Soni- I mean! Mario Bros AP Revision/Upgrade! (M&L Brothership Spoilers)

[ShakeResounding]

... Because it's been a week and nobody else has yet.

Hello all, I'm sure we're well-acquainted with the stats of the Mario verse. While this isn't some Tier 3 upgrade, this will establish the verse as higher into Tier 6 than what they currently are (that being 6-C)

Feat 1: Shadow Queen causes an earthquake felt from Rougueport to Poshley Heights while possessing Peach's body - 108.55 Gigatons, High 6-C.

• Supposedly inapplicable due to Mario being unable to harm Shadow Queen.
•  Starsprite53 showed a scan implying a later boss is superior to the Shadow Queen.

Feat 2: Luigi swings a giant cord to connect to a satellite - 7.29 Petatons, High 6-A/.23 c, Relativistic/3.284695e+24 kg, Class Y.

Feat 3 (Power-Up Exclusive): Snoutlet states that the Ice Flower can freeze the Sun - No proper calculation. From what I've observed, freezing the surface of the Sun can net High 6-A and an old calc from a former staff member rated freezing the entire thing as Low 4-C.

• Calc Member Discussion/Evaluation is needed to discuss this third feat.

Overall:

• it seems that these calcs warrant a buff to High 6-A for those scaling to Base Mario and Base Luigi, with an additional High 6-C support calc (because I'm 99% sure cross-scaling is valid here). Additionally, Luigi directly displays a Class Y feat that I assume can be scaled to those who scale to him.
• I'm unsure if the Ice Flower alone would get an AP to a higher tier or if people think all power-ups should scale equally. I suppose this thread will determine that.

And that's it. Time to discuss.

Staff Agree: 4 (DarkDragonMedeus [everything], CloverDragon03 [everything], Planck69 [High 6-A], Theglassman12 [High 6-A])

Staff Neutral: 1 (Planck69 [Ice Flower Feat])

Staff Disagree: 3 (Armorchompy [everything], Mr. Bambu [everything], Tllmbrg [everything])

• Maverick Zero X expressed neutrality, leaning towards agreement with Armor.

 

[Dalesean027]

@Armorchompy @DarkDragonMedeus

And this is all ik for mario goons off hand

 

[ShionAH]

When will Mario fans do the Tier 1 Mario CRT man come on I aint no wanna see Tier 6 Bowser no more

 

[JJSliderman]

When you get the site to accept matter splatter and cutout space as 5-D

 

[ShakeResounding]

I'd like to get the Base cast to Tier 5 if possible, with higher power-ups. Granted, we'll see how this goes.

 

[AStrangeverse]

was not expecting this, damn

nice work

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Agree with this CRT, I've been waiting patiently for the day someone tried to get Base Mario out of Island Level limbo and this seems to be it.

 

[Spinoirr]

Watching

Definitely won't make Deku vs Mario characters once deku also becomes high 6-A

 

[Robot972]

I'm still waiting for someone to calc the Toads towing the islands. Cause that being random fodder toads has the potential to scale to minions lol

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good.

 

[Dalesean027]

Haven't said so myself but this looks fine, I'd say the low 4-C is the simplest assumption

 

[Jason_Courne]

Feat 3 (Power-Up Exclusive): Snoutlet states that the Ice Flower can freeze the Sun - No proper calculation. From what I've observed, freezing the surface of the Sun can net High 6-A and an old calc from a former staff member rated freezing the entire thing as Low 4-C.

I remember seeing a few calculations on reddit that put the feat at baseline 4-C by calculating the yield per individual layer of the sun

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Agree

We have to wait and see if one day base Mario will have a higher tier than Saitama lol

 

[Armorchompy]

Feat 1: Shadow Queen causes an earthquake felt from Rougueport to Poshley Heights while possessing Peach's body - 108.55 Gigatons, High 6-C.

Mario doesn't scale to the Shadow Queen in base. He literally cannot hurt her in any relevant way until he gets buffed by everyone's prayers. (If the claim is he could fight her while in Peach's body, she says it outright that she only suffered slight damage from his attacks even in that state, and she does the feat in her true form anyways)

Feat 3 (Power-Up Exclusive): Snoutlet states that the Ice Flower can freeze the Sun - No proper calculation. From what I've observed, freezing the surface of the Sun can net High 6-A and an old calc from a former staff member rated freezing the entire thing as Low 4-C.

This isn't viable without further context in my opinion. Like I haven't played Brothership so maybe there's more but this is literally just one line of text with no elaboration. Who is this guy, why is he a reliable source in stating this, and even if he is why are we taking it for granted the feat isn't overtime or performed in some way that can't be scaled to M&L's usage of it?

Feat 2: Luigi swings a giant cord to connect to a satellite - 29.16 Petatons, High 6-A/.23 c, Relativistic/1.7761496e+17 kg, Class P (iirc about 6x higher than the cast's current Class P value).

