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SMT Revisions 3.0

I am in agreement with Matt. I am having the same issues with Persona for similar reasons. Boss order is not a feat. Otherwise. Metatron would be > Lucifer and Merkabah because in Apocalypse you fight him long after them and even the Divine Powers. Not to mention you'd also have Odin > Lucy and Merk, which is nonsense.

Half of these demons are by no means even superior to Kagutsuchi. SMT does not have THAT many 2-As...come on guys.
 
I dont see why we couldnt use it. Belberith should be 2-A bia scaling from Beelzebub, right?

Edit: Regarding boss order, I see where you are comming from, but at least in Devil survivor it was a plot point that the protagonist was getting stronger everytime he defeated a contender for the throne of Bel. So boss order should work the the case of the Bel demons.
 
Sera EX, boss order is not used, regarding Loki. I am using his interaction with 2-A characters not boss order. The statement about the Four Deva king would prove to make him 2-A
 
Ok, Sera EX, sorry for the misunderstanding; I also now disagree about boss order. Demons scaling from Storyline feats works better.

While I agree on the topic on Boss order now, I did hate the fact that people who disagree never with it told me what matters or propose a solution for the scaling which I had to figure it out myself.
 
If I recall correctly Belberith tanked an attack YHVH or something like that in one of the endings, this was the version that had absorbed the most Bel demons.
 
Ercosore said:
I dont see why we couldnt use it. Belberith should be 2-A bia scaling from Beelzebub, right?

Edit: Regarding boss order, I see where you are comming from, but at least in Devil survivor it was a plot point that the protagonist was getting stronger everytime he defeated a contender for the throne of Bel. So boss order should work the the case of the Bel demons.
Click to expand...
He has a large part of Bel's power and 2-A story feats.

https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Belberith

Jezabel's in his command have Tier 2-A feats as she defeated the One of the Four deva. Belberith should also scale to her.

https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Jezebel
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Sera is completely right on the 2-A deal.
Click to expand...
I do agree on the topic but I believe we should discuss the solution for the scaling when we disagree because SMT Demons is complex unlike other verses and not discussing the solution for the scaling can lead to confusion as it did for me.

I think what I proposed the Tier 2 Demons scaling is a fine solution and I believe this how we have for characters like Asura (Shin Megami Tensei) who fall with this standard.
 
I think the scaling was just messed up when it comes to SMT4A, the other games are faithful when it comes to scaling, at least established ones examples like Odin originally being far weaker then Lucifer.
 
PairusDragonoid said:
Go to: 2. Mem Aleph its interesting
Click to expand...
Ym could be 2-A due to his relationship to Baal

Devil Survivor 2

A dragon that appears in ancient Semitic lore of the Palestinian region. He is enemies with Baal, the god of fertility and agriculture.
He gains his powers by dwelling underwater and ruling the seas and rivers, where he causes floods. Baal defeated him, but since there are similarities to Tiamat's death at Marduk's hands in Babylonian lore, some believe that Ym and Tiamat are the same being.
~ Devil Survivor 2 compendium​
Yatagarasu(el), the crow angel could Tier 2-A since he is a Cosmic Fruit
 
Mot may also be 2-A, given his connection to Baal.

Then again, Mot is also weaker than Baal Avatar in Nocturne, so that could be debatable.
 
Jaakuace44 said:
Mot may also be 2-A, given his connection to Baal.
Then again, Mot is also weaker than Baal Avatar in Nocturne, so that could be debatable.
Click to expand...
By Lore and Compendium Mot kill Ball and Anat Kill Mot in and eternal Circle, by Feats Baal > Mot in all of SMT.


ALso, i hope all of the Demons would have 2A and more in his real/home, The Expanse in the future (Hope SMT5 brings us this, The father of Angra and Asura Mazda, the Ein Soph and some other philosoficals, Culturals, Religions concepts.., also Expandin more the Cuantum Observation (Observation/understanding)
 
What's up with all the Lucifer stuff? His description seems slanted regarding the Satan stuff. They are nigh equals, and it makes it seem like Luci thought he was gonna get his ass kicked.

Also isn't it confirmed in SMT4A that Lucifer in that game is just Satan masquerading as him?
 
