Some of Xeno Goku resistances

[Ricsi-viragosi]

If it's purely about strength, then it's kind of missing the hax part of haxes, you know? If all it takes to resist the stuff is AP then it was already said how we treat the stuff, I'm sure.

 

[Dragomer]

Can we, like, calm the hell down here and stop coming for each others throats here guys? I get that this debate is getting heated but theres 0 reason or excuse for anyone here to be uncivilized when discussing this.

It's a bit hard to be civilised when i keep having throwaway account shit talk me on discord and showing me screenshot of people shit talking me on the unnofficial VSBW discord behind my back, it make it very hard to believe the other side is arguing on good faith and aren't acting like all the points addressed by me and other people didn't happen because they don't actualy want to argue.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Dragomer That is incorrect, Cal did not say anything about DB being privileged on either thread until you began accusing him of being salty.

You're also only proving my point by attacking with strawmans. No, "PIS" was not the only reason given against the resistances. Characters do not get resistance to hax just by being comparable or someone that did resist the hax, as hax bypasses AP. If the ability doesn't work on stronger opponents, then that's a weakness of said ability.

 

[Dragomer]

The multiple other threads say otherwise.

You're not helping your point by complaining about strawman and then immediatly arguing against a strawman, showing clearly you haven't actualy read anything we said and just want the resistance gone for the hell of it.

They don't get the resistance by being comparable in AP, they are getting the resistance by having the same thing that allowed the hax to be resisted before but better.

 

[Dragomer]

If it's purely about strength, then it's kind of missing the hax part of haxes, you know? If all it takes to resist the stuff is AP then it was already said how we treat the stuff, I'm sure.

.....did you even read the actual discussion ?

It isn't resisted through AP, it is resisted by using ki, we only scale using AP because it's the easiest metric to say who has a better or equal ki, we could measure by speed, durability or range if you want, it's same, it just get less clear who'd scale or not.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Litteraly 'i don't know, PIS' is basicaly the last bastion of defense against 'why would they say they can't beat a character when by your logic they have an ability that one shot them and can be spammed'.

This is what you wrote, word for word, while ignoring things like characters being millions of times faster and stronger.

And even then, PIS isn't exactly wrong. Bu u barely uses the ability in Canon, and there's no proof hald the characters he fought could resist the thing even if it can be resisted with AP.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

They don't get the resistance by being comparable in AP, they are getting the resistance by having the same thing that allowed the hax to be resisted before but better.

Could you provide hard proof, or quote it if it already was, instead of just saying that?

Because just saying that without hard proof makes it nothing more than headcanon.

 

[Dragomer]

I doubt there is any case of that happening in the exemples i was arguing about with Cal.

PIS is very wrong if you try and say he can Candy Beam Zeno.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

Ricsi is providing the most logical conclusions here, tbh.

As I recall, Beerus couldn't actually see Hit in Time Skip, either...

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Dragomer I don't care about what went on in other threads. You don't get the excuse to cause trouble on this one just because of your personal gripes with certain users.

I have payed attention to both sides of the argument and the people against the resistances are the ones making sense as they aren't the ones giving characters abilties they haven't demonstrated.

 

[Dragomer]

@Dragomer I don't care about what went on in other threads. You don't get the excuse to cause trouble on this one just because of your personal gripes with certain users.
I have payed attention to both sides of the argument and the people against the resistance are the ones making sense as they aren't giving characters abilties they haven't demonstrated.

The threads are what led to this one and you cared very much 6 seconds ago so very credible.

This very thread is because of Cal's personal grip.

No, you didn't, you immediatly went 'remove it' and just demonstrated 5 seconds ago you didn't read anything as you attack your strawman.

Except it's the exact opposite because here you're basiclay giving Buu the ability to solo DBH which he never demonstrated.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Look, I will start deleting comments by now. All I want is quotes and proof for why resistances scale with ki.

It doesn't matter if Cal is jacking off over this downgrade, or if people hate DB. Them being biased doesn't make them wrong, unless you prove it.

 

[ArmBill]

Besides a few outlier characters, everyone in Dragonball uses Ki as their source of power. So if they can flex their muscles and overcome a hax, then theres no reason others with the same power set and at a similar or higher power couldn't. The weakness of the hax argument dosen't make sense, all these abilities have properties of bypassing durability such as transmuting your body into candy and what not. No normal body could guard against that. Plus power in Dragonball will always be different than other verses. So it's not like you can say they can overcome said ability with power since it would be a massive assumption to say they could in that verse without proper evidence. Honestly it's all just simple deductive reasoning.

