- 17,373
- 12,848
I apologize for my demeanour though. I'll try to keep it more dignified. It's just frustrating when I've already countered certain arguments and it feels like people are ignoring what I've said so far.
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
I apologize for my demeanour though. I'll try to keep it more dignified. It's just frustrating when I've already countered certain arguments and it feels like people are ignoring what I've said so far.
So, this seems in context that you're agreeing and normalizing how little focus others put into the thread, which if so is terrible but idk if you aimed at that. As a reply to quoting someone saying "I see no one is actually rebutting nor acknowledging my arguments" it comes off as a comfortable excuse. Yes this thread should have been better constructed with better clarifications in the OP, but not because any random person is required to do this extra work if they aim to do something similar in the wiki, but to account for other things that are not their fault. I don't know if you knew this already was a staff thread. No need to reply to this, just wanted to tackle the "this is how things should be" aspect of that comment.just close this thread, make a staff discussion and then post it mate, add some more evidence while you're at it. Big nerfs need big effort not a crt open to everyone and their dead great great grandma
Dreams are the same as reality warping.Disagree.
The Dream Stone possesses the power of dreams, which are 2-B. Whether or not it is made of dreams is irrelevant if it is blatantly said to be as strong as them. It logically follows that Dimentio and Dreamy Bowser scale.
Your assumption that people are speaking in flowery language about the world being destroyed is a personal Interpretation and an unfalsifiable claim. Such subjectivity has no place here. The villain's are treated as an existential threat by the narrative. Character statements that match it should be considered accurate.
Let's talk about world. You're really hyperfixiating on whatever possible tiny difference whether or not it makes sense in context. Dimension and world are very frequently used interchangeably in real life and fiction, inferring that here is not a stretch. Statements about "All the world", "Everything in the world", etc. should be taken as multiversal as since said statements imply the entire cosmology, not a localized area.
Ffs you're misinterpretation raws.
"The proof of it not mentioning "universe" " How did you translate this one?The proof of it not mentioning "universe"
It leaves it vague as "wherever you are" and "from anywhere" but doesn't directly state those places have to be within the universe
So again, no contradictions, and Japanese takes precedence since the English adds words that don't have to be there and create a new meaning and has mistranslations and many different instances of altering information present in the Japanese like censoring death and Hell. Plus, Korean and Chinese versions are the same as the Japanese in that only "worlds" are mentioned mostly and "the universe" or "the world" is what's at stake. And again, the only actual world called a different dimension was Mario's and by extension this new dimension. There's no statement to imply Mario's world was in danger too as well as I've shown.
Anything else we need the Japanese to brutally murder?
All worlds refer to everything that is considered a world, which includes universesThe most important one from Merlon at the start has been though. And "all worlds" otherwise isn't great support anyways as it can just be referring to the lands (worlds) of the game
Well, there is this page which compares and contrasts "universe" and "world". You probably already seen and read it, but just gonna put it here as a refresher.And "all worlds" otherwise isn't great support anyways as it can just be referring to the lands (worlds) of the game.
@Kirbonic_Pikmin I said that I agree that the dimensions part of his OP is a bit more of a 2-C feat, and the Universe/Space part would be a Low 2-C feat.I don't feel he's acting hostile at this point, his points seem to generally be getting completely ignored and I still haven't seen any points that genuinely refute the Japanese text just, not having any of the evidence for 2B.
@Foxthefox1000 When I said I was still in disagreement with the downgrade, I didn't mean I was in total disagreement with it. I meant I was still partially in disagreement because of Executor's argument that if something is called a "Universe" or "World" and that structure fits with our definition of multiversal, complex multiversal, or outerversal, then that is what it will be and DDM'S point that "World", "Dimension", and "Universe" all have interchangeable definitions with some loose details and baselines. World can mean Country/Kingdom, Planet Earth, the Universe, an Emprire/Civilization with variable size that could range anywhere in between, or multiverse. I was mostly trying to take a neutral stand there.What is there to disagree with? The assumption that these are whole universes doesn't make any sense.
You literally cannot argue against the literal text and cutscenes of the game. Your interpretation means nothing without sufficient context, so if you do argue for it, try and find specific context that explicitly confirms that these could be separate universes and pray the japanese version doesn't change.
Whatever response that's given will probably just repeat the same arguments said at the beginning of the thread I've already countered, still trying to argue these worlds being separate universes and STILL trying to claim that it's 2-B when nothing indicating such a scope exists within the Japanese which would still be a downgrade.
Thank you Executor for all those important details, they help a lot and speak common sense. Also, I had some people translate offsite and this is what we got.
