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From where I’m standing they almost never suggest Sonic needs to use his super form specifically to get fast enough. It is always a matter of strength.
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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers
- Thread starter Maverick_Zero_X
- Start date
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Agree to disagree ig
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For baseline Super Sonic, I honestly think that should be true. In Frontiers, Super Sonic is not at his baseline power at all though (made obvious by Starfall Super Sonic being somewhat comparable to regular Super Sonic), so I agree that Sonic's base speed shouldn't scale to his Super form's showings within that game (despite the consistant speed scaling to the Titans being displayed all throughout the game)
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Starfall is like a completely separate form that has nothing to do with the other 3 Titans base Sonic actually keeps up with.
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And yet, despite being canonically superior to the best Super Sonic can offer, both forms could at least SOMEWHAT contend with The End. Super Sonic was at his max power and speed in Frontiers. Base Sonic can't scale to his own peak Super form of the same game. Neither in speed or power. Unless you want to claim Super forms don't amp speed at all, which is false
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I look at the showings in Frontiers and they kind of contradict the idea that Super Sonic is immeasurably faster than base idk what to say.
If it only happened once then sure, but it’s for every Titan, and is even required for the game to progress.
If it only happened once then sure, but it’s for every Titan, and is even required for the game to progress.
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I know man. I get what you're saying. It is very consistant throughout the story. It just contradicts the lore of the Chaos Emeralds established in every other game and results in impossible circular scaling as a result. Baseline Super Sonic may not be much faster than his base, but peak Super Sonic has to be. In Frontiers, Super Sonic is at his peak.
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I just wish sonic has a little more consistency with it's powerscaling system, I do believe Ian does want to be lower significantly because it would be easier to manage, not mainly out of his own opinion as to what level sonic would be. (since multiple games contradict his views on it, even some of the more modern ones.)
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Why does it “have” to be that way though? Legit, where is it stated the chaos emeralds are providing immeasurable speed boosts? Them being massive ridiculous strength amps is substantiated multiple times by the story, but speed is almost never emphasized when talking about their boosts.
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If I were to reboot the Sonic series and make my own power scaling for it, I would keep the base form characters consistantly below planet level and below light speed (with only the likes of Sonic and Shadow being able to push themselves beyond light speed occasionally). Super forms would vary between large planet level/FTL+ and multiversal+/Immeasurable. But then the transformations beyond that (like Hyper Sonic) would go DEEP into tier 1 stuff with Irrelevant speed, because **** it.
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It may not be consistant, but we do know they boost speed to an extent, even at a baseline level
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I know they boost speed, I just think for speed there’s more of an arg for downscaling or being relative since being higher into immeasurable is a thing
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1 Emerald alone boosted Metal Sonic to be so fast that he broke his limits during the 2021 calendar story, completely outclassing Sonic, even when before he couldn't do it even when removing any an all resources in himself to focus completely on speed, even then, the boost from a single emerald was beyond what both him and Sonic could expect
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Let's please drop all this downscaling talk, okay?
Changing topics, what's one wish for Shadow Gens you guys have?
Changing topics, what's one wish for Shadow Gens you guys have?
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It is a outlier
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Gonna be honest, that story is kinda weird when Metal has channeled the power of multiple emeralds with no negative side effects before and characters could keep up with him during Mania Adventures.
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"Turned off all resources, even vital ones, to focus on speed"
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But also that’s a 2021 story and Sonic was much faster in Frontiers, don’t think it debunks the idea.
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Doesn't matter, 2 Emerald alone raises speed significantly
How does that matter?
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It’s an unquantifiable speed boost, it doesn’t debunk the idea of base Sonic downscaling (because he very clearly does in recent games)
Because Sonic being unable to keep up with 2 Chaos Emerald users a year ago doesn’t mean it’s the same for all time, we have examples of Sonic increasing his stats by seemingly millions of times in 5 minutes.
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No lol
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it a boost higher than metal Sonic literally all he can to go faster, aka faster than the likes of his boost and spin dash, Sonic litterally lost Metal from sight for a moment when he used it, even when he was far ahead prior, there is no downscaling to be had here at all
he doesn't, Giganto blitzed him, and the other 2 are only 2 situations, 2 vs like, 10 where Base Chars where blitzed by a super form level oponent, you have a canonical story where blitzing, even if momentarily, happened with 1 emerald only, stop being stubborn
you do know that the boost stays the same as they get stronger and faster right?.......that is kind of the whole point
in which the boost he got from the emerald would still be as high as they were before as they were prior
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Yeah, the argument is that super sonic is immeasurably faster, just being a couple times faster is not enough for me to say that downscaling isn’t applicable.
Giganto doesn’t blitz him and you are definitely using the term “blitz” incorrectly. It is absolutely the outlier in the context of frontiers, and you are way exaggerating with “10” instances of base being blitzed. At most, it’s like 3, and even then it’s more like 2 and a half because they can barely keep up with Super Neo. And one of those instances was Giant Zavok, who is far slower and more lethargic than normal.
They scale to the power granted by 7 Emeralds since Sonic Battle so I doubt they can just keep stacking these boosts infinitely by getting stronger in their base forms. Either they scale to the Emeralds or they don’t.
