So Long 2-B Mario... (Potentially BIG downgrade for SPM feats)

[Eficiente]

That is still knit picking the word "Universe"; literally your only proof for labeling it as Low 2-C is that it says "Destroy the Universe and it's many dimensions". 2-B sized universes are a thing if 1-A sized universes are a thing; and it's already explained via other statements regarding those dimensions. Again, complexity of structure > name of structure.

I don't disacknowledge it the crazy things fiction can do, I don't find it met the standards needed for it. That is not my only proof of it, it was stated that the universe is made up of those dimensions, a dimension isn't inhereditary universe-sized nor is that likely to be the case, a universe is universe-sized and so those dimensions making up the universe do just that, very simple. You again use what-ifs, fiction having things like 2-B sized universes and 1-A sized universes is just seems like an excuse.

We have proof at least on of those internal dimensions is a Universe in itself, and the other dimensions are literally next to it/parallel to it.

1 is around that size, yes. You don't really have a reason to believe being next to it/parallel to it holds any relevance for their size given what we know of them. Even if they were all universe-sized, it wouldn't be 2-C just like a bunch of stars doesn't make destroying them 4-A if they're not as far away from each other as real stars are. If someone were to cut the universe into 2 and say "The universe is made up of this half and this other half, and there's some space between them" then destroying both isn't 2-C, if both grew to be universe-sized at the moment they were cut then it's still not 2-C, with that evidence alone.

This goes against the rule that should have been put in place; and I have had multiple staff members as well as regular users agreeing with that being added back when the universe page was being made recently. Still having only one that's High 3-A or Low 2-C while the rest are only 4-A to 3-B makes 0 sense whatsoever.

It doesn't really as the rule doesn't amount for that context, heck if we had a page for standards on planet sizes and I were to do that thing I said

If I make a game that takes place in a planet divided into many worlds that are like cities or something but 1 world is called "the world" and spans over the rest of the planet then that 1 world is bigger

you would recognize that no, the other worlds aren't planet sized, but the comparison doesn't reach you as being applicable, and the why of it can't be explained. We can have a private conversation with those users.

Actually, later statements would imply Mario's Dimension is also made up into that "Same Universe"

I would like to see that.

And Bleck went to Mario's Dimension to awaken it, and it's conceptually the same level plane as all those other dimensions.

I'm not sure if I follow you on that conceptually, but them being alike makes sense as that universe isn't bizarre or alien by Mario standards,

All of this just tells me you haven't played any of the games. The Mushroom Kingdom is located in an actual universe; it's located in the Milky Way Galaxy and the Milky Way Galaxy is located in a legitimate universe.

Where the heck did I say that the Mushroom Kingdom isn't in a universe? That reply seems literally random, can you tell me what you understood from what I said there? It mattered.

Furthermore, Flipside/Flopside still has the Mushroom Kingdom as one of it's many dimensions connected interdimensional. Calling Mushroom Kingdom a country sized pocket reality, which is what this section is trying to imply is factually incorrect. It's best described that the Mushroom Kingdom is also located in another Universe; with "DaiUchu" also being one of those parallel universes that's different from the outer space above the mushroom kingdom.

Again, you are projecting things unsaid, don't say I called the Mushroom Kingdom a country sized pocket reality if in the text I wrote that you quoted I didn't, I can't work like this.

It is not headcanon, because these are all established facts made obvious throughout the Mario franchise.

If logic similar to the one used through this thread was used then I'm suspicious.

When someone makes a batch of cookies; all of them are comparable in size. There's not one cookie infinitely larger than the rest of the batch put together.

Same with putting marbles in a bag, no one would put one marble infinitely larger than all the rest in the same bag. It's not a low standard but common sense; and arguing otherwise is 2 + 2 =/= 4 levels of misinformation.

I fear to criticize and say how wrong I think that is. Any example can make it look like they all have to be of the same size or that they don't have to. Ex. A broken cookie doesn't have all its parts be of the same size, putting marbles in different bags with no order can make each bag have any amount of them. The dimensions make up the universe, the settings they have are different for each, one of those settings is outer space, that is more than enough of a reason to be likely that they don't share the same size.

Actually, the American version is the version released first technically speaking. It could be seen as the original from that fact alone. And the fact of the matter is, both the English team and Japanese team worked on the story together; it's not like one of them worked on it and the other simply attempted to translate it. Which is a lot more than I can say for other Japanese to English works.

Neat as that might be, it's trivia, we don't really know if, nor is it likely, that they put more effort to the English version and had it held more detailed, valid versions of the plot. If it's the "og/original version" then sure, technically by realize date it is, but the connotation goes in hopes to be used on the version made by people who made the game in their country, same with anything one would reasonably believe it's the og version of something.

What I said about the English version still applies, and it's kind of a double edge argument to point out relevance in America for this with what American guides had to say.

American version is not only the most reliably accessible, it's also the 1st release. And thus could be seen as the original. But still, that doesn't disprove my point that the Japanese version is too flexible and just has neutral statements left and right where as the English version is the only static version really combined with it being more original. So it is relevant.

Those neutral statements do get disproved with more context, as any would, it's just that that got dismissed by invalid reasons.

Both the Mushroom Kingdom, and DaiUchu are included. Also, Light World and Dark World being parallel to each other is still a good reason to call both of those universes. And again, you keep saying you aren't ignoring what Executor is saying; but the fact of the matter is, you still are. You keep saying "It says Universe, it doesn't say multiverse, so it cannot factually be higher than Low 2-C". Super Paper Mario takes place in a Multiverse sized Universe and in the context of Super Paper Mario, Universe when spoken by Merlon means the Multiverse. DaiUchu which means the Universe of course only refers to a single universe. Universe in various other Mario games refers to Mario's Dimension specifically. But when describing the Void; clearly an interdimensional void devouring all existence including a universe containing many universe sized dimensions; this is a perfect example of universe meaning multiverse. I already took the other statements into account but again. I don't need to keep arguing in circles.

Pretty sure Mushroom Kingdom is just the name of the Mushroom Kingdom, and the rest of the universe simply isn't named, only that popular location that matters. Can you elaborate about Light World and Dark World? The rest is ridiculous, it not a perfect example of universe meaning multiverse but a perfect example of people claiming those sort of things w/o the evidence needed for it.

And there's still more than one universe being effected anyway that Merlon himself is fully aware of, so it cannot simply be Low 2-C, it has to be 2-C or above. But with all context considered, effecting the multiverse is most reliable.

The thing does end up being 2-C, with the prophecy of what it would do, narration and guide telling us a bit less.

Yes it does, others proved that Mario's Dimension is just another Low 2-C sized dimension within the SPM Universe, and so is DaiUchu and many other dimensions. And Mario's Dimension also has a lot of parallel universes revealed in Color Splash. Which would contextually also be parallel dimensions within the SPM Universe. We don't consider Thanos "Heart of the Universe" a Low 2-C structure just because it said "Universe" as opposed to "Outerverse" because there are other statements of said dimension in question containing things larger than a typical "Low 2-C" sized universe. SPM Universe may be called universe, but it contains a bunch of dimensions also called Universes and have Low 2-C stuff established in other games.

I saw no one prove that "Mario's Dimension" is just another Low 2-C sized dimension within the SPM Universe, only that it's nearby as it's connected by the space between dimensions. Thanos erasing the universe as in time and space too was Low 2-C, but messing with Tier 1 beings was on that level. Only one of those dimensions is called a universe, the others aren't likely to have the same size and Mario's universe isn't part of it.

You can't just say "And Mario's Dimension also has a lot of parallel universes revealed in Color Splash. Which would contextually also be parallel dimensions within the SPM Universe" and expect for it to matter, while fiction can have a universe have inside other universes in a way that makes destroying the outside universe 2-C, it can also simply be lower if those other universes are inside something less durable from the outside, like a universe inside an item having the item have the same durabiity as it appears to have rather than that of a whole universe.

I'm talking about the Knit picked usage of the word "Universe" combined with using conflicted translations with half of them being Google translate levels. Where as some of these are not only human translators, but English creators that worked with the same Japanese creators to write the story.

