So Long 2-B Mario... (Potentially BIG downgrade for SPM feats)

[Eficiente]

This is a staff thread.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Mephistus is still waiting for some more scans to get translations iirc and I'm still crafting my thoughts.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Smashtwig]

I'll disagree mostly FRA but

If the English version is an actual version that the original creators approve of as an acceptable translation, why should we not be using it? Unless the translation is so bad or if it's just that off to what they are trying to say, which is isn't, the English shouldn't be deemed "unreliable"- otherwise they wouldn't have published that English translation due to the bad quality.

Also, each world is very different from each other, it's hard to believe that World 3 is in the same world as say, World 7. We kinda see the world get made right in front of us when you enter a door, and the Void destroyed one of worlds, that's clearly not connected to any other world

 

[PROPLAYEN]

I'll disagree mostly FRA but

If the English version is an actual version that the original creators approve of as an acceptable translation, should we not be using it? Unless the translation is so bad or if it's just that off to what they are trying to say, which is isn't, the English shouldn't be deemed "unreliable"- otherwise they wouldn't have published that English translation due to the bad quality.

Also, each world is very different from each other, it's hard to believe that World 3 is in the same world as say, World 7. We kinda see the world get made right in front of us when you enter a door, and the Void destroyed one of worlds, that's clearly not connected to any other world

I highly doubt they where thinking about power levels when releasing the translation but instead how good of a story it made.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I'll disagree mostly FRA but

If the English version is an actual version that the original creators approve of as an acceptable translation, should we not be using it? Unless the translation is so bad or if it's just that off to what they are trying to say, which is isn't, the English shouldn't be deemed "unreliable"- otherwise they wouldn't have published that English translation due to the bad quality.

Litterary translation aren't about being litteral, just the most enjoyable. I wouldn't recommend even a good translation for exact word stuff.

I would find it weird that the english version made such a huge mistake tho.

 

[Mephistus]

Mephistus is still waiting for some more scans to get translations iirc and I'm still crafting my thoughts.

I asked a friend who is reliable with translating Japanese to English on Discord and they have helped translate them all and corrected translations written underneath them that would be off.





With these in mind I'll go over my leading thoughts on what these scans support as evidence:

1. World and dimension are treated as synonyms with Mario's dimension as the example used in reference to Flipside with a catch card that is sold in the card shop (Again actually, Merlon also states and is aware of this and there is another scan posted with this line translated).
2. Tippi couldn't have just evacuated everyone in Flipside/Flopside to Mario's home dimension if it was a safe place since Bleck not targeting there too would be odd for Merlon to not just run to and others, and its entirely in Tippi's power to teleport people and herself to and from Mario's dimension from Flipside.
3. Nastasia thinks nowhere is safe from the destruction knowing about Bleck's plan when Peach escapes with a dimensional flip. She is fully aware with Bleck's plan grabbing Peach from her home dimension with being his groupie and setting up the wedding and knows about the dimensional doors operating in Flipside/Flopside. This is also folly that Bleck is somehow sparing a place he's already visited and aware of, when he says, "everything".
4. Dimentio says he can return them to their original world and Peach retorts with she wants to save "this world" that they are in, seemingly comparing those worlds they visit through the doors with their own world (plurals being a vague thing with how the language works it seems to imply an individual world there)
5. The last scan says Tippi wants to go to the "next world" through one of the doors, as a preluding example of the multiple worlds seen in the game, with the world visited in outer space being a place visiting the edge of outer space.
   

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Mephistus. So given what the translations and QuasiYuri said, should the Mario statistics stay at 2-B, but get further clarifications/justifications for them that are listed in a blog post that can then be linked to?

 

[Smashtwig]

More clarifications are never bad. From what I learned from taking care of my own verse, overexplaination is never bad.

 

[Eficiente]

What about it would make you believe 2-B should stay, Ant?

 

[Antvasima]

What about it would make you believe 2-B should stay, Ant?

I do not know. I was asking a question to more knowledgeable members, as I have not managed to keep track here very well.

 

[Mephistus]

All mentions of "all worlds" or "every world" has also been wiped in place of "the world".

