Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[Alexander]

I mean, whilst technically it is range, within fiction this often translates to power. This is how Tier 2 works (for now). So until then, it's a viable metric.

Hypertimeline is just the easiest way to define it after being codified within fiction. If you wanna call it a Supertimeline instead, sure, whatever, but it's the same thing and Arale operates on that level (at least) so she's still barking up a higher story level than Sonic does with the Arabian Nights (the only form of story resistance he has that I know of).

No, not "Super"or "hyper"or anything like that, just no something timelines, and we have dimensions already, why add hypertimelines?

 

[RedReaper616]

No, not "Super"or "hyper"or anything like that, just no something timelines, and we have dimensions already, why add hypertimelines?

I don't really understand this complaint if your only concern was the name.

 

[JJSliderman]

Time Eater doesn’t have soul erasure iirc, so Sonic doesn’t resist that part of erasure.

 

[RedReaper616]

......Hax ignores power, that is in the page for it here even.....so no, that doesn't work

Yes, but you wouldn't assume say, the hax of Bill Cipher would affect someone whose power operates on an "Outerversal" level, would you? Neither would I. Nor would I assume the ability to reflect (shown only so far to be street level) would stop a planetary punch. Or the ability to reduce speed (has only affected the Hypersonic) to slow down the immeasurable. The No Limits Fallacy has been made for a reason.

What you are thinking is "smurf hax" aka higher dimensional.....which doesn't have to do with power as well

They absolutely do? It's hax working on a higher level. While it's not power in the conventional sense, it's still a legitimate order of magnitude above the opposition's shown resistance or offensive, and thus still matters.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Me too wtf

Check the edits of the page if anything, funnily enough I remember that on the page as well.

On a separate note, @RedReaper616 hax range doesn't automatically equate to hax potency anymore, it's why Kirby and Luke's mindhax no longer carries the notoriety it had years ago.

 

[Alexander]

I don't really understand this complaint if your only concern was the name.

Because to be honest, dimensions or hyperspace>hypertimelines.
and at least Ficción sin limites uses this method and not the hypertimelines

 

[Omegabronic]

Yes, but you wouldn't assume say, the hax of Bill Cipher would affect someone whose power operates on an "Outerversal" level, would you? Neither would I.

1 Don't answer for me, who do you think you are, ME? how dare you BE ME?
2......depends, are they 1-A purely in stats? Cause if so then it would ABSOLUTELY work

Nor would I assume the ability to reflect (shown only so far to be street level) would stop a planetary punch.

In that instance it is a hax tied to AP/Stats, an exeption, not the rule

Or the ability to reduce speed (has only affected the Hypersonic) to slow down the immeasurable.

same as above, doesn't enter in this conversation

The No Limits Fallacy has been made for a reason.

which doesn't apply to most hax, if you are 10-A and hax dutability negation hax, a 1-A that doesn't resist it will be affected all the same

They absolutely do? It's hax working on a higher level. While it's not power in the conventional sense, it's still a legitimate order of magnitude above the opposition's shown resistance or offensive, and thus still matters.

It doesn't, dimensionality doesn't inherently mean power, hence why the space between universes, which is 5D, doesn't give Low 1-C, or why HDE doesn't give AP by default

 

[Executor_N0]

Because to be honest, dimensions or hyperspace>hypertimelines.
and at least Ficción sin limites uses this method and not the hypertimelines

Hypertimelines is just a fancy word to describe an extra-dimensional axis that encompasses parallel space-times (It's actually no different from a multiverse, but using a new word sometimes makes people not notice it).

 

[Alexander]

Hypertimelines is just a fancy word to describe an extra-dimensional axis that encompasses parallel space-times (It's actually no different from a multiverse, but using a new word sometimes makes people not notice it).

Then don't even use it if we already have it has higher dimensions, higher dimensions already serve that purpose more or less (and Dragón ball has none of that besides the Author things)

 

[Theuser789]

Time Eater doesn’t have soul erasure iirc, so Sonic doesn’t resist that part of erasure.

Sonic resists soul hax, I think.

 

[JJSliderman]

He resists soul BFR, not erasure.

 

[RedReaper616]

1 Don't answer for me, who do you think you are, ME? how dare you BE ME?

The Tufflization Plan is almost complete...

