Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[MysticMania]

I do like keeping my expectations low, in life, but never in ill will against other people. Unless if someone sucks as a person, in which I will gladly bare negativity towards them mentally, but a group of people having different opinions of powerscaling than me is far, far away from being a group of bad people.

I hope the episode was fun to work on, for everyone involved.

 

[Theuser789]

I agree with Dust here, I think you're being waaaay too negative. I mean, if you want proof on how opinions change, compare Ultraguy Pre-Sonic V Wally, Sonic V Wally, and Post-Sonic V Wally (Trunks V Silver).

He goes from not buying any cosmic ends, to buying a few, to wholeheartedly arguing the high ends to say it stomps DBH's cosmology by giving Archie Silver a form he used one time and didn't even demonstrate anything beyond his game counterpart in. Genuinely, I think you just need to wait. I mean, they already said outright that Bowser V Eggman had to get pushed back a whole year due to the intensity of production/research and that it will be one of the longest in Death Battle history. The current longest episode? 33 Minutes (Goku V Superman 1).

Not to mention, Episode 100 was quite literally years ago. Their approach to titles has drastically changed in that time. S3 DB isn't comparable to S7 Death Battle, and S7 Death Battle isn't comparable to S11. Their research, animations, editing, storytelling, etc. level up considerably every year. Holding onto bad research then is worth practically nothing, because that isn't at all a valid metric to comparable to their "bad research" now. These were the same guys who used to consider Buu below SoL who now consider Buu an absurdly high value into MFTL. They change, adapt, and evolve. So withhold judgement to see where they've evolved.

If they fail spectucularly, THEN you can rant. The proof is in the pudding. But currently you're down in the dumps about the equivalent of a hypothetical, backwards, all evidence pointing opposite to being the case, Schrodinger's Cat that may never even come to be.

We shall see who will win Sunday. Unwavering hope or the crushing despair.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

"Close match" when the researchers basically claim Bowser can solo Eggman's army, can counter everything he does and Eggman's isn't that smart because the character that is show to be wrong said so.

It will be close... in the stats... it's merely just "Close but clear cut" cause le hax... trust the plan...

 

[Fireld]

We will have a close match... with Bowser winning via army and hax.... Trust the plan...

Somehow I have more faith in this than there ever being a good Lupin DB or just a Lupin DB at all tbw.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Somehow I have more faith in this than there ever being a good Lupin DB or just a Lupin DB at all tbw.

Lupin vs Sly will happen with a Lupin SWEEP. Trust the plan....

 

[Theuser789]

It will be close... in the stats... it's merely just "Close but clear cut" cause le hax... trust the plan...

Bowser the HAXLORD of the thousand plans wins again!

 

[Issen_Mk_III]

Research/verdict aside,I have a feeling that the actual fight is gonna be DB's Magnum Opus.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Bowser the HAXLORD of the thousand plans wins again!

Sosuke Bowzien... I kneel before the CHAD...

 

[Fireld]

Lupin vs Sly will happen with a Lupin SWEEP. Trust the plan....

We can only hope...

 

[Dust_Collector]

Lupin vs Sly will happen with a Lupin SWEEP. Trust the plan....

Lupin the second that Sly jumps and hits the circle button

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Lupin the second that Sly jumps and hits the circle button

Sly getting HIT with that FTL Lupin.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Sly getting HIT with that FTL Lupin.

Sly pulling out the laser and sunlight dodging feats from his first game and using time stop counters that fraud Lupin

 

[Dust_Collector]

Hold on this ain't the DB discussion thread

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I do like keeping my expectations low, in life, but never in ill will against other people. Unless if someone sucks as a person, in which I will gladly bare negativity towards them mentally, but a group of people having different opinions of powerscaling than me is far, far away from being a group of bad people.

I hope the episode was fun to work on, for everyone involved.

I have nothing but good will towards everyone in Death Battle's team. The research team is the only exception. With the fact that they're getting paid for a job so many of us do for free, you'd think they would be more invested in answering the questions of the people who make them their money in the first place, as well as showing off the extent of their research after an episode. Even as part of the 5% who agrees with the outcome of Omnidock, I still think the way the researchers dodged questions after it was pathetic.

