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So Long 2-B Mario... (Potentially BIG downgrade for SPM feats)

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Mephistus said:
Unless you have a good reason to provide that the Chaos Heart was gaining power throughout the game, that is exactly what the mechanics will be assumed to work by. Even then there's more than one way to scale there, intuitively.
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Don't be vague, and pay attention. I already said how I find it more reasonable for the Chaos Heart to work in a way that what you say doesn't make sense, but now you make me deconstruct it when it was already clear before.

The void destroying universes is Tier 2 when that happens, the Chaos Heart causes the void to grow that powerful. This is Tier 2 for the Chaos Heart for its ability to unleach that void they control eventually being that powerful, meaning the latter is Tier 2, it doesn't get shared in all stats for the Chaos Heart. The Chaos Heart is still powerful in an immediate use, being able to power up others and grant them abilities, that has the tier proven to have by scaling.

Your prove that the Chaos Heart was giving Tier 2 power to characters in combat is again to assume that it is already at that level to give Tier 2 power to other character, but that has no reason to be as the only Tier 2 thing it has is the void once it reaches universes, not what it can do on a lesser scale and time, which are both, on their own, intuitively less powerful. The Chaos Heart wasn't gaining power throughout the game, it's nonsense that I would need to prove something that's not the case, that's a made up objective. The void, however, grows in size and destructiveness over time, intuitively making it more powerful over time. If it reaches a universe, that's Low 2-C, if it reaches universes, it's 2-C, if it reaches 1 universe, it's not 2-C, if it's a mini-void, it's not 2-C. Its feats are their proven tiers, because that's how feats work in fiction, it again isn't some kind of DBZ ki attack in which everything it is has the same tier.

You need to prove that everything the Chaos Heart powers is a literal fraction of the peak of its best feat, which you can't, hence you're wrong. If you want to insist with it because dogmatism/for no reason, you would fail to word reasons for it that wouldn't be easily disprovable, hence you don't clearly state your position on the matter.
 
Apologies for bumping this, but this seems to being confusing me.

I have yet to see ppl compare the translations from the official ones to Japanese translations ngl.
 
Isn't it better if we focus on our other big Mario revision thread right now?
 
Okay. Thank you for the information.
 
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Antvasima said:
Okay. Thank you for hte information.
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You are welcome.

However, I will admit favoring English localization translation over Fan Translation seems off putting tbh.

I honestly can not tell you it will been the first time if we intended to do a double standard apparently.

The arguments seems to hinge on translations of specific context themselves which admittedly I can not tell exactly if the translations is being valid and confirmed as using a Google doc for this seems off putting to say the least as I rather been provided the full context to ensure this is indeed the case.
 
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GyroNutz said:
I get the dream spots thing, that doesn't seem like merging universes together though. If it's based off of dream orbs being universal in energy, then wouldn't Bowser's dream kinda contradict that? Antasma takes a notable amount of dream energy from that yet the dream continues existing.

There is a statement about Antasma consuming entire nightmares in the past, can't remember if it was stated that he had the dark stone at this point though.
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Found the two scenes in the localizations. Here is the translated JP scans with the original text before translation AND English versions. Yeah, this would make him low 2-C in base since we consider whole dreams as whole universes/dimensions and all if that is what made him mega powerful starting from just a normie.
Bowser's dream not disappearing instantly could be a deal where it takes him an unspecified over time amount to fully absorb the power of a "whole" individual dream, as that would make more sense.
 
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Mephistus said:
Found the two scenes in the localizations. Here is the translated JP scans with the original text before translation AND English versions. Yeah, this would make him low 2-C in base since we consider whole dreams as whole universes/dimensions and all if that is what made him mega powerful starting from just a normie.
Bowser's dream not disappearing instantly could be a deal where it takes him an unspecified over time amount to fully absorb the power of a "whole" individual dream, as that would make more sense.
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@GyroNutz @DarkDragonMedeus

How does this revision fit in with the plans to split Mario into several pages for different series of games that he took part in?
 
Okay. That is probably fine to apply then, but it seems best to wait for input from GyroNutz as well.
 
Also, with the other revisions planned, what would we label Mario and co. in SPM without the pure hearts? Would we just scale then to Sammer's Kingdom? Cause otherwise there's not really anything solid to scale them up from. I guess Bleck destroying a country casually could be a notable one and potentially a feat for people to scale from. But now that we can't just say they're Tier 3 anymore we'd have to make big changes to the SPM stats anyways
 
Nice.

I'm actually pretty curious what these changes will do for Mario profiles, as some feats may just be outright accepted that were considered outliers before due to the new system we're judging the series by.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
I'm actually pretty curious what these changes will do for Mario profiles, as some feats may just be outright accepted that were considered outliers before due to the new system we're judging the series by.
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That is a good point. At least some of them likely will be accepted, yes.
 
