So Long 2-B Mario... (Potentially BIG downgrade for SPM feats)

[Antvasima]

So what should we use as a tier here then, 2-C or 2-B?

Can somebody write a tally of which staff members here that support what, please?

Perhaps it would be best if somebody writes a list of all the staff members who have responded in this thread previously, so I can send a notification to them?

 

[GyroNutz]

These links aren't working for me, not sure if anyone else is having the same issue.

 

[Antvasima]

They work fine for me at least, but I have to switch my VPN location to the United States in order to watch many comic book scans on Imgur currently, likely due to the European Union's stricter copyright rules.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

These links aren't working for me, not sure if anyone else is having the same issue.

They work for me

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

They work for me

Welp nevermind as soon as I said that its not working

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Maybe it is a location-related issue then, given that it concerns screencaptures from Nintendo games. I don't know for which areas that Nintendo and various anime companies have most lobbied for getting viewing access restricted for that kind of content.

 

[Eficiente]

Note that when we link stuff in Imgur and that's shown in a comment, it can send to it with a last "#emdAvOf/something" that shouldn't be there and needs to be removed. Other times it has happened that it sends to Imgur but it's all in black and you need to copy the link and use it in another tab, it's weird.

 

[Mephistus]

These links aren't working for me, not sure if anyone else is having the same issue.

Huh. Could be a case of the forum linking it with a #someletters after and that gumming it up. They work on my end for mobile and computer.

I'll try to manually link stuff then. Try clicking this link and this link? Refreshing the page for the links might also fix the problem too.


EDIT: Here is additionally some translated dialogue here that I have come across where it is said "any world is in danger", according to what the main characters are aware of when asked.



Here is the direct link in case this doesn't show up.

 

[Mephistus]

Can somebody post the full Super Paper Mario Prima Strategy Guide btw? I can only find online some other guide that vaguely says that the universe will be destroyed.

Super Paper Mario Prima Strategy Guide:

Nintendo Guidebooks : Nintendo : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The PDF guidebooks in this archive include - Animal Crossing - City Folk Prima Official GuideAnimal Crossing - Official Player's GuideAnimal Crossing -...

archive.org

Super Paper Mario The Official Nintendo Player's Guide:

Nintendo Guidebooks : Nintendo : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The PDF guidebooks in this archive include - Animal Crossing - City Folk Prima Official GuideAnimal Crossing - Official Player's GuideAnimal Crossing -...

archive.org

Note that these are technically based upon the English version, even if they did consult Nintendo.

The official Nintendo Japanese website for the Japanese version of Super Paper Mario has these 4 guidebooks advertised for the game but I don't believe the full scans of any of these books are available on the internet:

スーパーペーパーマリオ：攻略本情報

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, does anybody here know an alternative in order to help Gyro? Perhaps the screencaptures can be uploaded to the wiki and added to a blog post together with the translations, for example?

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps it would be best if somebody writes a list of all the staff members who have responded in this thread previously, so I can send a notification to them?

There is also this issue...

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

These links aren't working for me, not sure if anyone else is having the same issue.

That's just how posting Imgur albums on this forum works; it doesn't really show anything until you refresh the page; whether Alt+F5 or highlighting URL in the toolbar and pushing enter.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Medeus.

 

[Eficiente]

Super Paper Mario Prima Strategy Guide:

Nintendo Guidebooks : Nintendo : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The PDF guidebooks in this archive include - Animal Crossing - City Folk Prima Official GuideAnimal Crossing - Official Player's GuideAnimal Crossing -...

archive.org

Let's see, on top what I pointed out before we have

• Page 5 "save the universe" "the world - all worlds" "save the dimensions", the page before being the one that pointed out the worlds in the game being dimensions.
• Page 6 "Bleck could end the universe by himself" (in context w/o team work), "determined to destroy all worlds so he could create new ones for his own" "stop his drive to end the universe?"
• Other pages refer to the worlds as dimensions
• Page 17 "the town of Flipside—a strange city that exists between the tapestry of dimensions that make up the known universe." [This couldn't possibly have been "the known universes (all of them)" in Jap., in the other cases things were "simply" "extremely unlikely to be plural" when they said universe, here it is objective]
• Page 48 "...and drop some silly dialogue that’s the perfect sideshow to Count Block’s decidedly more serious plot to destroy the universe."
• Page 157 "Maybe if Tippi can reach the count in time, she can remind him that there are still things worth saving in this universe. If not, then all hope is lost and all of the dimensions will collapse into Void, putting a final underline beneath the dreaded words: “game over.”"

So more of the same really, we already knew this guides goes against this targeting all universes in the multiverse, if we now have no excuses for it.

Super Paper Mario The Official Nintendo Player's Guide:

Nintendo Guidebooks : Nintendo : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The PDF guidebooks in this archive include - Animal Crossing - City Folk Prima Official GuideAnimal Crossing - Official Player's GuideAnimal Crossing -...

archive.org

As said before, page 5 does say "Once again, the fate of the known universe rests on the rounded shoulders of a mute plumber." and page 126 says "Even as a massive pixelated vortex begins to swallow the universe, who would believe that Mario will fail? I mean, come on.", but this is technically less objective.

Note that these are technically based upon the English version, even if they did consult Nintendo.

Yes. I don't give that more value than the texts the Engish version of the game itself has.

The official Nintendo Japanese website for the Japanese version of Super Paper Mario has these 4 guidebooks advertised for the game but I don't believe the full scans of any of these books are available on the internet:

スーパーペーパーマリオ：攻略本情報

Well, this 2 guides are in English, and that page is in Jap., it makes perfect sense to not show them. That's not something you do and some people may buy them w/o speaking English.

----

Also, added to what I said before about how the texts in the English version of the game don't necessarily mean 2-B, there is even stuff that supports 2-C: "Heroes... Trying to save these pathetic old worlds.", "Let's save all these worlds from destruction!"; which this could technically refer to all the worlds in the multiverse, but it makes more sense in context to mean the worlds traveled that we see. And the last part of Bleck's made up plan varies between making "a new world" or "new worlds" from the dimensions destroyed, his minions doing the former at the end as of course they would not change all the universes in the multiverse, that's made up from what the game presents, this guys are only gonna stay in the universe shown in the game and make that 1 universe better.

That's about all that needed to be said.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

There is also this issue...

Dunno why nobody's replied to you yet, but to be safe I'm going to include everyone including thread moderators, not including supporters though:

QuasiYuri
Eficiente
AKM-Sama (I believe they were also in favor of OP)
GyroNutz
Executor_N0
DarkDragonMedeus
Matthew_Schroeder (appears to be a retired mod of some kind, I know you guys still value their opinions though)

This seems to be everyone that's replied so far. Hope this helps.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Kirbonic and Eficiente.