Bump? I think this objection as well is something that should be covered too with this scan, since I have given my response on the context on the word "world" being interchanged with "Mario's dimension" with two prior translated scans.


Source.

"「次元のハザマ空間」はあらゆる世界へ『道』をひらくことができる。たいへんベンリな場所らしいですよ。
The 「Dimensional Doors area/hallway of Dimensional Doors」 (not 100% sure on this) can open a path to any world. It seems like a really useful place!"

The Ancients and their descendants like Merlon couldn't just simply travel to any world to escape the prophecy for the destruction if it was that simple and limited if all the Pure Hearts were on hand. Along with Nastasia's awareness of someone already using one of those dimensional doors.

 

[Eficiente]

I'm not against the idea of this technically ending up consuming 2 universes.

 

[Smashtwig]

Okay but why specifically two? Does Count Bleck have a grudge against those two? Not really, destroying his home world was enough, it’s clear that he’s trying to destroy everything, reality in of itself because of his loss, why would he target just two universes out of all of them? Narratively he would try revenge against everything comprehendable to him, that’s why the void is looming everywhere in the game, not just that one world.

 

[Eficiente]

I can see a number of users agreeing on "2-B ([Dogmatism here]/[Incomplete information to avoid coming off as dogmatism here])", that doesn't mean it's correct. I don't need to prove that more than 2 universes are being destroyed, you need to prove that all are, which you can't. We don't know if he knows about more than those 2 universes, we can't assume that he both knows and targets them with this not being in the game. "Narratively" 2 universes being destroyed is even a technicality, a conclusion after adding up info here and there, to take the narrative as aiming to have something that wider is too distracted from it. It's all just the bias of wanting this to destroy all universes being applied to what it is being presented.

 

[QuasiYuri]

"Narratively" the hole is threatening all of existence. I don't know where you got that Bleck's plan is to target two specifics universes.

Also taking it as a threat to all existence and universes is also the english's version choice, which isn't an incoherence with what happens.
I mean, I don't mind having to bring the japanese when the english vers. is clearly making chances to what happen. But half of the arguments against 2-B is "because it's written in japanese we don't know if it's plural".

 

[Arceus0x]

Is being a threat really enough to justify 2-B? It could just be 2-B overtime? I am not knowledgeable here but i just wanna help figure stuff out

 

[Nierre]

Also just a general question (based on Arceus' question):

Why is it assumed that if you're a threat (granting 2-B) that it's overtime?

Like unless there's context behind it why should that be something taken into account ever

 

[Arceus0x]

Why is it assumed that if you're a threat (granting 2-B) that it's overtime?

it can be assumed out of context. Imagine this. We've nukes irl right? If you nuke the mariana trench we're screwed. This means that nukes are a threat to all of humanity, doesn't mean that it can one-shot the entire surface. You can also nuke the entire surface bit by bit and that would also mean that it is a threat to the surface, and yet that doesn't make it High 6-A

 

[QuasiYuri]

it can be assumed out of context. Imagine this. We've nukes irl right? If you nuke the mariana trench we're screwed. This means that nukes are a threat to all of humanity, doesn't mean that it can one-shot the entire surface. You can also nuke the entire surface bit by bit and that would also mean that it is a threat to the surface, and yet that doesn't make it High 6-A

Here it's a magical Void that was to the point of erasing everything in existence when our heroes arrived for the final battle though.

However it is kinda overtime in that the Void takes the entire game to become as big as it needs to be.

 

[Eficiente]

"Narratively" the hole is threatening all of existence. I don't know where you got that Bleck's plan is to target two specifics universes.

It's destroying the universe, with some extra info that adds in that Mario's universe would be destroyed too. "All of existence" comes out of you, what's said is something else. It's not that "two specifics universes are the target" as much as it is "the universe is the target, and this other universe will technically be destroyed too", as the plot throws over and over how the universe will be destroyed but then also other info brings the idea that Mario's universe will be destroyed too, "two specifics universes are the target" comes off as an issue simply due to feeling weird, and that's just grabbing into an excuse. It's clear as water that Bleck didn't "aim to destroy 2 universes" as a redacted part of his plan, but that's how it is based on evidence.