You can't really criticize someone for saying that universe means universe rather than some warped meaning that to work needs to grab in other things and interpret them in ways I have reasons to point out they're wrong. Don't appeal to vagueness calling them conflicted translations, we know the meanings it can't have that don't make sense (Ex. "Everything in the world [Sekai] will be destroyed"), we know the meanings it can have that say the same but vary a bit in redaction (Ex. "All worlds/All of the worlds [Sekai] will be destroyed"), and the guide fits to them, what is even to criticize about the translations knowing this? You may not like them, but it's not like they can support 2-B if they were translated with 100% precision & so it matters to say that they're Google translated.

Mario's Dimension is treated as the same context as Sammer Kingdom or DaiUchu and the rest of the 7 worlds, not the entirety of all worlds which actually contains Mario's Dimension.

I don't know what do you mean by "treated as the same context as", take your time, but can you give me all the info you have to say this?

That still assumes Mushroom Kingdom is some country sized pocket reality despite the fact that it's located in an actual universe.

No I meant the Mushroom Kingdom being a place as are most of those other worlds/dimensions, not that the Mushroom Kingdom, alone, is a reality. It's simple and all makes sense, most of those other dimensions (Minus the one that's outer space) are places, they're connected, the Mushroom Kingdom is a place too and is connected, there is nothing remotely illogical about this, nor something that points to the idea that the kingdom isn't part of the Mario universe due to this information. I have no idea what connotations you gave to this dimensions being "parallel" to each other and "next to each other", but it's not in line with the meanings of the words parallel and next, in their uses it simply can be that things parallel or next to each other are equal in size or other aspects, but not objectively nor always.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I see we're still arguing over interpretations, huh.

I'm personally flabbergasted at how people can still support 2-B after all the information I found. People are trying their damned hardest to justify keeping our current ratings and the fact they have to try so hard and explain their reasonings in long paragraphs is very telling as to which side has more assumptions than the other.

What happened to Occam's Razor? All the context to prove these worlds are connected and take place in a single universe and timeline? Was all of what I said ignored in favor of propagating this damn "sekai" translation and whether it means universes or not? Is this seriously the only thing that's relevant?

Yeah, I knew this thread was gonna be full of the same arguments. Nothing said has done anything to discredit the other information I've found which supports it not being 2-B beyond trying to interpret words to fit a narrative that supports that rating.

How do other universes have the same tv show? How do NPCs travel to other universes when no other form of dimensional travel is known beyond the Doors which only appeared for Mario during the process of the game and fade away when he exits them? How do NPCs own a store in "another universe"? The Void still doesn't touch the Whoa Zone and I proved it's not part of the universe. Why does the cloud send you to a space that looks exactly like the space seen in Chapter 4 and show you a whole planet that Mario came from if that's a whole universe? Why does Chapter 7 refer to being under the Earth, as in underground if it's a "whole universe*? Why does Chapter 7 have a progression of you climbing up from the bottom of the earth to the high heavens (the sky) if it's a whole universe?

Look at the actual context and please explain to me why we are trying to go with the argument that requires a shit ton of assumptions to be made to even try to explain away all of these holes when the simpler argument that makes these all make sense is that it's one big dimension where all the worlds are located within? I genuinely don't get it. Mario is getting some big lenience here. I want Mario to be powerful as well but I can at least acknowledge when something doesn't add up and is kind of shaky after looking through everything.

Please remember Occam's Razor is what we usually use in these situations, guys.

Backgrounds in Mario games is not a good argument. Cragnons being cave people and a civilization stuck in the past means nothing when dinosaurs and cavemen and tribal people have existed within many Mario games at many points. The entire reason there's familiar enemies and stuff in this new dimension is BECAUSE Count Bleck sucked everyone in. They were literally at Bowser's Castle when it happened. These supporting arguments are so easily rebutted that I really find it strange people find the other side to have the better argument.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I still think Fox is making the most sense here overall, it genuinely doesn't seem like anything he's said has been properly refuted.

 

[AKM sama]

While there could be interpretations of higher ratings, it is based on "well, it could be". When dealing with these scenarios, we always go for the lower end. It could be, but it doesn't have to be more than the minimum amount necessary. For that, the evidence needs to be more solid. I still maintain my original view and Fox and Eficiente's arguments make more sense to me. It's pretty blatant with the japanese translations tbh.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What do you think, @DarkDragonMedeus ? Should we go with the AKM/Fox/Eficiente interpretation in lack of better options?

 

[Vietthai96]

I think my solution is better, due to both sides is all equally interpretation

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

So mario universe contains multiple dimensions?

Well, that depends because that's still a flexible statement. In other games, "Universe" specifically refers to Mario's Dimension; it's just "Consume the Universe" used in Prima that Universe refers to the multiverse containing many dimensions including Mario's.

I don't disacknowledge it the crazy things fiction can do, I don't find it met the standards needed for it. That is not my only proof of it, it was stated that the universe is made up of those dimensions, a dimension isn't inhereditary universe-sized nor is that likely to be the case, a universe is universe-sized and so those dimensions making up the universe do just that, very simple. You again use what-ifs, fiction having things like 2-B sized universes and 1-A sized universes is just seems like an excuse.

Even so, cherry picking 1 or 2 pieces my input that's otherwise backed up by other facts still doesn't disprove my argument. Instead of going over the entire argument. Still, it's not so much a "What If" but a "What If" that actually is backed up by the rest. It doesn't matter if the guide said "Universe" as opposed to "Multiverse" what matters is whether or not the "Many Dimensions" are Low 2-C sized individually which was already stated via other posts.

1 is around that size, yes. You don't really have a reason to believe being next to it/parallel to it holds any relevance for their size given what we know of them. Even if they were all universe-sized, it wouldn't be 2-C just like a bunch of stars doesn't make destroying them 4-A if they're not as far away from each other as real stars are. If someone were to cut the universe into 2 and say "The universe is made up of this half and this other half, and there's some space between them" then destroying both isn't 2-C, if both grew to be universe-sized at the moment they were cut then it's still not 2-C, with that evidence alone.

Again, all of that appears to be textbook example of the Golden Mean Fallacy. I remembered when some of us made the same type of mistake regarding a different series, and you don't even want to know what was said behind my back in the end of that thread. But still, if dimensions/worlds are parallel to each other, they exist within the same plane but don't intersect. And they would not be a dimensional axis different in size. And Parallel Universe definitely means universe. Besides, you already agreed with them being different bodies of space, but we still have process of elimination rules. For a certain setting, saying "Parallel world/dimension" has often meant, "It's either planet sized or Universe sized" with dimension specifically being evidence it has its own body of space. Followed by the "Body in space in question being large enough to contain a sun making it High 4-C at bare minimum" then. Planet level is something Point A made it possible but point B makes it impossible. High 4-C was something Point A already made it impossible despite point B making it possible, while 3-A/Low 2-C was something made possible by both points. Which was how 3-A got accepted via being supported by both points. The debate for Low 2-C Vs 2-C Vs 2-B is the same process here.

It doesn't really as the rule doesn't amount for that context, heck if we had a page for standards on planet sizes and I were to do that thing I said.

If I make a game that takes place in a planet divided into many worlds that are like cities or something but 1 world is called "the world" and spans over the rest of the planet then that 1 world is bigger

you would recognize that no, the other worlds aren't planet sized, but the comparison doesn't reach you as being applicable, and the why of it can't be explained. We can have a private conversation with those users.

Planets are a different context because we know how well planets vary in size and distance. But the distance between 2 or more universes/dimension cannot be calculated given the 4th spatial dimension is unknown in size if it's not infinite. And the next two are false equivalencies. Most people don't say "A different world" when they travel to different cities save for "Old World and New World", but that's flat earth level of old news. Here, all worlds are literally alternate dimensions that exist next to each other.

I would like to see that.

@Mephistus already did a while back

I'm not sure if I follow you on that conceptually, but them being alike makes sense as that universe isn't bizarre or alien by Mario standards,

It's one of the oldest tribe in the cosmos that existed alongside the Tribe of Ancients and it's where the Dark Prognosticus is located.