There is an argument that there's some weirdness in this feat (both the satellites and the cord aren't to scale with the planet, given we see they're only a few meters big, so why are we assuming the distance between them and the planet is?) but all things considered I would consider it legitimate. I don't however think this moves the needle in regards to the verse's tiering. It's... one valid feat with essentially no support and the sheer amount of anti-feats that got the verse downgraded hasn't gone anywhere (In fact Brothership adds a few more, and Jamboree adds a LOT).

 

[Dalesean027]

Who is this guy, why is he a reliable source in stating this, and even if he is why are we taking it for granted the feat isn't overtime or performed in some way that can't be scaled to M&L's usage of it

I haven't played brothership myself but ik the guy explains the abilities to both mario and luigi and he gives them both a feat through statements regarding the specifc power ups but thats about all I know there, does that at least work for a possibly you think?

There is an argument that there's some weirdness in this feat (both the satellites and the cord aren't to scale with the planet, given we see they're only a few meters big, so why are we assuming the distance between them and the planet is?) but all things considered I would consider it legitimate

Tbf we know when dealing with celestial body shit generally games ain't gonna make them to scale because like cost and processing be damned and given this is Mario of all things and it'd for sure be more stylized I don't think that's entirely fair but you still consider it legitimate regardless so that's fine as long as we aren't fully dismissing it cause of the artstyle

 

[SeijiSetto]

i had like one (1) thing to say about the plug-toss calc that i was gonna mention earlier when Flashlight last replied to me but i forgor until now, i've left another comment

 

[CloverDragon03]

At the very least I agree with an upgrade from the High 6-A feat

6-C was such an arbitrary choice for a tier that the argument to keep it as is leaves me entirely unconvinced

 

[Speedblitzer50]

I also think that the Mario bros range should be updated through Conductor Connector

 

[Starsprite53]

Mario doesn't scale to the Shadow Queen in base. He literally cannot hurt her in any relevant way until he gets buffed by everyone's prayers. (If the claim is he could fight her while in Peach's body, she says it outright that she only suffered slight damage from his attacks even in that state, and she does the feat in her true form anyways

Dead Dragon goes brrr

 

[JJSliderman]

Normalize making secret bosses the strongest in the game lore-wise

 

[Armorchompy]

I haven't played brothership myself but ik the guy explains the abilities to both mario and luigi and he gives them both a feat through statements regarding the specifc power ups but thats about all I know there, does that at least work for a possibly you think?

Ehh

Like to be clear, if Brothership was like, one game in a small linear series I'd be fine with that (as I would be fine with High 6-A as a straight-up solid rating), but I think with looking at the bigger picture using a pretty questionable statement for such a big upgrade for a verse with such an inconsistent power level, I wouldn't.

Tbf we know when dealing with celestial body shit generally games ain't gonna make them to scale because like cost and processing be damned and given this is Mario of all things and it'd for sure be more stylized I don't think that's entirely fair but you still consider it legitimate regardless so that's fine as long as we aren't fully dismissing it cause of the artstyle

Yeah no the feat is fine, I brought up the nitpick because it is a factor but it's a small one.

Dead Dragon goes brrr

Listen like, I get what you mean but this is obviously just talking from a gameplay perspective. It makes no sense to say that Paper Mario bridged the gap he had with the Queen when it's something he was completely unable to do before, and when his power relations to the rest of the cast don't change afterwards (Bowser should NOT be comparable to him in SPM).

... But that doesn't matter because it turns out they changed what she says in the remake to "She's probably stronger than your basic final-boss type, seriously!", which is just poking fun at the concept of a superboss. So, not really a valid statement to begin with.

I also think that the Mario bros range should be updated through Conductor Connector

This is fair

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also SeijiSetto made some additional comments on my calc, I'mma adjust it once I'm at a PC

 

[Eseseso]

Armor's argument about the Shadow Queen makes sense, she was stomping Mario before being power nulled.

Neutral on the star-freezing stuff

 

[CloverDragon03]

Updated the calc. It's now 7.29 petatons, which is still High 6-A. Most notably though, the Lifting Strength shot way up to Class Y

 

[ShakeResounding]

Well, I suppose the trade-off is nice.

I'll adjust the OP.