Antvasima said:
How does this revision fit in with the plans to split Mario into several pages for different series of games that he took part in?
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I'm too busy to take part in any wide-scale revisions at the moment, but I will say that a Low 2-C feat taking a notable period of time is still Low 2-C. We don't know if the Joules/Watts relationships holds past uncountable infinity, and you can't downscale from Low 2-C through dividing by finite numbers anyway. Though iirc the next highest feat in the Mario & Luigi series without Dream Stone scaling is probably the black hole stuff/Bowser punching Peach's Castle around the Earth.
 
Okay. Thank you for helping out.

So what should we do here then?
 
Somebody needs to remind us about this thread after the other Mario revision has been finished though.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I think Antasma being Low 2-C in base is solid. It would scale to the Mario & Luigi series with the Dream Team and beyond keys. And Paper Jam cast would also be Low 2-C as a result.
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I thought Antasma is only ever fought by an amped Mario using the power of Dreamy Luigi, is that even properly scalable to the cast normally? Everytime Antasma is encountered outside the Dream World without Dreamy Luigi he rolls damn near everyone.
 
Doesn't Antasma has a move where he removes Dreamy Luigi from Mario and he's forced to fight him on his own?
 
Yeah, and you can damage Antasma in that state as well.

Plus, I feel like scaling to Dreamy Bowser would allow scaling to Antasma by default.
 
So how would that thread affect this one, if it were to?

I imagine a Paper Mario & Mainline Mario split would cause the Void to no longer even have the capacity to be 2B (especially since there's no evidence that the Void's destruction would reach outside of the PM universe within the book), since it wouldn't be able to be argued to affect the Dream Depot or anything like that? It'd have to be downgraded to 2C I think?
 
I guess it would be 2-C unless some thread for many worlds theory started up for Mario, or maybe if people argued Culex was 2-B due to being the master of space and time.
 
Actually, it was still agreed Paper Mario takes place in the same multiverse as regular Mario even if they're different universes. I disagree with those 2 being separate characters for other reasons but even so. It was still agreed to all be the same canon and thus same cosmology. ArmorChompy agrees with that sentiment and last I checked, he does still think Paper Mario is a different character from a different universe, but still agrees with it being the same multiverse.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Actually, it was still agreed Paper Mario takes place in the same multiverse as regular Mario even if they're different universes. I disagree with those 2 being separate characters for other reasons but even so. It was still agreed to all be the same canon and thus same cosmology. ArmorChompy agrees with that sentiment and last I checked, he does still think Paper Mario is a different character from a different universe, but still agrees with it being the same multiverse.
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I have issues with this but I guess these are matters we’ll have to wait on debating until Mario gets more sorted out really.
 
GyroNutz said:
Though iirc the next highest feat in the Mario & Luigi series without Dream Stone scaling is probably the black hole stuff/Bowser punching Peach's Castle around the Earth.
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The "black holes" there probably wouldn't fit the site standard anyway, with them said as operating as portals in the official prima guide and pulling an unexplained disappearance acts and dissipate for no reason rather than realistic qualities.

Recalling an older calc on the castle punch it got 6-C tier via kinetic energy for it circling back to Earth.
 
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Can somebody remind me regarding what we currently need to do here please?
 
Antvasima said:
Can somebody remind me regarding what we currently need to do here please?
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Pretty sure this thread is in ice right now while the major Mario continuity split thread is underway, since what happens in that thread would ultimately affect what happens here iirc.

But last I checked with this thread the Dream Stone, Dark Stone, Dreamy Bowser and Zeekeeper were being downgraded to 2C

There’s much debate over if 2B for Pure Hearts, Chaos Hearts, Super Dimentio & The Void will stay tho, not sure if a consensus was reached
 
More like a "Universe split" and specific "Character split" not a Multiverse/continuity/canon split. I still disagree with that proposal too, but it is still up to a general consensus but at minimum, it is still going to be the same multiverse. But I think the discussion for this thread specifically is concluded while the topic may be continued on the other thread(s) in question.
 
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
I’m pretty sure they were planning to split Mario & Paper Mario, but leave everything else?
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I've been meaning to have that split for quite a while, but I hadn't bothered because I was certain nobody would disagree with me, even if Mario and Luigi Paper Jam both showed and DOUBLED DOWN on how Mario and Paper Mario are separate entities from one another.
 
The only reason they could even be considered the same is because the mainline games are referenced in the Paper Mario games. But it does get contradicted by Paper Jam so idk. But that discussion isn’t for this thread.
 
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