 

[Dragomer]

Them being biased matters a lot because no ammount of evidence will satisfy someone arguing in bad faith.

It was proved time and time again by multiple people on this thread, just read the thread.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

@ArmBill That is... purely headcanon. Ki granting resistance is not something occam's razor will without actual proof to it.

If proof is lacking for the ki thing, then we either say the hax is not hax or that people don't resist it without proof. Buu is not solo'ing regardless against enemies millions of times faster and stronger, so "giving Buu the ability to solo the verse" is not a problem her.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

So, I'd like to point out a major flaw in this "Power > hax" theory in Dragon Ball.

Beerus could not see what Hit was doing in Time Skip during the Universe 6 arc in the anime of Super. Beerus was vastly stronger than either of them, so why should he have been affected?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

This thread is about weather resistance has to stay, everything else will be deleted. And that's it, I am not deleting arguments I disagree with. If you feel I am abusing my power you can report me.

So then, as I asked above, Quote the part that proves your point above.

 

[Omegas03]

I guess Occam's razor absolutely helps your point by assuming that Xeno Trunks and Vegito have some unexplained special physical condition that Xeno Goku or stronger saiyans don't have somehow and can help them resist Transmutation or other hax.

Y'all are really obsessed with hax.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Dragomer "Except it's the exact opposite because here you're basiclay giving Buu the ability to solo DBH which he never demonstrated."

You say that DB hax is resisted though Ki, which more Ki does equal more strength but also claim that it doesn't have a weakness of not working against stronger opponents. So which is it? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[ArmBill]

@Ricsi it's not headcanon? We have statements and feats of characters overcoming an ability with power. These characters use Ki, there's nothing else you can connect there for their power. Plus I'm pretty sure for mutiple of them they said Ki instead of power. Ethier way it shouldn't matter. Like I said its simple deductive reasoning, just connect the info the series gives you.

@Stoned Why would Beerus raise his ki to the point of resisting it? Hes just watching the tournament.

@shadow it wouldnt have the weakness outside the verse is what I meant. Then I listed the reasons.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

So the weakness would only apply in-verse? That's the epitome of cherrypicking.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

It's a bit hard to be civilised when i keep having throwaway account shit talk me on discord and showing me screenshot of people shit talking me on the unnofficial VSBW discord behind my back, it make it very hard to believe the other side is arguing on good faith and aren't acting like all the points addressed by me and other people didn't happen because they don't actualy want to argue.

I don't know about other people, but I have nothing against you or the others that agree with you. I just disagree of "hax scaling" because of ki. At most it will give them limited resistance to the ability in their own verse (or with others where hax is treated the same as Dragon Ball)

 

[Planck69]

JFC, this entire thread.

I'm with Cal here. If he doesn't showcase resistances or possess a trait that allows im to resist it then no amount of headcanon should warrant those resistances being on their pages. And what the hell is this logic of "muh,if he couldn't resist X then Y could solo the verse"? That's the writer's problem not ours. If power meant resisting an ability then it being considered hax is ridiculously pointless.

And accusing other users of being biased as a prop for your argument is a textbook Poising the Well fallacy...

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Then I want you to give those statements and feats. Or quote them.

 

[ArmBill]

@shadow it would only be a "weakness" in verse cause people can overcome hax with their power. The wording isnt the important factor. It's how it all delivers itself.

 

[Planck69]

How about we actually post the scans and statements of resistance huh? I don't even care if Xenoku keeps or loses his resistances, this should just be resolved.

 

[PsychoWarper]

@Stoned Why would Beerus raise his ki to the point of resisting it? Hes just watching the tournament.

Wouldnt this mean that their reistences arnt passive and they have the actively raise their Ki to resist something? Cause that seems like a major weakness.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@ArmBill Then that would be a weakness of the hax. The whole point of hax resistance is that you can't resist it just by being stronger.