@QuasiYuri @AKM sama @GyroNutz @Executor_N0 @DarkDragonMedeus @Matthew_Schroeder

What do you think that we should do here exactly? Should we go with Eficiente's point by point evaluation in his last post above?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still disagree with Efficiente but should explain soon now.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Vietthai96]

Just passing by, what about At least 2-C, possibly 2-B. I looking through some of the scans and arguments.
1. About scan, most of them even in English or Japanese using a very vague context like destroy the worlds, threaten the universes, etc...with no exact timeframe was given, the power was not stated very clear for us to know that the entire cosmology/multiverse going to blow up in a short time, or it is overtime. So the lowest interpretation is 2-C, the highest interpretation is 2-B
2. About arguments, sure all verse supporters will want to use the high end which is 2-B and those against will surely want 2-C. However all of the argument failed to brought out why it should be either 2-C or 2-B due to the vagueness of all statements

So my conclusion to this as a neutral party is At least 2-C, possibly 2-B. The reason is from the narrative standpoint i can understand it is 2-B, however the all the statements itself doesn't exactly point to 2-B thus it is baseless to dismiss all 2-C interpretation, and narrative argument was never always being the main arguments, all the time it should be used as supporting arguments. So leave us in a gray, in-between area, so a compromise solution with at least 2-C, possibly 2-B is the only thing i can propose. My comment is hardly matter anyway due to this being staff based thread, however i hope you guys considering my proposal
Or we can rate them Unknown due to being unknown as hell lol

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe Vietthai's compromise solution would be best to go with then?

 

[Mephistus]

Well, you learn something every day

However, reading again from the top, I only think Bleck is affecting the worlds in the game (not 2 universes, more than that including Mario's own dimension), and apparently 2-B is 1001 or higher universes- I get Dream World exists but I'm not even sure it counts). So it'd up to you guys to decide whether Mario's own dimension counts as destroying all of the dream universes. I can't really defend any more than this.

To clarify, all the dream realms should objectively be not actually part of Mario's universe, going by this M&L: Dream Team scene (Japanese scene afaik says the same effect, anyone welcome to translate it though).

The Star Spirits are known guardians of the dream realms, a place also noted "beyond the sky" in the Japanese version there. It sounds odd that the Star Spirits would be the only things spared too in either of the two books foretelling the future if Mario's dimension is now getting accepted as involved in the destruction (Merlon is pretty dang well aware of the Star Spirits existence as residents of Mario's dimension during the first Paper Mario game, even as he may not know of the Dream Depot, the references between the games make it clear that the first three Paper Mario games happen in chronological order in the story, even within the Japanese versions those references were kept with character dialogue and the catch cards dialogue) if the Star Spirits had the potential to just up and escape to there on their own accord with their dimensional travel or could have been regularly guarding / observing the dreams there daily during the destruction.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"Past the Moon and Beyond the stars" is a vague statement in itself. It neither means inside or outside the universe; though it just vaguely means very far away. I would just consider that a neutral statement.

The Dream Team statement more or less lacks details of "All" dream dimensions being effected and otherwise only has 2-C feats in Dream Team. Whether or not it has anything to do with Dream Depot. But I already have said I don't mind Dreamy Bowser, Zeekeeper and what not being downgraded to 2-C.

But regardless, I opened up a text file to quote all the various text from the previous two thread pages. But some important facts to also consider is that fact that World 7 aka Underwhere and Overthere are not only afterlifes interdimensional connected to the other SPM worlds, but also Mario's Dimension. There's the fact that even a lot of Bowser's Minions ended up in Underwhere via being stomped by a plumber. And on top of that, I have also still heard from others the fact that even characters native to Dream Worlds still have dreams giving birth to other dream worlds and people in the afterlife also doing the same thing.

I hope to get my stuff posted today however.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. Don't overstress yourself.

 

[Eficiente]

Yes. As firm as I see my position, it can wait all the time in the world.

 

[The_Smashor]

I fully agree with the downgrades.

 

[Bobsican]

Uh... bump.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

We're basically just waiting for the opposition to make their points, last I checked. Unsure of when they plan to post.

 

[Eficiente]

Don't bump this. It is to be remembered tho.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, still waiting for me, but been busy with both IRL job and other threads that also tend to get controversial at the same time.

 

[AKM sama]

It has been a long time.

 

[Arceus0x]

It has been a long time.

without you my friend♪

 

[Antvasima]

We need to try to get this done relatively soon, yes.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

What Executor noted is true but I did not do something that should never be done, I went on context, the very thing needed in that language; "Determined to wreak revenge on the universe and its many dimensions" "Merlon charges Mario to find eight Pure Hearts that allow travel between the dimensions threatened by Bleck's plans." to me meant 1) the many dimensions affected had to come from within the universe in the prophecy, as this is stated. 2) The dimensions visited across the game are likely the ones threatened by the prophecy, not more, as that would not be proven. 3) "The universe" is likely not plural, as this is not proven (and would otherwise imply all universes have within them many dimensions like "the universe where this game takes place", if I'm allowed to say that). Could the text still target "all universes and their many dimensions", and the dimensions threatened by Bleck's plans by only some of the dimensions threatened? It could if proven, it's unlikely otherwise.

Yeah, it literally says "And its many dimensions". "Universe" in context still does not objectively means the Void was objectively only effecting a single universe. I'll get back to where it says "And it's many dimensions means" but if the individual dimensions are Low 2-C sized individually, the Universe is clearly larger than Low 2-C. And if there are "Many" of them like the guide says, then it's 2-B. And actually, it is literally admitted by the OP that World 4 alone has multiple Universe statements. Such as the literal Japanese name Daiuchu literally means "The Universe". And the last part is literally them reaching the edge of said Universe. Furthermore, I already talked about the body of spaces out of the way, but it is still unaddressed that Sammer Kingdom Alone due to its background getting nuked outright would be 3-B in scale at bare minimum.

That on its own, as you say, "we clearly see more than one "World" or "Dimension" get effected", which should not equal that the "entire multiverse of Mario's cosmology is easily being effected", the latter could be the case if proven, otherwise it's an assumption that ignores the possibility of the destruction simply reaching that too. That prophecy targets something to be destroyed due to something with the power to do so, it doesn't say how only that will be destroyed. If more universes are destroyed, what about it? If the universe and its many dimensions is a correct translation, it's not being contradicted by that. It all translations actually mean "all worlds in general" and "all universes in general", then this is not being proven by the fact that more than one "World" or "Dimension" got affected.

The problem is, if Merlon knows full well the existence of many differeny worlds/dimensions and he describes the Void as destroying all existence, then he clearly means all of those universes he's aware of. Including the alternate universe the mushroom Kingdom is located in. Still, it was already collected above multiple scans saying In between dimensions. Plus, I already said assuming Mario's Universe/Multiverse is just a giant collection of 3-B or actually High 3-A sized pocket realities is even weirder than acknowledging an actual multiverse. Universe could just refer to the entirety of all existence rather than just a random collection of universes within the multiverse and it definately does not refer to a single universe if Mario's Universe is clearly being affected alongside everything else.

It's your interpretation that World 4 being like this would conflict in any way. Each world had its different gimmick to represent parts of the universe, "The Universe being its own thing next to other parallel places being more common", all of that makes perfect sense, nothing there can be grabbed and said "No this conflicts with the idea of them all being a universe and so that can't be the case."

I'm still going to have to disagree with this; yes, they all have their own level themed, but that does not mean they're all different sized. I should have added this to the list of Universe rules a long time ago, but I might as well update that list as many other staff members agreed back in late 2019 or early 2020 back when Saikou was an Admin and before we figured out the dark truth about Sera (But just because she's banned doesn't mean her points don't hold weight anymore). But this rule needs to be added to the aforementioned section.

