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SMT Revisions 2.0

Odin should also get two keys. One for his regular incarnations, and one for his Apocalypse incarnations (because ain't no way regular Odin could go up against Nanashi; hell, regular Odin can't even solo Kagutsuchi, I'm pretty sure)
 
Odin in Apocalypse is shown to be capable of damaging post-Lucifer/Merkabah fight Nanashi to a degree (2-A, possibly High 2-A feat), while Odin in other games can't even fight the likes of Kagutsuchi (At least 2-A feat).
 
Jaakuace44 said:
Odin in Apocalypse is shown to be capable of damaging post-Lucifer/Merkabah fight Nanashi to a degree (2-A, possibly High 2-A feat), while Odin in other games can't even fight the likes of Kagutsuchi (At least 2-A feat).
Click to expand...
The other incarnations don't have much of feat and go by scaling. Feats trumps scaling here. Odin borderline featless in other games. We just knew that he is stronger than Thor and Lolore-wiseise.

Odin's tiering justification looks weak to me: Multiverse level+ (Capable of electrifying Flyn into unconsciousness, although Flynn had lowered down his weapons and guard, willingly allowing himself to be captured)
 
I don't think Odin being on Lucifer and Merkabah's level is legit, he is not portrayed as having gotten stronger since he last met Nanashi, and Dagda is still depicted as his equal when they meet in the Cosmic Egg, so I'd just write that off as an inconsistency.
 
Ultima Reality said:
I don't think Odin being on Lucifer and Merkabah's level is legit, he is not portrayed as having gotten stronger since he last met Nanashi, and Dagda is still depicted as his equal when they meet in the Cosmic Egg, so I'd just write that off as an inconsistency.
Click to expand...
Odin did stomps Nanashi and the group in their first boss fight which happens after Nanashi fought Shesha's first form which is 2-A. It is described that none of their attacked were effective against him.

https://youtu.be/oH1R_25CvUY?t=673

I think he still scaled, Ultima Reality
 
That just makes him a much higher degree of 2-A, I'm pretty sure. Unless you're just giving a better justification for his 2-A tiering.
 
They couldn't harm Shesha's First Form either, Nanashi needed Ame-no-Habakiri to do that, so Odin scalling from it is definitely a no-no

He should still scale to Maitreya, though, who is above the Four Devas.
 
The damage they did prior to Nanashi getting Ame-no-Habakiri is ridiculously minor, and Shesha was actually laughing (?) at them instead of showing any signs of receiving actual harm, so I still don't think Odin scales from him at all. Then there is the fact that Shesha was a major part of the Divine Powers and represented most of the foothold they had, it wouldn't make sense for Odin to be stronger than the thing.
 
Also, would it be fair to say Surt and Mada are 2-A for being able to fight a Mid-game Demi-fiend (the latter having already beaten three of the Cardinal Archangels at once)?
 
Jaakuace44 said:
Also, would it be fair to say Surt and Mada are 2-A for being able to fight a Mid-game Demi-fiend (the latter having already beaten three of the Cardinal Archangels at once)?
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Anform of damage to Tier 2-A would give a Tier 2-A feat

If it is non-optional boss then yes.

Otherwise, it would the same case as with Alice (Shin Megami Tensei), which is a case by cases basis. Personally, I would think they would be 2-A if they are the same cases as Alice's.
 
Stillwinston said:
I was wanting to ask, is SMT Dante warranted anything new? His profile looks kinda out of date tbh
Click to expand...
Can he learned all the skills like Demi-fiend or can regenerate if not this is his profile?
 
Personally, Matt, I think all non-optional bosses in the story would scale to protagonists and I think that is how we do scaling for all other games.

If the bosses are the optional case, then we have a case by case basis like Alice's.
 
Assuming they're able to put up a decent enough fight against Demi-fiend, they should at least be comparable to the likes of Uriel. If they were merely 2-C or some such, Demi-fiend would only need to give them a mean look for it to be a stomp, and I honestly can't see that being the case.
 
