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Some Random One Piece CRT
- Thread starter KobsterHope07
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Outside of the TIERING and the Usopp Hody, how are the justifications?
Like for the WCI characters
Like for the WCI characters
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About Germa, are we really going to leave the siblings at unknown without the RSs? At least their durability is pretty much the same iirc, i think "unknown, likely H7A" is good enough for them since they have the same gene modifications (special powers aside) and had the same training since childhood.
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Sounds fair to me
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We see w/ Sanji that raid suit dura is far from the same dura as the base.
We can just say "comparable to Niji" then give them high 7-A ratings
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Hm? But isn't that what i said? I was talking about their base dura, not RS's dura.
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Sorry I misread you, nevermind then
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I'll go through the WCI characters soon.
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once again, everything looks nice to me.
Stefano4444
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Can anyone give me a recap of this entire CRT?
And also what exactly has been accepted, rejected and/or its still up to debate.
And also what exactly has been accepted, rejected and/or its still up to debate.
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Sandbox shows everything btw
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Some of the characters like Reiju are missing justifications.
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I'll get to that in a sec. Anyways, does the luffy, katakuri, and cracker scaling seem fine? We removed High 7-A+ dura from cracker and katakuri, and only added it to their ap, as well as for snakeman only being normal High 7-A. We also, made gear third for luffy High 7-A+ due to evenly matching katakuri with it in his awakening, when that same attack hurt snakeman when attempting to match it, and boundman scales above them both, so upscaling from gear third which is 4 gigatons, we upscale Boundman that fought kaido to 6-C (4.3 GT)
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I've fixed Reiju and gave her her justifications.
Do you have anyone else I should fix? Like you can give me a bunch of names and I'll work on em
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Some. of the justifications aren't actually missing, just lacking in context / explanations, like; "Superior to Carrot", "Should be comparable to Niji", "Comparable to Gladius", "Superior to Usopp's AP".
Examples from Pedro, Ichigji, Cavendish and Caeser Clown.
This isn't an Attack Potency feat for Franky.
Stronger compared to who specifically?
Orlumbus' Attack Potency shouldn't be scaling from his durability. That's not a justification. And why should be comparable to the others?
Giolla scaling to Large Mountain level and Buffalo is scaling to City level even though it is essentially the same feat.
Also, if Usopp's feat of knocking out a critically injured Buffalo is no longer valid, why is his feat of knocking out a critically injured Caeser Clown valid?
This isn't an AP justification for Brulee.
Mont-d'Or must be? According to what?
Examples from Pedro, Ichigji, Cavendish and Caeser Clown.
This isn't an Attack Potency feat for Franky.
Stronger compared to who specifically?
Orlumbus' Attack Potency shouldn't be scaling from his durability. That's not a justification. And why should be comparable to the others?
Giolla scaling to Large Mountain level and Buffalo is scaling to City level even though it is essentially the same feat.
Also, if Usopp's feat of knocking out a critically injured Buffalo is no longer valid, why is his feat of knocking out a critically injured Caeser Clown valid?
This isn't an AP justification for Brulee.
Mont-d'Or must be? According to what?
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I have slight issues with the scaling, only because a lot of justifications for specific tiers come from Haki... best example being when Cracker cut into Luffy's arm. As far as I'm aware, we only really see people hurting Luffy while using Haki (Cracker cutting Luffy's face is the only outlier, but at the same time, Luffy wasn't blocking with Haki, and as far as I remember, we typically accept BM Luffy's stats as including Haki for AP/Dura).
Shouldn't Cracker only get H7-A+ AP from when he's using Armament? Same should obviously apply to other characters who are only shown hurting Gear 4th Luffy with Haki strikes. This would include Katakuri since he's only ever shown harming Bound Man with his Power Mochi, which appears to use Haki unless I've been totally wrong about those arms being large versions of Edged Mochi.
Basically, characters like Cracker and Katakuri should instead look like "At least High 7-A (Cracker at least scaling to or above his soldiers, Katakuri for his current reasons), higher/High 7-A+ with Haki/Awakening (Cracker's feat of harming Bound-Man Luffy with his Haki imbued blade, and Katakuri for harming Bound Man with his Power Mochi)"
Shouldn't Cracker only get H7-A+ AP from when he's using Armament? Same should obviously apply to other characters who are only shown hurting Gear 4th Luffy with Haki strikes. This would include Katakuri since he's only ever shown harming Bound Man with his Power Mochi, which appears to use Haki unless I've been totally wrong about those arms being large versions of Edged Mochi.