Where the heck did I say that the Mushroom Kingdom isn't in a universe? That reply seems literally random, can you tell me what you understood from what I said there? It mattered.

Again, you are projecting things unsaid, don't say I called the Mushroom Kingdom a country sized pocket reality if in the text I wrote that you quoted I didn't, I can't work like this.

You were the one who said, "It sounds like it's just the Mushroom Kingdom specifically is one of the worlds/dimensions that has a door in Flipside". But in Mushroom Kingdom is in the SPM "Universe" so would the rest of Mario's Dimension aka an entire Universe.

I fear to criticize and say how wrong I think that is. Any example can make it look like they all have to be of the same size or that they don't have to. Ex. A broken cookie doesn't have all its parts be of the same size, putting marbles in different bags with no order can make each bag have any amount of them. The dimensions make up the universe, the settings they have are different for each, one of those settings is outer space, that is more than enough of a reason to be likely that they don't share the same size.

None of these dimensions are broken; also forgot to add another detail. The Void grows with each moment that passes where it consumes another world/dimension. Another thing Mephistus brought up with one of the brothers statements. The Void appears to be the same size when you go to any of the realms and is the same size as when you are in Flipside/Flopside. Sammer Kingdom is the only dimension where it's bigger. And considering it's the same size as DaiUchu's edge. That would also mean all the other dimensions are as far away from the Void as that edge. Despite Flipside/Flopside being on the exact opposite ends of each other. I think it's save to say the 5th dimensional axis (4th spatial dimension) all those other dimensions are the same distance as Flipside/Flopside with Sammer being a might closer than the others.

Neat as that might be, it's trivia, we don't really know if, nor is it likely, that they put more effort to the English version and had it held more detailed, valid versions of the plot. If it's the "og/original version" then sure, technically by realize date it is, but the connotation goes in hopes to be used on the version made by people who made the game in their country, same with anything one would reasonably believe it's the og version of something.

What I said about the English version still applies, and it's kind of a double edge argument to point out relevance in America for this with what American guides had to say

Released dates are listed here. North American April 9th, and Japan April 19th. Also, both the guides and the games were things both teams worked together on. Both versions are trying to support each other even if that may look difficult via language barriers. But if "All countries are going to see their own as originals" and this is an American English website. Then that just tells me to use the NA version.

Pretty sure Mushroom Kingdom is just the name of the Mushroom Kingdom, and the rest of the universe simply isn't named, only that popular location that matters. Can you elaborate about Light World and Dark World? The rest is ridiculous, it not a perfect example of universe meaning multiverse but a perfect example of people claiming those sort of things w/o the evidence needed for it.

Mushroom Kingdom kind of has the same issues as Hyrule; sometimes it refers to the Kingdom of Hyrule, while other times refers to the Light World. Mushroom Kingdom doesn't always refer to just the kingdom, but people from other dimensions often use it to describe the universe of Mario's origin. So I'd take it as a neutral statement at worst if I were you. And I already elaborated in the post above on Light World Vs Dark World. But a recap.

• Mario's Dimension is just another dimension; meaning either it's smaller if SPM's size is only Low 2-C. Likewise, it's much larger all the way up to 2-B if Mario's Dimension and its various parallel universes are Low 2-C sized individually
• Mario's Dimension is clearly Low 2-C sized whether or not it's next to SPM's Universe and all its dimensions put together and not within it. But is clearly effected by the void given the origins. Dimension even says "No world is safe" implying Mario's Dimension is not either.
• Point A makes 2-C impossible but supports either Low 2-C or 2-B
• Point B makes 2-C the bare minimum making Low 2-C impossible
• Both points make 2-B possible, so it's the one I agree with.

The thing does end up being 2-C, with the prophecy of what it would do, narration and guide telling us a bit less.

Not going to argue in circles with this in the same post.

I saw no one prove that "Mario's Dimension" is just another Low 2-C sized dimension within the SPM Universe, only that it's nearby as it's connected by the space between dimensions. Thanos erasing the universe as in time and space too was Low 2-C, but messing with Tier 1 beings was on that level. Only one of those dimensions is called a universe, the others aren't likely to have the same size and Mario's universe isn't part of it.

You can't just say "And Mario's Dimension also has a lot of parallel universes revealed in Color Splash. Which would contextually also be parallel dimensions within the SPM Universe" and expect for it to matter, while fiction can have a universe have inside other universes in a way that makes destroying the outside universe 2-C, it can also simply be lower if those other universes are inside something less durable from the outside, like a universe inside an item having the item have the same durabiity as it appears to have rather than that of a whole universe.

I already went over that, and I clearly saw Mephistus say the same thing. The Void was also visible in Mario's Dimension before the party was taken to Flipside in the same context. And Peach clearly sees the Mushroom Kingdom/Mario's Dimension as another world/dimension as Sammer Kingdom. The rest sounds very Non-Sequitur. Also, to prove Mario's Dimension is also just another dimension to travel to via flipside. There's the fact that Merlon is an occurring character in Paper Mario. He traveled to the Mushroom Kingdom before, and he also traveled to Rogueport; which is a different country but same planet/dimension as the Mushroom kingdom that he clearly all saw as part of just one world/dimension. And there's still no debunk that those who die in Mushroom Kingdom also go to World 7. Which it makes no sense if an Afterlife is specifically for two universes; it has to be either for one, or the rest of the multiverse. Or Mario's Dimension is the same universe, which it clearly isn't just all one universe. So Mario's Dimension is either inside the SPM Universe, or there is a big multiverse being effected, or both. I'd go with Mario's Dimension just being another parallel dimension effected by the void and thus the dimensions are universes.

And Mario's Dimension also clearly has a lot of canon parallel universes, so this still adds more context to the void being multiversal.

You can't really criticize someone for saying that universe means universe rather than some warped meaning that to work needs to grab in other things and interpret them in ways I have reasons to point out they're wrong. Don't appeal to vagueness calling them conflicted translations, we know the meanings it can't have that don't make sense (Ex. "Everything in the world [Sekai] will be destroyed"), we know the meanings it can have that say the same but vary a bit in redaction (Ex. "All worlds/All of the worlds [Sekai] will be destroyed"), and the guide fits to them, what is even to criticize about the translations knowing this? You may not like them, but it's not like they can support 2-B if they were translated with 100% precision & so it matters to say that they're Google translated.

As Executor said, while Sekai in Google Translate just means World. If you looked up Sekai in a Japanese dictionary, you're going to get definitions that says "All Time and Space" or "Everything that exists" same with the definition of Japanese words for Universe. Also, Executor is by far the most genuinely knowledgable user in general who commented here; he's someone like comparable to Ultima Reality and DontTalkDT in terms of being knowledgeable in debating. So I trust him when he says there's not one single definition that should forcefully be above others. Though human translators are more reliable than Google Translate, which is one most OP translations rely on. Japanese version is too neutral altogether where as the English version is the specific version that Japanese loosely supports. But actually we often lean towards English localization when the last resort calls for it.

I don't know what do you mean by "treated as the same context as", take your time, but can you give me all the info you have to say this?

I'll let Mephistus answer that question if he comes back, otherwise I can just scroll up and quote it later.

No I meant the Mushroom Kingdom being a place as are most of those other worlds/dimensions, not that the Mushroom Kingdom, alone, is a reality. It's simple and all makes sense, most of those other dimensions (Minus the one that's outer space) are places, they're connected, the Mushroom Kingdom is a place too and is connected, there is nothing remotely illogical about this, nor something that points to the idea that the kingdom isn't part of the Mario universe due to this information. I have no idea what connotations you gave to this dimensions being "parallel" to each other and "next to each other", but it's not in line with the meanings of the words parallel and next, in their uses it simply can be that things parallel or next to each other are equal in size or other aspects, but not objectively nor always.

I already explained in much better detail earlier, but Merlon desribes the entire dimensions as worlds, not just some randomly specific locations within the dimension.

I see we're still arguing over interpretations, huh.

I'm personally flabbergasted at how people can still support 2-B after all the information I found. People are trying their damned hardest to justify keeping our current ratings and the fact they have to try so hard and explain their reasonings in long paragraphs is very telling as to which side has more assumptions than the other.