• These are notes that the worlds are indeed universes; while they don't need all of these, at least one of them should indicate this.
  • If there is shown to be a collection of multiple alternate worlds/dimensions that are either stated to be parallel or existing next to each other and/or there are visual depictions resembling each of those worlds/dimensions in bubbles, and most importantly, at least one of those individual worlds/dimension has the other requirements to consider them universal in nature, then the conclusion is to consider all of those individual worlds/dimensions universes and that the entire collection is a multiverse.

This is another jump in logic. Yes they have different spaces, they wouldn't be "many dimensions" if they didn't. But this does not show at all that they have to be in different universes, not unless you want that to be the case. This are many dimensions, they don't have any reason to have the same all within them.

As in, if I divide a building into many different buildings, they don't all have to be the same. If I divide a powerful character into many different less powerful characters, they don't all have to look the same, nor have the same amount of power. If I make a game where a universe is made up of many dimensions, they can all have its gimmicks, that they do so does not prove they do not made up the universe.

All of them are still parallel in nature; they have interstellar, or even intergalactic backgrounds combined with existing next to world 4 which is a Universe. Still, I will talk about the aforementioned uncanny resemblances to String Theory or math formula shaped star constellations later. The rest is just false equivelenct and strawman not related to multiversal cosmology standards.

They are different dimensions, so they're not "more likely different realities altogether", but objectively so regardless of what are the differences they have.

Skipping over the parts you pretty much conceded to, but World 4 alone is a universe, worlds 1, 2, 6, are also different bodies of space existing next to 4, so again. Pointing out the rule that should have been added a long time ago.

Worlds as in planets or dimensions? Either way, what about it?

The latter obviously, why else would some random 3-B sized section of the Universe be called a world? Unless it's a pocket reality, but they don't call it pocket dimension plus my other points are still unaddressed.

Just saying, we already know Bleck nuked specifically a country and not an entire universe. To say that destroying the sky means it's definitely a universe seems like a big jump. We never even see the night sky at all in any of these worlds iirc and I also guess Shy Guys are universal/3-B in hax cause they can drain color from the sky in Color Splash

That is a false analogy and a false equivelency. I'm not talking about some color transformation (Which technically could be done via transmuting the sun's radiation color) But they strait up destroyed the not just the country/planet, but the sun, the stars, and the galaxies. As with each former thing getting nuked, the latter would have still been visible if that wasn't nuked too. Still, World 6 is still an entire dimension for other reasons. And so is Bleck's dimension. Also, read Executor's post again.

The Tiering system is based on the complexity of a structure, not its name. If someone takes an infinite-dimensional space and names it a city block, this would not mean that it's only a City Block level. If something is called a "Universe" or "World" and that structure fits with our definition of multiversal, complex multiversal, or outerversal, then that is what it will be.

Basically this ^^ Just because it said Country doesn't mean the complexity is nothing beyond country. Much like the Sammer Kingdom being an entire world/dimension. Also, why would such a potent tribe such as the Tribe of Darkness be in a dimension only country sized?

The rest is all interpretational nonsense. I also acknowledged Mario's dimension in the OP. But there's NO proof Mario's dimension was affected and no discernible proof multiple universe-sized worlds were affected at all. Are we ignoring The Void not being present in The Whoa Zone, a place outside of the infinite space? Proving in-game it didn't affect more than the universe? The universe having different celestial bodies is easily explained because the whole game is another dimension, not that the specific worlds are. This is also a weak argument because Mario's geography CONSTANTLY changes. There's also still the fact monsters and enemies and people from all over "the world" can congregate in a single spot and travel between these worlds or have traveled between them without Dimensional Doors, as they only show up after Mario collects Pure Hearts and are one-way. And again, if these weren't all part of the same world, how do you explain multiple NPCs who aren't even wise people knowing about the other worlds and characters in them? These inconsistencies have been ignored entirely.

I'm still just seeing this all as interpretational nonsense.

Yes, these words CAN mean different things, but DO they? All of existence, it's dimensions and worlds can STILL relate to the universe too. So again, it's dependent on what you PERSONALLY feel. Are the Painting Worlds universes because they literally have all the "proof" shown here? No. Does Mario Galaxy have other universes you travel to because of dimensional doors and the fact World S has different geography? 3D World and Bowser's Fury? Other universes? All the proof against them can also be used against the arguments here as well.

Actually, Mephistus already pretty much answered all that.

Also, "different space" but yet World 7, getting launched into the atmosphere shows us a planet (likely full of the different "worlds" as The Overthere can provably not be considered a whole universe), and the space you get sent to is literally the same as Chapter 4

Given this proof of a World NOT being a whole universe and connected to another World (Space and also a planet), again, the lack of Void in The Whoa Zone, which is a place outside of space, this means the Void could only destroy a single universe of infinite space.

It's easy to say at a core level that "this COULD be the case" but aren't we supposed to examine all the details? How can you explain away these inconsistencies? It's a fact The Void doesn't appear in The Whoa Zone. You can try and find it even during the period of Chapter 8 but it's not there. And I don't think you can leave when you're in Chapter 8 either. But this place exists outside of space. This is a clear contradiction unless other evidence is brought up. The characters DO know of each other generally, and they do travel between these worlds with no proof of dimensional travel, as the doors are one-way and only appeared in Flipside for Mario when he placed a Pure Heart in a pillar. The girl in Yold Town who gossips about the various characters in the game would absolutely NOT be able to know anything about the other characters if these were different universes. Assuming for no reason that Heronicus has Dimensional Travel because the fact he goes between the worlds doesn't support your argument is a piss-poor excuse to try and save face. And these arguments about "dimensional doors", Mario's home dimension, and the geography being different are all either weak arguments or have been talked about within the OP itself. There is quite literally a level in NSMB that is painted, a vastly different art style and geography than normal but it exists within the main world. Different geography is a poor argument.

Also, "Flipside is a dimension" is false. Merlon states it is in NO dimension at all. It's not a dimension, it's just a place between dimensions. This is literally what the game says

Actually, the same thing doesn't apply the other way around; a starry background looking the same isn't evidence it's the same universe or body of space for that matter; different star structures that are far different is evidence of something being vastly different, but that is still asking me to prove a negative for the opposite. Also, the afterlife being on a planet with Hell being underground and Heaven being in its skies isn't proof that it's within World 4; why didn't Squirps just fly the party to all those other worlds then? And more importantly, how did minions form Mario's dimension end up in Underwhere? This is clearly not an afterlife reserved just for World 4.

Also, just because the English localization made a few mistakes here or there and attempted to downplay the religious controversy, doesn't mean the entire localization should be thrown out. The Many Worlds Interpretation is still one of the most consistent traits that Super Paper Mario is literally all about.

Acknowledgement of other lands (which are the places Heronicus has ventured and the same places that are talked about with Carson), more context about space just being treated as space within that dimension and not another dimension or universe (doubt this would change in Japanese and I don't think it does; it's just called "a world" which doesn't mean much), consistency with Chapter 3 and 4 in that the aliens watch Francis' favorite shows, and a mistranslation proving the English isn't reliable. Also confirmation the owner of the store in space is howzit. So much for "are all shopkeepers the same?"