But half of the arguments against 2-B is "because it's written in japanese we don't know if it's plural".

They refer to the universe being destroyed even as "this world/universe", making it odd for it to be plural, they also refer to the levels gone through the game as what was going to be destroyed by the prophecy. Not much more is needed as the reasons for 2-B aren't legit. "We don't know if it's plural" is also incredible incredulity that I'm sure many users here share, that's not how it works, we do know what the meaning in words are, higher takes like that are to be proven if used and not inherent.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

2 Universes is literally the textbook definition of Golden Mean Fallacy. Also, Mephistus brought up that the other 7 worlds/dimensions are other universes too; so it would be at least 9 universes (Flipside + 7 worlds + Mario's Dimension = 9) But there's also Flopside being a in a parallel dimension to Flipside and some Nolrem statements saying all dimensions have a parallel dimension. I still have a lot more details to go over yes and I keep saying that. But I am still going to have to side with Mephistus here.

 

[Eficiente]

2 Universes is literally the textbook definition of Golden Mean Fallacy.

That's pretty random to say.

Also, Mephistus brought up that the other 7 worlds/dimensions are other universes too

I don't see how so.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's pretty random to say.

It's a simple fact; "All existence" would never just mean 2 random universes out of a countless collection. It either means the Space-Time Continuum or the rest of the multiverse; and the former only applies if the character speaking it is oblivious the the existence of alternate universes in which case Merlon is not. Merlon's entire job is that he's an Overseer of many different worlds/dimensions and travels to all those different worlds/dimensions in a regular basis as is Nolrem; including the fact that Merlon has been to Mario's dimension multiple times. So here's a fact check using process of elimination.

• Merlon says the Void threatens to destroy all existence, all worlds, all dimensions.
  • All existence means either Low 2-C or the entire cosmology
  • All worlds implies more than one world
  • All Dimensions implies more than one body of space
• On the contrary, it cannot be just one Universe because
  • Mario's Dimension which is a different universe is clearly being effected
  • The Void is described as being located between dimensions; and emphasis that it's plural
  • Flipside is also a town intended to connect to many different worlds/dimension that's also being effected
  • Flopside is also being effected despite like the opposite end of Flipside

Process of elimination makes this multiversal.

I don't see how so.

Mephistus literally explained in great detail from the gathered scan translations that also double as a support for the English localization as actually being reliable.

Also, I think it goes without saying that if 2 or more translations are equally accurate, and it's impossible to visually deny one or the other, then English localization should probably take priority as the last resort for situations like that for any given controversial kanji text.

Anyway, I have to go to work again soon so cannot stay too long.

 

[Smashtwig]

"Narratively" 2 universes being destroyed is even a technicality, a conclusion after adding up info here and there, to take the narrative as aiming to have something that wider is too distracted from it. It's all just the bias of wanting this to destroy all universes being applied to what it is being presented.

so in other words, you’re saying the classic VSB Assumption stuff

Since you only know that I can type, I’m only 10-C, because you haven’t seen me do anything else other than type. Since you‘ve only seen my type, I can’t lift a bag, it’s too heavy for me based on my shown feats. I also am incapable of punching something to damage it that is of tougher constitution than a keyboard, because I haven’t shown to punch anything like that. In fact, I’m incapable of punching in general, because you’ve never seen me punch. Feats aren’t limitations, they give you an idea of what the character should be capable of.

 

[Antvasima]

Medeus and QuasiYuri seem to make sense above.

So what should we use as a tier here then, 2-C or 2-B?

 

[Eficiente]

It's a simple fact; "All existence" would never just mean 2 random universes out of a countless collection.

Show me when was it stated that the target was all existence first of all. And again, that excuse of 2 universes being the target is being used again; The target, as the game & guide say many times, is the universe, "all existence" as such can very easily refer to it, but since you want to tackle the "2 universes being the target", then that's redirected as the target of "all existence" being those 2 universes while disregarding the many times 1 universe was stated to be the target.

