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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

JJSliderman said:
Spirit fission works by separating non-inherent energy from the target, and I don’t think it was ever implied you need to be comparable power to do so, so I think it would work to separate the Chaos Emeralds and chaos energy, yeah.
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and then the Emeralds would just......re enter the user, making it null and void
 
JJSliderman said:
Spirit fission would work on every super form, not sure all of them could pull the Emeralds back in time.
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The Emeralds themselves would, it isn't a manner of "user has to do it", if the User is thinking, then the Emeralds will respond and insta make them transform back


but also, this is assuming FSF would work on Conceptual,Abstract energy anyway
 
Omegabronic said:
the only moment Eggman was able to separate the Emeralds from Super Sonic was with that 1 machine in Unleashed, which "reverted their polarity" according to the guide
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I highy doubt Eggman would be able to do that with Startfall Island Super Sonic and Hyper Sonic truth be told.
 
If base Sonic could eat Supreme's Spirit bomb while the emeralds are surrounding him,I don't see anyone in canon Dragon Ball being able to deliver a killing blow during this phase when their attacks are technically infinitely weaker & slower.
 
RedReaper616 said:
Moro said that in reference to just landing the blow, not power output. This sounds weird, but remember, when Vegeta arrived it was HEAVILY stressed his strength was NO MATCH for Moro. Vegeta was able to reduce his powers because Moro messed around and tried to enjoy the battle, letting himself take damage (read: tank hits), and thus weakening him.

With that in mind, Vegeta could probably separate the Emeralds from Super Sonic. It just wouldn’t matter because they’d automatically return at the beckoning on his thoughts/to save them even when they weren’t in use as they’ve already shown they can do. So all that’d happen is Sonic would lose and nearly automatically regain the form, forcing Vegeta to start over.

And this is assuming they just don’t resist the hax of FSF outright.
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Didn't it also take a while to drain Moro? It wasn't automatic by any means,& he'd be trying to chip away at an energy well more infinite than any infinity he's comprehended before. He could probably wail on them forever & not make any leeway.
 
Issen_Mk_III said:
Didn't it also take a while to drain Moro? It wasn't automatic by any means,& he's be trying to chip away at an energy well more infinite than any infinity he's comprehended before. He could probably wail on them forever & not make any leeway.
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Ehhhh. "A while" is a bit of an overexaggeration. Moro was down to the level he was on Namek, which was old age, after having eaten all of Goku and Vegeta's Ki (twice),, wishing for Youth, and consuming countless worlds on his way to Earth in the span of panels/pages. Like, it wasn't immediate, but that's jumping from literally massively upscaling 2-C (vastly higher than multiple infinities amount of power) to a finite amount pretty quickly. You're not wrong, per se, because the Chaos Emeralds are vastly more powerful and have considerably more energy than that full power Moro, (by like a whole infinity's worth) but I legitimately dunno how that interaction would work since Vegeta has gouged out "infinite" energy from his opponent before.

EDIT: I imagine it'd be a temporary measure? Temporarily lowering their energy and weakening them, with the Emeralds refilling faster than they can drain it, maybe?
 
RedReaper616 said:
Ehhhh. "A while" is a bit of an overexaggeration. Moro was down to the level he was on Namek, which was old age, having eaten all of Goku and Vegeta's Ki (twice), and prior to consuming countless worlds on his way to Earth in the span of panels/pages. Like, it wasn't immediate, but that's jumping from literally massively upscaling 2-C (vastly higher than multiple infinities amount of power) to a finite amount pretty quickly. You're not wrong, per se, because the Chaos Emeralds are vastly more powerful and have considerably more energy than that full power Moro, (by like a whole infinity's worth) but I legitimately dunno how that interaction would work since Vegeta has gouged out "infinite" energy from his opponent before.

EDIT: I imagine it'd be a temporary measure? Temporarily lowering their energy and weakening them, with the Emeralds refilling faster than they can drain it, maybe?
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I see,I see.
 
