So Long 2-B Mario... (Potentially BIG downgrade for SPM feats)

[Arceus0x]

I apologize for my demeanour though. I'll try to keep it more dignified. It's just frustrating when I've already countered certain arguments and it feels like people are ignoring what I've said so far.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

What's the counter to a consistency in that residents of each Chapter knowing of the same cartoon and enjoying it? We've had Flipside/Flopside, Francis far in The Bitlands, and the aliens on Planet Blobule which has statements of being near the edge of space. The fact it IS Howzit in the space store according to Tippi (and I'm sure her other tattles for stores would say something similar tbh), the fact there's acknowledgement of other lands and that regular joe's can hear about them or the people from them and have traveled between them? Monster and enemies from all over the world being in the Pit, Chapter 7 showing interconnectivity because we can see the same Space from Chapter 4 as well as a planet where The Overthere is on (it being called Skyland and Overthere Stair being Sky Road or something further proving it's just in the clouds and not some other dimension or universe), Merluvlee being able to still see Sammer Kingdom's destroyed state in her fortunes (if it was gone from existence entirely and time was destroyed it wouldn't be part of any foreseeable future), the fact Bleck has destroyed specifically a country before and the sky being blank isn't good proof because of Color Splash, and The Void being unable to be seen in The Whoa Zone, a place existing outside of space which would also prove The Void didn't reach everything?

Frankly, I think with all the inconsistencies and the fact the English has a mistranslation, means we cannot let that version take precedence at all. It all taking place within a single universe makes much more sense to me. How else can they all watch the same cartoon? It's more believable that a shared universe can have a broadcast that stretches throughout it than a multiverse sharing the same broadcast in many of it's universes. We also know for sure that an NPC can reach other Chapters to run his shop as informed by Tippi. Does the shopkeeper also now have Dimensional Travel? The power over dimensions/teleporting is only an ability those who are related to or have been taught under the Ancients know, so regular Joe's like Heronicus and Howzit should NOT be capable. I'm bringing fact, while the other side is relying on interpretation only instead of considering all the context I've provided. It's a shame to go through all this work and then have it be ignored when tons of my points have no been rightfully acknowledged at all and I've already countered the other arguments using logic from other games in the series as well. My argument has consistency and less assumptions made with it, and isn't that what we try to go for?

And since we've already proved "world" can literally mean anything I think we need to focus on the context within the game to see which side it supports. So please, let's not focus on that. I never wanted it to be a huge focus in the first place. I just wanted to point out the lack of calling the other places dimensions in the Japanese, and now that we know it's vague, we should look at the other context instead of relying on a fallible english localization.

 

[Eficiente]

just close this thread, make a staff discussion and then post it mate, add some more evidence while you're at it. Big nerfs need big effort not a crt open to everyone and their dead great great grandma

So, this seems in context that you're agreeing and normalizing how little focus others put into the thread, which if so is terrible but idk if you aimed at that. As a reply to quoting someone saying "I see no one is actually rebutting nor acknowledging my arguments" it comes off as a comfortable excuse. Yes this thread should have been better constructed with better clarifications in the OP, but not because any random person is required to do this extra work if they aim to do something similar in the wiki, but to account for other things that are not their fault. I don't know if you knew this already was a staff thread. No need to reply to this, just wanted to tackle the "this is how things should be" aspect of that comment.

 

[Crowman123]

Disagree.

The Dream Stone possesses the power of dreams, which are 2-B. Whether or not it is made of dreams is irrelevant if it is blatantly said to be as strong as them. It logically follows that Dimentio and Dreamy Bowser scale.

Your assumption that people are speaking in flowery language about the world being destroyed is a personal Interpretation and an unfalsifiable claim. Such subjectivity has no place here. The villain's are treated as an existential threat by the narrative. Character statements that match it should be considered accurate.

Let's talk about world. You're really hyperfixiating on whatever possible tiny difference whether or not it makes sense in context. Dimension and world are very frequently used interchangeably in real life and fiction, inferring that here is not a stretch. Statements about "All the world", "Everything in the world", etc. should be taken as multiversal as since said statements imply the entire cosmology, not a localized area.