 

[JJSliderman]

I don’t wanna go that far but, yes I do miss getting to see their thought process for some of these verdicts.

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

By the way, what happens with Speed simulator?is now that thing canon?

Apparently so
here is the sandbox for additions from that game (just needs more references and links)

 

[Angelzewolf]

You know. Part of me is genuinely interested in how Death Battle would make Bowser win. I honestly can't see Bowser pulling a W as I just find Eggman's arsenal superior in almost every way. I think Sage alone is already a huge asset that borderline forces the tide in Eggman's favor, nevermind other members of the army...And before they argue King Boo can possess and manipulate Sage

I'm like... 90% confident Bowsy is gonna pull the W even though my heart is saying Eggman, so outside of the battle itself, I'm actually most interested to see the reasoning they use.

 

[Theuser789]

You know. Part of me is genuinely interested in how Death Battle would make Bowser win. I honestly can't see Bowser pulling a W as I just find Eggman's arsenal superior in almost every way. I think Sage alone is already a huge asset that borderline forces the tide in Eggman's favor, nevermind other members of the army...And before they argue King Boo can possess and manipulate Sage

I'm like... 90% confident Bowsy is gonna pull the W even though my heart is saying Eggman, so outside of the battle itself, I'm actually most interested to see the reasoning they use.

Bowser's transmutation can take down 95% of Eggman's forces. Boo's can make Bowser's army impossible to hit. Bowser is a better reality warper. Wonder Flower > Phantom Ruby. Jr or Kamek can BFR Sage. There you go, there's your reasoning.

 

[Oreo166]

Not even just that. I rewatched the video cause someone brought up something interesting. The Calc they did to claim Mario was 12× stronger... was literally directed at Base Sonic. They didn't bother bringing up the Super or Hyper Sonic amp. So, Mario was essentially just... fighting Base Sonic with a Hyper coating—

Also, the whole SPD thing…

 

[Snek]

Also, the whole SPD thing…

Assuming SPD means METRIC METERS!!! A distance measurement.

 

[JJSliderman]

You know. Part of me is genuinely interested in how Death Battle would make Bowser win. I honestly can't see Bowser pulling a W as I just find Eggman's arsenal superior in almost every way. I think Sage alone is already a huge asset that borderline forces the tide in Eggman's favor, nevermind other members of the army...And before they argue King Boo can possess and manipulate Sage

I'm like... 90% confident Bowsy is gonna pull the W even though my heart is saying Eggman, so outside of the battle itself, I'm actually most interested to see the reasoning they use.

There are some advantages or small equalizers Bowser has.

Kamek can turn both Bowser and Eggman’s fodder into more Bowsers (thus turning Metal virus infected beings into new enemies that can also be metallized to stop the virus), Bowser is physically stronger than Eggman since Eggman getting base form scaling in AP is pretty iffy, Eggman having to protect himself from Kamek’s layered transmutation by constantly spreading around chaos energy is a hassle, Eggman seemingly doesn’t resist EE outside of Time Eater so he’s vulnerable to Dream stone, Bowser has args for immeasurable speed via Culex and green comet traveling through space and time physically and Luigi traveling within cutout space that transcends space and time, and 5-D via cutout space and matter splatter galaxy scaling, Bowser is more skilled than Eggman H2H, Iggy can swap stats of Eggman’s army around, etc.

 

[Alexander]

Bowser's transmutation can take down 95% of Eggnan's forces. Boo's can make Bowser's army impossible to hit. Bowser is a better reality warper. Wonder Flower > Phantom Ruby. Jr or Kamek can BFR Sage. There you go, there's your reasoning.

How is wonder flower better?

 

[Angelzewolf]

Bowser's transmutation can take down 95% of Eggnan's forces.

I don't really think their lower end forces will be a huge factor. Kinda predicting it'll mostly just come down to the top dogs. Though I'd love for the final showdown to be God damn motorbug and Goomba.