2......depends, are they 1-A purely in stats? Cause if so then it would ABSOLUTELY work

It wouldn't matter because this implies the hax works on cosmological systems it has no evidence of doing so. That's the point.

which doesn't apply to most hax, if you are 10-A and hax dutability negation hax, a 1-A that doesn't resist it will be affected all the same

Durability Negation is unique as a hax in that it explicitly disregards the physical composition of an enemy. Whereas hax I'm referring to would not be assumed to work infinitely because they've only demonstrated finite effect. Similarly, the power of the Arabian Nights is as far as I know NOT breaching into the level of infinity Arale's story powers work on.

It doesn't, dimensionality doesn't inherently mean power, hence why the space between universes, which is 5D, doesn't give Low 1-C, or why HDE doesn't give AP by default

That's not the same. Affecting multiple universes isn't 5D--At least not "Significant" 5D. It's simply having the energy to cross that space. However, if that Space is Significantly 5D, or an infinite spatially transcendent higher dimensional structure and you destroy all of it, that IS 5D, which DOES give Low 1-C. What you've given is a false equivalence.

Further, it still doesn't matter? Ignoring ALL of that, Arale's abilities are layered. No one has demonstrated why Sonic's resistance would be layered. Thus, it'd still work.

 

[Omegabronic]

Time Eater doesn’t have soul erasure iirc, so Sonic doesn’t resist that part of erasure.

He does since he erased Cyber Space

Again, will be implemented as well

 

[Alexander]

The Tufflization Plan is almost complete...

It wouldn't matter because this implies the hax works on cosmological systems it has no evidence of doing so. That's the point.

Durability Negation is unique as a hax in that it explicitly disregards the physical composition of an enemy. Whereas hax I'm referring to would not be assumed to work infinitely because they've only demonstrated finite effect. Similarly, the power of the Arabian Nights is as far as I know NOT breaching into the level of infinity Arale's story powers work on.

That's not the same. Affecting multiple universes isn't 5D--At least not "Significant" 5D. It's simply having the energy to cross that space. However, if that Space is Significantly 5D, or an infinite spatially transcendent higher dimensional structure and you destroy all of it, that IS 5D, which DOES give Low 1-C. What you've given is a false equivalence.

Further, it still doesn't matter? Ignoring ALL of that, Arale's abilities are layered. No one has demonstrated why Sonic's resistance would be layered. Thus, it'd still work.

Sonic still wins against Arale by having way many more abilities

 

[RedReaper616]

Sonic still wins against Arale by having way many more abilities

...Which is irrelevant to the conversation. The point is "Does Sonic (more accurately, Super Forms) resist this one specific thing?" Not "does Sonic beat Arale?"

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. It just literally doesn't matter. Arale could be the gum on Sonic's shoe--It doesn't allow him to resist this one specific ability she has.

 

[Alexander]

...Which is irrelevant to the conversation. The point is "Does Sonic (more accurately, Super Forms) resist this one specific thing?" Not "does Sonic beat Arale?"

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. It just literally doesn't matter. Arale could be the gum on Sonic's shoe--It doesn't allow him to resist this one specific ability she has.

which i don't care really

 

[Omegabronic]

The Tufflization Plan is almost complete...

You.......you Baby!

It wouldn't matter because this implies the hax works on cosmological systems it has no evidence of doing so. That's the point.

No since they wouldn't be affecting any cosmology, but a character, unless the char has like, 1-A HDE or resistance or something, 3-D durability negation hax would work

Durability Negation is unique as a hax in that it explicitly disregards the physical composition of an enemy. Whereas hax I'm referring to would not be assumed to work infinitely because they've only demonstrated finite effect. Similarly, the power of the Arabian Nights is as far as I know NOT breaching into the level of infinity Arale's story powers work on.

.......again, stats/range doesn't matter here

I literally didn't mentioned arale in my point as i am talking in general

That's not the same. Affecting multiple universes isn't 5D--At least not "Significant" 5D. It's simply having the energy to cross that space. However, if that Space is Significantly 5D, or an infinite spatially transcendent higher dimensional structure and you destroy all of it, that IS 5D, which DOES give Low 1-C. What you've given is a false equivalence.