Wonder what excuses will be made for these.




Grodus Chronicles exists in Flipside/Flopside too.

Are we to assume there's some interdimensional broadcasting network for no reason, or go with the fact the Japanese version and certain contextual pieces of evidence support this being all in one dimension and they're all able to tune in to the same network? One is more outlandish and assuming than the other.

All that proves is that Merlon and many Flipside/Flopside residents are just that aware to the many different worlds/dimensions. You can't just try to say Grodus stuff exists inf Flipside/Flopside and try to rub it off as "There's only one Universe/Body of space" when you openly conceded that Mario's Dimension is clearly a different Universe from SPM's main location(s). Which is further conflicted by the fact that Bleck when to Bowser's Castle to even awakening the interdimensional Void in the first place because he needed the power of Love to awaken the Chaos Heart.

What's the counter to a consistency in that residents of each Chapter knowing of the same cartoon and enjoying it? We've had Flipside/Flopside, Francis far in The Bitlands, and the aliens on Planet Blobule which has statements of being near the edge of space. The fact it IS Howzit in the space store according to Tippi (and I'm sure her other tattles for stores would say something similar tbh), the fact there's acknowledgement of other lands and that regular joe's can hear about them or the people from them and have traveled between them? Monster and enemies from all over the world being in the Pit, Chapter 7 showing interconnectivity because we can see the same Space from Chapter 4 as well as a planet where The Overthere is on (it being called Skyland and Overthere Stair being Sky Road or something further proving it's just in the clouds and not some other dimension or universe), Merluvlee being able to still see Sammer Kingdom's destroyed state in her fortunes (if it was gone from existence entirely and time was destroyed it wouldn't be part of any foreseeable future), the fact Bleck has destroyed specifically a country before and the sky being blank isn't good proof because of Color Splash, and The Void being unable to be seen in The Whoa Zone, a place existing outside of space which would also prove The Void didn't reach everything?

Frankly, I think with all the inconsistencies and the fact the English has a mistranslation, means we cannot let that version take precedence at all. It all taking place within a single universe makes much more sense to me. How else can they all watch the same cartoon? It's more believable that a shared universe can have a broadcast that stretches throughout it than a multiverse sharing the same broadcast in many of it's universes. We also know for sure that an NPC can reach other Chapters to run his shop as informed by Tippi. Does the shopkeeper also now have Dimensional Travel? The power over dimensions/teleporting is only an ability those who are related to or have been taught under the Ancients know, so regular Joe's like Heronicus and Howzit should NOT be capable. I'm bringing fact, while the other side is relying on interpretation only instead of considering all the context I've provided. It's a shame to go through all this work and then have it be ignored when tons of my points have no been rightfully acknowledged at all and I've already countered the other arguments using logic from other games in the series as well. My argument has consistency and less assumptions made with it, and isn't that what we try to go for?

And since we've already proved "world" can literally mean anything I think we need to focus on the context within the game to see which side it supports. So please, let's not focus on that. I never wanted it to be a huge focus in the first place. I just wanted to point out the lack of calling the other places dimensions in the Japanese, and now that we know it's vague, we should look at the other context instead of relying on a fallible english localization.

Rince and repeat; none of that disproves my points at all period. Nor does it disprove Mephistus. Still, characters from other universes still go to Underwhere when they die.

That's pretty meaningless, it just says they did work on it to have it be as fun as possible, which anyone would of course do. This doesn't mean both versions are canon, by that logic any product whose creators worked in localizations of it has all those versions be canon and worth looking into. This is not the first time you grabbed into things that don't mean what you used them for, I hope your rebuttals aren't full of that.

I wouldn't call confirmation that the Japanese developers and English developers working on the game together to capture the heart and spirit of Super Paper Mario "Meaningless". While I can see this scan more says more "Fun" as opposed to more reliable, I recall Kepekley actually making the same points for the Majora's Mask thread. While I know people find a lot of shadiness about him, this was still something he said very strongly that the echo chambers attempting to shut out every guidebook does legit need to die. They still talk about the main plot of Super Paper Mario, and the real main point is that Super Paper Mario was written during the height in popularity of various multiverse cosmology theories; String Theory, M-Theory, Many Worlds Interpretation, Hilbert Space. SPM is trying to capitalize off all of that and create its own multiverse lore game. Alternate dimensions is literally the entire theme of Super Paper Mario and SPM is also by far the darkest and most complex the Mario franchise as ever gotten with the "Destruction of all existence" and all.

But anyway, I still have other reasons for why English localization shouldn't just be ignored outright. Just look at all these translations Mephistus collected with most of Fox's older scans being pretty much Google Translate dependant; they even tested the Kanji themselves to find out most of Fox collected was literally just that, "Google translate". And at the end of the day, there is no 100% objective way to translate any given Japanese text with any foul proof. Let me give another example. 星を貫通する or "Hoshi o kantsū suru" can literally translate to any of the following.

• Penetrate the planet
• Penetrate the planets
• Penetrate the star
• Penetrate the stars
• Pierce the planet
• Pierce the planets
• Pierce the star
• Pierce the stars
• Destroy the planet
• Destroy the planets
• Destroy the star
• Destroy the stars

All 12 of these statements are equally accurate translations when it comes to Japanese to English text, but if an English localization favors one of those; stick to that one. Likewise, it all comes back to what Executor said.

n fact, remember, Japanese can be vague with plural. Just because something is simply "世界" doesn't mean it's always "World", it could also mean "Worlds". And this also enters in conflict with another word used a lot "すべて" (Subete), a word that can mean both "the entirety of something", "everything", "all of", "all" and much more.

The term used in the first scan from Paper Mario is "世界のすべて" (Sekai no subete). Normally in Japanese the particle "の" is used in possession, normally "Someone's something" with "の" being the " 's ". Of course, I have already seen some people state that it can also be used in the opposite direction, and that can create vagueness, but that isn't necessary here.

In the very way that the language is vague, "世界のすべて" (Sekai no subete) could mean "Everything in the world", or even "Everything in the worlds". In a similar way, if "すべての世界" (Subete no Sekai) was used, it could also mean both "The entire World" and "Every World/All the Worlds" and as expected, it could also be the reason why some official translations can give a different idea of what happens in relation to the original text. The team behind the translation can have got a different idea, they could have simply the need to change and somehow make the game more appealing and things like that. No translation is really created "equally" even by the same person in the same company. That is why it's always necessary to look for context and the various ways of interpreting the work before going to "this is what this means".

I'm explaining this here because I saw a few people complaining about the translation subject and wanted to give more insight into it (Also, I'll be making something similar for Digimon when I have time, so I need to be sure that not everyone hates this...).

Anyway, if the structure "すべての世界" (Subete no Sekai) was used more often I could definitely see that just being the vagueness of plural and it could mean both "the entire world" or "every world", but I didn't see that in any of the scans. Of course, just "Sekai" alone could also mean "Worlds" (Even if the intended translation is also World, worlds within World isn't really something out of the standard), it would depend entirely on how the 'world/s" is structured.