I am saying the "Lucifer" in that game is not Helel, the rebel angel from prior titles. It goes against his whole origin and prior events in the games. It may also be why he is completely different in appearence.
 
Someone (I think it was Matt) mentioned it was never explicitly confirmed so we can't assume that was the case.
 
It doesn't need to be explicitly confirmed though. It's incongruent with already established occurences. Helel was gods archangel and Michael's brother. He fell from heaven. Satan is god's judgement and acts as the "adversary" to test men's piety. They are legit peers in SMT 2.

This "Lucifer" is split from Satan. Essentially God saw rebellious tendencies within him and thus he was split into two forms being the extreme of both sides. Lucifer's true form has always been some variation of his original angel self (either still pure or corrupted green devil looking), yet in this game he is clearly designed different and much more alien looking.

The most reasonable assumption is that this Lucifer is clearly not the one already established across the rest of the franchise via said origin, characteristics, etc.
 
The Lucifer we see in Apocalypse is clearly the same one that appears in previous games, what happened was a Retcon caused by the Writers interpreting the character in a different way after several decades of Video Games.

In fact, Apocalypse's interpretation of the series is that YHVH has been controlling the entire conflict between Law and Chaos since the beginning. This is indicated by Krishna'e dialogue in the Cosmic Egg, where he states (Among many other things) that YHVH created the Universe in a way that was crucible for Human Suffering, and then made Lucifer in order to deceive Humanity and unwillingly assist in the goal of prolonging its suffering.

This actually fits with the whole premise of the game, and the distinction between it and IV. Whereas IV is supposed to be a storyline centered around the traditional Law-Neutral-Chaos framework, Apocalypse is supposed to be the Protagonist(s) subverting this conflict and taking a third option.
 
Ultima Reality said:
The Lucifer we see in Apocalypse is clearly the same one that appears in previous games, what happened was a Retcon caused by the Writers interpreting the character in a different way after several decades of Video Games.
In fact, Apocalypse's interpretation of the series is that YHVH has been controlling the entire conflict between Law and Chaos since the beginning. This is indicated by Krishna'e dialogue in the Cosmic Egg, where he states (Among many other things) that YHVH created the Universe in a way that was crucible for Human Suffering, and then made Lucifer in order to deceive Humanity and unwillingly assist in this goal.

This actually fits with the whole premise of the game, and the distinction between it and IV. Whereas IV is supposed to be a storyline centered around the traditional Law-Neutral-Chaos framework, Apocalypse is supposed to be the Protagonist(s) subverting this conflict and taking a third option.
Click to expand...


How was Satan going to fight half of Satan? Who was also at the same time split in half as Mercabah? Those are distinct events in which they are clearly two distinct entities.
 
It's called a Retcon, and I am fairly sure that YHVH could have manipulated these events by rewritting history, or something, considering the fact that Apocalypse paints him as a Transcendent God who controls the entire Verse from above and is responsible for the entire conflict between Law and Chaos (As well as its perpetuation throughout existence), and that SMT II was clearly not forgotten, since Messiahs on the Diamond Realm is a thing.
 
Ultima Reality said:
It's called a Retcon, and I am fairly sure that YHVH could have manipulated these events by rewritting history, or something, considering the fact that Apocalypse paints him as a Transcendent God who controls the entire Verse from above, and who is responsible for the entire conflict between Law and Chaos and its perpetuation throughout existence, and that SMT II was clearly not forgotten, since Messiahs on the Diamon Realm is a thing.
Click to expand...
> If he rewrote history for the retcon then the Helel from SMT is still a distinct entity for all intents and purposes. It doesn't make sense for that Helel at that time to be half of Satan from multiple standspoints, which lends itself to this not being the same Helel, which I also think is once again highlighted by the sudden change in appearence from Lucifer from his Helel form to whatever he was supossed to be in Apocalypse.

I'm pretty sure SMT 5 should clear this up.
 
>Whatever the hell he is supposed to be in Apocalypse

The artist actually said that his intent was to showcase Lucifer as a noble figure, with his exaggerated traits and golden clothing being present to invoke divine imagery, and his bloated hand representing his hidden demonic nature in the form of an Egg.

which is pretty ******* stupid but ok
 
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