Calm down, I kind of thought you left the thread a while back and said you weren't going to debate anymore. And the condescending attitude isn't necessary.

What happened to Occam's Razor? All the context to prove these worlds are connected and take place in a single universe and timeline? Was all of what I said ignored in favor of propagating this damn "sekai" translation and whether it means universes or not? Is this seriously the only thing that's relevant?

Yeah, I knew this thread was gonna be full of the same arguments. Nothing said has done anything to discredit the other information I've found which supports it not being 2-B beyond trying to interpret words to fit a narrative that supports that rating.

I'm going to have to go ahead and paraphrase what DontTalkDT said about using Occam's Razor. All it is is just a simple-minded person's excuse for admitting they haven't really done their homework and relying on the most basically generic answer to a topic that really isn't as simple. And multiversal cosmologies are inherently meant to have some complexity.

Also, Executor already went over that the "Different universes that are universe sized" inherently are different timelines. Especially if Mario's Dimension is just another one of them.

How do other universes have the same tv show? How do NPCs travel to other universes when no other form of dimensional travel is known beyond the Doors which only appeared for Mario during the process of the game and fade away when he exits them? How do NPCs own a store in "another universe"? The Void still doesn't touch the Whoa Zone and I proved it's not part of the universe. Why does the cloud send you to a space that looks exactly like the space seen in Chapter 4 and show you a whole planet that Mario came from if that's a whole universe? Why does Chapter 7 refer to being under the Earth, as in underground if it's a "whole universe*? Why does Chapter 7 have a progression of you climbing up from the bottom of the earth to the high heavens (the sky) if it's a whole universe?

Actually, Flipside/Flopside does canonically have dimensional doors all over the place, it's just that there's only 7 that you enter through in gameplay. Plenty of those people also know who the Ancients are and all their history of crafting multiple dimensions. What TV show? More importantly, I don't see why some generic NPCs that have little relevance to the game's plot should override the numerous lore statements more relevant to the game's plot. Plus, interdimensional broadways are a thing, especially if hosted from a dimension meant to literally be a interdimensional gateway to other realms. It's not like 4Kids TMNT is only one universe just because so many minor characters know about Battle Nexus. The large planet containing the entire afterlife isn't the whole universe itself, only it is located in one. Having a starry background similar to World 4's doesn't make it the same universe as World 4; that's still asking me to prove a negative. The planet looking like one doesn't matter if that's just a generic looking planet to begin with and easter eggs and cameos mean little. That's like saying Zelda, Mario, and Kirby are the same universe because cameos.

Look at the actual context and please explain to me why we are trying to go with the argument that requires a shit ton of assumptions to be made to even try to explain away all of these holes when the simpler argument that makes these all make sense is that it's one big dimension where all the worlds are located within? I genuinely don't get it. Mario is getting some big lenience here. I want Mario to be powerful as well but I can at least acknowledge when something doesn't add up and is kind of shaky after looking through everything.

Actually, the people arguing against the ratings are the ones actually relying on a lot more assumptions. And making more use of "Arguing out of ignorance" than the people supporting 2-B.

What is more reliable, the people who actually made the games, know what they want to do and say and that is to capitalize of the various multiversal cosmology theories and join the fun in all that? Or people who don't actually know Japanese and often pretends to? People who literally blocked every person they ever debated on discord even people who were genuinely trying to be polite and reasonable to him? Has a history of abusing Google translate and claiming they know the kanji or Japanese when they don't really? And someone who's known for having an anti-middle ground mindset where they're upset about Tier 1 proposals getting rejected and decided to just do a U-turn and do the opposite problem which was to downgrade everything to Low 2-C?

None of those in the previous paragraph are my viewpoints but rather feedback many other users told me about. Because accusing people isn't my role, but some people know more than I do based on personal experiences. No offense intended to you Fox, but plenty of users have vouched that you often appear here more so based of personal status rather than who is objectively correct.

Still, the English localization does capture the full intentions of the creators, and that it's the most multiversal game Mario has gotten yet. And it is hinted that World 2 has all these string theory symbols as its starry skies. And World 1 having some other scientific mathematical formulas like E = MC^2 and many other formulas in the starry skies.

Please remember Occam's Razor is what we usually use in these situations, guys.

Backgrounds in Mario games is not a good argument. Cragnons being cave people and a civilization stuck in the past means nothing when dinosaurs and cavemen and tribal people have existed within many Mario games at many points. The entire reason there's familiar enemies and stuff in this new dimension is BECAUSE Count Bleck sucked everyone in. They were literally at Bowser's Castle when it happened. These supporting arguments are so easily rebutted that I really find it strange people find the other side to have the better argument.

Again, Occam's Razor isn't a good argument for any debate. The "Dinosaurs living together with sci-fi technology" is common in fiction in general; look at Dragon Ball. Doesn't hold any weight to the topic. Actually, some of Bowser's Minions going to the after life were do to getting stomped by a plumber in the NPC dialogues, not from Bleck's Void. The ones teleported from Bleck's Void where actually the ones who were seen in Bleck's castle, not the Underwhere.

While there could be interpretations of higher ratings, it is based on "well, it could be". When dealing with these scenarios, we always go for the lower end. It could be, but it doesn't have to be more than the minimum amount necessary. For that, the evidence needs to be more solid. I still maintain my original view and Fox and Eficiente's arguments make more sense to me. It's pretty blatant with the japanese translations tbh.

The new points are still unaddressed. The fact that one, the English localization is actually the original as opposed to the Japanese. The Japanese doesn't just say, "Well it could be" it's one or the other where as the actual original strait up says it is a big multiverse. The evidence is solid and the translations are not "Blatant". Mephistus also provided a lot of strong translations that are better than the OP's that also support the English localizations being reliable on top of it. But again, if English is the original, than translation or not is moot. Everyone should learn to be more like Executor N0, he was by far the least biased debater on either side and while he mostly seemed neutral in terms of motivation and wasn't really picking a side, the words he said basically seem to favor the 2-B actually having the stronger ground.

I think my solution is better, due to both sides is all equally interpretation

Only because I've been exhausted with the topic already repeated multiple times for far too many years, but At least 2-C, possibly 2-B is honestly something I wouldn't mind anymore. But that's the lowest I'm willing to allow.

 

[Bobsican]

While we often default to the "lower" interpretation by default, not only this is inappropiate for a language that heavily relies on context (Japanese), the ones arguing for the downgrade are also ignoring the more direct implications the English version gives when such language being inherently more explicit without coming off as weird, for instance, several languages lack inherent gender-specific words for certain contexts, so trying to parallel to English a phrase that would normally be translated as "a dog" in Spanish as "a (male) dog" just for "accuracy" ends up as pretty unnatural to say the least. Because of this I'd say the English version is pretty usable to get more precise context on the intent of the JP version for our purposes, as DDM has said. Simply put, English has way more direct terms inherently out of its semantics in vocabulary compared to Japanese.

Therefore, I think anything lower than 2-B is too questionable as the plot kinda breaks if it was Low 2-C, at least not without considerable assumptions, which are exactly what we'd be avoiding for proper indexing and all.

 

[Antvasima]

Medeus and Bobsican make good sense to me.

Thank you for helping out, Medeus. I think that we should use your interpretation above.

Would you be willing to modify the explanations in our Mario pages accordingly, or possibly write an explanation blog post that we can link to in them?

So about this...

 

[Eficiente]

But still, if dimensions/worlds are parallel to each other

For a certain setting, saying "Parallel world/dimension" has often meant, "It's either planet sized or Universe sized"

We can talk about. This unspoken rule of a parallel realms making them the size of what they're parallel to is flawed, it is something made up and you can't send anyone to an authority in English stating that that's how things are. It has a meaning that they're parallel, but that isn't always that they have the same size, this worlds being parallel can simply refer to the many other connections they have.

Look it the other way around, if you were to divide a universe in parts that still make up the universe, would you dim wrong if people inside were to call this parts "parallel" to each other? No, that would be stupid, to insist that parallel always speaks of size even when other connections exist too to categorize them as parallel is dogmatism, it doesn't have a reason to be.

, they exist within the same plane but don't intersect.