So yes, the "Subete no Sekai" which the Kanji can translate to either Everything in the World or all of the worlds, with "All Existence" also being one of the alternatives. There's too many loose terms unspecified attempting to translate Japanese. So instead of trying to overcomplicate things with little to no payoff, why don't we keep it simple and see which translation the English localization favors. Given that was have this scan as well as this one, the English localization clearly favors the translation that supports the multiversal stuff. As well as literally every single world or dimension or universe in existencence. With with the word "Many" in play, this is clearly a 2-B feat as the Void devours the multiverse simply by outgrowing the multiverse. And Dimentio would also recreate the multiverse in his own image.

I can see a number of users agreeing on "2-B ([Dogmatism here]/[Incomplete information to avoid coming off as dogmatism here])", that doesn't mean it's correct. I don't need to prove that more than 2 universes are being destroyed, you need to prove that all are, which you can't. We don't know if he knows about more than those 2 universes, we can't assume that he both knows and targets them with this not being in the game. "Narratively" 2 universes being destroyed is even a technicality, a conclusion after adding up info here and there, to take the narrative as aiming to have something that wider is too distracted from it. It's all just the bias of wanting this to destroy all universes being applied to what it is being presented.

After everything done and said, it cannot simply just be 2 universes when he literally says all Worlds/Dimensions and some of those worlds are literally parallel to the ones literally confirmed to be universes.

Show me when was it stated that the target was all existence first of all. And again, that excuse of 2 universes being the target is being used again; The target, as the game & guide say many times, is the universe, "all existence" as such can very easily refer to it, but since you want to tackle the "2 universes being the target", then that's redirected as the target of "all existence" being those 2 universes while disregarding the many times 1 universe was stated to be the target.

Already did above.

Both translations being equally accurate is a false premise, 1 is the og text and both don't say the same. If I could replace any evidence of any verse for a better translated version of its og language, it took me no effort to do so, and it & its localization didn't say quite the same by tiny nitpicks, I would easily go with the better translated version to better represent the verse. Here things are put into question, which changes things up.

No, I just went over it all; it isn't. Given what Executor said, the English localization should be taken as highest priority at this point. Which includes "All Existence, All Worlds, All Dimensions". Speaking of which, Merlon also appears to be aware of the Star Spirits. And he's definately aware of many different worlds/universes.

Let's see, on top what I pointed out before we have

• Page 5 "save the universe" "the world - all worlds" "save the dimensions", the page before being the one that pointed out the worlds in the game being dimensions.
• Page 6 "Bleck could end the universe by himself" (in context w/o team work), "determined to destroy all worlds so he could create new ones for his own" "stop his drive to end the universe?"
• Other pages refer to the worlds as dimensions
• Page 17 "the town of Flipside—a strange city that exists between the tapestry of dimensions that make up the known universe." [This couldn't possibly have been "the known universes (all of them)" in Jap., in the other cases things were "simply" "extremely unlikely to be plural" when they said universe, here it is objective]
• Page 48 "...and drop some silly dialogue that’s the perfect sideshow to Count Block’s decidedly more serious plot to destroy the universe."
• Page 157 "Maybe if Tippi can reach the count in time, she can remind him that there are still things worth saving in this universe. If not, then all hope is lost and all of the dimensions will collapse into Void, putting a final underline beneath the dreaded words: “game over.”"

So more of the same really, we already knew this guides goes against this targeting all universes in the multiverse, if we now have no excuses for it.

As said before, page 5 does say "Once again, the fate of the known universe rests on the rounded shoulders of a mute plumber." and page 126 says "Even as a massive pixelated vortex begins to swallow the universe, who would believe that Mario will fail? I mean, come on.", but this is technically less objective.

Yes. I don't give that more value than the texts the Engish version of the game itself has.

Well, this 2 guides are in English, and that page is in Jap., it makes perfect sense to not show them. That's not something you do and some people may buy them w/o speaking English.

----

Also, added to what I said before about how the texts in the English version of the game don't necessarily mean 2-B, there is even stuff that supports 2-C: "Heroes... Trying to save these pathetic old worlds.", "Let's save all these worlds from destruction!"; which this could technically refer to all the worlds in the multiverse, but it makes more sense in context to mean the worlds traveled that we see. And the last part of Bleck's made up plan varies between making "a new world" or "new worlds" from the dimensions destroyed, his minions doing the former at the end as of course they would not change all the universes in the multiverse, that's made up from what the game presents, this guys are only gonna stay in the universe shown in the game and make that 1 universe better.

That's about all that needed to be said.

And once again, literally all of this is 100% repeating the same mistakes Executor said not to do, misusing the word "Universe" is the only piggy back to suggest it's simply Low 2-C as opposed to 2-C or 2-B. Or that 2-C implies it's just Mario's dimension and wherever Flipside/Flopside is and assuming all of that + the 7 worlds are just one Universe. Which also contradicts the purpose of Flipside/Flopside. And once again abusing the same Golden Mean fallacy, Mario's dimension is also stated to be one of those many "Worlds/Dimensions" connected to Flipside/Flopside. So either Mario's own universe is just another pocket reality or everything else are all universes; they all exist next to each other. And since both World 4 and Mario's dimension both have multiple universe statements; especially the latter via many other game statements.

2-B is just the only conclusion that makes sense all things considered. The worlds are all different universe, there are many of them, and the Void was going to expand endlessly and devourer all of them. And with that, I still rest my case. And people keep changing their mind left and right where first people wanted to only use English localizations based on Dino's thread then immediately retracted that as soon as a different thread was made comes of as hypocrisy. I don't like downgrade for the sake of downgrade mentalities anymore or less than I like upgrade for the sake of upgrade mentalities. There should be consistency without hypocrisy. And since Japanese is too flexible of a language to get infallible translations, the last resort is sticking to English and it's many "All dimensions and all existence" statements.

 

[Bobsican]

TBH at this point we could use more standards on the site over the usage of languages for indexing purposes, but beyond that I strongly agree with DDM.

 

[Eficiente]

Yeah, it literally says "And its many dimensions". "Universe" in context still does not objectively means the Void was objectively only effecting a single universe.

Between me saying "Could the text still target "all universes and their many dimensions", and the dimensions threatened by Bleck's plans by only some of the dimensions threatened? It could if proven, it's unlikely otherwise." and you saying ""Universe" in context still does not objectively means the Void was objectively only effecting a single universe." the same comes across; the text doesn't prove 2-B, it makes the feat Low 2-C but if other proof points to 2-B then good for that other proof.

I'll get back to where it says "And it's many dimensions means" but if the individual dimensions are Low 2-C sized individually, the Universe is clearly larger than Low 2-C. And if there are "Many" of them like the guide says, then it's 2-B.

The what-if in the the first sentence doesn't recognize how it could be higher into Low 2-C. The second sentence is just wrong, if there are "Many" of dimensions (and if those are universes, and if those universes have a space between each other equal to that of universe in a real multiverse), then it's 2-C, not 2-B.

And actually, it is literally admitted by the OP that World 4 alone has multiple Universe statements. Such as the literal Japanese name Daiuchu literally means "The Universe". And the last part is literally them reaching the edge of said Universe. Furthermore, I already talked about the body of spaces out of the way, but it is still unaddressed that Sammer Kingdom Alone due to its background getting nuked outright would be 3-B in scale at bare minimum.