Ffs you're misinterpretation raws.

Dreams are the same as reality warping.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Since there's a mistranslation in the english would that harm that version's credibility when it comes to interpreting the Japanese text? I'd like to think so.

Also, the Underwhere's dialogue is incredibly different and made more PG for English localizations. There's no "game overs" they legit just call it death and stuff.

 

[Mephistus]

To be fair, they say here that Bleck is from a bizarre parallel universe:

Super Paper Mario

Prepare to enter a whole new dimension with Super Paper Mario.

www.nintendo.co.uk

"The planet’s favourite moustachio'd hero returns in the third Paper Mario game, bringing a different perspective to the series as he calls on old friends – and foes – to help him tackle a mysterious enemy from a bizarre parallel universe."

The other languages (not JP here) appear to use this terming too when looking at it, adapting that term "universe" for "reality", being that the scope of the game's antagonist doesn't seem to be limited to one "universe".

Важная информация о деятельности Nintendo в России (31 мая 2023 г.)

Важная информация о деятельности Nintendo в России (31 мая 2023 г.)

www.nintendo.ru

Also, if you take into account the english localization, the Return Pipe is supposed to be able to return you from anywhere in the universe. You can use this item to return to Flipside while in the Whoa Zone and Merlon says this about the item when he gives it to you: "
“With this, you will be able to return to Flipside from anywhere in the universe! Use it whenever you feel you must return in a hurry.”
—Merlon, Super Paper Mario

So the Whoa Zone being a part of the universe regarded by Merlon's narrative, yet regarded outside of "the universe" is a thing which indicates its talking more in a multiverse sense with the "universe".

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The bizarre parallel universe IS the other dimension you go to in SPM that's not Mario's. This is not new information.

The Japanese also doesn't say anything about returning from anywhere in the universe with the Pipe.

And as I've already shown, the English cannot be counted on as reliable, as there exists a translation error.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The proof of it not mentioning "universe"

It leaves it vague as "wherever you are" and "from anywhere" but doesn't directly state those places have to be within the universe

So again, no contradictions, and Japanese takes precedence since the English adds words that don't have to be there and create a new meaning and has mistranslations and many different instances of altering information present in the Japanese like censoring death and Hell. Plus, Korean and Chinese versions are the same as the Japanese in that only "worlds" are mentioned mostly and "the universe" or "the world" is what's at stake. And again, the only actual world called a different dimension was Mario's and by extension this new dimension. There's no statement to imply Mario's world was in danger too as well as I've shown.

Anything else we need the Japanese to brutally murder?

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

The proof of it not mentioning "universe"

It leaves it vague as "wherever you are" and "from anywhere" but doesn't directly state those places have to be within the universe

So again, no contradictions, and Japanese takes precedence since the English adds words that don't have to be there and create a new meaning and has mistranslations and many different instances of altering information present in the Japanese like censoring death and Hell. Plus, Korean and Chinese versions are the same as the Japanese in that only "worlds" are mentioned mostly and "the universe" or "the world" is what's at stake. And again, the only actual world called a different dimension was Mario's and by extension this new dimension. There's no statement to imply Mario's world was in danger too as well as I've shown.

Anything else we need the Japanese to brutally murder?

"The proof of it not mentioning "universe" " How did you translate this one?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

It's rather basic kanji. The kanji used to represent universe or anything like it isn't present in it at all, and the rest are easily determinable. But I hope to get an answer in my Reddit thread so you guys will see it as more credible, even though I've been right so far.

But yeah. Anything else we need to tackle? I feel as though given the context I've provided there's sufficient evidence in support of a downgrade, especially because we can't rely on the english translation due to slipping up and using the "star" interpretation of "hoshi" for Planet Blobule.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Fox still hasn't translated some of the "all worlds" statements

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The most important one from Merlon at the start has been though. And "all worlds" otherwise isn't great support anyways as it can just be referring to the lands (worlds) of the game. The added "all of existence, all dimensions..." really helped sell the scope in English, as otherwise the feat could've been seen as less.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

The most important one from Merlon at the start has been though. And "all worlds" otherwise isn't great support anyways as it can just be referring to the lands (worlds) of the game

All worlds refer to everything that is considered a world, which includes universes

 

[Foxthefox1000]

That's your own extrapolation and prerogative talking. Nothing in the game's original text would imply this.