 

[CloverDragon03]

So yeah, I think the reasoning used to not use the High 6-A calc is very bad. This part in particular gets me:

I don't however think this moves the needle in regards to the verse's tiering. It's... one valid feat with essentially no support and the sheer amount of anti-feats that got the verse downgraded hasn't gone anywhere

Like I'm not sure if anyone realizes just how much this kind of thinking can be utterly abused to just stonewall any upgrade attempt ever because "muh anti-feats." Like, if you care so much about the anti-feats, why is Mario even Tier 6 to begin with? Why didn't you just go all the way and make him Tier 9 because any higher feat can be dismissed with "muh anti-feats"? This is just a complete non-argument

 

[SeijiSetto]

updated version looks good, i've left a comment on the blog saying the same thing just for posterity.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Like, if you care so much about the anti-feats, why is Mario even Tier 6 to begin with? Why didn't you just go all the way and make him Tier 9 because any higher feat can be dismissed with "muh anti-feats"? This is just a complete non-argument

Yup I knew Mario was tier 9. #raw but I'm pretty sure armor explained why he didn't go with that

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I suppose Armor raises a valid point that we'd need more than 1 feat on a certain Tier.

Unsure about the Shadow Queen scaling at the moment.

 

[Arceus0x]

I agree with the changes proposed here.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Why won't the base cast just scale to most non extreme power ups either way?
Bowser can usually tank all kinds of flowers in base form, and so on

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yup I knew Mario was tier 9. #raw but I'm pretty sure armor explained why he didn't go with that

He did but I think it's just as arbitrary. My big problem now is that the reasoning being used is such an easy way to stonewall any tier revision for Mario without actually arguing at all

 

[Armorchompy]

Like I'm not sure if anyone realizes just how much this kind of thinking can be utterly abused to just stonewall any upgrade attempt ever because "muh anti-feats." Like, if you care so much about the anti-feats, why is Mario even Tier 6 to begin with? Why didn't you just go all the way and make him Tier 9 because any higher feat can be dismissed with "muh anti-feats"? This is just a complete non-argument

I mean, it can. But I don't think it's "stonewalling" to say that a character should not be a certain tier if there's many more anti-feats against it than feats for it. Sure I've made the argument a handful of times already but like... yeah? If multiple threads are made with the argument of "this feat is a certain level" the counter-argument of "there are several anti-feats below that level" is going to remain equally viable for all of them, something isn't going to stop being reasonable just because it has to be repeated.

He did but I think it's just as arbitrary. My big problem now is that the reasoning being used is such an easy way to stonewall any tier revision for Mario without actually arguing at all

It's not arbitrary. My reasoning was that 6-C (unlike High 6-A) did have a good amount of feats to support it. There's two 6-C feats (moon punch and the SMRPG cloud thing) and a dozen of tier 7 ones, as well as a lot of high end tier 8 feats. If one went by pure consistency Mario'd probably end up at like 8-B but while 6-C is a highball (which it is, as much as people may not like that) it does have proper backing. One single High 6-A feat does not.

Why won't the base cast just scale to most non extreme power ups either way?
Bowser can usually tank all kinds of flowers in base form, and so on

For the record unless the flowers in Brothership are somehow different from the rest of the series, I do agree with the idea that they would be comparable to the cast.

 

[Starsprite53]

Gonna tackle this later

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean, it can. But I don't think it's "stonewalling" to say that a character should not be a certain tier if there's many more anti-feats against it than feats for it. Sure I've made the argument a handful of times already but like... yeah? If multiple threads are made with the argument of "this feat is a certain level" the counter-argument of "there are several anti-feats below that level" is going to remain equally valid for all of them, something isn't going to stop being valid just because it has to be repeated.

I think it is stonewalling to just repeat a catch-all response ad infinitum no matter what happens just to gatekeep any feat ever. Not to sound a certain way but I can imagine that's why a lot of supporters gave up even trying to argue against it

It's not arbitrary. My reasoning was that 6-C (unlike High 6-A) did have a good amount of feats backing it. There's two 6-C feats (moon punch and the SMRPG cloud thing) and a handful of tier 7 ones, as well as a lot of high end tier 8 feats. If one went by pure consistency Mario'd probably end up at like 8-B but while 6-C is a highball (which it is, as much as people may not like that) it does have proper backing. One single High 6-A feat does not.

The cloud thing didn't even exist when you actually went with 6-C so that's kind of a moot point, you were fine with just one 6-C feat back when you did the downgrade. And if multiple Tier 7 feats exist, by your logic you should've just gone with Tier 7.

I've made no secret of the fact that I think the current tiering for the Base Mario cast is founded on very poor logic

 

[Armorchompy]

I think it is stonewalling to just repeat a catch-all response ad infinitum no matter what happens just to gatekeep any feat ever. Not to sound a certain way but I can imagine that's why a lot of supporters gave up even trying to argue against it

Maybe it's a catch-all response because it makes sense and maybe the supporters gave up because they realized it made sense. What do you even want me to do, just stop saying it? If you don't think it's a "correct" argument disprove it.

The cloud thing didn't even exist when you actually went with 6-C so that's kind of a moot point, you were fine with just one 6-C feat back when you did the downgrade. And if multiple Tier 7 feats exist, by your logic you should've just gone with Tier 7.