Nope, both significant and non significant 5D are equally 5D, just like all of Physical universe space is as 3D as you, thus both are equally "infinitely more complex" than 4D and bellow hax

Further, it still doesn't matter? Ignoring ALL of that, Arale's abilities are layered. No one has demonstrated why Sonic's resistance would be layered. Thus, it'd still work.

.......i'm sorry, when did i affirmed you would? Why are you trying to make me say "Arale soloes Sonic with Plot hax" so much? Lol dude, i don't really care nor did i even mentioned her, AT ALL

 

[RedReaper616]

I literally didn't mentioned arale in my point as i am talking in general

Then what the heck are you talking about? This was literally the topic.

Nope, both significant and non significant 5D are equally 5D, just like all of Physical universe space is as 3D as you, thus both are equally "infinitely more complex" than 4D and bellow hax

No. Whilst both are "5D," they are NOT equivalent. Hence why one gives you a tier and one does not.

.......i'm sorry, when did i affirmed you would? Why are you trying to make me say "Arale soloes Sonic with Plot hax" so much? Lol dude, i don't really care nor did i even mentioned her, AT ALL

Again, then NOTHING you're saying is worth anything, because Arale's level of effect compared to Sonic was the entire conversation.

(Mind you, who wins is irrelevant. We're talking solely how viable his resistance is.)

 

[FaceOff81]

Sonic still wins

 

[Omegabronic]

Then what the heck are you talking about? This was literally the topic.

.....poiting reasonings i disagreed with is all

No. Whilst both are "5D," they are NOT equivalent. Hence why one gives you a tier and one does not.

In terms of "potency"/"smurfness" they are both the same, yeah, since dimensionally wise they are both the same

Again, then NOTHING you're saying is worth anything, because Arale's level of effect compared to Sonic was the entire conversation.

.....eh, no, i saw some reasonings you gave as to why that i disagreed with

I can agree with the end result without agreeing with the road that leds to it

 

[Executor_N0]

Then don't even use it if we already have it has higher dimensions, higher dimensions already serve that purpose more or less (and Dragón ball has none of that besides the Author things)

The moment something gets popular, it doesn't matter if there's already an established word for it that is more encompassing and studied about, it's even how we got Conceptual Manipulation instead of Universals Manipulation and other stuff. People will use words they prefer/think is cool.

 

[Issen_Mk_III]

I think I opened Pandora's Box.

 

[Omegabronic]

I think I opened Pandora's Box.

Huh? Is there chocolate inside?

 

[Alexander]

I think I opened Pandora's Box.

Que carajo hiciste

 

[Issen_Mk_III]

Huh? Is there chocolate inside?

I hope that's chocolate.

 

[Issen_Mk_III]

Que carajo hiciste

Asked questions about Forced Spirit Fission & Hakai in Sonic general.

 

[Alexander]

Asked questions about Forced Spirit Fission & Hakai in Sonic general.

La cagaste bien grande

 

[Issen_Mk_III]

La cagaste bien grande

Yeah I did.

 

[Executor_N0]

I remember when Ian said this on Bumblekast, but I never thought it would really matter as I thought everything would be checked by Sonic Team according to what happened before, but if this is the reason why they had Shadow not use Chaos Control and instead seek for a rocket it'll be once again seeing Ian bringing limitations for the Chaos Emeralds that were never there. I hope that in the end, it's something like "Shadow won't bring the Chaos Emeralds in fear of Black Doom taking over them" or something like that.

 

[Alexander]

I remember when Ian said this on Bumblekast, but I never thought it would really matter as I thought everything would be checked by Sonic Team according to what happened before, but if this is the reason why they had Shadow not use Chaos Control and instead seek for a rocket it'll be once again seeing Ian bringing limitations for the Chaos Emeralds that were never there. I hope that in the end, it's something like "Shadow won't bring the Chaos Emeralds in fear of Black Doom taking over them" or something like that.

Wait what

 

[Executor_N0]

Wait what

Basically, Dark Beginnings has the plot point of Shadow looking for a spaceship to get to the Ark, but theoretically, he had the emerald he showed in the first episode, so he could just... Chaos Control to there as he did before (And has been a thing he was shown to do even in recent material, like Sonic Prime and the Sonic Channel stories).