But I suppose that's the process we're in right now. Slowly going through the lines and picking things apart to support our arguments as we go along.

But yeah, I'll try and collect all of the statements where "all worlds" would be in Japanese and compile them and have them translated if it would please people.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

It's worth noting that "various worlds" is used in some of these, but more so when referring to traveling (which supports these places being lands that can be traveled)

When talking about The Void is where context seems to imply a singular. But we'll see I suppose. I'm hopefully gonna get an answer for that one imgur link of the world statements

 

[Omnificence]

And "all worlds" otherwise isn't great support anyways as it can just be referring to the lands (worlds) of the game.

Well, there is this page which compares and contrasts "universe" and "world". You probably already seen and read it, but just gonna put it here as a refresher.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Yes, the "world" in question is the entire parallel universe SPM takes place in. The other mentions of "world" in relation to the locations is easily explained as simply being new locations and frankly don't have proof of themselves being universes when looked at individually (except Chapter 4, obviously).The Aladdin song is a good example of how just simply traveling the world can be seen as visiting many "new worlds" because you get to see new sights within each country.

Contextually, there's a difference between how the game treats the scope of the Void's destruction and how it treats the "worlds" in the game. The fact literal cutscenes show that Chapter 7 takes place on a planet and we can see Chapter 4's exact space is already pretty damning. Coupled with, again, no Void in Whoa Zone and the evidence of it being part of the universe being easily debunked, as well as Howzit canonically being referred to as the space shop's owner, Heronicus literally just walking away from Sammer's Kingdom and ending up back in Flipside somehow, and the fact a cartoon is acknowledged and watched by people from these different places all suggest to me this is all connected and they aren't different universes. Should I literally list all of the Japanese names because they more so read to me like a list of locations rather than separate universes?

Line Line Land
Twiland
Pixeland
Space/The Universe
Stone Stone Land
Samurai's Kingdom
Under Land (and by extension, we have Sky Road and then Sky Land for the Overthere)

ALSO something interesting I found, is that 7-1's little subtitle reads as this:

またまた来たよ！地のそこへ

We're Back Once Again! To the Bottom of the Earth

Obviously not the same Earth as Mario cause it's a parallel universe's version, but yeah, this proves that these are locales on a planet and in the singular universe, which is backed up by that visual of Mario getting launched to space In Sky Road.

The more and more I find from this game further supports my arguments.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Anyways, I'll be asleep again. Hopefully people can actually see the merit in my arguments. I've backed them up with literal stuff from the games themselves and proving translation errors within the lauded English version proving it's fallible and unreliable. So far the opposing arguments to me boil down to "well the english says stuff that would indicate multiverse" but of course it does. But the Japanese takes precedence, the english does have a translation error which harms it's credibility, and the point of the thread was never about using the English version.

Hopefully, if this rating is to stay, someone can acknowledge each and every bit of the counters and evidence I've dug up, because quite frankly there's a ton of stuff here that goes against the English and supports it all being one big universe with context.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

While not exactly explicit proof given everything else I've said, it appears a few of the "world" statements do say "worlds" and implies a plural. However, there's no mention of ALL or EVERY or COUNTLESS.

But again, this doesn't really mean much. The locations are called worlds but the general scope is of the entire world, as I've already explained. And we have proof from Chapter 7 that it does take place on a planet and isn't a whole universe, both Under Land and Sky Land (where we see Mario get launched into the atmosphere giving us a view of space that's very similar to Chapter 4 and probably is the same space cause nothing implies otherwise), and knowing this, it explains how characters know of the same cartoon and how they can travel to the different places (lands, which is even in the level's names) even without a known method of dimensional travel (being warping to places).

It doesn't make a lick of sense for these to be separate universes after compiling everything together and seeing the evidence for them not being universes, where the evidence supporting them being separate universes relies on the faulty english localization and interpretation while ignoring context.

 

[JJSliderman]

So, is Dream Stone gonna be downgraded?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Both should be downgraded.