Boo's can make Bowser's army impossible to hit.

Can they...? I thought people argued that the Sonic cast could hit em? And how reliable would the boos really be considering their weakness to light? Though I'm sure Eggman has a counter to the boos.

Bowser is a better reality warper.

I can see it.

Wonder Flower > Phantom Ruby.

How come? (Never played Wonder)

Jr or Kamek can BFR Sage. There you go, there's your reasoning.

Couldn't she... like... come back...? She can teleport, even between Cyberspace and Starfall, and frankly, I don't see a scenario in which Sage would be open enough to even give them that opportunity as I seriously don't expect her to be in the Frontline.

There are some advantages or small equalizers Bowser has.

Kamek can turn both Bowser and Eggman’s fodder into more Bowsers (thus turning Metal virus infected beings into new enemies that can also be metallized to stop the virus), Bowser is physically stronger than Eggman since Eggman getting base form scaling in AP is pretty iffy,

Fair enough.

Eggman having to protect himself from Kamek’s layered transmutation by constantly spreading around chaos energy is a hassle, Eggman seemingly doesn’t resist EE outside of Time Eater so he’s vulnerable to Dream stone,

Uhh... maybe? Layered transmutation is probably a valid wincon, though for some reason Eggman not resisting EE feels... off. But fair enough.

Bowser has args for immeasurable speed via Culex and green comet traveling through space and time physically and Luigi traveling within cutout space that transcends space and time, and 5-D via cutout space and matter splatter galaxy scaling,

I genuinely do not see them giving either of them that scaling. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, but at most I see MFTL.

Bowser is more skilled than Eggman H2H,

Could work since i'm assuming the finale will be man to turtle instead of machine.

Iggy can swap stats of Eggman’s army around, etc.

I thought someone argued that wouldn't be super effective? Maybe I misread or misremembered. Still, if no one in Eggy's army can resist that then fair enough.

 

[Theuser789]

How is wonder flower better?

It's "real" reality warping unlike the Ruby. That's your reasoning.

 

[Alexander]

It's "real" reality warping unlike the Ruby. That's your reasoning.

But the Ruby also reality warps, the game calls it "illusions"but is all pure game stupidity, illusions can't hurt you, you cannot get trapped in a nothingness place, it is more augmented reality than virtual reality.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

It's "real" reality warping unlike the Ruby. That's your reasoning.

But isn't that sort of irrelevant when the effects of the Phantom Ruby are real? When Infinite created that sun to wipe out the Resistance, it was going to literally do that despite said sun being an illusion.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

There are some advantages or small equalizers Bowser has.

Kamek can turn both Bowser and Eggman’s fodder into more Bowsers (thus turning Metal virus infected beings into new enemies that can also be metallized to stop the virus)

Not really in-character for Kamek to make an army of Bowsers. Him and Bowser do have answers to the metal virus, but Eggman would only ever use it as an absolute last resort.

Bowser is physically stronger than Eggman since Eggman getting base form scaling in AP is pretty iffy,

He's stronger than Eggman by himself with no mechs, sure. Really irrelevant though, especially since Eggman's durabillity does have base form scaling.

Eggman having to protect himself from Kamek’s layered transmutation by constantly spreading around chaos energy is a hassle,

The Wonder Flowers have layered transmutation (that isn't in-character used by Bowser or his son), but since when does Kamek have it too?