Basically, characters like Cracker and Katakuri should instead look like "At least High 7-A (Cracker at least scaling to or above his soldiers, Katakuri for his current reasons), higher/High 7-A+ with Haki/Awakening (Cracker's feat of harming Bound-Man Luffy with his Haki imbued blade, and Katakuri for harming Bound Man with his Power Mochi)"
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did Cracker cut luffy in gear fourth? Link?
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Cracker uses Haki to cut into Luffy's Haki imbued arm, then scores a very small cut on Luffy's face without either of them using Haki.
Cracker's AP w/ out Haki is not proven to be comparable to where Gear 4th Luffy's Durability would be with Haki (and as a frequent reminder, his stats w/ Gear 4th currently go based off his AP/Dura with Haki).
In short: Cracker's AP (Haki) ~ Bound Man Luffy's Dura (Haki) >>/> Cracker's AP (Normal) ~ Bound Man Luffy's Dura (Normal) >/~ Base Luffy's Dura (w/ and w/out Haki) </~ Biscuit Soldier AP (w/ and w/out Haki)
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Boundman is already in haki tho
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We can't really know if both used haki or not (I think both used haki) since law cut vergo and we didn't see any black armament in law's sword... Either its invisible or used armament on his devil fruit.
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From what we can assume, Law simply overpowered Vergo. Haki has been regarded as a reliable method to circumvent the effects of the Devil Fruit, but despite this, it's been stated that certain characters do not have strong enough Haki to do this.
Best example being when Tashigi (confirmed to be using Haki) was still helpless against Law's power due to having less than sufficient levels of Haki. Same could be for Vergo, since we can't prove Law used Haki in that moment.
Could simply be used to argue Law's DF as being > Vergo's Haki.
Indeed, but without visual or verbal indicators (or instances where it's obvious, like when a Logia user bleeds), we can not assume someone is definitely using Haki.
Also, we see the aura/shockwave for Ryuo, and that's what Rayleigh uses in the second link provided.
He only has Hardening constantly active on certain parts of his body, not everywhere at once. We even see him use Haki on more of his body when protecting against certain attacks (Honey Pretzel in Tank-Man, and Doflamingo's Athlito in Bound-Man). He has usually suffered damage from attacks that hit him whilst he is not protecting himself with Haki.
- Keep in mind Doflamingo's comment about BM Luffy's power came after he took two Haki strikes head-on. We can only use this statement for when Luffy's covered in Haki as Doflamingo is never shown taking hits from BM Luffy without Haki (not to mention Luffy never attacks without Haki in this state for as long as we've seen).
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I guess this is true.
Wouldn't it be law's haki + DF > Vergo's haki? The same way luffy can overpower doflamingo in haki + DF but not in base, 2nd gear or 3rd gear
Isn't this Emission haki tho? Not really Ryuo?
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1) We don't have any evidence suggesting Law used Haki vs Vergo. In fact, we don't even know if Law can imbue objects with Haki as we never see him do it. So for now, Law DF > Vergo's Haki (Also, Haki users are most likely using a basic level of Haki on their bodies passively throughout each fight, but we don't separate that from base AP/Dura since there's no apparent difference, let alone a visual or verbal indicator 99% of the time).
- Also, Luffy overpowering Doflamingo in Base/Gear 2nd only happens whilst Doflamingo is at his weakest. He gradually begins to overwhelm Luffy during 782/783 as it's made apparent he is recovering over time. And we do also have to consider when they both clashed, they were using Buso and Haoshoku simultaneously, both likely stacking amps on top of their attacks. When using plain Armament, Luffy stopped being capable of harming Doflamingo during chapter 783 despite drawing blood in 782.
2) Emission Haki, yes. Ryuo, most likely (Not Goken/internal).
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Any thoughts about applying a "higher" rating for every Busoshoku user (particularly or perhaps exclusively for users of Hardening, Ryuo/Goken), as well as for users who have used Haoshoku in physical combat (Such as Luffy, Doflamingo, Katakuri, Kaido, Big Mom, Whitebeard, Roger, etc)?