 

[Antvasima]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Eficiente @GyroNutz

Do you have any further comments here?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I'm interested to see what possible responses will be given, if any. Because I feel like I've got every base covered with all that I've supplied.

You can't really argue against the worlds not being universes when the Japanese basically confirms Under Land is below the earth (deep underground) and Sky Land is literally shown to just be the clouds on the planet. With this context the others would also have to be locations on the planet, save for Space, obviously, and that would make a lot more sense with the context I've provided, should anyone have actually read them.

People have also yet to give any more rebuttals towards downgrading the Dream Stone and Dreamy Bowser. I feel like people should just stop being neutral and make a decision so at least one part of this thread can get settled.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm going to respond later.

 

[Omnificence]

@Foxthefox1000 Well, if anything, though I'm still in disagreement with the downgrade, I do agree that the dimensions part of your first post is a bit more of a 2-C feat. And as for the Universe/Space part of your OP, I think it'd be a Low 2-C feat.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

What is there to disagree with? The assumption that these are whole universes doesn't make any sense.

The only reason we even consider them separate universes is because of the english saying these are separate dimensions, which doesn't exist in the Japanese. There's no contextual evidence saying these are separate in the Japanese and we have all the context that the worlds are connected and can be traveled between. And it's not the Dimensional Doors cause, as explained, they are one-way and only appeared for the hero within the events of the game. Heronicus is literally already in Sammer's Kingdom when you create and enter the door to it, and said door disappears just like the rest after exiting into the level.

Why is this so controversial and worth several walls of text when the context doesn't exist in Japanese, the English has a translation error anyways hurting it's credibility, and there's a direct showing that these other "worlds" are just places on a planet, unless we're assuming the planet has an endless spatial expanse beneath it's crust and endless layers of clouds for no reason. There's also the Whoa Zone not being within space and not having a Void present at all, and the Return Pipe saying nothing that would indicate it's part of the universe in the japanese.

You literally cannot argue against the literal text and cutscenes of the game. Your interpretation means nothing without sufficient context, so if you do argue for it, try and find specific context that explicitly confirms that these could be separate universes and pray the japanese version doesn't change.

Whatever response that's given will probably just repeat the same arguments said at the beginning of the thread I've already countered, still trying to argue these worlds being separate universes and STILL trying to claim that it's 2-B when nothing indicating such a scope exists within the Japanese which would still be a downgrade.

 

[Omnificence]

@Foxthefox1000 Okay, I feel like you're acting a little hostile. No offense.

 

[StrawHatArslan]

disagree fra

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I don't feel he's acting hostile at this point, his points seem to generally be getting completely ignored and I still haven't seen any points that genuinely refute the Japanese text just, not having any of the evidence for 2B.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody explain what the relevant Mario character statistics should be changed to instead, and why this is the case, please?

If our current tiers are based on inaccurate English translations, that is obviously a major problem.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Agreed with the downgrade.

 

[Omnificence]

I don't feel he's acting hostile at this point, his points seem to generally be getting completely ignored and I still haven't seen any points that genuinely refute the Japanese text just, not having any of the evidence for 2B.

@Kirbonic_Pikmin I said that I agree that the dimensions part of his OP is a bit more of a 2-C feat, and the Universe/Space part would be a Low 2-C feat.

What is there to disagree with? The assumption that these are whole universes doesn't make any sense.

You literally cannot argue against the literal text and cutscenes of the game. Your interpretation means nothing without sufficient context, so if you do argue for it, try and find specific context that explicitly confirms that these could be separate universes and pray the japanese version doesn't change.

Whatever response that's given will probably just repeat the same arguments said at the beginning of the thread I've already countered, still trying to argue these worlds being separate universes and STILL trying to claim that it's 2-B when nothing indicating such a scope exists within the Japanese which would still be a downgrade.

@Foxthefox1000 When I said I was still in disagreement with the downgrade, I didn't mean I was in total disagreement with it. I meant I was still partially in disagreement because of Executor's argument that if something is called a "Universe" or "World" and that structure fits with our definition of multiversal, complex multiversal, or outerversal, then that is what it will be and DDM'S point that "World", "Dimension", and "Universe" all have interchangeable definitions with some loose details and baselines. World can mean Country/Kingdom, Planet Earth, the Universe, an Emprire/Civilization with variable size that could range anywhere in between, or multiverse. I was mostly trying to take a neutral stand there. Geez, lighten up.