I'm not against that the universe dimension is universe-sized, but the other-gimmicks dimensions easily may not be as big. If I make a game that takes place in a planet divided into many worlds that are like cities or something but 1 world is called "the world" and spans over the rest of the planet then that 1 world is bigger because that's how I made it, that's its gimmick and how things are. That's not to say that worlds in this game are that small, their own proven cosmic size is true, but that's not the same as being the size of the universe when all put together form the universe.

The problem is, if Merlon knows full well the existence of many differeny worlds/dimensions and he describes the Void as destroying all existence, then he clearly means all of those universes he's aware of. Including the alternate universe the mushroom Kingdom is located in.

Most of those other dimensions he knows of are the ones that made up the universe the game takes place on, and he also knows Mario's universe, it's not proven that he would refer to more and info goes against it.

Still, it was already collected above multiple scans saying In between dimensions.

It is between dimensions in the universe the game takes place on, and Mario's nearby universe.

Plus, I already said assuming Mario's Universe/Multiverse is just a giant collection of 3-B or actually High 3-A sized pocket realities is even weirder than acknowledging an actual multiverse. Universe could just refer to the entirety of all existence rather than just a random collection of universes within the multiverse and it definately does not refer to a single universe if Mario's Universe is clearly being affected alongside everything else.

This are too many what-ifs. You project things unsaid here in a way that makes it confusing. What is "Mario's Universe/Multiverse"? "Mario's Universe can also refer to the Multiverse" or "Mario's Universe ALWAYS refers to the Multiverse"? You seem to take in the latter but who even brought them up. The universe this game takes place on is many of several dimensions/worlds, that we all already know, 1 of those dimensions is particularly bigger. Nobody ever said that the multiverse in Mario is full of the same kind of universes being made up of many dimensions/worlds. So let's go over that detour again

"I already said assuming Mario's Universe/Multiverse is just a giant collection of 3-B or actually High 3-A sized pocket realities is even weirder than acknowledging an actual multiverse."

Nobody said that and a multiverse does exist.

"Universe could just refer to the entirety of all existence rather than just a random collection of universes within the multiverse"

Convenient headcanon, nor was there even proof that the dimensions were even all universes, and that they are "within the multiverse" doesn't matter.

"and it definately does not refer to a single universe if Mario's Universe is clearly being affected alongside everything else."

So because it is affecting Mario's universe then it has to not refer to a single universe, that's nonsense, Mario's universe is simply being affected too along that other universe, a much simpler explanation than to change the meaning of the word universe in English. If "an earthquake takes down a desk" but then it actually took down 2 desks then that just means 2 desks were taken down, there was an understatement but it didn't always meant that both desks or all desks that exist were taken down, the statement is not even wrong as a desk was taken down. Not to mention just how odd it is that both guides use the same made up terminology for "universe" and the one that uses it the most refuses to just use the world multiverse or refer to all universes as the target, instead referring to the universe as something singular.

I'm still going to have to disagree with this; yes, they all have their own level themed, but that does not mean they're all different sized. I should have added this to the list of Universe rules a long time ago, but I might as well update that list as many other staff members agreed back in late 2019 or early 2020 back when Saikou was an Admin and before we figured out the dark truth about Sera (But just because she's banned doesn't mean her points don't hold weight anymore). But this rule needs to be added to the aforementioned section.

• These are notes that the worlds are indeed universes; while they don't need all of these, at least one of them should indicate this.
  • If there is shown to be a collection of multiple alternate worlds/dimensions that are either stated to be parallel or existing next to each other and/or there are visual depictions resembling each of those worlds/dimensions in bubbles, and most importantly, at least one of those individual worlds/dimension has the other requirements to consider them universal in nature, then the conclusion is to consider all of those individual worlds/dimensions universes and that the entire collection is a multiverse.

It's not the same as this dimensions/worlds all put together form a universe. It is objective to say that this context makes things different and the page does not account for it, which I take as something very easy to see.

Also "existing next to each other" w/o much context is a pretty low standard to call something the same size as what it exists next to, a number of pocket dimensions being next to the universe where characters travel to it, after all.

All of them are still parallel in nature; they have interstellar, or even intergalactic backgrounds combined with existing next to world 4 which is a Universe. Still, I will talk about the aforementioned uncanny resemblances to String Theory or math formula shaped star constellations later. The rest is just false equivelenct and strawman not related to multiversal cosmology standards.

Good for all that. Being parallel in the context they have doesn't necessarily go over their size, as the word doesn't even necessarily refer to, but how they are related.

The latter obviously, why else would some random 3-B sized section of the Universe be called a world? Unless it's a pocket reality, but they don't call it pocket dimension plus my other points are still unaddressed.

Do we have the Jap. version of that?

I wouldn't call confirmation that the Japanese developers and English developers working on the game together to capture the heart and spirit of Super Paper Mario "Meaningless". While I can see this scan more says more "Fun" as opposed to more reliable, I recall Kepekley actually making the same points for the Majora's Mask thread. While I know people find a lot of shadiness about him, this was still something he said very strongly that the echo chambers attempting to shut out every guidebook does legit need to die. They still talk about the main plot of Super Paper Mario, and the real main point is that Super Paper Mario was written during the height in popularity of various multiverse cosmology theories; String Theory, M-Theory, Many Worlds Interpretation, Hilbert Space. SPM is trying to capitalize off all of that and create its own multiverse lore game. Alternate dimensions is literally the entire theme of Super Paper Mario and SPM is also by far the darkest and most complex the Mario franchise as ever gotten with the "Destruction of all existence" and all.

In the sense of claiming "English Localization Canon", "[...] confirming the canonicity connections", yes, it was meaningless, way too much was claimed for nothing, from something somewhat common with interpretable repercussions. It's quite cringe since, again, by that logic any product whose creators worked in localizations of it has all those versions be canon and worth looking into, the og version still matters the same next to its English version.

But anyway, I still have other reasons for why English localization shouldn't just be ignored outright. Just look at all these translations Mephistus collected with most of Fox's older scans being pretty much Google Translate dependant; they even tested the Kanji themselves to find out most of Fox collected was literally just that, "Google translate". And at the end of the day, there is no 100% objective way to translate any given Japanese text with any foul proof. Let me give another example. 星を貫通する or "Hoshi o kantsū suru" can literally translate to any of the following.

• Penetrate the planet
• Penetrate the planets
• Penetrate the star
• Penetrate the stars
• Pierce the planet
• Pierce the planets
• Pierce the star
• Pierce the stars
• Destroy the planet
• Destroy the planets
• Destroy the star
• Destroy the stars

All 12 of these statements are equally accurate translations when it comes to Japanese to English text, but if an English localization favors one of those; stick to that one. Likewise, it all comes back to what Executor said.

I don't think this has the relevance you give it? Any language has the same issues with synonyms of words when translating, but the context matters the most. If at least we know the target then we know if it's a planet or a star and if it's 1 or more, the rest just gets lowballed for calcs and up in the air as collective knowledge. In this game, we know a void will turn a world into nothing, so something like "destroy" will very much mean "destroy all of it", for instance.

In any case, I don't ignore the English localization as I don't see it saying anything contradictory. The og version is simply the one that matters, its meaning is in both versions.

