game, and in this case it’s very clearly with speed because you’re thrown into segments where you’re required to outrun the Titan to proceed.
Sure, I guess in IDW the speed gap is more highlighted, but even then base Sonic still managed to somewhat keep up with super Metal (albeit barely), which like…I was talking about downscaling anyway.
ShakeResounding
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Just a reminder to keep things below a boil, some peeps tend to get too... passionate. Last thing we want is any animosity, amirite?
Honestly I see JJ's stance, but I also see Omega/Clover's stance. And no offense to you guys (it's more of a SEGA problem) but this issue always peeks its head every few months lolol.
A million times this. That comment Tails makes of Mecha still being nearly as fast as Sonic is a perfect example of writers disregarding over a dozen instances of Sonic being stated as having gotten faster. I feel like the "injured ankle" thing Sonic went through was a mild way to placate such a thing.
Honestly I see JJ's stance, but I also see Omega/Clover's stance. And no offense to you guys (it's more of a SEGA problem) but this issue always peeks its head every few months lolol.
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Sonic power scaling inherently defies basic common sense
Seems about right for a series that just forgot it blew up half the moon from one game to another
Seems about right for a series that just forgot it blew up half the moon from one game to another
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