Peptocoptr27 said:
That is the full amount he's collected over the years. The amount he carries is likely far less than that. I think his largest possible ring inventory is in 06 where he can carry up to 999999 if I recall right
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Wouldn't he have permanently absorbed most of those rings though? It's not like he gets hit hard enough to lose them very often. This is kinda where the chasm between narrative & mechanics gets created.
 
Forced Spirit Fission was also designed to work on Ki, which Chaos energy technically isn't. Also, with the fact that multiple characters can stay in Super at the same time, and we've even seen characters transform without needing to currently touch the Emeralds, I'm dubious that removing the Emeralds would actually shut off Super.
 
Issen_Mk_III said:
Wouldn't he have permanently absorbed most of those rings though? It's not like he gets hit hard enough to lose them very often. This is kinda where the chasm between narrative & mechanics gets created.
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In the context of something like Death Battle, I think it could make sense to grant him access to his full ring supply in order to have him at his best, but in the context of a VSBW profile, I don't even think rings should be in his standard equipment in the first place. Every time he canonically takes damage (such as in cutscenes), he never drops rings, so most of the time, he carries none. In the two canon instances in which he did, (Sonic Prime season 1 and Sonic Frontiers DLC) he only had a a few hundred rings at most, never more than the maximum he can carry in-game, let alone BILLIONS.
Omegabronic said:
Adcenture 2 has like, 10 digits iirc
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Where? In the Chao garden?
 
As for Hakai,why does that affect Sega Supers again? A Chaos Emerald punched Time Eater in the face from a state of nonexistence, Super upscale,no?

I'm probably missing something.
 
Issen_Mk_III said:
As for Hakai, why does that affect Sega Supers again? A Chaos Emerald punched Time Eater in the face from a state of nonexistence, Super upscale,no?

I'm probably missing something.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone claimed that, but if they DID, it's probably because due to the Arale episode, Hakai can permanently erase people who've come back from being removed/destroyed from the Narrative of Dr. Slump. Space-Time Erasure Resistance gets outgunned by Story Erasure. Of course, this ignores how Hakai is likely vastly slower than the Sonic cast thus would never land, and the fact only an explicit master like Beerus showed off that trait. Though if the character pulled a Toppo and made an armor of it, then you'd be killing yourself on hit, so maybe that would work? Presuming the Super Tier attacker is unaware of what Hakai can do.
 
RedReaper616 said:
I don't think anyone claimed that, but if they DID, it's probably because due to the Arale episode, Hakai can permanently erase people who've come back from being removed/destroyed from the Narrative of Dr. Slump. Space-Time Erasure Resistance gets outgunned by Story Erasure. Of course, this ignores how Hakai is likely vastly slower than the Sonic cast thus would never land, and the fact only an explicit master like Beerus showed off that trait. Though if the character pulled a Toppo and made an armor of it, then you'd be killing yourself on hit, so maybe that would work? Presuming the Super Tier attacker is unaware of what Hakai can do.
Click to expand...
Then we have Sonic and the secret rings with Sonic resisting Erazor djinn altering the arabian nights with the world rings, STORY INCLUDED.
 
RedReaper616 said:
I don't think anyone claimed that, but if they DID, it's probably because due to the Arale episode, Hakai can permanently erase people who've come back from being removed/destroyed from the Narrative of Dr. Slump. Space-Time Erasure Resistance gets outgunned by Story Erasure. Of course, this ignores how Hakai is likely vastly slower than the Sonic cast thus would never land, and the fact only an explicit master like Beerus showed off that trait. Though if the character pulled a Toppo and made an armor of it, then you'd be killing yourself on hit, so maybe that would work? Presuming the Super Tier attacker is unaware of what Hakai can do.
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Time Eater's erasure is accepted as plot erasure as well, here.
 
Alexander said:
Then we have Sonic and the secret rings with Sonic resisting Erazor djinn altering the arabian nights with the world rings, STORY INCLUDED.
Click to expand...
1) I dunno if that's the same. Sonic resisted story alteration when he was "inside a story" relative to the "normal world." Conversely, Arale's plot manipulation works on the "normal world." It'd be like comparing someone like Bugs Bunny and his story powers (being the literal author) to Dipper or any other character getting into a comic book/TV and controlling it. Just not the same as far as I know.