So a few people are wondering why he isn't just doing that. In the end, it's likely that Ian just wrote Dark Beginnings thinking Shadow couldn't do that with emeralds, because he doesn't think emeralds can space travel, only stop time. (Of course, don't know how he would explain Iizuka's statements of Black Doom literally reshaping space-time in Shadows Generations creating entire dimensions under his control).

 

[Alexander]

Basically, Dark Beginnings has the plot point of Shadow looking for a spaceship to get to the Ark, but theoretically, he had the emerald he showed in the first episode, so he could just... Chaos Control to there as he did before (And has been a thing he was shown to do even in recent material, like Sonic Prime and the Sonic Channel stories).

So a few people are wondering why he isn't just doing that. In the end, it's likely that Ian just wrote Dark Beginnings thinking Shadow couldn't do that with emeralds, because he doesn't think emeralds can space travel, only stop time. (Of course, don't know how he would explain Iizuka's statements of Black Doom literally reshaping space-time in Shadows Generations creating entire dimensions under his control).

Ian does not like powerful characters, he can't control them in a way he likes, which is...sad in a way, because he just limits himself in this line of thinking that the characters can't do something they actually do in another Game

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Basically, Dark Beginnings has the plot point of Shadow looking for a spaceship to get to the Ark, but theoretically, he had the emerald he showed in the first episode, so he could just... Chaos Control to there as he did before (And has been a thing he was shown to do even in recent material, like Sonic Prime and the Sonic Channel stories).

So a few people are wondering why he isn't just doing that. In the end, it's likely that Ian just wrote Dark Beginnings thinking Shadow couldn't do that with emeralds, because he doesn't think emeralds can space travel, only stop time. (Of course, don't know how he would explain Iizuka's statements of Black Doom literally reshaping space-time in Shadows Generations creating entire dimensions under his control).

Then explain to me how Sonic used Chaos Control to escape that exploding pod then, Ian. And that was with a fake Chaos Emerald, mind you.

I get that Ian isn't a fan of making Sonic characters OP, I can respect that mindset. But come on, that sort of belief just ignores what Chaos Control has been able to do in previous games.

 

[Executor_N0]

Then explain to me how Sonic used Chaos Control to escape that exploding pod then, Ian. And that was with a fake Chaos Emerald, mind you.

In fact, Ian replies so much about "Why can't character X do Y since it did so in Z?" that I guess his answer could be "The game isn't canon/100% canon" (He mostly says that for Sonic Rivals and Sonic Battle), "That is something that we see in gameplay, but that isn't really true in-universe" (Basically everything shown in gameplay, even if it also appears in cutscenes), "That got it wrong", or maybe just "It was, it doesn't now".

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Then explain to me how Sonic used Chaos Control to escape that exploding pod then, Ian. And that was with a fake Chaos Emerald, mind you.

I get that Ian isn't a fan of making Sonic characters OP, I can respect that mindset. But come on, that sort of belief just ignores what Chaos Control has been able to do in previous games.

I would respect it if not for the fact that they were already OP. Just roll with it. You don't have to care about thier EXACT feats of speed or power when writing stories, as long as the characters are still portrayed as superhuman to not be inconvinienced by things that regular human have survived. Just respect thier damn abillities, man. It's not that hard.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

In fact, Ian replies so much about "Why can't character X do Y since it did so in Z?" that I guess his answer could be "The game isn't canon/100% canon" (He mostly says that for Sonic Rivals and Sonic Battle), "That is something that we see in gameplay, but that isn't really true in-universe" (Basically everything shown in gameplay, even if it also appears in cutscenes), "That got it wrong", or maybe just "It was, it doesn't now".

So in other words: "Pre established mechanics are changed to what I want them to be to fit my beliefs despite them being contradicted by games and other pieces of media written by people before me."

 

[Peptocoptr27]

The average DC writer be like:

So in other words: "Pre established mechanics are changed to what I want them to be to fit my beliefs despite them being contradicted by games and other pieces of media written by people before me."

No wonder both series are crossing over. God, this is gonna be such a mess

 

[Executor_N0]

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Whoever was asking why I'm not super fond of Ian, I hope you understand better now.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Is that him just lightly trolling or what exactly? Because I'm pretty sure that second comment is him being sarcastic or something like that