This has nothing to do with size, and I don't think they said it in the game anyway.

And Parallel Universe definitely means universe.

Yes but this aren't said to be parallel universes. This is the equivalent of trying to apply science to things that clearly don't use science, do whatever, & throw in some scientific values to seem somewhat mature and not look too ridiculous, it's nonsense. Anything just using the word parallel doesn't entitle it being the same size as if they said parallel universe when we have reasons to believe that's not the case.

Planets are a different context because we know how well planets vary in size and distance. But the distance between 2 or more universes/dimension cannot be calculated given the 4th spatial dimension is unknown in size if it's not infinite.

There isn't a different context as dimensions vary in size too and so a comparison can be made, if a comparison couldn't be made then sure, but that's just incredulity on how dimensions can vary in size. The distance between 2 or more realities doesn't really matter and so there isn't much of a reason to bring them up. In the case of this words the distance between them is yet another world, nothing incomprehensible.

And the next two are false equivalencies. Most people don't say "A different world" when they travel to different cities save for "Old World and New World", but that's flat earth level of old news. Here, all worlds are literally alternate dimensions that exist next to each other.

Anything can be a world in a videogame.

You were the one who said, "It sounds like it's just the Mushroom Kingdom specifically is one of the worlds/dimensions that has a door in Flipside". But in Mushroom Kingdom is in the SPM "Universe" so would the rest of Mario's Dimension aka an entire Universe.

I don't remember saying that, but in the context of those worlds/dimensions being parts of what makes up a universe with doors connecting to them the Mushroom Kingdom being some "world/dimension" too to those doors can simply mean it's a place like those other places, not unlike say, Sammer's Kingdom. I took function over accuracy, and that's bad, you turned it even more wrong by twisting the words and bringing it up as an unrelated way to stuff you're yet to reply.

None of these dimensions are broken

You miss the point and even if there were broken you would be claiming the same. That they would be broken would be they make up 1 thing and so they together would be the size of what they make up, but we already know and it was stated that they "make up the known universe", you just don't like comparisons and reasons that makes them be smaller than what you think is their size, w/o real reasons for it.

also forgot to add another detail. The Void grows with each moment that passes where it consumes another world/dimension. Another thing Mephistus brought up with one of the brothers statements. The Void appears to be the same size when you go to any of the realms and is the same size as when you are in Flipside/Flopside. Sammer Kingdom is the only dimension where it's bigger. And considering it's the same size as DaiUchu's edge. That would also mean all the other dimensions are as far away from the Void as that edge. Despite Flipside/Flopside being on the exact opposite ends of each other. I think it's save to say the 5th dimensional axis (4th spatial dimension) all those other dimensions are the same distance as Flipside/Flopside with Sammer being a might closer than the others.

I don't see how this matters.

Released dates are listed here. North American April 9th, and Japan April 19th. Also, both the guides and the games were things both teams worked together on. Both versions are trying to support each other even if that may look difficult via language barriers. But if "All countries are going to see their own as originals" and this is an American English website. Then that just tells me to use the NA version.

Ok but with all things said before, this is a neutral point to make.

The Void was also visible in Mario's Dimension before the party was taken to Flipside in the same context.

Yes, it doesn't really matter.

And Peach clearly sees the Mushroom Kingdom/Mario's Dimension as another world/dimension as Sammer Kingdom.

Why would she not? This doesn't prove it's part of the SPM universe, it's just another place.

There's the fact that Merlon is an occurring character in Paper Mario. He traveled to the Mushroom Kingdom before, and he also traveled to Rogueport; which is a different country but same planet/dimension as the Mushroom kingdom that he clearly all saw as part of just one world/dimension.

Can you show how he clearly sees this all as one world/dimension? Unless you mean those parts in Mario's universe being that.

And there's still no debunk that those who die in Mushroom Kingdom also go to World 7. Which it makes no sense if an Afterlife is specifically for two universes; it has to be either for one, or the rest of the multiverse.

For all the setting the game shows it can very well be an afterlife for both universes, not necessarily for the whole multiverse, a concept the game doesn't name. Also what is the evidence that people from Mario's universe go there again?

As Executor said, while Sekai in Google Translate just means World. If you looked up Sekai in a Japanese dictionary, you're going to get definitions that says "All Time and Space" or "Everything that exists" same with the definition of Japanese words for Universe. Also, Executor is by far the most genuinely knowledgable user in general who commented here; he's someone like comparable to Ultima Reality and DontTalkDT in terms of being knowledgeable in debating. So I trust him when he says there's not one single definition that should forcefully be above others. Though human translators are more reliable than Google Translate, which is one most OP translations rely on. Japanese version is too neutral altogether where as the English version is the specific version that Japanese loosely supports. But actually we often lean towards English localization when the last resort calls for it.

That a word can have the same meaning as another word doesn't remove the former word's other meanings (especially primarily ones) and connotations on how society uses it. There is nothing to translate on what an American guide has to say when it's not translated from a Jap. guide but made from 0, if this Sekai (plural) were all universes then they would be called universes, they would not be called something lesser like worlds or dimensions (which vary in size), and they wouldn't all make up the known universe because they would already be that by themselves & by each of them, you can't grab yourself from that excuse simply because it's not valid.

 

[Executor_N0]

That a word can have the same meaning as another word doesn't remove the former word's other meanings (especially primarily ones) and connotations on how society uses it. There is nothing to translate on what an American guide has to say when it's not translated from a Jap. guide but made from 0, if this Sekai (plural) were all universes then they would be called universes, they would not be called something lesser like worlds or dimensions (which vary in size), and they wouldn't all make up the known universe because they would already be that by themselves & by each of them, you can't grab yourself from that excuse simply because it's not valid.

I'm here only to clarify somethings from translation, and there's nothing on "lesser" in Sekai. The definition of "Sekai" is the same definition of "Uchu", both are made of two kanjis that means "All of time and space", the difference is just their origin. The fact that Sekai has different uses other than "all of time and space" is no different from "Uchu" also having other uses like "outerspace". There's nothing inherently "lesser" in using "Sekai" compared to "Uchu", it's all context for both words.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Executor.

 

[Eficiente]

I'm here only to clarify somethings from translation, and there's nothing on "lesser" in Sekai. The definition of "Sekai" is the same definition of "Uchu", both are made of two kanjis that means "All of time and space", the difference is just their origin. The fact that Sekai has different uses other than "all of time and space" is no different from "Uchu" also having other uses like "outerspace". There's nothing inherently "lesser" in using "Sekai" compared to "Uchu", it's all context for both words.

That's intreduvility, Sekai is mostly used as world and its use here can't be pinpointed to mean universe while it can be pinpointed to mean world when those worlds make up the known universe, meanwhile we don't have that issue with Uchu as it's not being used, but yet in America those were simply said to be worlds or dimensions, which do not objectively mean universe, and the American guide not translated from a Jap. guide but made from 0 used the word universe as what those worlds/dimensions/Sekai make up. To not see what this means is just being stubborn.

 

[Executor_N0]

That's intreduvility, Sekai is mostly used as world and its use here can't be pinpointed to mean universe while it can be pinpointed to mean world when those worlds make up the known universe, meanwhile we don't have that issue with Uchu as it's not being used, but yet in America those were simply said to be worlds or dimensions, which do not objectively mean universe, and the American guide not translated from a Jap. guide but made from 0 used the word universe as what those worlds/dimensions/Sekai make up. To not see what this means is just being stubborn.

What I said was just about you saying "something lesser" as if there was an inherent value that directly puts universe as meaning X while world has meaning Y, it's always about the context. I didn't state anything directly about being valid or not, I was just saying that there was no inherent difference between "World" and "Universe" that makes one lesser than the other, in the context of this very thread I do think that we have a lot of vagueness and I wouldn't be in favor of using the highest interpretation because people have been conditioned by the English localization, but that wasn't what I was talking about.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we apply a combination of Medeus', Bobsicans', and Executor's interpretations then?

 

[Vietthai96]

The only thing i disagree with this thread is using narrative reason as the main evidences.
1. It should be used as secondary, supportive argument
2. Even if somehow this get past, other verses can also complain that why Mario can have highest level of intepretation based on narrative reason but we are not, etc......