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prove your affirmation, the gap displayed in that race is not a downscalable on
do we have to have this talk again? Sonic has so much mobility in the air with several skills that if he could have dodged, he would have, giganto raises his hand to grab him and Sonic has no reaction to it at all, it is a blitz, no matter how hard you try to deny it
good thing that Sonic as a franchise is far more than 1 singular game
they can't, as i said, he wasn't serious at all and blitzed both of them when he got tired of playing, with Sonic unable to follow him to stop Knuckles, with him being unable to be perceived and reacted at all even when he casually flew to them
prove this, nothing ever suggests this at all
except that they clearly do seem his performance against The End in comparison to Metal Overlord, or the clear cut showings that "Base Form stronger = Super Form stronger by the same amount"
not the rules
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The race was coming down to just a distance of a few hundred meters, and all that’s said is that Metal overtook Sonic at an “unbelievable speed”. There is nothing saying Sonic got blitzed or that he lost sight of Metal, aside from “Sonic doesn’t understand what is happening”, which can mean multiple things.
Yeah cool, Giganto grabs Sonic once. Guess what, people can get hit by other people if they’re comparable speed. I guess if a boxer gets hit one time by another boxer they get blitzed!
And this just happens to be one of the most recent installments, in a franchise where the main character is constantly improving.
They literally have multiple spin dash clashes and Sonic visibly dodged Super Metal “in” the panel.
During the Zavok fight in LW he can barely keep up with Sonic when the former goes giant and his movements in general are much slower to climb up the shaft compared to his CQC with Sonic in small form. His fireballs are also portrayed as moving very slow in giant form.
The Emeralds are only treated as strength multipliers on the wiki rn anyway so idk what this has to do with speed (which is what I was arguing about?)
The Emeralds scaling above power cores as a multiplier themselves is smthn that isn’t even said by the series and is just because they are Emeralds and are powerful.
MysticMania
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I feel they have solid points, and someone should be allowed to express how they feel on scaling, regardless.
Even if I don't agree with what is expressed entirely, myself, I do appreciate you sharing this, JJ. Thank you.
Even if I don't agree with what is expressed entirely, myself, I do appreciate you sharing this, JJ. Thank you.
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he literally lost sight of him for a moment, being above his Boost and Spin Dash is factual tho, which are blitz amps
if said boxer is unable to react to the other boxer at all even with 4x greater reaction speed, then yeah, he would have been blitzed
you not believing the argument shouldn't mean for you to ignore it "The boost given stays the same as they grow" ignore this because you simply doesn't believe it and we can't have a conversation here
what part of "Neo Metal was joking with them" did you not get? i already covered this, in that same panel he casually blitzs knuckles and Sonic is unable to react to it at all, all while he mocks them both at how easy it is, he can't keep up with Neo there, Neo is simply playing with them
show this?
so all you have is gameplay mechanics? IDW Shows otherwise anyway
they aren't, Hypermode(Emerald buff) literally amplifies speed, that was the entire point of the recent 5-A downgrade
it is directly said and compared with Fake Emeralds, which are said to be the same as normal emeralds but much inferior
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Using Super Neo Metal as any form of an attempt at downscaling is just funny with how badly he blitzes Sonic and Knuckles. Like, you literally have to ignore a good chunk of the fight just to push for that
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A Mephiles boss fight
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He’s faster but Sonic still dodges or matches his spindash at a couple points.
They straight up never say he lost sight of Metal, you’re just twisting the words.
Explain how Giganto doesn’t blitz Sonic when Sonic is running up his back to get to the Chaos Emerald, then.
The boost to strength stays the same, nothing confirmed about the speed boost.
They were caught off guard, in other panels they’re shown being able to react to some degree.
The panel right before the one where Knuckles is running up the altar steps.
It’s just logic that becoming bigger makes you a more lethargic being, due to needing to move more mass around to attack.
And the speed amp is unquantifiable and not even that massive considering you can keep up with Hypermode characters regardless, just not as easily.
Yeah okay, that was my bad.
Still, I’m focusing on speed and not strength, so I’m not really that interested in discussing.
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Nah, really not entertaining this further. You pretty much have to pick and choose what to ignore to push for this
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I choose to consider this is a pre-Frontiers story and thus doesn’t contradict the idea that Sonic got fast enough to keep up with immeasurable characters because that’s what the game is showing me on multiple occasions.
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That's not even relevant. Just within this fight alone, I don't see how you can arrive at the conclusion that Sonic should downscale from someone that blitzed him.
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Because Metal is not always blitzing him and Sonic can do things like dodge his spindash and counter it at several points
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are you going to show this or...?
Also you ignored how casual Super Metal was, there nothing to say that Sonic downscales when he clearly wasn't even trying against Sonic to begin with, he was humoring, at best
that happens, i won't engage in a back forth of "it did, no it didn't, it did....." any longer
How can he blitz someone he is not trying to catch? he isn't after nor paying attention to Sonic at all, he IGNORES Sonic if he doesn't do anything to climb him even
This isn't a situation where Giganto can't blitz Sonic, but one where he doesn't even try to catch him in the first place
Universal Energy System, unless you have anything that would imply that the boost given by the same energy works differently for some arbitrary reason, this is nothing you coming up with stuff to fit your narrative
Sonic was literally clashing against him in the same page, wdym "he was caught off guard"?
saying and not showing doesn't help you, i checked, there isn't any place where they legitimate reacted to him, not one where he wasn't very clearly joking around with them and not trying at all
idk why you keep ignoring the "HE WASN'T SERIOUS AND WAS PURELY JOKING ARROUND" point........
regardless, in that same page he blitzes both Sonic and Knuckles at the same time effortlessly, mocking them about how easy it was.............all you have 1 out of context panel, that's all you have
you ignored the IDW showing that it doesn't happen that to Zavok point
in gameplay? yes, in lore? no idea, not provable by fighters alone, going from the canonical depiction of an Emerald amping someone tho? yeah it isn't reactable
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I think this discussion is not worth entertaining any longer. It's clear that neither side will be convinced, no matter what
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