It either means the Space-Time Continuum or the rest of the multiverse; and the former only applies if the character speaking it is oblivious the the existence of alternate universes in which case Merlon is not. Merlon's entire job is that he's an Overseer of many different worlds/dimensions and travels to all those different worlds/dimensions in a regular basis as is Nolrem; including the fact that Merlon has been to Mario's dimension multiple times.

• • All existence means either Low 2-C or the entire cosmology

I'm yet to see the statement, again. And even then with other characters and statements having used 1 universe as the target so could this one other character, it's also not shown how many universes he's aware of. Why would he know better than the guide narrating, for example.

• Merlon says the Void threatens to destroy all existence, all worlds, all dimensions.

You can show me an album with all this, I predict a "/" better replacing that ", ".

• • All worlds implies more than one world

We have gone over this, you can't just forget how "worlds" are what make up the universe gone over in the game and how all of those worlds/dimensions are said to be the target of the prophecy.

• • All Dimensions implies more than one body of space

As before, since it's the same. Seriously if "worlds" doesn't mean the same as "dimensions" then what the heck are you even referring to when you say "worlds"? It can't be planets, do you have a made up meaning to it? As I see it, it can be a case of "more words, so it sounds better".

• On the contrary, it cannot be just one Universe because
  • Mario's Dimension which is a different universe is clearly being effected

Yes.

• • The Void is described as being located between dimensions; and emphasis that it's plural

Yes, worlds/dimensions make up a "universe" in the game, with one even being in between them, this point is redundant.

• • Flipside is also a town intended to connect to many different worlds/dimension that's also being effected

If you can prove this is more than the "worlds" in the game and Mario's universe then that's something, otherwise it refers to the "worlds" in the game and Mario's universe.

• • Flopside is also being effected despite like the opposite end of Flipside

Flipside is being affected, yes.

Mephistus literally explained in great detail from the gathered scan translations that also double as a support for the English localization as actually being reliable.

I'm sure there was great detail, but my conclusions aren't the same.

Also, I think it goes without saying that if 2 or more translations are equally accurate, and it's impossible to visually deny one or the other, then English localization should probably take priority as the last resort for situations like that for any given controversial kanji text.

Both translations being equally accurate is a false premise, 1 is the og text and both don't say the same. If I could replace any evidence of any verse for a better translated version of its og language, it took me no effort to do so, and it & its localization didn't say quite the same by tiny nitpicks, I would easily go with the better translated version to better represent the verse. Here things are put into question, which changes things up.

 

[y3p_owo]

Medeus and QuasiYuri seem to make sense above.

So what should we use as a tier here then, 2-C or 2-B?

I personally see no reason to change it to 2-C since narratively it's affecting everything.

 

[Smashtwig]

Show me when was it stated that the target was all existence first of all. And again, that excuse of 2 universes being the target is being used again; The target, as the game & guide say many times, is the universe, "all existence" as such can very easily refer to it, but since you want to tackle the "2 universes being the target", then that's redirected as the target of "all existence" being those 2 universes while disregarding the many times 1 universe was stated to be the target.

First off, if he was intending to destroy all the universes he knows of, and it’s two, then why doesn’t he say “both” instead of “all”. Imagine being so dramatic about destroying 2 universes that you have to say “EVERY WORLD WILL BE RETURNED TO THE VOID FOR THEIR SINS AAAAAAAAAA”. Only a idiot would say something like that doesn’t correspond to what the actual result is, Count Bleck isn’t exactly an idiot.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Both translations being equally accurate is a false premise, 1 is the og text and both don't say the same. If I could replace any evidence of any verse for a better translated version of its og language, it took me no effort to do so, and it & its localization didn't say quite the same by tiny nitpicks, I would easily go with the better translated version to better represent the verse. Here things are put into question, which changes things up.

The official translation accounts for context, while the fan one just put everything in singular because "japanese plural not easy to recognize". That's pretty much it tbh.

 

[Antvasima]

So do you also support 2-B then, QuasiYuri?

Also, can somebody write a tally of which staff members here that support what, please?

