SMT Revisions 2.0

[Elizhaa]

Quetzalcoatl (Shin Megami Tensei) should also be 2-A; he is cannon boss of the divine powers.

 

[Jaakuace44]

Yes, that's why I suggested High Pixie be brought down to at least 8-A.

 

[Jaakuace44]

Quetzalcoatl isn't portrayed as being a major member of the faction. Unless there's anything else to qualify for 2-A, I wouldn't suggest it.

 

[Elizhaa]

Quetzalcoatl isn't portrayed as being a major member of the faction. Unless there's anything else to qualify for 2-A, I wouldn't suggest it.

That was after the Party fought Shesha was is 2-A. Nanashi is 2-A at this point. Why would he not scale when is a cannon boss? Shesha at his weakest is 2-A. He should scale to this rating.

 

[Jaakuace44]

Hmm.

Might have to get UR's opinion on this.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Shesha is portrayed as representing most of the foothold possessed by the Divine Powers, and the threat they posed was significantly lessened (in Lucifer and Merkabah's eyes) after it was killed for the first time.

I don't see why scale him to Quetzacoatl, who is a comparatively minor member of the faction.

 

[Jaakuace44]

If that's the case, Krishna should probably be scaled back down to 2-A on his first key. Unless the justification is that he's able to control Shesha to some degree (though that would be stretching a bit).

 

[Elizhaa]

If that's the case, Krishna should probably be scaled back down to 2-A on his first key. Unless the justification is that he's able to control Shesha to some degree (though that would be stretching a bit).

Krishna is so powerful that his unsealing made truce occur between Lucifer and Merkabah occurs who where both At least 2-A, possibly High 2-A against his factions. He should keep his rating. He can't make an event like this happened if it is not that powerful. He would have been a nonfactor at his old rating.

 

[Jaakuace44]

Not his unsealing. Luci and Merk only form the truce after he's broken part of the firmament - a feat which required Shesha's awakening.

https://youtu.be/fXYd5kpqxFg?t=389

Keep in mind that Krishna alone isn't the threat; it's the Divine Powers as a whole, including Shesha.

 

[Elizhaa]

Shesha is portrayed as representing most of the foothold possessed by the Divine Powers, and the threat they posed was significantly lessened (in Lucifer and Merkabah's eyes) after it was killed for the first time.

I don't see why scale him to Quetzacoatl, who is a comparatively minor member of the faction.

Storywise, he cannonically fought Nanashi (Shin Megami Tensei) who is 2-A who is after fighting Shesah. He is a required boss like most if all in the Divine Powers. Even then, he would scale to 2-A Nanasshi as he can harm him.

 

[Elizhaa]

Not his unsealing. Luci and Merk only form the truce after he's broken part of the firmament - a feat which required Shesha's awakening.
https://youtu.be/fXYd5kpqxFg?t=389

Keep in mind that Krishna alone isn't the threat; it's the Divine Powers as a whole, including Shesha.

Shesha at full power is At least 2-A, possibly High 2-A too. It wasn't just Shesha as it was always there.

The divine Powers becames powerful to become a faction after Krishna (Shin Megami Tensei) unsealing. Also, his tiering profile justifaction is Krishna is (so powerful that his entrance that Merkabah and Lucifer had to form a temporary alliance to deal with him)

 

[Jaakuace44]

Gonna want UR's opinion on this one.

 

[Elizhaa]

Being powerful enough to cause characters who At least 2-A, possibly High 2-Ato form a truce for you, as listed on the profile, is enough justifications for the rating.

 

[Elizhaa]

The four deva should profiles. They have a Tier 2-A feast. Their additions would the scaling easier for superior gods.

From this old CRT:https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1863396 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0JNo0aUZTLw#fauxfullscree (Look at the 3:35 mark)

In this mission from our good old friend Stephen back in SMT IV, Stephen explains the nature of the expanse/Diamond Realm/Demon World. Basically, it transcends the past, present, and future, and through it one can easily be sent throughout time and space.

Now, why is this important? Basically, there are 4 demons of note, namely, the 4 devas, who in at least one reality hold back the demon real from fusing with reality.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=27Y5FGwn83M&list=PLOdDlDt7wGxepOCHDFBP3t--spd0uy7pT&index=55# (41:07 mark)

Ultima stated the feat would be 2-A

Pretty sure that the Devas holding off the Expanse from merging with the physical Multiverse isn't a High 2-A feat. It just exists beyond the linear flow of time of the the Multiverse

The Devas' feat is 2-A

Also,

Everyone 2-A would scale to the Devas. Considering they are like... The weakest 2-As in SMT by now

I think this is scale about superior gods and beings.

