Some questions about heaven's size in Touhou

[Htrung2000hn]

In Suika's profile, it's said that the Heaven should be comparable, if not superior to Hell. Can someone give me more explanation about this? Is Heaven actually that big?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Both Hell and the Netherworld are around this size. Hell was directly stated to be around 200,000 kilometers, which is larger than Jupiter btw, and the Netherworld was stated to be far, far larger than Hell.

Heaven should logically be at least comparable, as unlike the Netherworld or Hell, it's purpose is to have an increasingly larger amount of permanent inhabitants, compared to the previous twos, who only hosts temporary visitors.

The only other measurement for Heaven we have would make it larger than the universe, but let's not go into that territory.

 

[Htrung2000hn]

Both Hell and the Netherworld are around this size. Hell was directly stated to be around 200,000 kilometers, which is larger than Jupiter btw, and the Netherworld was stated to be far, far larger than Hell.
Heaven should logically be at least comparable, as unlike the Netherworld or Hell, it's purpose is to have an increasingly larger amount of permanent inhabitants, compared to the previous twos, who only hosts temporary visitors.

The only other measurement for Heaven we have would make it larger than the universe, but let's not go into that territory.

Alright, thank

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

No problems

 

[Ren_Fujii]

Doesn't Amitabha live in heaven?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

He lives in "Paradise", which seems to be treated differently than the Heaven with Suika and Tenshi. I'd say it's more likely that Amitabha lives in the Lunar Capital but eh.

 

[Ren_Fujii]

Paradise and Heaven are the same thing, like Liberty and Freedom.

what is the kanji they use in the original japanese? do they call the "paradise" and "heaven" places in a different way?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

As far as I know, yes the Kanji for Heaven and Paradise is different. And as far as I know, only this particular line uses Paradise in a literal way.

 

[Ren_Fujii]

what about the fact that Marisa can push 2 large planets away? in that line the kanji used is "hoshi" that can mean both Planet and Star, Hoshi is more frequently used to mean Star.

"õ║îÒüñÒü«ÕñºÒüìÒü¬µâæÒéÅÒüøÒéïµÿƒÒüîÒÇüÕ╝òÒüìÞúéÒüïÒéîÒéïÒü╗Òü®Òü«Õ░ŵâæµÿƒÕ©»ÒÇé

Ú¡öþÉåµ▓ÖÒü«Õç║ÒüÖµÿƒÒü»ÒÇüµ╝½þö╗µÿƒÒüáÒüæÒü®ÒÇé"

in english it is translated

"Asteroid belt that can put two large planets (Hoshi µÿƒ) away.

The stars (Hoshi µÿƒ) Marisa shoots look like something out of a comic, though."

it doesn't make sense, 'cause Hoshi µÿƒ is used 2 times the first time they translated it "Planets" and the second time they translated it "Stars"

if i write Planet in google translator the result is "wakusei" if i write Star the result is "hoshi"

 

[Andykhang]

That's definitively false, IMO. Marisa never shown any other feat that's even close to such, and she wouldn't enter human cagetory if she is. But the hype train come and go and this is the result.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

First off: Andy your logic makes no sense.

Secondly, 5-A is more consistent with what we have been shown than High 4-C. And if I'm not wrong, it does use 惑星, which is planet.

 

[Andykhang]

I meant to said about the "Marisa can control planet" fact, not the wording one, sorry to get you confuse. Just want to said that Marisa's highest potential feat aside from that planet thing is the Master Spark, and that is only Mountain as best. There's literally too much of a gap between her shown feat, and she didn't have justification for it like Eirin being a goddess of knowledge or Suika being one of the Great Evil or Yukari being Yukari, instead having more proof to be a relatively normal human, with strength closer to Alice and Patchouli. (the human thing is abit wrong though, I admit) (also sorry for this long paragraph)

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You do know even regular humans are 6-C in Touhou, right? And that a vast majority of 5-A characters have no feats even coming close to that, right? Marisa having a 7-A/Low 6-B feat doesn't matter at all here.

 

[Andykhang]

That's why I said justification, and you do realize the different between tier 6 and "planet control" right? You wouldn't reasonably sure that normal human (or even normal Youkai) could control planet, even in Gensokyo, and Marisa, from what I see, only veer abit farther into that, closer to the like of Alice and Patchouli. You also do realize that most of the tier 5-A in Touhou is due to power-scaling, a fact that is incredibly questionable due to the nature of the verse itself, or having enough justification from what I said earlier that Marisa incredibly lack?

Then again, this is only my opinion, as far as I can see. You do what you guy do with this Wiki anyway, and I cannot care enough, or have enough backing to change that.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"Planet control"? You could destroy most of a planet overtime with only 6-C AP. I can't even debunk your post. I don't understand it nor your logic.

 

[Andykhang]

...You do realize tier 6-C is "Island" at best right? That's like saying a storm of meteor could destroy most of the planet overtime, providing that you can gather enough to destroy a planet. And even then, destroying planet have nothing to do with controlling it, which is a different feat together, that require haxx.