That why i proposed At least 2-C, possibly 2-B. It is an in-between rating, it doesn't break narrative reason, at the same time we also not using narrative reason to give a solid rating which somehow can make peoples think Mario get special treatment.....

But well this is my opinion....^^

 

[Bobsican]

1: Not necessarily, again, we can't treat JP in the same way we'd treat English, especially when we can use the latter to pinpoint details more precisely for our purposes out of a lack of language limitations without sounding weird. This is like how novels tend to be more explicit than a videogame in terms of what's going on, for example, narration flow just can go more explicit in one than the other without coming as out of place.

2: This happens always and more often than not that sort of arguments are used incorrectly. In this case not only we have statements confirming that the translation process renders the English version effectively usable for our purposes, there's also how the 2-B details are remarked too much in the English version to be ignored just out of incredulity in terms of the vagueness of the JP version that's already covered in the first point among other things, like, it's the entire plot, and it's not like Super Paper Mario is known as a game with very questionable translation practices by far to begin with.

 

[Antvasima]

Bobsican still makes sense to me here.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

(Has there been an agreed on verdict or something? Also Bump.)


Downgrading to 2-C to possible 2-B seems fine by me btw

 

[Antvasima]

So should we apply a combination of Medeus', Bobsicans', and Executor's interpretations then?

I would appreciate some input here.

 

[Eficiente]

As everything needed to said was said we should patiently wait for @AKM_sama and @Matthew_Schroeder to read the "new" stuff and evaluate.

 

[Lou_change]

Couldn't we look at other translations to find what is most consistent if Japanese is vague it seems to also include Spanish, French, German and Italian as languages if we can't find what is consistent.

 

[Executor_N0]

Couldn't we look at other translations to find what is most consistent if Japanese is vague it seems to also include Spanish, French, German and Italian as languages if we can't find what is consistent.

That would depend on the source of translations. Sometimes the game is translated to a certain language and other translations are based on that. For example, at Bandai of Japan they don't send a game to be translated from Japanese to Chinese, they send an English translation and the Chinese version is based on that. And of course this could depend on already existing localization tendencies from each country. Anyway, different official translations to "remove vagueness" could only really work if it isn't a central translation being made, if not, it's just localization from another localization, so the tendency to just maintain any setting changes is higher.

 

[Eficiente]

Other translations in other countries don't matter for a number of reasons, they can be translated from English as the language is far easier, they have no reason to matter to the people making the game and the English version doesn't even support 2-B as explained many times before.

 

[Vietthai96]

The reason we need to use Japanese language is due to two reasons:
1. It is sources material, thus have the most accurate informations, context for us to use
2. Japanese is a heavy contextual language and when translating game or manga or other japanese media translators will always translating the language to easier context for us to understand the lore, story, etc......however it lead to a simplified context due to the translator doesn't care much about it, they want to deliver the game in an easier form so plaer, reader,.... can easily understand the story, thus somewhat altering the original context in the process. However our wiki is vs debate platform focus on power scaling aspect so.......original context is what mattered

 

[Foxthefox1000]

If we're allowed to just use guides and English localizations, then I don't mind the ratings staying. But with that, I think we'd need to make an official rule for the verse because literally every major downgrade has happened because the English localizations didn't hold up in Japanese and because guides were deemed conflicting because there was no mention of a particular word or statement within the primary source of the games nor in other supplementary materials. If we're subscribing to the current beliefs we have, then there should be a note saying that we DO take English localizations as the priority for whatever reasons you guys are saying, and that there should be CRTs made only when major contradictions occur with different versions. But do I have to remind you all of the English mistranslation in the final game still? It's not reliable.

Granted, I think there's a pretty big difference between the versions in this case, but if others don't see it I'm clearly not gonna convince you, even though I'm still not convinced because all of the evidence stated by NPCs and how the worlds work implies they share the same spacetime. Dunno how you can argue against multiple "worlds" having the same tv show. That's literally the most blatant case that they're all connected. I've done nothing but provide more and more arguments and explanations and we still are going with headcanon "interpretation" of direct word usage. The Japanese is clearly different. The Japanese doesn't support all of these being other dimensions and full universes. The Japanese strictly does none of this, but because the English version does, let's forget every inconsistency and hole in the argument that they are universes/dimensions and take a very generous interpretation of the words used to support them being a whole universe and not connected to each other. The original SMB has another dimension in the parallel worlds. SMB2 has another dimension and deals with dreams, which we do consider universes. SMG has other worlds, NSMB has other worlds, Super Mario 3D land has other worlds/another dimension. Sunshine has other worlds. Super Mario 64 has other worlds/dimensions. Within the context of those games nothing says these other places are smaller. Nothing says they aren't comparable to the main universe and if nothing else are implied to be, but these are taking into account when? Never.

Yes, you can tear apart my arguments singularly (though I hesitate to really use the term "tear apart"), but when you compile all of them into a single argument they rely on less interpretations and more on general facts than the other argument, and form a very strong opposition to the current justifications we use for the rating.

Also idk if people forgot but the Dream Stone is also part of this CRT and I'm pretty sure most people found the counters lacking and seem to be more in support of downgrading it, so if nothing at least let's get something out of this thread and downgrade the Dream Stone and people who scale to it accordingly.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Also, if anyone can notify AKM Sama, Ryu if they're still around, and Armorchompy I'd like to hear their thoughts on this, as they were major factors for other threads involving Mario and I wonder what they think about all of this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We can talk about. This unspoken rule of a parallel realms making them the size of what they're parallel to is flawed, it is something made up and you can't send anyone to an authority in English stating that that's how things are. It has a meaning that they're parallel, but that isn't always that they have the same size, this worlds being parallel can simply refer to the many other connections they have.

Look it the other way around, if you were to divide a universe in parts that still make up the universe, would you dim wrong if people inside were to call this parts "parallel" to each other? No, that would be stupid, to insist that parallel always speaks of size even when other connections exist too to categorize them as parallel is dogmatism, it doesn't have a reason to be.

There is a staff thread ongoing. And it's not "Made up" it's basic geometry. It is still the definition of "Parallel" to exist on the same plane but not intersect. Finite sized realms cannot be parallel to infinite sized realms and 3-D objects cannot be parallel to 4-D object. Not going to believe that unless someone actually pulled off drawing a literal 3-D shape next to a 2-D shape on the same sheet of paper. And fancy aesthetics to resemble 3-D don't count, the drawing has to be physically higher dimensional.

This has nothing to do with size, and I don't think they said it in the game anyway.

It does actually. Explained above; same dimensional scale, similar shape. Infinite can never be same shape as a finite.

Yes but this aren't said to be parallel universes. This is the equivalent of trying to apply science to things that clearly don't use science, do whatever, & throw in some scientific values to seem somewhat mature and not look too ridiculous, it's nonsense. Anything just using the word parallel doesn't entitle it being the same size as if they said parallel universe when we have reasons to believe that's not the case.

They're called parallel worlds/dimensions and Mephistus brought up numerous scans with supporting evidence from Japanese translators. English localization also calls them alternate dimensions, so it is consistent. Furthermore, World 4 is still infinite sized and an entire universe. And the rest of them are still parallel.

There isn't a different context as dimensions vary in size too and so a comparison can be made, if a comparison couldn't be made then sure, but that's just incredulity on how dimensions can vary in size. The distance between 2 or more realities doesn't really matter and so there isn't much of a reason to bring them up. In the case of this words the distance between them is yet another world, nothing incomprehensible.

Dimensions that Aren't parallel vary in size yes; dimensions contained inside larger dimensions to be franc, but parallel ones that exist next to each other are meant to mirror each other in size and shape.

Anything can be a world in a videogame

Yes, other Mario games have the different kingdoms as worlds, but in Super Paper Mario specifically, all worlds are different dimensions.

I don't remember saying that, but in the context of those worlds/dimensions being parts of what makes up a universe with doors connecting to them the Mushroom Kingdom being some "world/dimension" too to those doors can simply mean it's a place like those other places, not unlike say, Sammer's Kingdom. I took function over accuracy, and that's bad, you turned it even more wrong by twisting the words and bringing it up as an unrelated way to stuff you're yet to reply.