Eggman seemingly doesn’t resist EE outside of Time Eater so he’s vulnerable to Dream stone,

Metal Sonic does, and while Eggman does have one method of resisting EE, none of Bowser's troops or Bowser himself can resist the Egg Field, contrary to what many are attempting to argue

Bowser has args for immeasurable speed via Culex and green comet traveling through space and time physically and Luigi traveling within cutout space that transcends space and time,

Again, with the same, or less lee-way, Eggman has 2nd degree immeasurable speed, so if you go with the highest speed ends for both characters, that's an even bigger advantage for Eggman, not Bowser. Finite ends aren't much better since while Mario's universe crossing feats gets the series in the quadrillions c ranges, the similar feats in the Sonic series and its pretty blatant power creep gets it to sextillions c.

and 5-D via cutout space and matter splatter galaxy scaling,

The main argument for Matter Splatter getting the Mario universe to 5D is that it has a hyper-space, something that the Sonic universe also has thanks to the official Sonic Riders web site. Even the argument for cutout space being 6D is identical to the arguments used to get Sonic Rush's Eggmanland to the same scope. In short, if you can't really argue 5D-6D Mario without also arguing 7D-8D Sonic.

Bowser is more skilled than Eggman H2H, Iggy can swap stats of Eggman’s army around, etc.

Sonic undeniably has better skill scaling than Mario with Sonic Battle alone, and this busted abillity being attached to a character as easily killable as Iggy means that it's more likely to benefit Eggman by being used by Metal Sonic than it is to benefit Bowser, especially with Sage's analysis and Eggman's better control over time.

But the Ruby also reality warps, the game calls it "illusions"but is all pure game stupidity, illusions can't hurt you, you cannot get trapped in a nothingness place, it is more augmented reality than virtual reality.

User was sarcastic, and even more bitter than I am.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Oh BTW, is Sage summoning Titans fair game? IDK if they got the resources to show it off in the animation, but I think it should be a fair game thing to do.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Oh BTW, is Sage summoning Titans fair game? IDK if they got the resources to show it off in the animation, but I think it should be a fair game thing to do.

Supreme should be fair at least, given their rules. Idk about the others, but I don't think Sage would want to summon them anyway

 

[RedReaper616]

Oh BTW, is Sage summoning Titans fair game? IDK if they got the resources to show it off in the animation, but I think it should be a fair game thing to do.

They seemingly are allowing her access based on the Death Battle Wiki. I'd also argue she'd at least get Supreme, given she uses his body at the end of the original ending. Also, the only reason she couldn't fully control all the Titans was due to the End's presence in Cyberspace. Once the End left, she had unrestrained access, and thus full access to the 4 Titans. Given at the end of the DLC ending Cyberspace still exists and we know that the Titans can either be revived or have copies (Master King Trials) it does mean she has full unstrained access to the Titans now. This also means the Eggman Empire gets the full benefits of Cyberspace, which allows massive sealing, data retrival, and more for the Eggman Empire to use (as Sage is connected to the Eggnet) and thus allows everyone on the team to fully learn and take advantage of the Koopa Kingdom's weaknesses, flaws, etc. Whether that be physical or mental.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

They seemingly are allowing her access based on the Death Battle Wiki. I'd also argue she'd at least get Supreme, given she uses his body at the end of the original ending. Also, the only reason she couldn't fully control all the Titans was due to the End's presence in Cyberspace. Once the End left, she had unrestrained access, and thus full access to the 4 Titans. Given at the end of the DLC ending Cyberspace still exists and we know that the Titans can either be revived or have copies (Master King Trials) it does mean she has full unstrained access to the Titans now. This also means the Eggman Empire gets the full benefits of Cyberspace, which allows massive sealing, data retrival, and more for the Eggman Empire to use (as Sage is connected to the Eggnet) and thus allows everyone on the team to fully learn and take advantage of the Koopa Kingdom's weaknesses, flaws, etc. Whether that be physical or mental.

Jesus Christ... I'm gonna add that to my summary, is that cool?

 

[RedReaper616]

Cyberspace is a massive boon to the Eggman Empire, simply on the raw fact Sage can essentially seal almost all of the Koopa Kingdom into it and essentially cause a massive game over for most the fighters. Especially since a lot of the ways people think the Koopa Kingdom could survive simply wouldn't work. For example, King Boo's Dimensional Travel likely won’t be effective, because the transport that forces you into Cyberspace isn’t just some ordinary Dimensional Travel anyone can use. It’s travel that specifically defies Laws, causing “logical disparities” and “drags them down to the bottom of causality.” In fact, when Sonic attempts to defy his Cyber Corruption, Sage verbatim doubles down on this and says to do this Sonic must be trying to transcend causality. It’s a bit more unique than the average portal or teleport, (especially since Dimensional Travel in Sonic exists and doesn't do this, see Chaos Control and Warp Rings), so it's likely not something he could evade unless his own DT specifically showed these properties.