2) While the Arabian Nights have 1001 stories/universes that comprises the story in which Erazor Manipulated, Arale operates on the same level as Tori-Bot. In other words, the Hypertimelines of Dragon Ball, the various continuities (she references the films, GT, and crossed over with Super, meaning all are within her sphere of control), leaped into the stories of Dragon Quest, etc. Even if we assumed they were the same "kind" of story power, hers operated on a MUCH greater scale than Erazor (and thus Sonic) have ever demonstrated, but her big bad still returned-Compared to when he was PERMANENTLY KO'd by Beerus. Further, her powers are layered and thus a single layer of plot manipulation resistance simply isn't enough to combat her.

So I dunno how that comparison would shake out, but I'd wager not in Sonic's favor. Not to mention Sonic's resistance hasn't been demonstrated to be at all inherent to a Super form, so I don't know why it's even being brought up.
 
Theuser789 said:
Time Eater's erasure is accepted as plot erasure as well, here.
Click to expand...
Where? Because checking right now, it's not on it's profile. ALSO, it'd still need to demonstrate layered levels of story manipulation. Given Sonic tanked it like he did the initial go around for Erazor, there's no reason to presume it's above Baseline as far as I know.
 
RedReaper616 said:
1) I dunno if that's the same. Sonic resisted story alteration when he was "inside a story" relative to the "normal world." Conversely, Arale's plot manipulation works on the "normal world." It'd be like comparing someone like Bugs Bunny and his story powers (being the literal author) to Dipper or any other character getting into a comic book/TV and controlling it. Just not the same as far as I know.

2) While the Arabian Nights have 1001 stories/universes that comprises the story in which Erazor Manipulated, Arale operates on the same level as Tori-Bot. In other words, the Hypertimelines of Dragon Ball, the various continuities (she references the films, GT, and crossed over with Super, meaning all are within her sphere of control), leaped into the stories of Dragon Quest, etc. Even if we assumed they were the same "kind" of story power, hers operated on a MUCH greater scale than Erazor (and thus Sonic) have ever demonstrated, but her big bad still returned-Compared to when he was PERMANENTLY KO'd by Beerus. Further, her powers are layered and thus a single layer of plot manipulation resistance simply isn't enough to combat her.

So I dunno how that comparison would shake out, but I'd wager not in Sonic's favor. Not to mention Sonic's resistance hasn't been demonstrated to be at all inherent to a Super form, so I don't know why it's even being brought up.
Click to expand...
Interesting,I knew Arale was pretty busted,but not to this degree.
 
RedReaper616 said:
1) I dunno if that's the same. Sonic resisted story alteration when he was "inside a story" relative to the "normal world." Conversely, Arale's plot manipulation works on the "normal world." It'd be like comparing someone like Bugs Bunny and his story powers (being the literal author) to Dipper or any other character getting into a comic book/TV and controlling it. Just not the same as far as I know.

2) While the Arabian Nights have 1001 stories/universes that comprises the story in which Erazor Manipulated, Arale operates on the same level as Tori-Bot. In other words, the Hypertimelines of Dragon Ball, the various continuities (she references the films, GT, and crossed over with Super, meaning all are within her sphere of control), leaped into the stories of Dragon Quest, etc. Even if we assumed they were the same "kind" of story power, hers operated on a MUCH greater scale than Erazor (and thus Sonic) have ever demonstrated, but her big bad still returned-Compared to when he was PERMANENTLY KO'd by Beerus. Further, her powers are layered and thus a single layer of plot manipulation resistance simply isn't enough to combat her.