Yes, and then people would have accused me of lowballing because I ignored a valid 6-C feat when it was just a bit higher than the proposed High 7-A rating. And they would have been right because accepting High 7-A but refusing 6-C makes no sense, whereas accepting 6-C and refusing High 6-A does.

I've made no secret of the fact that I think the current tiering for the Base Mario cast is founded on very poor logic

So you think the rating doesn't make sense because its tier doesn't have enough support when considering the anti-feats and you want to rate it much higher with much less support? That doesn't make much sense.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Maybe it's a catch-all response because it makes sense and maybe the supporters gave up because they realized there wasn't really any way to debunk it. What do you even want me to do, just stop saying it? If you don't think it's a "correct" argument disprove it.

You're cherrypicking, Armor. You're using this catch-all response to stop upgrade attempts but you don't even go all the way with it with how many Tier 9 things the Mario cast is threatened by. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't make sense at all with how you're going about it, and yet it can still be used to stonewall any opposition, and the supporters have known this for a while. That's why they gave up.

Yes, and then people would have accused me of lowballing because I ignored a valid 6-C feat when it was just a bit higher than the proposed High 7-A rating. And they would have been right because accepting High 7-A but refusing 6-C makes no sense, whereas accepting 6-C and refusing High 6-A does.

You didn't care about such accusations when you made the downgrade and dismissed the cosmic feats before, so why now?

So you think the rating doesn't make sense because its tier doesn't have enough support when considering the anti-feats and you want to rate it much higher with much less support? That doesn't make much sense.

I'm saying that if you're gonna be as arbitrary with the ratings as you are now, High 6-A is not a problem at all. We've got Tier 6 feats. What's the issue?

 

[CloverDragon03]

As an addendum about the Shadow Queen feat btw, the feat's being done as she possesses Peach's body so which form it scales to could go either way. In addition, the TTYD remake changes Goombella's tattle dialogue about Bonetail, yes, but this dialogue still exists which could be used for scaling:

The oldest sister of Hooktail. She's just bones now. She's incredibly tough... Maybe even the toughest?

 

[Planck69]

Reading through the thread, and High 6-A scaling is fine.

And as for the sun freezing feat, yeah you can call it an outlier or not, but it's a very simple statement in and of itself in my eyes. Neutral to it for now.

 

[Armorchompy]

You're cherrypicking, Armor. You're using this catch-all response to stop upgrade attempts but you don't even go all the way with it with how many Tier 9 things the Mario cast is threatened by. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't make sense at all with how you're going about it, and yet it can still be used to stonewall any opposition, and the supporters have known this for a while. That's why they gave up.

I do not have any more control over how a thread goes than any other thread mod on the forum. If my points made no sense it would have simply been overruled by enough people voting against it and yet this has not happened. It may happen some day, clearly some people don't view powerscaling the way I do but if it was just objectively stupid it would have never passed to begin with.

"Going all the way" in powerscaling is literally impossible. Fiction is not made to be 100% consistent. You cannot come to a solution that is objectively correct and claiming that I am objectively a hypocrite because by following my logic to its extreme Mario should be 9-B is incorrect not only because because there is a pretty nebulous amount of feats and anti-feats all across the range from there to mid tier 8 but because it is not something that should ever be followed to the extreme, ultimately power-scaling is a game of compromises, and I was OK with "since there is a decent amount of feats backing up this 6-C rating, let's go for it even though there are anti-feats disproving it" as a compromise. Whether you agree or not with that does not mean that the logic behind it was objectively fallacious, and it definitely does not mean that any proposal for a higher tier is automatically equally valid.

You didn't care about such accusations when you made the downgrade and dismissed the cosmic feats before, so why now?

I would have care about the accusations I just described because they would have been fair and correct. I did not care about the accusations of downplay that I did receive with how I did handle things because I do not believe that those were fair or correct.

I'm saying that if you're gonna be as arbitrary with the ratings as you are now, High 6-A is not a problem at all. We've got Tier 6 feats. What's the issue?

The issue is that the High 6-A calc is 216611 times higher than the 6-C one, it's like saying a 9-A feat is support for a 7-C rating, or like if my highest support for the 6-C rating was 7-C. I'm not being arbitrary and if you continue to fail the difference between the situation you're proposing and the one that already happened I frankly do not have the time or energy to waste trying to explain it to you again and again.

As an addendum about the Shadow Queen feat btw, the feat's being done as she possesses Peach's body so which form it scales to could go either way. In addition, the TTYD remake changes Goombella's tattle dialogue about Bonetail, yes, but this dialogue still exists which could be used for scaling:

The oldest sister of Hooktail. She's just bones now. She's incredibly tough... Maybe even the toughest?

This is fair. Admittedly "the toughest" could be argued to exclude the SQ, since to my understanding she's dead at this point, but fair nonetheless (I think, I have not played TTYD).