Was translated into this
But yes, it clearly takes place in a different world/dimension from the one Mario came from. Plus as Executor mentioned above, "World", "Dimension", and "Universe" all have interchangeable definitions with some loose details and baselines. World can mean Country/Kingdom, Planet Earth, the Universe, an Emprire/Civilization with variable size that could range anywhere in between, or multiverse. Dimension typically refers to spatiotemporal stuff; not specifically spatiotemporal dimensions but it either means pocket reality or Universe. Though world usually means either planet Earth or Universe, and can mean pocket reality. But I don't think countless number of High 3-A sized pocket realities are a common assumption. Also, as Executor mentioned, Japanese is also very hard to distinguish plurals from singulars. Meaning all the translations that said "Suck up the entire world" could have meant "Suck up the entire Worlds". And thus multiple universes.
Also, to address the allegations Eficiente made about me overlooking something. I did not overlook the scan I found, while it does say "universe" as opposed to Universes or Multiverses. He's literally saying the very thing Executor noted you should never do. Plus, key word is "And all dimensions within it". Again, dimensions is literally plural. Plus it clearly means Universe in terms of "All time and Space". Saying it destroys 2 or 3 universes but not the entire multiverse would be a Golden Mean fallacy. But we clearly see more than one "World" or "Dimension" get effected, meaning it's unlikely to just mean Low 2-C or 2-C and that the entire multiverse of Mario's cosmology is easily being effected.
Furthermore, we need consistency. Keep in mind, World 4 alone was also called a world/dimension; the latter only at the beginning though. And it's official Japanese name alone is daiuchu, literally meaning "The Universe". So World 4 alone is Universe sized and has multiple "Endless" or "Infinite" statements. It's not consistent for that to be the only one of the 8 objective worlds that isn't a Universe. Plus Merlumina describing them as basically parallel worlds further emphasizes this. Calling them "Worlds" instead of "Dimensions" means absolutely nothing when they contextually mean the same thing. The other 6 worlds can't just be random planets within the same "World/Universe" as World 4 also has part 2 being a planet landed on as well as the edge of the universe being a stage within it. It wouldn't be called "Worlds" instead "Parts of the world" if that was the case. Makes no sense for a much larger portion to be held in the same banner. That would be like if going all over Asia was chapter 4's world in another game while every other world were just random countries within Asia being called worlds on the same sentence as the whole continent itself.
Also, there is evidence that World 1 and World 2 are clearly not Planet Earth or Mushroom Kingdom. See here. World 1 and World 2 have different starry sky structures; within Mario's Universe, the starry skies have relatively similar design and not planet has the skies shaped like math formulas or string theory symbols. But World 1 and World 2 respectively do. These are 1st hints World 1 and World 2 are different bodies of space or even Universe. Combine that that World 4 has traditional starry backgrounds combined with it being a confirmed Universe. Now the next nail in the coffin is World 6, details and references to different worlds are just that, references. It just means World 6 has their own versions of TTYD party or artifacts that look like different worlds artifacts. Not that it's the same universe let alone planet as those other worlds. To further emphases this, visual demonstrations are even better than statements. It cannot be denied that when the Void nukes World 6, it doesn't just destroy the kingdom, but also all the stars in the sky leaving nothing but a blank white background. Which means one of two things, World 6 either takes place in a Tier 4 sized pocket reality, or an entire universe. And a completely different planet from all the less. Keep in mind, nuking all those stars in the background would actually just make galaxies visible, implying it also nuked any galaxies too. So the lowest it could be interpreted is a 3-B feat if we're going to assume it's the body of space as all the rest. But Worlds 1, 2, 4, and 6 are more likely different realities altogether. Especially World 7, which the entire premise is that it's an afterlife. Everyone knows World 7 is basically the Mario multiverse's version of Heaven and Hell being treated as its own world. But even people from other dimensions are implied to go there when they die, including Mario's and people from Flipside. Yes, Flipside is a town, but its also located in its own dimension. Also, even before entering World 6, Merlon makes mention that other worlds might have already been consumed by the void. Which the purpose of Sammer Kingdom's destruction exists to prove his theory right. And as for Bowser jumping off what appears to be an Earth like planet in World 7, it just means Heaven in Mario is located on A planet, much like Dragon Ball's version of Heaven, but that does NOT prove Mario's Universe version of Heaven is physically located on Earth or Mushroom Kingdom. World 7 as a whole is still different from all the rest. Same with Hell having it's own unique sky structure.
I am not the most interested to discuss Dream Team cosmology, but Super Paper Mario still has 2-B shenanigans and clearly effects the entire cosmology. And I never agreed with Tribe of Darkness's own dimension not being a dimension. It's the exact same feat as the Sammer Kingdom one. And when a Void reaches a dimension, it nukes everything; stars in the sky, galaxy that would be visible in the background, "All time and space" everything. And Executor is 100% right on the time flow stuff.