Shin Megami Tensei IV Apocalypse

The Heavenly Kings are members of the Divine Powers, guarding the Tokugawa Mandala for Maitreya. Maitreya would be 2-A since he is superior to them.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1863396 https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Four_Heavenly_Kings

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Again, I don't think Boss Order is always relevant when it comes to scalling SMT, otherwise you'd scale Baal to Lucifer and Merkabah for fighting against Nanashi and his party after both of them were defeated.

Krishna should still scale to Shesha's Third Resurrection, who managed to do harm to Lucifer and make him growl in pain.

 

[Elizhaa]

Again, I don't think Boss Order is always relevant when it comes to scalling SMT, otherwise you'd scale Baal to Lucifer and Merkabah for fighting against Nanashi and his party after both of them were defeated.
Krishna should still scale to Shesha's Third Resurrection, who managed to do harm to Lucifer and make him growl in pain.

I don't think noncannon or optional bosses order like Alice (Shin Megami Tensei)'s should always scale, but if it is canon or is a must in the story, I think it should scale or otherwise we get wonky tiering ratings, Ultima Reality.

For example, Quetzalcoatl (Shin Megami Tensei), whether strong or weak, can't be skip for the story progress where Nanashi is 2-A. So for this reason, he would be 2-A from scaling.

Foods for thoughts. Loki is also optional Boss ONLY after after fighting Shesha in SMT IV in Pursue Hunter Hunters quest. So, along fighing Nanashi at 2-A and the Protagonist (Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor) who fought him after the four devas, he has are two 2-A feats.

 

[Jaakuace44]

What about bosses such as Metatron? He's also non-optional, and is able to fight against Nanashi to some degree even after the latter managed to take down Lucifer and Merkabah.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I was actually wondering if Metatron should have an 1-C key, given that he was summoned by YHVH specifically to deal with Nanashi and co in that layer of His Universe.

 

[Elizhaa]

What about bosses such as Metatron? He's also non-optional, and is able to fight against Nanashi to some degree even after the latter managed to take down Lucifer and Merkabah.

I think all non-optional bosses scaled.

Optional bosses depending on when their fights, storywise, are possible like Alice should be scaled a case by case basis.

 

[Elizhaa]

The Four devas defintevly needs profiles. Their profile with 2-A feats would make the gods scaling much much easier to known.

 

[Jaakuace44]

That just raises more questions. Lucifer and Merkabah show up in YHVH's Universe as well and are still able to battle Nanashi to some degree, even after he not only defeated them both once, but Vishnu-flynn as well.

 

[Elizhaa]

I was actually wondering if Metatron should have an 1-C key, given that he was summoned by YHVH specifically to deal with Nanashi and co in that layer of His Universe.

I think he should have that key. He can still be empowered by YHVH since he is avatar of it at the time of fight. It does depend where the fight happen though; I believe there are four higher dimensional plane or 4 Brane-Layers and his Throne's Layer( each being their own dimension, and described as being "More infinite and more vague" than everything before them) before you fight YHVH

 

[Elizhaa]

That just raises more questions. Lucifer and Merkabah show up in YHVH's Universe as well and are still able to battle Nanashi to some degree, even after he not only defeated them both once, but Vishnu-flynn as well.

Which dimensional plane did they fight Nanashi though? This is where the scaling depends.

 

[Jaakuace44]

I believe it's Lucifer on the first brane, Merkabah on the second.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The copies of Lucifer and Merkabah that were created by YHVH are explicitly said to be literally just recordings of their previous appearances, and they pose no challenge whatsoever and are quickly defeated, so I don't think comparing them to Metatron is valid at all.

 

[Elizhaa]

I believe it's Lucifer on the first brane, Merkabah on the second.

Lucifer and Merkabah scaled to the dimensional planed; Otherwise, they would stomp each other.

The copies of Lucifer and Merkabah that were created by YHVH are explicitly said to be literally just recordings of their previous appearances, and they pose no challenge whatsoever and are quickly defeated, so I don't think comparing them to Metatron is valid at all.

Just recording? That's is that.

