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SMT Revisions 2.0

Forneus in DSJ what tier would have and Is it the same as in Nocturne or DSJ make him stronger? this will get Demifiend more broken or not?
 
Alright, so.

Here's something to look at. I'm not quite sure how valid it is, but I do find it to be of some note.

If I'm right about this, Demi-fiend is able to fight with regular Archangels and Powers, putting him at At least 8-A, likely 6-A or Low 2-C.

It should be noted that the area pictured is accessible without sequence-breaking, and that the enemies there are entirely beatable, even without grinding.

It's a pretty big jump, mind you. I can't imagine a Demi-fiend just entering the Amala Network would be able to do what a Demi-fiend that's about to fight Matador does.

Maybe making a new key and fitting it between Beginning of Game and Early-game would be better. It would make a degree of sense, since this isn't too long before Demi-fiend fights Matador (who is Low 2-C himself).

Screenshot 82
This is Shiba, an area Demi-fiend can go to early on in the game, after exiting the Amala Network and before fighting Matador.


Screenshot 86
In this area, you are able to fight Archangels (said to possibly be 6-A) and Powers (Low 2-C). Demi-fiend can fight on par with these demons and beat them (albeit with a bit of strategy).


Screenshot 84
This is the level I was at when fighting these demons. Totally doable.
 
...Wh-what

But their pages have them listed at possibly 6-A and Low 2-C respectively. Are you sure you're referring to the right keys there?
 
Oof. On second thought, all of the Divine race demons are missing their High-Godly regen. Might wanna wait until those get an update before even considering using them for scaling.
 
Jaakuace44 said:
Oof. On second thought, all of the Divine race demons are missing their High-Godly regen. Might wanna wait until those get an update before even considering using them for scaling.
Click to expand...
For the angels, I just saw; the archangels and above have them

Also regarding this: Universe level+ (The Powers assisted God with Creation, and a Power was capable of doing minor damage to Shesha) Damaging Shesha is a 2-A feat
 
I'm not sure I'd go that far. If that were the case, the scaling would be out of wack entirely, even without scaling Demi-fiend to enemies such as Archangels or Powers. Virtues, Dominions, Thrones, etc. would also be 2-A simply by being stronger than Power, which would be stretching things a bit much.
 
Jaakuace44 said:
I'm not sure I'd go that far. If that were the case, the scaling would be out of wack entirely, even without scaling Demi-fiend to enemies such as Archangels or Powers. Virtues, Dominions, Thrones, etc. would also be 2-A simply by being stronger than Power, which would be stretching things a bit much.
Click to expand...
Shesha was a Low 2-C in the past. Now, he is 2-A
 
Not sure what to do with the Angels right now, I think the updating of their page can be better discussed before being applied lest we throw around massive upgrades that make the Scalling go to hell.
 
Also, if the divine powers from SMT IV have a profile; they should 2-A scaling from Shesha.

Also, Zhong Kui and Maitreya are examples.

Gods or Boss like Prometheus would scale since you have battled them after Shesha.
 
Shesha being 2-A kind of messes up the scaling of the games prior to SMTIV since there he was treated more like a mid-tier demon.
 
About the demons' level, to better determine their tier/position within the scale, you should more so look how consistently they are portrayed as strong/weak in their race or overall.
 
Ananta is consistently portrayed as the strongest Dragon/Snake race demon. The only exception is Majin Tensei I, where he is the weakest (so, pretty huge outlier).
 
Forneus and Ishtar aren't part of the same demon race, anyway. That said, Redux Forneus went up against the protagonist without getting stomped, after the latter had already beaten Morax (which is mandatory to get to the point where the Womb of Grief is even available).

Edit: Maybe we should have separate keys for Forneus if we ever get to him?
 
Jaakuace44 said:
Forneus and Ishtar aren't part of the same demon race, anyway. That said, Redux Forneus went up against the protagonist without getting stomped, after the latter had already beaten Morax (which is mandatory to get to the point where the Womb of Grief is even available).
Edit: Maybe we should have separate keys for Forneus if we ever get to him?
Click to expand...
If something is canon then there is no point of keys for appearance unless the characters got canonically stronger or weaker.

I think it would better to judge the characters standing by lores, story-wise feats scaling from a character key that they canonically battle
 
Forneus only has two story-wise feats, from what I can gather:

- The first being his fight with Demi-fiend (wherein he should be roughly tier 8, being able to go up against Pixie and other 8-C demons)

- The other is his fight with the Strange Journey protag, where he would have to have fought him after Morax (who is Low 2-C) went down.
 
Speaking of Pixie, High Pixie's tier needs to be moved down to At least 8-A, at most 6-C due to scaling to Aeros in the same way Demi-fiend does. The Low 7-C rating is from back when Aeros was considered Low 7-C.
 
Jaakuace44 said:
Speaking of Pixie, High Pixie's tier needs to be moved down to At least 8-A, at most 6-C due to scaling to Aeros in the same way Demi-fiend does. The Low 7-C rating is from back when Aeros was considered Low 7-C.
Click to expand...
I doubt her second key for High Pixie is from the same game since Demi-fiend doesn't even have at Tier 6 rating
 
"At least Small Town level (Scaling from Aeros, who she should be far superior from)" - High Pixie's key


"Multi-City Block level+ (Superior to the weak demon Aeros, the embodiment/controller of the world's wind, who should at least be capable of creating tornadoes)" - Beginning of Game Demi-fiend's key.
 
Aeros doesn't even have profile. Why does Aeros get put in put in the At least Small Town level when his feat is mentioned at: Multi-City Block level+; does he have two keys?
 
Aeros doesn't have two keys.

Being superior to him used to be a Low 7-C feat. Now, that's been downgraded to At least 8-A.

The idea is that Aeros is the embodiment of the world's wind, and should be capable of creating Tornadoes (which themselves have an AP of 8-A).
 
Jaakuace44 said:
Aeros doesn't have two keys.
Being superior to him used to be a Low 7-C feat. Now, that's been downgraded to At least 8-A.

The idea is that Aeros is the embodiment of the world's wind, and should be capable of creating Tornadoes (which themselves have an AP of 8-A).
Click to expand...
Being superior to him doesn't warrant at least Low 7-C rating; it is not enough.
 
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