That literally makes no sense to be honest. Dimensions within the "Universe" have Low 2-C statements individually and there are many of them. So there exists a 2-B sized universe.

You miss the point and even if there were broken you would be claiming the same. That they would be broken would be they make up 1 thing and so they together would be the size of what they make up, but we already know and it was stated that they "make up the known universe", you just don't like comparisons and reasons that makes them be smaller than what you think is their size, w/o real reasons for it.

There needs to be a point in order for me to miss one. But none of that sounds relevant; the dimensions throughout Super Paper Mario are parallel to each other as they all part of the same many worlds interpretation.

I don't see how this matters.

It matters a lot, because those dimensions are the same distance away as the interdimensional void.

Ok but with all things said before, this is a neutral point to make.

It means, both versions have valuable information to share about the expansive cosmology.

Yes, it doesn't really matter.

It matters because Mario's dimension is Low 2-C sized, the other dimensions are the same size and distance form the void, and the same Low 2-C sized dimension is just one of many dimensions in the Universe/Multiverse.

Why would she not? This doesn't prove it's part of the SPM universe, it's just another place.

Yes, both Sammer Kingdom's dimension and Mario's Dimension are same size and are interdimensionally just another door in Flipside/Flopside.

For all the setting the game shows it can very well be an afterlife for both universes, not necessarily for the whole multiverse, a concept the game doesn't name. Also what is the evidence that people from Mario's universe go there again?

That is one of the biggest golden egg fallacies I have ever heard tbh. What's so special about Mario's Dimension compared to all those other dimensions throughout the Mario multiverse that it shares an afterlife with Flipside and Sammer Kingdom but not every other dimension. Also, Goomba NPCs in worlds 7 talk about getting game overs when working for Bowser. Pretty sure someone else already posted it and don't like repeating posts.

That a word can have the same meaning as another word doesn't remove the former word's other meanings (especially primarily ones) and connotations on how society uses it. There is nothing to translate on what an American guide has to say when it's not translated from a Jap. guide but made from 0, if this Sekai (plural) were all universes then they would be called universes, they would not be called something lesser like worlds or dimensions (which vary in size), and they wouldn't all make up the known universe because they would already be that by themselves & by each of them, you can't grab yourself from that excuse simply because it's not valid.

Executor has already corrected this. Doesn't change the fact that the end point meaning is the same and nothing contradicts 2-B cosmology. And if anything, other details already support it.

If we're allowed to just use guides and English localizations, then I don't mind the ratings staying. But with that, I think we'd need to make an official rule for the verse because literally every major downgrade has happened because the English localizations didn't hold up in Japanese and because guides were deemed conflicting because there was no mention of a particular word or statement within the primary source of the games nor in other supplementary materials. If we're subscribing to the current beliefs we have, then there should be a note saying that we DO take English localizations as the priority for whatever reasons you guys are saying, and that there should be CRTs made only when major contradictions occur with different versions. But do I have to remind you all of the English mistranslation in the final game still? It's not reliable.

Secondary Canon sources should be allowed as long as they aren't intentionally saying the opposite of what is shown or stated. But if the main canon has nothing but neutral statements, secondary canon ends up becoming a primary source due to having specific details combined with lack of contradictions.

Also the way you say "Unreliable" is even more unreliable. Mephistis is actually looking into Japanese guidebooks albeit slowly. Can't verify how well it's going, but translating a lot of in game Japanese statements actually results in consistency with the English localizations, including the fact that the worlds have been called dimensions by Bestovius, as well as Merloo having the power to "Control Dimensions".

Granted, I think there's a pretty big difference between the versions in this case, but if others don't see it I'm clearly not gonna convince you, even though I'm still not convinced because all of the evidence stated by NPCs and how the worlds work implies they share the same spacetime. Dunno how you can argue against multiple "worlds" having the same tv show. That's literally the most blatant case that they're all connected. I've done nothing but provide more and more arguments and explanations and we still are going with headcanon "interpretation" of direct word usage. The Japanese is clearly different. The Japanese doesn't support all of these being other dimensions and full universes. The Japanese strictly does none of this, but because the English version does, let's forget every inconsistency and hole in the argument that they are universes/dimensions and take a very generous interpretation of the words used to support them being a whole universe and not connected to each other. The original SMB has another dimension in the parallel worlds. SMB2 has another dimension and deals with dreams, which we do consider universes. SMG has other worlds, NSMB has other worlds, Super Mario 3D land has other worlds/another dimension. Sunshine has other worlds. Super Mario 64 has other worlds/dimensions. Within the context of those games nothing says these other places are smaller. Nothing says they aren't comparable to the main universe and if nothing else are implied to be, but these are taking into account when? Never.

This is just a repetition of a bunch of "Whataboutisms" which could just be another way to say, "Maybe those feats need to be upgraded too". But should be handled individually. Furthermore, Mephistus brought up numerous other translations which I found far more reliable than the ones you gathered. Furthermore, StarSprite and DatOneWeeb keep pointing how you keep intentionally avoiding debate despite conceding to other points they brought up. It is not my job to dictate offside conflicts and people are allowed to block whomever they wish on Discord, but it's generally unwise to avoid them solely because they were rebutting your points.

But at the end of the day, World 4 is a Universe, all the other Worlds are parallel too it. They are different dimensions both American and Japanese text supports them. And they're even parallel to each other, and Mario's dimension is just another parallel dimension while still having more than enough details to be universal on its own.

 

[Antvasima]

DarkDragonMedeus makes good sense to me here as well.

So should we apply a combination of Medeus', Bobsicans', and Executor's interpretations then?

Is this fine to apply, @AKM sama ?

 

[Eficiente]

And it's not "Made up" it's basic geometry. It is still the definition of "Parallel" to exist on the same plane but not intersect. Finite sized realms cannot be parallel to infinite sized realms and 3-D objects cannot be parallel to 4-D object. Not going to believe that unless someone actually pulled off drawing a literal 3-D shape next to a 2-D shape on the same sheet of paper. And fancy aesthetics to resemble 3-D don't count, the drawing has to be physically higher dimensional.

It does actually. Explained above; same dimensional scale, similar shape. Infinite can never be same shape as a finite.

But none of that sounds relevant; the dimensions throughout Super Paper Mario are parallel to each other as they all part of the same many worlds interpretation.

It matters a lot, because those dimensions are the same distance away as the interdimensional void.

It matters because Mario's dimension is Low 2-C sized, the other dimensions are the same size and distance form the void, and the same Low 2-C sized dimension is just one of many dimensions in the Universe/Multiverse.

Yes, both Sammer Kingdom's dimension and Mario's Dimension are same size and are interdimensionally just another door in Flipside/Flopside.

It is made up, the distance you're talking about on infinite-sized realms and finite-sized is not something that can be measured because that doesn't exist, you can't force to apply "basic geometry" to it as you make how its rules apply. Sometimes fiction has the end of one universe be the start of another, other times the size inside a reality can vary but many realities look the same and have a similar distance from each other from the outside, other times the space between realities is another dimension and so the size of the realities themselves has nothing to do with the amount/distance of space between them, and so on, any of this cases would still mean this worlds/dimensions can be parallel and still don't have the same size, and in this context it does have another dimension as the space between worlds (This "inderdimensional void" is some place Mario can walk through). I would even go a step further and say that it's not just made up, but crazy, imagine going around claiming that realities that are said to be "parallel" always have a similar size if at least 1 classified as such is finite or infine, rather than whatever other meaning or conection the verse proves on their own those realities have.

To clarify again my position on this, this wouldn't be the same if being parallel worlds/something was the only thing we knew of (let alone if they were alt. version of the same reality on top of that), that's ok to me for it to mean they're universes, but in the context that they're worlds/dimensions that make up the known universes, no, in this case they're not universes and being parallel refers to said conection and/or being close to each other.

Not to mention how the space world being infinite can be a hyperbole as space is often said to be by even informative people w/o proof.