It's clear that there's a near-drastic increase in power and durability for a lot of characters, and it would only be a minor change that would need no justifications unless there's an obvious tier-jump (such as Katakuri jumping up to a likely H7-A+ in AP w/ Power Mochi for being capable of harming Bound-Man Luffy... Also Cracker being able to do the same w/ Haki).
Essentially, for each character there is no apparent jump in tier, it would simply look like this--using Doflamingo as an example since he has other ratings presented:
"At least Large Mountain level himself (existing reasons), higher with Busoshoku and Haoshoku coating, higher with Awakening (existing reasons)"
For characters who have an apparent tier-jump such as Katakuri and Cracker, the following could apply, using Cracker as the example (Because I want to talk about Katakuri in a moment):
"At least Large Mountain level (existing reasons), Likely Large Mountain level+ with Busoshoku coating (Capable of drawing blood and causing pain when striking Bound Man Luffy's protected arm with his blade imbued with Haki)"
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Katakuri has some issues.
I believe people are ignoring the fact that Katakuri's physical power varies quite a bit between utilizing his DF and just his base physical capabilities. His base physical capabilities allow him to out-perform and overpower Gear 2nd Luffy simply enough, but almost everything above Standard Gear 2nd Luffy is typically overpowered by Katakuri using amp'd attack:
Basically, Katakuri Base > Gear 2nd Luffy, Katakuri Base (With Haki) > Gear 2nd Luffy (With Haki), Katakuri w/ DF amps + Haki > Gear 3rd + Haki Luffy, but < Bound Man Luffy (Edged Mochi losing outright to BM's power), Awakening Katakuri ~ Bound Man Luffy.
Katakuri would look like the following:
"At least Large Mountain level normally (Overwhelmed Dressrosa Arc Gear 2nd Luffy in several exchanges and proved to be his superior in power), higher with Busoshoku coating (Outmatched Gear 2nd Luffy's Hawk Gatling with his own imitation), Haoshoku coating, and standard Devil Fruit capabilities (Overpowered Dressrosa Arc Gear 3rd Luffy's Elephant Gun with ease. Later competed evenly with Snake Man Luffy and caused pain when clashing fists with him), At least Large Mountain level with Mole (Capable of inflicting grievous wounds to both Luffy and himself with one strike each), likely Large Mountain level+ with Awakening (Capable of dealing harm to Dressrosa Arc Bound Man Luffy with his Power Mochi, and he is considered the strongest of the Three Sweet Commanders, suggesting his supremacy over Cracker)"
Thoughts?
It's clear that there's a near-drastic increase in power and durability for a lot of characters, and it would only be a minor change that would need no justifications unless there's an obvious tier-jump (such as Katakuri jumping up to a likely H7-A+ in AP w/ Power Mochi for being capable of harming Bound-Man Luffy... Also Cracker being able to do the same w/ Haki).
Essentially, for each character there is no apparent jump in tier, it would simply look like this--using Doflamingo as an example since he has other ratings presented:
"At least Large Mountain level himself (existing reasons), higher with Busoshoku and Haoshoku coating, higher with Awakening (existing reasons)"
For characters who have an apparent tier-jump such as Katakuri and Cracker, the following could apply, using Cracker as the example (Because I want to talk about Katakuri in a moment):
"At least Large Mountain level (existing reasons), Likely Large Mountain level+ with Busoshoku coating (Capable of drawing blood and causing pain when striking Bound Man Luffy's protected arm with his blade imbued with Haki)"
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Katakuri has some issues.
I believe people are ignoring the fact that Katakuri's physical power varies quite a bit between utilizing his DF and just his base physical capabilities. His base physical capabilities allow him to out-perform and overpower Gear 2nd Luffy simply enough, but almost everything above Standard Gear 2nd Luffy is typically overpowered by Katakuri using amp'd attack:
- Aforementioned feat of Base Katakuri overwhelming Gear 2nd Luffy and harming him. This would easily be the main justification for Katakuri's Base AP.
- Katakuri watches and mimics Luffy's Elephant Gun, overpowering Gear 3rd and injuring Luffy in the process.
- Similarly, Katakuri's Edged Mochi allows him to easily overpower Luffy's Haki imbued strikes. This and the above feat could be justifications for Katakuri's AP utilizing his standard DF Capabilities and Haki being superior to Luffy's Gear 3rd + Haki attacks (Obviously before Luffy begins to evolve). There are quite a few other examples to pull.