It's your logic that I can't understand. Are you okay lately, Saikou?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

And almost no one in 5-A can "control" the Earth. What even is your argument?

 

[Andykhang]

...Now you make even less sense. If not even tier 5-A could do it, then how do you expect Marisa, of all people, to do it? None of her magic even reach this high aside from that single line of description from that singular spell card that never confirm again, that's supposed to point toward it, and that kind of feat is only done by people that are already god, or god-like in the first place (Ex: Eirin).

You are essentially making a claim that she could control planet, by saying that no one, in her verse, around her tier can. That's not a valid argument here. Calm down abit, I see this thread make less sense overtime here so cool your head abit and then let take it from the top again: I'm refuting the claim that Marisa could control planet, based on the fact that none of her other canon source even point toward that, it's heavily contradict the fact that she's a relatively normal human, even counting on the power-scaling of human around her (you also don't imagine fairy could control planet to move up or down right?), and that singular line of comment on that spell card could also be taken as that: a comment, stating a fact about the asteroid belt (that I now can't even find it anymore, so it's essentially trying to prove on something that doesn't exist).

Edit: Never mind, found it. And you do realize that the two planet mention there are probably the 2 real life planet of Mar and Jupiter right, judging from the fact that the following comment on Lunatic is this:

An asteroid belt attack that puts Meteo to shame.

Still, it looks so thin. It didn't even hit Voyager (of course).

- Magic Space "Asteroid Belt"- Lunatic (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Imperishable_Night:_Stage_4B_Spell_Cards)

 

[Promestein]

Moving planets typically yields such high results that 5-A is the result.

5-A characters can't necessarily control planets - a character's Tier only reflects the level of durability they can injure, not necessarily their raw destructive power.

Andy, Saikou is perfectly calm.

 

[Andykhang]

...Thank you for clarify that.

Still, the fact that this spell card is the only proof for that feat alone, without justification or canon backing and is rely heavily on interpreptation kinda struct my nerve on that. It's not a solid proof, in my view, that's get to put on her current feat from hype alone, as I can remember.

 

[Promestein]

She's scaled to the other 5-A feats in the verse as well, which makes sense.

 

[Andykhang]

What other 5-A feats, may I ask?

 

[Ren_Fujii]

which tier would Yukari be if Akyuu's statement wasn't an outlier?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It's not an outlier; it's just too vague to be able to assume she can truly affect the entire setting.

Assuming Akyuu's statement is 100% true and refers really to the entire setting, she'd be High 3-A at worse and High 1-C at best.

 

[Bombzilla]

So possible Yukari upgrade? Or no?

 

[ALRF]

No.

For now owo

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well we just did bump Yukari to High 4-C

But Yukari being anywhere near High 3-A is ridiculous. There is a reason why there is a note regarding Akyuu's statement on Yukari's profile.

 

[Bombzilla]

Ah, I see. But it's funny how some people still take things like that as literal, and make characters way higher then they should be.cough cough outerversal Touhou cough cough

 

[ALRF]

It will come one day.


Or maybe it won't

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Nevah

 

[ALRF]

Mayb :>

 

[Bombzilla]

Hopfully it won't. I mean, if it did, It would cause soo much chaos and salt that it wouldn't be funny. And most likely the people who attack us for not having it will rub it in our face and all of our favorite verses would have to bow down to Yukari and characters that are above her. I dont want that to happen. Lets keep it this way.

 

[Udlmaster]

That actually sounds worse, you'd choose ignorance for fear of your favourite verses being beaten? That's a pretty piss poor choice to make.

 

[Bombzilla]

That last part was kind of a joke, but ok. And this is assuming that outerversal Touhou even becomes a thing. And yes, people would be mad, and I'm pretty sure if your favorite verses got soloed by a verse that has a bunch of small anime girls in it, you would be kinda upset and shocked as well. We all have some kind of bias towards verses we like. Facts. And it's not like I would be super upset or something, I never really implied or said that.

 

[Ren_Fujii]

Zun said that maybe Byakuren and

Shinki are friends, does this imply that Shinki still exists and the Makai from pc-98 and the windows one are the same? if it does, then every character from PC98 should be upgraded to High 3-A or Low 2-C, due to the Windows Makai being infinite in size.

 

[Promestein]

Don't think UFO actually has canon spell comments

Either way we can't really base such a big upgrade off such an offhand comment.

 

[ALRF]

Tbh, it looks vague

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

What Prom said. UFO Spell Cards comments aren't canon. + It'd be an outlier anyway.

 

[Udlmaster]

I would love to see an upgrade like that, I do agree with Promestein and ALRF, it is rather Vague and a comment as well, I believe we'd have to wait and get a little more evidence to prove it's the same Shiniki from the PC-98 version, after all, Z.U.N may have changed her story up?

 

[Wish888]