They're called parallel worlds/dimensions and Mephistus brought up numerous scans with supporting evidence from Japanese translators. English localization also calls them alternate dimensions, so it is consistent. Furthermore, World 4 is still infinite sized and an entire universe. And the rest of them are still parallel.

Don't repeat points and divert the matter, I don't imagine you seeing anything wrong with my reply to you saying "Parallel Universe definitely means universe", don't normalize tactics like that, people do learn from it.

Dimensions that Aren't parallel vary in size yes; dimensions contained inside larger dimensions to be franc, but parallel ones that exist next to each other are meant to mirror each other in size and shape.

This is similar to what I already went over, but with more of what I can confidently call crazy talk. Dimensions don't need to be contained inside larger dimensions to vary in size, people can make them be whatever size they feel like. If they were to mirror each other in size and shape then why cherry pick the meaning of this to only the dimenisons' sizes rather than they being alt. versions of the same place like the idea of "parallel universes" that you had as a point of reference? Why bother to bring up how parallel universe means universe when this applies its own this and why still apply that meaning of parallel? These are rhetorical questions, what I'm getting is that you work off misguided conclusions that are easily dismissable and work based on those biases.

That literally makes no sense to be honest.

Some dimension has doors to many places, to many parts of the universe, some place in another universe & more. Most of what the doors led to are worlds, anything can be a world in a videogame, and so you call what another door leads to a world too. It's wrong but it makes perfect sense.

Dimensions within the "Universe" have Low 2-C statements individually and there are many of them. So there exists a 2-B sized universe.

Yes, we already said to know this.

There needs to be a point in order for me to miss one.

The point was "Any example can make it look like they (dimensions) all have to be of the same size or that they don't have to.", I used an example of stuff broken and you said that this dimensions weren't broken. There objectively is a point to miss when "any example can be given" because you based your claims on unrelated beliefs, if your beliefs were another your examples would be others to fit that. Saying that you didn't miss the point is pretty much saying "I'm correct because you're wrong".

It means, both versions have valuable information to share about the expansive cosmology.

"All things said before" refers to the points about how the American version doesn't support the higher take.

That is one of the biggest golden egg fallacies I have ever heard tbh. What's so special about Mario's Dimension compared to all those other dimensions throughout the Mario multiverse that it shares an afterlife with Flipside and Sammer Kingdom but not every other dimension. Also, Goomba NPCs in worlds 7 talk about getting game overs when working for Bowser. Pretty sure someone else already posted it and don't like repeating posts.

Simply that it is an afterlife level part of this game and it's more fun the more people end up there. It has no reason to be some outrageous claim aside from feelings, it's just something they can do for this game. It's not some "out of all dimensions throughout the Mario multiverse only this one has this" situation, anyone can throw the same claim out of any wacky thing they come up with in a game and it will sort of sound like it's special and no other dimension should have the same to some people, but it's not something worth saying as nothing states other dimensions don't have the same, the topic is not talked about like that in-universe, and if even those were the only dimensions that had this who cares. If anything, it would be more special if all people in the multiverse would end up in this paper afterlife rather than people from a few realities.

Executor has already corrected this. Doesn't change the fact that the end point meaning is the same and nothing contradicts 2-B cosmology. And if anything, other details already support it.

The rest of the things we say go over this.

 

[Eficiente]

DarkDragonMedeus makes good sense to me here as well.

Is this fine to apply, @AKM sama ?

We still disagree, but based on this

Mephistis is actually looking into Japanese guidebooks albeit slowly. Can't verify how well it's going, but translating a lot of in game Japanese statements actually results in consistency with the English localizations, including the fact that the worlds have been called dimensions by Bestovius, as well as Merloo having the power to "Control Dimensions".

Then this can maybe bring evidence to make things more solid and render arguments invalid, so we can reasonably wait for that and do nothing before it. As a reminder, our rules now state that any translation needs a transcription of the og language, and as a standard I would like to see myself anything found regardless of the relevance they may deem it has.

 

[Antvasima]

@Mephistus

We would appreciate if you keep us updated regarding your translation progress. Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[Mephistus]

There's nothing to add currently for the information/arguments concerning the super paper mario japanese guidebooks since you'd need to have someone purchase them online to actually look through them; for all we know there could be something explicit like any dimensions, any universes, etc; the only (5) legible scans that talk about the lore out of a couple ones that I could actually find online through websites with people selling the guides just have stuff with what is explored throughout the game and what is threatened by Count Bleck as "世界", which is said by Bleck himself in-game for what he wants to destroy and already I have provided that translated scan so-

Here's the links if people want to look through them/upload them on imgur for later:

https://jp.mercari.com/item/m49003950165

https://jp.mercari.com/item/m34481011496

https://www.ebay.com/itm/37306015929

Nintendo Official Guide Book for Super Paper Mario - Japan Version | eBay

Super Paper Mario Nintendo Official Guide Book. This is an official product, not bootleg. If you are big fan, DON'T MISS THIS BIG CHANCE ! This is an official product, not bootleg. Printed in Japan.

www.ebay.com

I don't know DDM is getting where Bestovius calls the worlds as dimensions in guides or in-game, but there was already 2 arguements posted in that Imgur link already above by myself on that note.

I have screenshots of Merloo's tattle in the Japanese version, but I don't believe it talks of the worlds in respect to his dimensional magic he was working on, which seems to be in reference to the Flip move.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

@DarkDragonMedeus @GyroNutz

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't know DDM is getting where Bestovius calls the worlds as dimensions in guides or in-game, but there was already 2 arguements posted in that Imgur link already above by myself on that note.

I might have misunderstood. I was looking over posts made on Discord, but I think it was more so Dimentio calling Sammer Kingdom a Dimension in the Japanese text was the text I was thinking of when I double checked.

 

[Eficiente]

There's nothing to add currently for the information/arguments concerning the super paper mario japanese guidebooks since you'd need to have someone purchase them online

Ok then, back to this

As everything needed to said was said we should patiently wait for @AKM sama and @Matthew_Schroeder to read the "new" stuff and evaluate.

 

[Mephistus]

I might have misunderstood. I was looking over posts made on Discord, but I think it was more so Dimentio calling Sammer Kingdom a Dimension in the Japanese text was the text I was thinking of when I double checked.

Ohh, I think I know which one you mean. That's from Mr. L talking about there after they go back to it when it was erased and using the term "kukan". There's the other one that has Dimentio talk about his mini-dimension and uses "kukan" as well, which can reference to a dimension as a whole. Those scans aren't in any of the Imgur galleries currently.

It seems evident enough to me that these parallel worlds are each individual dimensions since the 7 doorways shown in Flipside clearly don't lead to the same universe since its directly stated in the Japanese by Tippi and Merlon only 1, single, uno pure heart is beyond each individual door, as I have already explained within my Imgur links, they logically don't transport you to the same universe; Mario could just have used the first dimensional door otherwise to reach and collect all 7 pure hearts if that was the case.

Here's the scenes:
&

Here's the two translated scans/dialogue:

 

[Antvasima]

Mephistus:

Thank you for helping out. So can the 2-B statistics stay then, and if so, do their current justifications/explanations need to be improved on?

Medeus:

Can you write an explanation for what Eficiente says that AKM and Matthew need to evaluate here please?

 

[Mephistus]

Also idk if people forgot but the Dream Stone is also part of this CRT and I'm pretty sure most people found the counters lacking and seem to be more in support of downgrading it, so if nothing at least let's get something out of this thread and downgrade the Dream Stone and people who scale to it accordingly.

Mkay. Given there is an overwhelming moderator agreement on that topic thus far and no outright disagreement. I'll be listing off the profiles with the exact names affected that would need to be downgraded to vaguely stronger than base Mario's AP/Dura stats for their 2-B keys. If someone wants to unlock them:

Bowser
Zeekeeper
Antasma

 

[Antvasima]

Mkay. Given there is an overwhelming moderator agreement on that topic thus far and no outright disagreement. I'll be listing off the profiles with the exact names affected that would need to be downgraded to vaguely stronger than base Mario's AP/Dura stats for their 2-B keys. If someone wants to unlock them:

Bowser
Zeekeeper
Antasma

Is this fine with you, @GyroNutz and @DarkDragonMedeus ?