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SMT Revisions 3.0

Ishtar may be 2-A, since in SMT IV, both Asherah and Mother Harlot stem from her being, as they were created in echo of her, and their Souls are necessary so she can be reborn.
 
I guess that I will make the changes then.

Are there any profiles need to be unlocked for a faster revision?
 
I got the listed of related Tier 2 profiles, it is faster if we known everthing and I could unlock some profile if they need work:

Source: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/S...tegory:Tier+2&limit=200&wpSubmit=Find+matches
 
I don't like how everyone is being made 2-A. Not every high-leveled demon, god, and boss scales to 2-A. Most demons aren't even Tier 2.
 
Also, the Protagonist (Strange Journey) is Low 2-C and above from the suit. Crews with the suits were easily killed by low-level demon; it is when they got the Demon Summoning Apps that they could fight demons. The suits is does "not" make them Low 2-C or higher. It is the protagonist who has the rating and the crew as well.

In the Original neutral Ending, it looks like the protagonist gave up his powers to become a regular human

https://youtu.be/9UlZDOieUVY?t=306


Also, in Games like Devil Survivor and Devil Survivor 2, those with the Devil Summoning apps are stated not to be normal human anymore even by demons. From Devil Survivor:

Likewise, I don't understand why Devil Survivor 2 demons aren't viewed as demons when they are stated to be summoned by the app:

Edit: fixed mistakes
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Also Boss-order isn't a way to scale.
Click to expand...
Matthew, we try not just used boss order: optional or non-optional bosses order- (which takes more precedence). We used the major stories appearance in games as they are mostly canonical boss for rating. They tend to be mostly featless/lower tier from Compendium lore in other games and using their level as a gauge to know if they are powerful demons which help us to know if their story appearances aren't PIS.

For characters like Adramelech (Shin Megami Tensei), they only have their major appearance in the SMT IV Apocalypse and their no major plot hole here.

Also, Demons like Quetzalcoatl (Shin Megami Tensei) are displayed as some of the strongest in-games: 1, 2, 3. Levels alone aren't enough as in-game feats matters, though. https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Shin_Megami_Tensei:_Strange_Journey_Demons https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Shin_Megami_Tensei_IV_Demons

I think using Compendium lore can be bad to scale too as there are numerous cases where it fails like in the [case https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Masakado#Shin_Megami_Tensei_IV] of Masakado (Shin Megami Tensei)
 
Also, why is Loki just Low 2-C: I can't find his justification at all from games: (Holds an entire Universe as a mere extension of himself in the Expanse, and his death triggered its collapse)

Based, on what I have seen; he would be 2-A at least:

  • In Devil Survivor, I believe he fought after the Protagonist would already have defeated the four devas, in an earlier day which should be day 6, like Bishamonten (Shin Megami Tensei) who 2-A feats
  • In SMT IV apocalypse, though non-optional boss, he fought Nanashi's who had many 2-A feats: https://youtu.be/PTyxy1BB22c?t=2044
  • In a game, he was defeated by Izanami
Other sources:

 
I am sorry but Quetzalcoatl and Adramelech being 2-A is just wank, neither of them have any feats on that level. Boss Order creates messy scaling. Just because bosses fight the heroes doesn't make them 2-A. Seriously. You're making everyone 2-A with little care for consistency.
 
Matt, I do care about consistencies the way as I explained it; it just that there no way to view consistencies besides story feats. Quetzalcoatl never really had a major appearance in SMT stories like Optional boss or non-optional boss but only as a summonable demon in SMT until SMT IV Apocalypse. I research their appearances and their story feats; I guess one could say their feats come from Powerscaling.

Adramelech (Shin Megami Tensei), only major appearance is in SMT IV Apocalypse where it is Plot focused. Adramelech (Shin Megami Tensei), in his first boss fight, wasn't defeated, he stated Nanashi is empowered by God which is Dagda (Shin Megami Tensei) who is more powerful in any case.
 
Yeah, but neither of them should scale to Shesha, who is literally treated as the biggest weapon in the Divine Powers' arsenal, surpassed only by Krishna and probably Mithra-Buddha, it makes no sense for random members of the Powers to be anywhere near comparable to the thing.

Not to mention that neither Adramelech nor the Power sent by Merkabah did any meaningful damage to Shesha during its boss fight, only the Spear of Michael and Ame-no-Habakiri could inflict significant harm to it.
 
Demon levels are also not valid, even if you restrict to the same race alone. There's cases of a demon who's a tree being stronger than continental-sized birds.
 