Like I and Matt said, Boss Order isn't always the best way to scale SMT. Scalling a minor Demon God like Quetzacoatl to Shesha and Nanashi would be like scalling Forneus to Ishtar because he comes after her as a Boss in Strange Journey Redux, or saying Asura is stronger than the Trimurti.
 
Can he learned all the skills like Demi-fiend or can regenerate if not this is his profile?

It's just in his match with Archie Megaman someone said he was gonna get Concept Manipulation though that was awhile back. >_>
 
Somethimes boss order is not always the best way, if not beings like Medusa and Minotaur would be UNiverse level or more because Aniel Boss Fight :b
 
Ultima Reality said:
Like I and Matt said, Boss Order isn't always the best way to scale SMT. Scalling a minor Demon God like Quetzacoatl to Shesha and Nanashi would be like scalling Forneus to Ishtar because he comes after her as a Boss in Strange Journey Redux, or saying Asura is stronger than the Trimurti.
Click to expand...
It depends on what you mean by Boss Orders. Non-optional bosses are different than level Optional Boss enemies. Besides, most of the weakest where power scaled and I believe scaling trump feat. I do know of PIS but at some point when characters got more 2-A feats than lower feats as in most case it from power scaling. It begs the questions.

Also, her profile is outdated. And, she has an Ishtar (Shin Megami Tensei) have 2-A feat:(When cursed by YHVH himself, Ishtar had her being fused with that of Ashtar, turning her into the demon Astaroth, one of Lucifer's most powerful allies, she changed the plot and timeline of the game Catherine while joking around. Could barely endure a fight with Metatro)
 
Aniel in Apoc went down mainly because of Flynn and Isabeau jumping in to help Nanashi. Without them, Aniel would have stomped Nanashi into oblivion. He's explicitly portrayed as being far above Medusa and Minotaur.

Meanwhile, with bosses such as Mada and Surt, it's unclear if they're meant to be stronger or weaker in-lore. Mada's only defined story feat is in Nocturne as a boss; Surt in SMT I is one of the final bosses you face in the Cathedral, making him at least comparable to the likes of Uriel; Samael, likewise, has no story feats outside of Nocturne.
 
Extreme123dz said:
Somethimes boss order is not always the best way, if not beings like Medusa and Minotaur would be UNiverse level or more because Aniel Boss Fight :b
Click to expand...
Aniel as an Archangels would be 2-A scaling from the others 7 sans Lucifer and he fights a 2-A Flynn SMT IV Apocalypse.

Medusa, in SMT IV Apocalypse boss fight, I am uncertain and I am uncertainty about the minotaur profile
 
I'm not quite certain what tier Aniel would be, as Flynn and Isabeau disposed of him quickly in Apocalypse. We also don't see Aniel doing damage to him there.
 
Jaakuace44 said:
I'm not quite certain what tier Aniel would be, as Flynn and Isabeau disposed of him quickly in Apocalypse.
Click to expand...
Flynn was 2-A at the time since SMT IV Apocalypse is a sequel to the neutral ending of SMT IV where Flynn ended up Tier 2-A
 
It might be better to look at Aniel's appearance in SMTIV, where he acts as one of the final sub-bosses, alongside Seraph (who is 2-A).
 
Jaakuace44 said:
It might be better to look at Aniel's appearance in SMTIV, where he acts as one of the final sub-bosses, alongside Seraph (who is 2-A).
Click to expand...
Right, The 7 Archangels are superior to the Seraphs who are 2-A; it should be enough for 2-A.
 
Jaakuace44 said:
Wait, where is it stated the 7 Archangels are superior to Seraphs?
Click to expand...
Lore-wise and biblical lorewise; they are superior. They are the most powerful of Gods servant. Seraphs are second.

This is not about the "Divine Archangels", otherwise. to prevent confusion.
 
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