 

[ArmBill]

@Ric During the hit fight when goku moved in the time skip for the first time he said something along the lines of "my power has over come your time skip". Same thing in the Vegeta vs Toppo fight. Vegeta says I'll give you a attack too powerful to destroy. Then with Vegito in the dizenchuu it says something along the lines of "Vegito displays overwhelming power, even able to keep his power when turned into candy. N

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

@Ric During the hit fight when goku moved in the time skip for the first time he said something along the lines of "my power has over come your time skip". Same thing in the Vegeta vs Toppo fight. Vegeta says I'll give you a attack too powerful to destroy. Then with Vegito in the dizenchuu it says something along the lines of "Vegito displays overwhelming power, even able to keep his power when turned into candy. N

And power an ki are not synonims.

Nor is "too poweful".

Both of those can easily be said to be about... power. And saying that "this magic doesn't work on stronger peeps" is no less or more reasonable than saying "this magic energy resist all this stuff".

 

[Planck69]

-snip-

Ergo, a character from another verse who's more powerful than any of them but has never shown any sort of resistance in his own setting would be able to resist this. In that case why don't we just give resistance to EE to everyone above 2-C inclusive?

See what's wrong with that?

 

[ArmBill]

@psyc Characters can hold back their power, but I dont remember what your saying too well since I haven't watched it in a while, I'm just going by your description. But most these characters are on guard anyways so it doesn't matter that much.

@Shadow There isnt any law like that to hax Resistances. This notion you're going on about can be denied or accepted by a series, which Dragonball has shown to implement.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

@Ric During the hit fight when goku moved in the time skip for the first time he said something along the lines of "my power has over come your time skip". Same thing in the Vegeta vs Toppo fight. Vegeta says I'll give you a attack too powerful to destroy. Then with Vegito in the dizenchuu it says something along the lines of "Vegito displays overwhelming power, even able to keep his power when turned into candy. N

This is just a weakness of the haxes. If the hax can only affect weaker characters it's a weakness of said hax. Also, it just means that if hax can be overcome by powering up, then it's applies too

 

[ArmBill]

@ricsi They're synonyms in Dragonball because the more Ki you have the more power you have.

@Plan Because they never showed the resistance in verse or have anything implying more power = had resistances. It seems like yall are ignoring my main points.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

@ricsi They're synonyms in Dragonball because the more Ki you have the more power you have.

And yet that still doesn't mean ki=resistance. In-fact, that seems the most blatant ap>"hax" that can be. Which means it isn't hax after a certain power gap.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@ArmBill If an ability is explicitly shown not to work against stronger opponents, it doesn't work on stronger opponents. To cherrypick that to say it would only work with characters in-verse and not against stronger characters from other verses comes off as simply showing favoritism.

 

[ArmBill]

@Gilad Like I said, these abilites have properties of bypassing durability. Such as skipping time, normal power wouldnt let you moved in skipped time. These characters have shown that with immense power(ki) they bypass the abilites. This isnt any simple thing you apply to another verse without evidence. Since we don't know if in the other verse if they can bypass hax with power.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

Even a casual Beerus is infinitely above Hit, though. Why would Beerus be affected by it, at any point in time, if it's just more ki = resistance?

 

[Planck69]

@ricsi They're synonyms in Dragonball because the more Ki you have the more power you have.
@Plan Because they never showed the resistance in verse or have anything implying more power = had resistances. It seems like yall are ignoring my main points.

Not really. In this very post you agree that Power and Ki are synonymous. And again;

During the hit fight when goku moved in the time skip for the first time he said something along the lines of "my power has over come your time skip". Same thing in the Vegeta vs Toppo fight. Vegeta says I'll give you a attack too powerful to destroy. Then with Vegito in the dizenchuu it says something along the lines of "Vegito displays overwhelming power, even able to keep his power when turned into candy.

You yourself affirm that characters with higher Ki can negate or overcome hax. As per verse equalization, more powerful characters from different franchises would have far more Ki naturally (without the caveat of having to power up). So tell me, why wouldn't they get resistance despite not showing resistance in their own verse?

 

[ArmBill]

@Ricsi it still has the properties of bypassing durability. Skipping time, etc is not something normal power would bypass. So it still has the same effect, but the character ki negates its effect on them.

@shadow I'm not showing favoritism though, its just using deductive reasoning to come to conclusion that the character who resisted the hax used ki to do so therefore other who are akin to that can as well. Other verses dont have the same powerset.