 

[Elizhaa]

On the topics of non-optional bosses in SMT.

At least, with the divine powers, they scaled to 2-A Shesha, a 2-A Nanashi as their boss orders is non-optional and only happened after Nanashi fought Shesha, and there are also the Four Devas with 2-A feat in the Divine Powers in SMT IV Apocalypse. I think the 2-A rating is valid on these points.

 

[Elizhaa]

I think the points on the Divine powers 2-A rating were accepted. If there no more objections, I can start making and making with the profiles.

 

[Jaakuace44]

Something that's been bugging me about Lucifer's profile:

"possibly High Multiverse level+ (Before falling from grace, Lucifer was considered one of God's greatest aspects alongside Satan, and was capable of assisting Aleph in battling YHVH in Shin Megami Tensei II. However, as he was easily decimated by YHVH in Megami Tensei II and is unconfident that he could defeat Sata, the consistency in the scaling is questionable)"

The main hang-up here is the fact that YHVH curbstomped him in MTII... yet, that in itself isn't indicative of YHVH strictly having higher dimensionality. Not only that, but he's still able to do damage to YHVH in both MTII and SMTII - to a limited degree, yes, but the damage is noticeable enough.

Furthermore, while Lucifer was unconfident that he would be able to defeat Satan, he's also able to assist Aleph in the fight against him should the latter go down the Chaos route. Sure, he's not strictly needed, as Aleph is able to fight Satan with just Hiroko and a few other demons... but then, are any of Nanashi's friends in Apocalypse strictly necessary in his fight against Satan?

It'd be like how, say, Hallelujah is able to assist Nanashi against the likes of Satan and YHVH, yet would clearly be stomped by either of them on his own. He would maybe be able to put up a fight against some of the angels in YHVH's Universe, but he would ultimately lose.

Wouldn't it be more likely that YHVH and Satan simply have a much greater degree of 5-D power than Lucifer, rather than the latter simply having immense 4-D power and the former two being 5-D entities?

 

[Wokistan]

That's why he has a possibly, instead of straight up 5D like Satan and YHVH.

 

[Elizhaa]

That's why he has a possibly, instead of straight up 5D like Satan and Lucifer.

I agree with this point

 

[Jaakuace44]

I'll assume that by the Powers, you mean the Powers of the Divine race.

If that seriously goes through, we're gonna have [record scratch] knows how many extra layers of 2-A. Would also make it so the Four Devas aren't the weakest 2-A's in SMT anymore.

 

[Jaakuace44]

Noticed you made a page for Maitreya. Are you planning on making an extra key for his Mitra-Buddha form?

 

[Elizhaa]

Noticed you made a page for Maitreya. Are you planning on making an extra key for his Mitra-Buddha form?

Yes, just notice it since it didn't get to this part of the game yet. Thanks!

 

[Jaakuace44]

Have we decided what to do about scaling in regards to Baal and Odin?

 

[Elizhaa]

Have we decided what to do about scaling in regards to Baal and Odin?

Odin scaled to the divine powers at least. I will increase the justifcation since I found his to be lacking. Baal's justification looks enough as he is:

Multiverse level+ (Far stronger than Beelzebub and Bael, being only able to be fully Resurrected by the fusion between the two Demons, as they are Demonized aspects of himself who were split from him upon the bastardization of his image as a deity. Immensely above Asura in his True Form as Ahura Mazda, as Baal's Avatar was comparable in might to the likes of Ahriman and superior to Noah and the Three Cardinal Archangels)

 

[Elizhaa]

I have no problem with Thor being 2-A; even Loki have 2-A feats.

 

[Elizhaa]

With the At least 2-C rating on Divine angle profile; I believe these were there the Archangel where 2-B which are now 2-A. Scaling wise, they would 2-A now.

 

[Jaakuace44]

Mitra-Buddha and Odin are shown to be able to fight Nanashi to a certain degree, even after he defeated Lucifer and Merkabah. Would it be fair to say they are At least 2-A, possibly High 2-A? Or would that be stretching it?

 

[Elizhaa]

Mitra-Buddha and Odin are shown to be able to fight Nanashi to a certain degree, even after he defeated Lucifer and Merkabah. Would it be fair to say they are At least 2-A, possibly High 2-A? Or would that be stretching it?

Yeah, thanks, that would fair as they are solid feats as they are non-optional bosses. I didn't go that far yet. I will change the justifications.