 

[The_Almighty_Wholesome]

I personally think there’s more evidence for The Void being 2-B rather than Low 2-C based on points by Medeus, Executor, DatOneWeeb, and many more.

And a reminder to remember to please remain calm everyone. This is a controversial topic and there’s no reason to say “what’s their to disagree with about my argument” or “why is this worth walls of text” as if to say everyone else’s argument and opinion doesn’t matter. And this goes for whether your for the downgrade or not. Also acting in a harsh manner probably isn’t the best way to go.

But anyways:

Imo, Merlon stating that The Void will destroy the universe in the Japanese version of SPM isn’t a very good point to scale everything off of considering that specific words like “universe”, “world”, etc. can have various different meanings across the Japanese language. Even plural meanings of some of the words could have been meant. Plus if I stated for example “a nuclear bomb will destroy my entire house” would the explosion only scale to my house or more than that given the context of a nuclear bomb? Which leads to the context of everything thats said in the OP that debunks 2-B Void. Personally, I think that NPCs having shops, going, or having knowledge throughout the worlds isn’t enough to downgrade considering the shopkeepers could all be different like how Toads, Goombas, and several other shopkeepers in the Mario series are different. Plus the shopkeeper exists in the UnderWhere (which is known to be Mario hell and there’s a Mario heaven which is constantly emphasized to be there own dimensions/universes) where he could have dimensional traveled based on Weebs points. Same goes for characters that travel throughout different worlds. Plus each world could have their own different variant of known characters, items, and merchandise and TV stations throughout the multiverse. I would even argue that it could be common for the characters that have knowledge of the other worlds to adapt said things to their universes. Also Merlon, Merlee, Bestovious, etc having knowledge of each other isn’t enough to downgrade imo because why wouldn’t they since they are apart of “The Tribe of Ancients.” And the 1500 year time frame doesn’t give the right to downgrade imo because it’s kind of a weird argument to make imo. I mean, does every universe have to have a different way to percept time? It could also just be based Ancients perception of time. And there’s MANY good points that support that the words are the sizes of universes which I’ll repost here so I’m not repeating what they’ve already said.

Thank you Executor for all those important details, they help a lot and speak common sense. Also, I had some people translate offsite and this is what we got.

Was translated into this

But yes, it clearly takes place in a different world/dimension from the one Mario came from. Plus as Executor mentioned above, "World", "Dimension", and "Universe" all have interchangeable definitions with some loose details and baselines. World can mean Country/Kingdom, Planet Earth, the Universe, an Emprire/Civilization with variable size that could range anywhere in between, or multiverse. Dimension typically refers to spatiotemporal stuff; not specifically spatiotemporal dimensions but it either means pocket reality or Universe. Though world usually means either planet Earth or Universe, and can mean pocket reality. But I don't think countless number of High 3-A sized pocket realities are a common assumption. Also, as Executor mentioned, Japanese is also very hard to distinguish plurals from singulars. Meaning all the translations that said "Suck up the entire world" could have meant "Suck up the entire Worlds". And thus multiple universes.

Also, to address the allegations Eficiente made about me overlooking something. I did not overlook the scan I found, while it does say "universe" as opposed to Universes or Multiverses. He's literally saying the very thing Executor noted you should never do. Plus, key word is "And all dimensions within it". Again, dimensions is literally plural. Plus it clearly means Universe in terms of "All time and Space". Saying it destroys 2 or 3 universes but not the entire multiverse would be a Golden Mean fallacy. But we clearly see more than one "World" or "Dimension" get effected, meaning it's unlikely to just mean Low 2-C or 2-C and that the entire multiverse of Mario's cosmology is easily being effected.