So I dunno how that comparison would shake out, but I'd wager not in Sonic's favor. Not to mention Sonic's resistance hasn't been demonstrated to be at all inherent to a Super form, so I don't know why it's even being brought up.
Click to expand...
Hypertimelines got mentioned, me mato, luego revivo, para matarme de nuevo.
Also the Arabian nights is a entire universe of its own, the book is a portal to that world, the comparison is not even the same
 
Alexander said:
Hypertimelines got mentioned, me mato, luego revivo, para matarme de nuevo.
Also the Arabian nights is a entire universe of its own, the book is a portal to that world, the comparison is not even the same
Click to expand...
That's...somehow less than what I said? I said 1001 Universes/Stories. You're giving it one. If anything, you're arguing it's weaker?
 
RedReaper616 said:
I don't think anyone claimed that, but if they DID, it's probably because due to the Arale episode, Hakai can permanently erase people who've come back from being removed/destroyed from the Narrative of Dr. Slump. Space-Time Erasure Resistance gets outgunned by Story Erasure. Of course, this ignores how Hakai is likely vastly slower than the Sonic cast thus would never land, and the fact only an explicit master like Beerus showed off that trait. Though if the character pulled a Toppo and made an armor of it, then you'd be killing yourself on hit, so maybe that would work? Presuming the Super Tier attacker is unaware of what Hakai can do.
Click to expand...
After my cosmology thread, Basesonic will resist that as well....so meh i will seriohsly try to launch it this weekend.....enough is enough, trimming at one point becomes obssesion.....i NEED TO BREAK MY INNER CICLE
 
I maybe have i already say this previosly, but Hypertimelines are the most dumb thing ever implemented.
why are making this even a thing? Hypertime is a concept of DC, not a concept of general fiction.
And we are trying to say that verses have a higher dimension of time based on...timelines inside timelines?at that point just don't called it hypertimelines, is the name and the way is put it at it my problem.
 
RedReaper616 said:
Where? Because checking right now, it's not on it's profile. ALSO, it'd still need to demonstrate layered levels of story manipulation. Given Sonic tanked it like he did the initial go around for Erazor, there's no reason to presume it's above Baseline as far as I know.
Click to expand...
I could swear it already was in the page, but I know it will be in the future.
 
Omegabronic said:
Why would the range matter for the potency here?
Click to expand...
I mean, whilst technically it is range, within fiction this often translates to power. This is how Tier 2 works (for now). So until then, it's a viable metric.
Alexander said:
I maybe have i already say this previosly, but Hypertimelines are the most dumb thing ever implemented.
why are making this even a thing? Hypertime is a concept of DC, not a concept of general fiction.
And we are trying to say that verses have a higher dimension of time based on...timelines inside timelines?at that point just don't called it hypertimelines, is the name and the way is put it at it my problem.
Click to expand...
Hypertimeline is just the easiest way to define it after being codified within fiction. If you wanna call it a Supertimeline instead, sure, whatever, but it's the same thing and Arale operates on that level (at least) so she's still barking up a higher story level than Sonic does with the Arabian Nights (the only form of story resistance he has that I know of).
 
Theuser789 said:
I could swear it already was in the page, but I know it will be in the future.
Click to expand...
Oooo, I'd like to see the stuffs. Mostly because I'd be interested to see how it could then be used for Bowser V Eggman, given Bowser can manipulate stories (more specifically he manipulated the story of a play/book and then leaped into it, not the story of his own world.)
 
RedReaper616 said:
I mean, whilst technically it is range, within fiction this often translates to power. This is how Tier 2 works (for now). So until then, it's a viable metric.
Click to expand...
......Hax ignores power, that is in the page for it here even.....so no, that doesn't work

What you are thinking is "smurf hax" aka higher dimensional.....which doesn't have to do with power as well
 
RedReaper616 said:
I mean, whilst technically it is range, within fiction this often translates to power. This is how Tier 2 works (for now). So until then, it's a viable metric.

Hypertimeline is just the easiest way to define it after being codified within fiction. If you wanna call it a Supertimeline instead, sure, whatever, but it's the same thing and Arale operates on that level (at least) so she's still barking up a higher story level than Sonic does with the Arabian Nights (the only form of story resistance he has that I know of).
Click to expand...
No, not "Super"or "hyper"or anything like that, just no something timelines, and we have dimensions already, why add hypertimelines?
 
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