A few things that I want to say here
First, never take the "name of something about how we consider that name to mean" to be the only way to analyze something. In the same way that we don't make something Tier 1-A because it was called "Outerverse", simply because something is called "Universe" doesn't mean that it's only High 3-A/Low 2-C.
The Tiering system is based on the complexity of a structure, not its name. If someone takes an infinite-dimensional space and names it a city block, this would not mean that it's only a City Block level. If something is called a "Universe" or "World" and that structure fits with our definition of multiversal, complex multiversal, or outerversal, then that is what it will be.
I can remember a few instances of authors not using the word "multiverse" because it's a useless word. Universe by definition already means "everything", so having a different word for that same thing isn't a necessity. Even calling something a "Smaller Something" sometimes is more about how to place it in the larger cosmology rather than saying it's small (And yes, I can give examples about all of this).
The kanjis in the words for "Universe" (宇宙) and "World" (世界) originally meant "All of Time" and "All of Space" and its meaning was to say that everything under infinite time and infinite space was "Universe/World". And of course, just to say how complex Japanese can be when you try to fit it into a "battle boarding" mindset, remember that nowadays the word "宇宙" can also simply be used to mean the outer space and not its original "All of the space-time" meaning. So if you have a scene about "Uchu" and it's about the Outerspace... most likely the word "Uchu" is simply being used to describe the Outerspace rather than the space-time structure. See how words can carry different meanings, which changes a lot with context? I even have examples of the meaning not being consistent in a single franchise and different authors having different ideas of what that word means. It can always be complicated.
In fact, remember, Japanese can be vague with plural. Just because something is simply "世界" doesn't mean it's always "World", it could also mean "Worlds". And this also enters in conflict with another word used a lot "すべて" (Subete), a word that can mean both "the entirety of something", "everything", "all of", "all" and much more.
The term used in the first scan from Paper Mario is "世界のすべて" (Sekai no subete). Normally in Japanese the particle "の" is used in possession, normally "Someone's something" with "の" being the " 's ". Of course, I have already seen some people state that it can also be used in the opposite direction, and that can create vagueness, but that isn't necessary here.
In the very way that the language is vague, "世界のすべて" (Sekai no subete) could mean "Everything in the world", or even "Everything in the worlds". In a similar way, if "すべての世界" (Subete no Sekai) was used, it could also mean both "The entire World" and "Every World/All the Worlds" and as expected, it could also be the reason why some official translations can give a different idea of what happens in relation to the original text. The team behind the translation can have got a different idea, they could have simply the need to change and somehow make the game more appealing and things like that. No translation is really created "equally" even by the same person in the same company. That is why it's always necessary to look for context and the various ways of interpreting the work before going to "this is what this means".
I'm explaining this here because I saw a few people complaining about the translation subject and wanted to give more insight into it (Also, I'll be making something similar for Digimon when I have time, so I need to be sure that not everyone hates this...).
Anyway, if the structure "すべての世界" (Subete no Sekai) was used more often I could definitely see that just being the vagueness of plural and it could mean both "the entire world" or "every world", but I didn't see that in any of the scans. Of course, just "Sekai" alone could also mean "Worlds" (Even if the intended translation is also World, worlds within World isn't really something out of the standard), it would depend entirely on how the 'world/s" is structured.
And about that, remember that "same time-flow" doesn't mean "same space-time". The two things are simply unrelated and the flow of time is useless to determine if two "worlds" are separated by space-time as this Wiki considers them. Simply being parallel spaces across an extra-dimensional axis is enough, so the flow of time could perfectly be the same between them, as well as they could be different. In the same way, two different places could have totally different flows of time and still be within the same "space-time" (In a way, all of them could be in and not be in the same space-time depending on what someone means by that, again, that is why understanding the structure is important).
Overall there’s several reasons that I have seen to say that I completely disagree with the downgrade on SPM. As for Dream Team, I’m still fairly neutral however there’s no evidence 100% stating that the Dream Stone isn’t drawing power from the universes of the dreams and I’m fairly confused on what’s happening if the Dream Stone doesn’t draw power from everyone’s dream on the island.I was requested to send this in response to the thread, I think it makes some good points:
Fox Keks...
So, Fox decided to run off from me after knowing damn well he couldn’t make a response. If you don’t know me, I’m DatOneWeeb, or Blaze. No, I will not return to VSBW, nor ever will, but Fox has been lying about his arguments. I don’t care for the wiki, but I do dislike people who run and use argu...docs.google.com
No problem. Please take your time, and don't overwork yourself.I'm still going to post more rebuttals to some things above when I get the time, but I will have to work soon.