Furthermore, we need consistency. Keep in mind, World 4 alone was also called a world/dimension; the latter only at the beginning though. And it's official Japanese name alone is daiuchu, literally meaning "The Universe". So World 4 alone is Universe sized and has multiple "Endless" or "Infinite" statements. It's not consistent for that to be the only one of the 8 objective worlds that isn't a Universe. Plus Merlumina describing them as basically parallel worlds further emphasizes this. Calling them "Worlds" instead of "Dimensions" means absolutely nothing when they contextually mean the same thing. The other 6 worlds can't just be random planets within the same "World/Universe" as World 4 also has part 2 being a planet landed on as well as the edge of the universe being a stage within it. It wouldn't be called "Worlds" instead "Parts of the world" if that was the case. Makes no sense for a much larger portion to be held in the same banner. That would be like if going all over Asia was chapter 4's world in another game while every other world were just random countries within Asia being called worlds on the same sentence as the whole continent itself.

Also, there is evidence that World 1 and World 2 are clearly not Planet Earth or Mushroom Kingdom. See here. World 1 and World 2 have different starry sky structures; within Mario's Universe, the starry skies have relatively similar design and not planet has the skies shaped like math formulas or string theory symbols. But World 1 and World 2 respectively do. These are 1st hints World 1 and World 2 are different bodies of space or even Universe. Combine that that World 4 has traditional starry backgrounds combined with it being a confirmed Universe. Now the next nail in the coffin is World 6, details and references to different worlds are just that, references. It just means World 6 has their own versions of TTYD party or artifacts that look like different worlds artifacts. Not that it's the same universe let alone planet as those other worlds. To further emphases this, visual demonstrations are even better than statements. It cannot be denied that when the Void nukes World 6, it doesn't just destroy the kingdom, but also all the stars in the sky leaving nothing but a blank white background. Which means one of two things, World 6 either takes place in a Tier 4 sized pocket reality, or an entire universe. And a completely different planet from all the less. Keep in mind, nuking all those stars in the background would actually just make galaxies visible, implying it also nuked any galaxies too. So the lowest it could be interpreted is a 3-B feat if we're going to assume it's the body of space as all the rest. But Worlds 1, 2, 4, and 6 are more likely different realities altogether. Especially World 7, which the entire premise is that it's an afterlife. Everyone knows World 7 is basically the Mario multiverse's version of Heaven and Hell being treated as its own world. But even people from other dimensions are implied to go there when they die, including Mario's and people from Flipside. Yes, Flipside is a town, but its also located in its own dimension. Also, even before entering World 6, Merlon makes mention that other worlds might have already been consumed by the void. Which the purpose of Sammer Kingdom's destruction exists to prove his theory right. And as for Bowser jumping off what appears to be an Earth like planet in World 7, it just means Heaven in Mario is located on A planet, much like Dragon Ball's version of Heaven, but that does NOT prove Mario's Universe version of Heaven is physically located on Earth or Mushroom Kingdom. World 7 as a whole is still different from all the rest. Same with Hell having it's own unique sky structure.

I am not the most interested to discuss Dream Team cosmology, but Super Paper Mario still has 2-B shenanigans and clearly effects the entire cosmology. And I never agreed with Tribe of Darkness's own dimension not being a dimension. It's the exact same feat as the Sammer Kingdom one. And when a Void reaches a dimension, it nukes everything; stars in the sky, galaxy that would be visible in the background, "All time and space" everything. And Executor is 100% right on the time flow stuff.

A few things that I want to say here

First, never take the "name of something about how we consider that name to mean" to be the only way to analyze something. In the same way that we don't make something Tier 1-A because it was called "Outerverse", simply because something is called "Universe" doesn't mean that it's only High 3-A/Low 2-C.

The Tiering system is based on the complexity of a structure, not its name. If someone takes an infinite-dimensional space and names it a city block, this would not mean that it's only a City Block level. If something is called a "Universe" or "World" and that structure fits with our definition of multiversal, complex multiversal, or outerversal, then that is what it will be.

I can remember a few instances of authors not using the word "multiverse" because it's a useless word. Universe by definition already means "everything", so having a different word for that same thing isn't a necessity. Even calling something a "Smaller Something" sometimes is more about how to place it in the larger cosmology rather than saying it's small (And yes, I can give examples about all of this).