 

[Eficiente]

First off, if he was intending to destroy all the universes he knows of, and it’s two, then why doesn’t he say “both” instead of “all”. Imagine being so dramatic about destroying 2 universes that you have to say “EVERY WORLD WILL BE RETURNED TO THE VOID FOR THEIR SINS AAAAAAAAAA”. Only a idiot would say something like that doesn’t correspond to what the actual result is, Count Bleck isn’t exactly an idiot.

Third time I need to go over the same thing, be it due to lack of attention or something else, it comes out of you to say "he was intending to destroy all the universes he knows of", that is not how the game and guide primarily present his goal, that is done by pointing out how the universe will be destroyed, Bleck is doing the same. Otherwise he would be saying 1 thing but the rest of the game and guide would be saying something else entirely, it would be inconsistent, it doesn't come as a logical conclusion that he would refer to what he does as destroying 2 universes, it's just a straw man because "it look would look bad" while disregarding what the character is doing. "Every world", if that's a correct translation, form the universe, it's perfectly reasonable that he would say that, you should have no issue with it and let alone say that only an idiot would say it while having not issues with things like this, that's clearly cherry picking information.

The official translation accounts for context, while the fan one just put everything in singular because "japanese plural not easy to recognize". That's pretty much it tbh.

That is close minded and even then the guide accounts for context you don't care about while the English version of the game doesn't objectively state that all universes in the multiverse will be destroyed unless looked in a vacuum, w/o the weird gimmick of the universe being made of many dimensions/worlds which "all" will be destroyed, a translation to the og texts, and the guide.

Can somebody post the full Super Paper Mario Prima Strategy Guide btw? I can only find online some other guide that vaguely says that the universe will be destroyed.

 

[Smashtwig]

Okay but why are we using the Guide over the video game? Isn’t Super Paper Mario the main source? I understand that guides are valid, but when they clash on the facts doesn’t the game take precedence over the guide? Plus, I’m more of willing to trust the official translation team over some rando’s translation unless the you’re saying that the official translators were so bad and incompetent that they aren’t saying what they’re actually saying.

This is a Mario game. They not only have the money to get competent people but, it’s Mario, they freaking better get it right

 

[Arceus0x]

Okay but why are we using the Guide over the video game? Isn’t Super Paper Mario the main source? I understand that guides are valid, but when they clash on the facts doesn’t the game take precedence over the guide? Plus, I’m more of willing to trust the official translation team over some rando’s translation unless the you’re saying that the official translators were so bad and incompetent that they aren’t saying what they’re actually saying.

This is a Mario game. They not only have the money to get competent people but, it’s Mario, they freaking better get it right

Japanese to English translators are a bit artistic and not always right. An example would be that one time we had a blatant 2-A statement for Pokemon in the games but then it didn't exist in the japanese version

 

[Eficiente]

Okay but why are we using the Guide over the video game? Isn’t Super Paper Mario the main source? I understand that guides are valid, but when they clash on the facts doesn’t the game take precedence over the guide? Plus, I’m more of willing to trust the official translation team over some rando’s translation unless the you’re saying that the official translators were so bad and incompetent that they aren’t saying what they’re actually saying.

This is a Mario game. They not only have the money to get competent people but, it’s Mario, they freaking better get it right

Just like in the other comment where you pointed how something was something an idiot would say and that Bleck isn't an idiot, here again the way you approach this doesn't give me a professional vibe, but that you might be over reacting and taking in things with more meaning than what they really have in an improvable way. There is a clear jump in logic there, does the guide matter more than the game? Sure, one can say that. Does the guide clash with facts of the game? No. Only if you want that to be the case. Official translation teams make mistakes, this isn't a translation for a history book, but a game. That much is very simple, no need to over exaggerate their lack of word-to-work precision as "were so bad and incompetent that they aren’t saying what they’re actually saying", it is not being presented that that this "official translation team" "were so bad and incompetent that they aren’t saying what they’re actually saying", but something far more basic and commonplace that means much the same. The alternative being made by some random person/someone without a position of relevance in Nintendo, does not matter, it is pointless to point out how you don't like it like that.