So yes, the "Subete no Sekai" which the Kanji can translate to either Everything in the World or all of the worlds, with "All Existence" also being one of the alternatives. There's too many loose terms unspecified attempting to translate Japanese. So instead of trying to overcomplicate things with little to no payoff, why don't we keep it simple and see which translation the English localization favors.

I already went over this, it's not overcomplicated, but pretty simply (Call "universe" "multiverse" in English if anything would be overcomplicated). "All worlds" refers to all the worlds/dimensions the universe is made of, world (Sekai) likely not referring to a big fat universe, and we know this because other texts refer to all dimensions/worlds too but of the universe, in the universe, with the universe being the target, 世界のすべて is perfectly fine to say, it would mean the the multiverse w/o info that backfires that idea. There are not "many loose terms", if we were to make an unordered list with all the meanings this has like the one you made above and discard the ones that don't make sense then they're all the same. Just because translating is hard that doesn't mean settle for the English localization is the way to go about it.

Already did above.

The Jap. version targets all worlds (Sekai), not even being redundant about it or with dramatic sadness. All existence in the English version can still refer to the universe, since "existence" at his biggest varies between all of a reality or the whole multiverse. And that's it really, you would already be recognizing that the text is being redundant in your take ("All existence [The multiverse]... All worlds [in the multiverse], all dimensions [in the multiverse]... "), otherwise it's the same ("All existence [The universe]... All worlds [in the universe], all dimensions [in the universe]... ") but fitting to what the guides say.

No, I just went over it all; it isn't. Given what Executor said, the English localization should be taken as highest priority at this point. Which includes "All Existence, All Worlds, All Dimensions". Speaking of which, Merlon also appears to be aware of the Star Spirits. And he's definately aware of many different worlds/universes.

Nothing you pointed out puts it as the highest priority, it doesn't make sense for the localization of something to be a better priority than the og version. "All Existence, All Worlds, All Dimensions" is not even in the Jap. version but it exists in the English localization and English localization=good and therefore needs to be used? What gullible would go with that, the localization just takes some obvious decisions when translating like using plural when plural clearly needed to be used. It doesn't really make a difference to use that "All Existence, All Worlds, All Dimensions" since it doesn't mean what you think it means, but this at least wouldn't need to be argued by not using something that doesn't exist in the og text.

And once again, literally all of this is 100% repeating the same mistakes Executor said not to do, misusing the word "Universe" is the only piggy back to suggest it's simply Low 2-C as opposed to 2-C or 2-B.

You 100% believe they are mistakes rather than correct translations, they don't objectively are, it's unlikely that they were mistakes in some of those texts in a way that recontextualizes the rest, the whole thing, unless it's a version of a Jap. guide saying the same, was written from scratch from knowledge & consultations, leaving no room for mistranslations, and it over & over again refers to the target being the universe and how it has dimensions in it, having the mistakes, if there was any, be absurdly sloppy.

Or that 2-C implies it's just Mario's dimension and wherever Flipside/Flopside is and assuming all of that + the 7 worlds are just one Universe.

No, no, the worlds are just one universe, Mario's universe is another. Nothing states that all that is 1 universe.

Mario's dimension is also stated to be one of those many "Worlds/Dimensions" connected to Flipside/Flopside.

Wouldn't really matter but would you show that? I'm pretty sure it's just his Kingdom.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that Medeus makes very good sense above.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Between me saying "Could the text still target "all universes and their many dimensions", and the dimensions threatened by Bleck's plans by only some of the dimensions threatened? It could if proven, it's unlikely otherwise." and you saying ""Universe" in context still does not objectively means the Void was objectively only effecting a single universe." the same comes across; the text doesn't prove 2-B, it makes the feat Low 2-C but if other proof points to 2-B then good for that other proof.

That is still knit picking the word "Universe"; literally your only proof for labeling it as Low 2-C is that it says "Destroy the Universe and it's many dimensions". 2-B sized universes are a thing if 1-A sized universes are a thing; and it's already explained via other statements regarding those dimensions. Again, complexity of structure > name of structure.

The what-if in the the first sentence doesn't recognize how it could be higher into Low 2-C. The second sentence is just wrong, if there are "Many" of dimensions (and if those are universes, and if those universes have a space between each other equal to that of universe in a real multiverse), then it's 2-C, not 2-B.

We have proof at least on of those internal dimensions is a Universe in itself, and the other dimensions are literally next to it/parallel to it.

I'm not against that the universe dimension is universe-sized, but the other-gimmicks dimensions easily may not be as big. If I make a game that takes place in a planet divided into many worlds that are like cities or something but 1 world is called "the world" and spans over the rest of the planet then that 1 world is bigger because that's how I made it, that's its gimmick and how things are. That's not to say that worlds in this game are that small, their own proven cosmic size is true, but that's not the same as being the size of the universe when all put together form the universe.

This goes against the rule that should have been put in place; and I have had multiple staff members as well as regular users agreeing with that being added back when the universe page was being made recently. Still having only one that's High 3-A or Low 2-C while the rest are only 4-A to 3-B makes 0 sense whatsoever.

Most of those other dimensions he knows of are the ones that made up the universe the game takes place on, and he also knows Mario's universe, it's not proven that he would refer to more and info goes against it.

Actually, later statements would imply Mario's Dimension is also made up into that "Same Universe"

t is between dimensions in the universe the game takes place on, and Mario's nearby universe.

And Bleck went to Mario's Dimension to awaken it, and it's conceptually the same level plane as all those other dimensions.

This are too many what-ifs. You project things unsaid here in a way that makes it confusing. What is "Mario's Universe/Multiverse"? "Mario's Universe can also refer to the Multiverse" or "Mario's Universe ALWAYS refers to the Multiverse"? You seem to take in the latter but who even brought them up. The universe this game takes place on is many of several dimensions/worlds, that we all already know, 1 of those dimensions is particularly bigger. Nobody ever said that the multiverse in Mario is full of the same kind of universes being made up of many dimensions/worlds. So let's go over that detour again

"I already said assuming Mario's Universe/Multiverse is just a giant collection of 3-B or actually High 3-A sized pocket realities is even weirder than acknowledging an actual multiverse."

Nobody said that and a multiverse does exist.

"Universe could just refer to the entirety of all existence rather than just a random collection of universes within the multiverse"

Convenient headcanon, nor was there even proof that the dimensions were even all universes, and that they are "within the multiverse" doesn't matter.

"and it definately does not refer to a single universe if Mario's Universe is clearly being affected alongside everything else."

So because it is affecting Mario's universe then it has to not refer to a single universe, that's nonsense, Mario's universe is simply being affected too along that other universe, a much simpler explanation than to change the meaning of the word universe in English. If "an earthquake takes down a desk" but then it actually took down 2 desks then that just means 2 desks were taken down, there was an understatement but it didn't always meant that both desks or all desks that exist were taken down, the statement is not even wrong as a desk was taken down. Not to mention just how odd it is that both guides use the same made up terminology for "universe" and the one that uses it the most refuses to just use the world multiverse or refer to all universes as the target, instead referring to the universe as something singular.