The kanjis in the words for "Universe" (宇宙) and "World" (世界) originally meant "All of Time" and "All of Space" and its meaning was to say that everything under infinite time and infinite space was "Universe/World". And of course, just to say how complex Japanese can be when you try to fit it into a "battle boarding" mindset, remember that nowadays the word "宇宙" can also simply be used to mean the outer space and not its original "All of the space-time" meaning. So if you have a scene about "Uchu" and it's about the Outerspace... most likely the word "Uchu" is simply being used to describe the Outerspace rather than the space-time structure. See how words can carry different meanings, which changes a lot with context? I even have examples of the meaning not being consistent in a single franchise and different authors having different ideas of what that word means. It can always be complicated.

In fact, remember, Japanese can be vague with plural. Just because something is simply "世界" doesn't mean it's always "World", it could also mean "Worlds". And this also enters in conflict with another word used a lot "すべて" (Subete), a word that can mean both "the entirety of something", "everything", "all of", "all" and much more.

The term used in the first scan from Paper Mario is "世界のすべて" (Sekai no subete). Normally in Japanese the particle "の" is used in possession, normally "Someone's something" with "の" being the " 's ". Of course, I have already seen some people state that it can also be used in the opposite direction, and that can create vagueness, but that isn't necessary here.

In the very way that the language is vague, "世界のすべて" (Sekai no subete) could mean "Everything in the world", or even "Everything in the worlds". In a similar way, if "すべての世界" (Subete no Sekai) was used, it could also mean both "The entire World" and "Every World/All the Worlds" and as expected, it could also be the reason why some official translations can give a different idea of what happens in relation to the original text. The team behind the translation can have got a different idea, they could have simply the need to change and somehow make the game more appealing and things like that. No translation is really created "equally" even by the same person in the same company. That is why it's always necessary to look for context and the various ways of interpreting the work before going to "this is what this means".

I'm explaining this here because I saw a few people complaining about the translation subject and wanted to give more insight into it (Also, I'll be making something similar for Digimon when I have time, so I need to be sure that not everyone hates this...).

Anyway, if the structure "すべての世界" (Subete no Sekai) was used more often I could definitely see that just being the vagueness of plural and it could mean both "the entire world" or "every world", but I didn't see that in any of the scans. Of course, just "Sekai" alone could also mean "Worlds" (Even if the intended translation is also World, worlds within World isn't really something out of the standard), it would depend entirely on how the 'world/s" is structured.

And about that, remember that "same time-flow" doesn't mean "same space-time". The two things are simply unrelated and the flow of time is useless to determine if two "worlds" are separated by space-time as this Wiki considers them. Simply being parallel spaces across an extra-dimensional axis is enough, so the flow of time could perfectly be the same between them, as well as they could be different. In the same way, two different places could have totally different flows of time and still be within the same "space-time" (In a way, all of them could be in and not be in the same space-time depending on what someone means by that, again, that is why understanding the structure is important).

I was requested to send this in response to the thread, I think it makes some good points:

Fox Keks...

docs.google.com

Overall there’s several reasons that I have seen to say that I completely disagree with the downgrade on SPM. As for Dream Team, I’m still fairly neutral however there’s no evidence 100% stating that the Dream Stone isn’t drawing power from the universes of the dreams and I’m fairly confused on what’s happening if the Dream Stone doesn’t draw power from everyone’s dream on the island.

 

[Eseseso]

Reluctant agree

 

[Omnificence]

Also wanted to recommend this post about Paper Mario's transdimensional scissors. I know it's from another wiki, but I was hoping it'd help you all.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm still going to post more rebuttals to some things above when I get the time, but I will have to work soon.

 

[Eseseso]

Actually, I'm gonna switch to neutral for now.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm still going to post more rebuttals to some things above when I get the time, but I will have to work soon.

No problem. Please take your time, and don't overwork yourself.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'd just like to say that I agree with the OP. I took the time to read it and I think it makes sense.

Didn't read the rest of the thread tho.

 

[Omnificence]

I am now neutral on this because there are different sides of this coin that I agree with such as Executor's argument on "worlds" being another name and the Universe/Space part of the OP being a Low 2-C feat.