Better still, it traps you between dimensions. Hard to travel between them if you’re stuck in their middle. And even if they escape, it shouldn't matter, because that leads into the corruption, which causes mutations and in digitiation limits (certain) abilities. This corruption also traps your soul instead of your physical form. So the Boos would be kept out of the picture regardless if they were trapped in Cyberspace, because they are literally ghosts who would have their souls (ie their literal forms as they are materialied/undead spirits AKA souls).

This also means that a lot of the Koopa Troop simply could not do anything, since most can't travel dimensions regardless.

 

[ShakeResounding]

They probably won't account for Cyber Space imo, but I suppose we'll see

 

[JJSliderman]

Not really in-character for Kamek to make an army of Bowsers. Him and Bowser do have answers to the metal virus, but Eggman would only ever use it as an absolute last resort.

Dude just does it for fun in Jamboree so idk.

The Wonder Flowers have layered transmutation (that isn't in-character used by Bowser or his son), but since when does Kamek have it too?

In Star Rush he can transmute any of the cast into a vase, that sucks up the other players and brings them to that spot.

Metal Sonic does, and while Eggman does have one method of resisting EE, none of Bowser's troops or Bowser himself can resist the Egg Field, contrary to what many are attempting to argue

Still, EE is a thing Bowser can do by just wishing, which is pretty big.

Again, with the same, or less lee-way, Eggman has 2nd degree immeasurable speed, so if you go with the highest speed ends for both characters, that's an even bigger advantage for Eggman, not Bowser. Finite ends aren't much better since while Mario's universe crossing feats gets the series in the quadrillions c ranges, the similar feats in the Sonic series and its pretty blatant power creep gets it to sextillions c.

Do kinda take umbridge with the boost since it seemingly breaks multiplier rules but, oh well. Also ngl, Sonic upscaling triple boost in Frontiers always stuck out as wonky to me but I digress. Think I’d probably stick Sonic in low quint range finitely.

The main argument for Matter Splatter getting the Mario universe to 5D is that it has a hyper-space, something that the Sonic universe also has thanks to the official Sonic Riders web site. Even the argument for cutout space being 6D is identical to the arguments used to get Sonic Rush's Eggmanland to the same scope. In short, if you can't really argue 5D-6D Mario without also arguing 7D-8D Sonic.

True, they probably wouldn’t use dimensional tiering anyway and just stick both at multi+ max (Plato concepts Mario though)

Sonic undeniably has better skill scaling than Mario with Sonic Battle alone, and this busted abillity being attached to a character as easily killable as Iggy means that it's more likely to benefit Eggman by being used by Metal Sonic than it is to benefit Bowser, especially with Sage's analysis and Eggman's better control over time.

It’s hard to say how Eggman’s mechs translate vs Sonic in fighting skill after Battle besides the obvious Metal Sonic.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

(Plato concepts Mario though)

I know you're probably joking about that, but Plato concepts in Mario using Mario's Teaches History has just as much validity to it as using String Theory Soup from Master of Disguise to argue the Mario cosmology is 11-D.

Like I personally think that the Mario cosmology has higher dimensions to them, but those two examples are horse shit in my opinion.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Dude just does it for fun in Jamboree so idk.

You mean the new game that just came out? It won't be accounted for in the Death Battle. Same with Shadow Generations.

I know you're probably joking about that, but Plato concepts in Mario using Mario's Teaches History has just as much validity to it as using String Theory Soup from Master of Disguise to argue the Mario cosmology is 11-D.

Like I personally think that the Mario cosmology has higher dimensions to them, but those two examples are horse shit in my opinion.