All of this just tells me you haven't played any of the games. The Mushroom Kingdom is located in an actual universe; it's located in the Milky Way Galaxy and the Milky Way Galaxy is located in a legitimate universe. Furthermore, Flipside/Flopside still has the Mushroom Kingdom as one of it's many dimensions connected interdimensional. Calling Mushroom Kingdom a country sized pocket reality, which is what this section is trying to imply is factually incorrect. It's best described that the Mushroom Kingdom is also located in another Universe; with "DaiUchu" also being one of those parallel universes that's different from the outer space above the mushroom kingdom.

It is not headcanon, because these are all established facts made obvious throughout the Mario franchise.

It's not the same as this dimensions/worlds all put together form a universe. It is objective to say that this context makes things different and the page does not account for it, which I take as something very easy to see.

Also "existing next to each other" w/o much context is a pretty low standard to call something the same size as what it exists next to, a number of pocket dimensions being next to the universe where characters travel to it, after all.

When someone makes a batch of cookies; all of them are comparable in size. There's not one cookie infinitely larger than the rest of the batch put together.

Same with putting marbles in a bag, no one would put one marble infinitely larger than all the rest in the same bag. It's not a low standard but common sense; and arguing otherwise is 2 + 2 =/= 4 levels of misinformation.

Do we have the Jap. version of that?

Talking about World 6; they're all still called worlds or sometimes dimensions. Collections are both in the OP and throughout the thread. Really hard to miss

In the sense of claiming "English Localization Canon", "[...] confirming the canonicity connections", yes, it was meaningless, way too much was claimed for nothing, from something somewhat common with interpretable repercussions. It's quite cringe since, again, by that logic any product whose creators worked in localizations of it has all those versions be canon and worth looking into, the og version still matters the same next to its English version.

Actually, the American version is the version released first technically speaking. It could be seen as the original from that fact alone. And the fact of the matter is, both the English team and Japanese team worked on the story together; it's not like one of them worked on it and the other simply attempted to translate it. Which is a lot more than I can say for other Japanese to English works.

I don't think this has the relevance you give it? Any language has the same issues with synonyms of words when translating, but the context matters the most. If at least we know the target then we know if it's a planet or a star and if it's 1 or more, the rest just gets lowballed for calcs and up in the air as collective knowledge. In this game, we know a void will turn a world into nothing, so something like "destroy" will very much mean "destroy all of it", for instance.

In any case, I don't ignore the English localization as I don't see it saying anything contradictory. The og version is simply the one that matters, its meaning is in both versions.

American version is not only the most reliably accessible, it's also the 1st release. And thus could be seen as the original. But still, that doesn't disprove my point that the Japanese version is too flexible and just has neutral statements left and right where as the English version is the only static version really combined with it being more original. So it is relevant.

I already went over this, it's not overcomplicated, but pretty simply (Call "universe" "multiverse" in English if anything would be overcomplicated). "All worlds" refers to all the worlds/dimensions the universe is made of, world (Sekai) likely not referring to a big fat universe, and we know this because other texts refer to all dimensions/worlds too but of the universe, in the universe, with the universe being the target, 世界のすべて is perfectly fine to say, it would mean the the multiverse w/o info that backfires that idea. There are not "many loose terms", if we were to make an unordered list with all the meanings this has like the one you made above and discard the ones that don't make sense then they're all the same. Just because translating is hard that doesn't mean settle for the English localization is the way to go about it.

Both the Mushroom Kingdom, and DaiUchu are included. Also, Light World and Dark World being parallel to each other is still a good reason to call both of those universes. And again, you keep saying you aren't ignoring what Executor is saying; but the fact of the matter is, you still are. You keep saying "It says Universe, it doesn't say multiverse, so it cannot factually be higher than Low 2-C". Super Paper Mario takes place in a Multiverse sized Universe and in the context of Super Paper Mario, Universe when spoken by Merlon means the Multiverse. DaiUchu which means the Universe of course only refers to a single universe. Universe in various other Mario games refers to Mario's Dimension specifically. But when describing the Void; clearly an interdimensional void devouring all existence including a universe containing many universe sized dimensions; this is a perfect example of universe meaning multiverse. I already took the other statements into account but again. I don't need to keep arguing in circles.

The Jap. version targets all worlds (Sekai), not even being redundant about it or with dramatic sadness. All existence in the English version can still refer to the universe, since "existence" at his biggest varies between all of a reality or the whole multiverse. And that's it really, you would already be recognizing that the text is being redundant in your take ("All existence [The multiverse]... All worlds [in the multiverse], all dimensions [in the multiverse]... "), otherwise it's the same ("All existence [The universe]... All worlds [in the universe], all dimensions [in the universe]... ") but fitting to what the guides say.

And there's still more than one universe being effected anyway that Merlon himself is fully aware of, so it cannot simply be Low 2-C, it has to be 2-C or above. But with all context considered, effecting the multiverse is most reliable.

Nothing you pointed out puts it as the highest priority, it doesn't make sense for the localization of something to be a better priority than the og version. "All Existence, All Worlds, All Dimensions" is not even in the Jap. version but it exists in the English localization and English localization=good and therefore needs to be used? What gullible would go with that, the localization just takes some obvious decisions when translating like using plural when plural clearly needed to be used. It doesn't really make a difference to use that "All Existence, All Worlds, All Dimensions" since it doesn't mean what you think it means, but this at least wouldn't need to be argued by not using something that doesn't exist in the og text.

Yes it does, others proved that Mario's Dimension is just another Low 2-C sized dimension within the SPM Universe, and so is DaiUchu and many other dimensions. And Mario's Dimension also has a lot of parallel universes revealed in Color Splash. Which would contextually also be parallel dimensions within the SPM Universe. We don't consider Thanos "Heart of the Universe" a Low 2-C structure just because it said "Universe" as opposed to "Outerverse" because there are other statements of said dimension in question containing things larger than a typical "Low 2-C" sized universe. SPM Universe may be called universe, but it contains a bunch of dimensions also called Universes and have Low 2-C stuff established in other games.

You 100% believe they are mistakes rather than correct translations, they don't objectively are, it's unlikely that they were mistakes in some of those texts in a way that recontextualizes the rest, the whole thing, unless it's a version of a Jap. guide saying the same, was written from scratch from knowledge & consultations, leaving no room for mistranslations, and it over & over again refers to the target being the universe and how it has dimensions in it, having the mistakes, if there was any, be absurdly sloppy.

I'm talking about the Knit picked usage of the word "Universe" combined with using conflicted translations with half of them being Google translate levels. Where as some of these are not only human translators, but English creators that worked with the same Japanese creators to write the story.

No, no, the worlds are just one universe, Mario's universe is another. Nothing states that all that is 1 universe.

Mario's Dimension is treated as the same context as Sammer Kingdom or DaiUchu and the rest of the 7 worlds, not the entirety of all worlds which actually contains Mario's Dimension.

Wouldn't really matter but would you show that? I'm pretty sure it's just his Kingdom.

That still assumes Mushroom Kingdom is some country sized pocket reality despite the fact that it's located in an actual universe.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

And now, I need to get ready for work soon.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

So mario universe contains multiple dimensions?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Medeus. I think that we should use your interpretation above.

Would you be willing to modify the explanations in our Mario pages accordingly, or possibly write an explanation blog post that we can link to in them?