 

[Smashtwig]

I mean I'm not a professional I'm just a normal kid did you expect me to wear a suit and tie before entering this convo

Anywho, I'm still standing by the fact that the people who made the translations for Nintendo's Number 1 IP would know what they're doing. I don't remember the script like the back of my hand, but I assume that the word "universes" or "dimensions" or whatever that describes the scale of the threat has been thrown around more than enough times for someone to catch a mistake and be like "bro this ain't right", and change it. If you say that they mistakes, sure, they could have, but for something as significant a detail like this, they really can't mess it up- especially if they're working for an IP that could get them fired if they mess it up bad.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I mean I'm not a professional I'm just a normal kid did you expect me to wear a suit and tie before entering this convo

Anywho, I'm still standing by the fact that the people who made the translations for Nintendo's Number 1 IP would know what they're doing. I don't remember the script like the back of my hand, but I assume that the word "universes" or "dimensions" or whatever that describes the scale of the threat has been thrown around more than enough times for someone to catch a mistake and be like "bro this ain't right", and change it. If you say that they mistakes, sure, they could have, but for something as significant a detail like this, they really can't mess it up- especially if they're working for an IP that could get them fired if they mess it up bad.

A minor phrase or word such as "universe" or "dimension" being flubbed in a translation wouldn't even get one fired. Other franchises like Kirby have similar translation issues in the English text with removing, changing, or adding context to the original Japanese text (Star Allies is particularly infamous within the community for this) and to my knowledge, none of those translators lost the job at any point. There's also Metroid Other M, which is notorious for a marred localization as well, so it's not like recent Nintendo games are immune from localization/translation issues.

Considering this also isn't the first time that an English translation added context to a Mario game that affected cosmology/feats, and we prioritized the Japanese version then, I think this is reasonable. Also keep in mind and consider that there have been worse, intentional, revisionist changes in localizations before (IE the removal of Vivian being trans in the English versions of TTYD).

I'd honestly advocate for the usage of the original Japanese text over the translation in this, and in most instances with Mario, especially if there are contradictions. More consistency and accuracy in unchanged text. As stated before the translators were focused on keeping the translation as fun and soulful as the original Japanese text, so that way the game's tone would be properly preserved in English audiences, not that they were laser focused on ensuring that things such as the cosmology were pinpoint accurate or that Bleck is always 100% correct in how many universes he's going to destroy.

 

[Swerzye29038]

Medeus and QuasiYuri seem to make sense above.

So what should we use as a tier here then, 2-C or 2-B?

I'm obviously probably not going to be considered, but 2-C makes the most sense here. There still isn't any evidence that the threat of Bleck was 2-B. All contextual evidence points towards the opposite.

 

[PROPLAYEN]

I agree with 2C

 

[Smashtwig]

A minor phrase or word such as "universe" or "dimension" being flubbed in a translation wouldn't even get one fired. Other franchises like Kirby have similar translation issues in the English text with removing, changing, or adding context to the original Japanese text (Star Allies is particularly infamous within the community for this) and to my knowledge, none of those translators lost the job at any point. There's also Metroid Other M, which is notorious for a marred localization as well, so it's not like recent Nintendo games are immune from localization/translation issues.

Considering this also isn't the first time that an English translation added context to a Mario game that affected cosmology/feats, and we prioritized the Japanese version then, I think this is reasonable. Also keep in mind and consider that there have been worse, intentional, revisionist changes in localizations before (IE the removal of Vivian being trans in the English versions of TTYD).

I'd honestly advocate for the usage of the original Japanese text over the translation in this, and in most instances with Mario, especially if there are contradictions. More consistency and accuracy in unchanged text. As stated before the translators were focused on keeping the translation as fun and soulful as the original Japanese text, so that way the game's tone would be properly preserved in English audiences, not that they were laser focused on ensuring that things such as the cosmology were pinpoint accurate or that Bleck is always 100% correct in how many universes he's going to destroy.

Well, you learn something every day

However, reading again from the top, I only think Bleck is affecting the worlds in the game (not 2 universes, more than that including Mario's own dimension), and apparently 2-B is 1001 or higher universes- I get Dream World exists but I'm not even sure it counts). So it'd up to you guys to decide whether Mario's own dimension counts as destroying all of the dream universes. I can't really defend any more than this.