- One strike rips through Luffy's side, dealing potentially lethal damage
- Katakuri uses it to wound himself in a similar fashion
Basically, Katakuri Base > Gear 2nd Luffy, Katakuri Base (With Haki) > Gear 2nd Luffy (With Haki), Katakuri w/ DF amps + Haki > Gear 3rd + Haki Luffy, but < Bound Man Luffy (Edged Mochi losing outright to BM's power), Awakening Katakuri ~ Bound Man Luffy.
- Also keep in mind Katakuri matched Luffy's Red Hawk with DF amp.
Katakuri would look like the following:
"At least Large Mountain level normally (Overwhelmed Dressrosa Arc Gear 2nd Luffy in several exchanges and proved to be his superior in power), higher with Busoshoku coating (Outmatched Gear 2nd Luffy's Hawk Gatling with his own imitation), Haoshoku coating, and standard Devil Fruit capabilities (Overpowered Dressrosa Arc Gear 3rd Luffy's Elephant Gun with ease. Later competed evenly with Snake Man Luffy and caused pain when clashing fists with him), At least Large Mountain level with Mole (Capable of inflicting grievous wounds to both Luffy and himself with one strike each), likely Large Mountain level+ with Awakening (Capable of dealing harm to Dressrosa Arc Bound Man Luffy with his Power Mochi, and he is considered the strongest of the Three Sweet Commanders, suggesting his supremacy over Cracker)"
Thoughts?
(that will be little tricky I think)
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Eminiteable
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Current one in the sandbox is fine imo, I thought of suggesting mole getting it's own rating but decided against it as there's nothing to suggest it being stronger than Katakuri's regular attacks, only more lethal as it is a weapon.
Also why are you giving Katakuri Haoshoku Coating? An ability he isn't stated to or implied to have?
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Ignoring the fact that Kata's is way too long for a single key and we haven't start to split up w/ Haki and w/out Haki stats, here's my issue.
Why do Cracker and Kata get likely?
We've already established here that Cracker cutting into Luffy is a valid feat.
We haven't even accepted them getting Haoshoku Coating, so that's that.
Mole just cuts. It's like giving a character higher ratings with knives, it's redundant.
Most I'd accept is
Why do Cracker and Kata get likely?
We've already established here that Cracker cutting into Luffy is a valid feat.
That's that.
We haven't even accepted them getting Haoshoku Coating, so that's that.
Mole just cuts. It's like giving a character higher ratings with knives, it's redundant.
Most I'd accept is
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I agree with tempest.
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Just making this clear incase you guys are confused
G4th Boundman > G3rd > G4th Snakeman
G4th Boundman > G3rd > G4th Snakeman
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I thought to point out the fact that Haoshoku users we've seen have used it in combat, and we do see it in occasional clashes with the whole black-lightning vfx.
I didn't know the general opinion on if we should consider Haoshoku as an AP boost for them or not.
I only used the word "coating" for the lack of any other better word I could think of.
That was a mistake and also a habit for when I was discussing the scaling in other threads. Can just omit that word if you so choose.
Agreed
Eminiteable
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Haoshoku Coating which we've seen Kaido, Big Mom and Luffy use is purely dependent on them and they don't require clashing with another conqueor to use this power, we know it grants them an AP boost when doing it.
For the case of conqueor's clashing or any other clash where lightning is shown (like Sanji vs King) we don't have information to suggest it's anything more than a visual effect, so we can't say it's an AP boost like Kaido. It also only seems to occur when two users of the same haki clash and honestly to me that makes it kind of redundant to mention on the profiles and is better off just mentioning on the haki page.
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I though the "zap" from Sanji vs King was just a visual indicator of Sanji's leg struggling/hurting under pressure.
The Haoshoku thing was just a suggestion that it's also an AP boost for the characters I mentioned. I merely included it. It can be removed if that's preferable.
- Just thought people would constantly bring up Luffy clashing evenly with Doffy as justification for Gear 2nd Luffy = Doffy physically + haki. It's only a minor inconvenience, though
Eminiteable
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Look like lightning sparks from a clash to me.
I see, I don't think that should be an issue since based off the sandbox Gear 2nd Luffy wouldn't scale too Doffy at all (nor should he considering his attacks are considered light by Doflamingo).
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Honestly, I think this CRT should be wrapped up asap, since we will have to tackle the new scaling of yonko getting downgraded to baseline 6-B, and admirals getting downgraded to Low 6-B, so what should we do here?
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