Dude, you can't use Boss Order, how many times must we explain this. Gameplay isn't a feat. Merely fighting the MCs don't make a character 2-A.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Demon levels are also not valid, even if you restrict to the same race alone. There's cases of a demon who's a tree being stronger than continental-sized birds.
Click to expand...
I agree; it does help you know which demons are more notable
 
Ultima Reality said:
Yeah, but neither of them should scale to Shesha, who is literally treated as the biggest weapon in the Divine Powers' arsenal, surpassed only by Krishna and probably Mithra-Buddha, it makes no sense for random members of the Powers to be anywhere near comparable to the thing.
Not to mention that neither Adramelech nor the Power sent by Merkabah did any meaningful damage to Shesha during its boss fight, only the Spear of Michael and Ame-no-Habakiri could inflict significant harm to it.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't it be best to scale them from The Four Heavenly Kings like Bishamonten (Shin Megami Tensei) which are 2-A and there are also used as justification for Shesha's rating?
 
Slapping the Four Heavenly Kings into everyone's profile is wrong, on some characters like Archangels and Asura it makes sense, but on a lot of characters it's weird since they have no relationship with them.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Dude, you can't use Boss Order, how many times must we explain this. Gameplay isn't a feat. Merely fighting the MCs don't make a character 2-A.
Click to expand...
Regarding scaling, if Powerscaling from an abundance story feats don't matter from non-optional or optional boss, demons Compendium which tends to inaccurate for feats doesn't matter, a level which helps to know if a character is notable does not matter, then besides Feats nothing matter at all for demons?
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Demon Compendiums are much more accurate than level stats and boss order for non-story essential demons
Click to expand...
So, per say, Fenrir could scale to Odi via being stated in almost any game's compendium description to be destined to kill him at ragnarok?
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Demon Compendiums are much more accurate than level stats and boss order for non-story essential demons
Click to expand...
It does depend on the nature of demons such if they are angels, deities or demon lords who tend to fall into Tier 2.

Matthew Schroeder said:
Slapping the Four Heavenly Kings into everyone's profile is wrong, on some characters like Archangels and Asura it makes sense, but on a lot of characters it's weird since they have no relationship with them.
Click to expand...
So, Matt and Ultima Reality, to alleviated my confusion, I think you are saying:

Tier 2-A and above for only demon characters who directly interacted story-wise or have lore relationship with characters like the Archangels, Four Heavenly King, YHVH's avatars, and similar chracters Tier 2-A or above characters right?

Others Tier 2 demons like Deities would scale to beings more powerful than Morax (Shin Megami Tensei), right?

In any case, unlike majorities of Video Games, no matter the option whether optional or non-optional status, the protagonists' tier should not be used for ranking of demons, right?
 
I think the way the Tier 2 scaling is handle would mean Demons lords and deities, in general, would fall into the Tier 2 Low 2-C or 2-C range, if I am correct

Edit
 
Power, Quetzalcoatl and Adramelech are the ones I'm really iffy on. Maybe Loki and Thor as well.

Shemyaza, Lucifuge, and Belial are still 2-A, boss order or no. I can't honestly imagine them being any lower, given that they're major members of Lucifer's forces, similar to Beelzebub and Mara.

Surt is still 2-A for his role in SMTI. Mada and Mot may scale to him, as they should be comparable.

Mastema being 2-A I'm also perfectly fine with. Same with Ishtar.

Slightly unrelated, but do we know which tier Forneus qualifies for?
 
Beelzebub is like, the strongest among the Angels who fell from Heaven, and is Lucifer's absolute right-hand man who commands hordes of Demons by his side, him being compared to people like Samyaza and Lucifuge makes no sense.
 
Also, In an argument, wank would be closely associated with Fallacy. Saying someone wanks is similar to calling someone a wanker which is a derogatory term as listed on VS Battles Staff. The word "wank", itself, is a derogatory term: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english-spanish/wank

Its definition is closely associated to "bullshit", in our context: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english-spanish/bullshit

  • Wanker: A derogatory term used to describe users who inflate character or verse statistics to massive levels over faulty logic or vague evidence. Use of this term is generally frowned upon, but even Staff members have been known to use it when agitated or tired.
I would appreciate if you guys, who did it, don't repeat this anymore.
 
Asatroth, Surt, and Arioch would have to be 2-A in order to counter the Archangels in the Cathedral. There wouldn't be much of a standstill if they weren't at least comparable.

I'll agree to disagree on the point of Shemyaza and Lucifuge, though them being merely Low 2-C or 2-C seems just a bit laughable.
 
Shemyaza and Lucifuge, I also disagree with their if we look at their interacting with 2-A characters and being with the same ballpark to Asatroth as Lucifer's strongest helpers, then they would be Tier 2-A
 
Jaakuace44 said:
Asatroth, Surt, and Arioch would have to be 2-A in order to counter the Archangels in the Cathedral. There wouldn't be much of a standstill if they weren't at least comparable.
I'll agree to disagree on the point of Shemyaza and Lucifuge, though them being merely Low 2-C or 2-C seems just a bit laughable.
Click to expand...
If canonical interactions with 2-A characters, which I now believe to the be correct standard , I agree with statements.
 
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