Platonic concepts in Mario seem about as valid as Jungian Archetypes in Sonic. Both apparantly allow each verse to reach 1-A, if not higher but they're both absolutely ludicrous to me.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Cyberspace is a massive boon to the Eggman Empire, simply on the raw fact Sage can essentially seal almost all of the Koopa Kingdom into it and essentially cause a massive game over for most the fighters. Especially since a lot of the ways people think the Koopa Kingdom could survive simply wouldn't work. For example, King Boo's Dimensional Travel likely won’t be effective, because the transport that forces you into Cyberspace isn’t just some ordinary Dimensional Travel anyone can use. It’s travel that specifically defies Laws, causing “logical disparities” and “drags them down to the bottom of causality.” In fact, when Sonic attempts to defy his Cyber Corruption, Sage verbatim doubles down on this and says to do this Sonic must be trying to transcend causality. It’s a bit more unique than the average portal or teleport, (especially since Dimensional Travel in Sonic exists and doesn't do this, see Chaos Control and Warp Rings), so it's likely not something he could evade unless his own DT specifically showed these properties.

Better still, it traps you between dimensions. Hard to travel between them if you’re stuck in their middle. And even if they escape, it shouldn't matter, because that leads into the corruption, which causes mutations and in digitiation limits (certain) abilities. This corruption also traps your soul instead of your physical form. So the Boos would be kept out of the picture regardless if they were trapped in Cyberspace, because they are literally ghosts who would have their souls (ie their literal forms as they are materialied/undead spirits AKA souls).

This also means that a lot of the Koopa Troop simply could not do anything, since most can't travel dimensions regardless.

Thank you for this, and the scans as well! This is great

They probably won't account for Cyber Space imo, but I suppose we'll see

Why? Just a presumption because of their faulty research in the past?

 

[ShakeResounding]

Why? Just a presumption because of their faulty research in the past?

Basically, yes.

I think they'll argue it's a non-factor due to others in Bowser's army having BFR as well. So I think they'll argue it cancels out .

Same with Cyber Corruption.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Cyberspace is a massive boon to the Eggman Empire, simply on the raw fact Sage can essentially seal almost all of the Koopa Kingdom into it and essentially cause a massive game over for most the fighters. Especially since a lot of the ways people think the Koopa Kingdom could survive simply wouldn't work. For example, King Boo's Dimensional Travel likely won’t be effective, because the transport that forces you into Cyberspace isn’t just some ordinary Dimensional Travel anyone can use. It’s travel that specifically defies Laws, causing “logical disparities” and “drags them down to the bottom of causality.” In fact, when Sonic attempts to defy his Cyber Corruption, Sage verbatim doubles down on this and says to do this Sonic must be trying to transcend causality. It’s a bit more unique than the average portal or teleport, (especially since Dimensional Travel in Sonic exists and doesn't do this, see Chaos Control and Warp Rings), so it's likely not something he could evade unless his own DT specifically showed these properties.

Better still, it traps you between dimensions. Hard to travel between them if you’re stuck in their middle. And even if they escape, it shouldn't matter, because that leads into the corruption, which causes mutations and in digitiation limits (certain) abilities. This corruption also traps your soul instead of your physical form. So the Boos would be kept out of the picture regardless if they were trapped in Cyberspace, because they are literally ghosts who would have their souls (ie their literal forms as they are materialied/undead spirits AKA souls).

This also means that a lot of the Koopa Troop simply could not do anything, since most can't travel dimensions regardless.

By the way, anyone who enters Cyber Space has their memories integrated into it, right? Shouldn't there be Memory Manipulation on its profile then?

 

[RedReaper616]

By the way, anyone who enters Cyber Space has their memories integrated into it, right? Shouldn't there be Memory Manipulation on its profile then?

Yes. Hence why I stressed how much data it can get from the KK. Also, it’s not just memories. As you know, it’s their hopes, dreams, and souls as well into the form of data. Cyberspace is essentially the ultimate information gathering tool, because it integrates basically everything about them (and what they know) as data for Sage, Eggman, and the entire Eggnet to use.