Smite Revisions?

[ArkhamDC06]

Sigurd says "He grew big enough to step on the planet but nothing else is quantifiable in terms of heavens and underworld".

Aside from that, what would the final tiers to you ?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Hell if I know.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Matthew The tree isn't a person which is what I'm talking about here. Kali has no universal statement in lore. Are you referring to "to speak of Kali is to speak of the beginning of time"? Don't see where Universal Neith is as well unless I'm missing something.

As for Vamana he doesn't have god reveal that would illustrate his size to us. My statement is based off of one of additional lore videos on SMITE YouTube channel "Who is Vamana?"

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He does have an old God Reveal, my dude.

And considering that Yggdrasil and the Nine Realms were formed from Ymir's corpse by Odin, yeah it scales.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

No, Ymir's corpse only made the planet in lore.

This is in his entry

" In Midgard, in the North, it is believed that Ymir's skull is the sky, his flesh the earth, and his blood the sea. Though, these claims could merely be the boasting of proud Odin and his brothers, who take credit for slaying the first jotunn and fashioning the earth from his body parts."

This is in Odin

" The All-Father can trace his lineage to the evil Frost Giant, Ymir, whom he slew with the aid of his two brothers, Vili and Ve, and with his remains forged the world"

I looked on YouTube and there is no Vamana lore video on the SMITE channel. As least from what I can see.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah Ymir made Earth but it also made 7 of the other realms. And Yggdrasil didn't exist before Ymir died either.

Also "the world" is ambiguous. And the entry from Ymir doesn't limit it to just the earth.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Where does it say he made 7 other realms or any of that you stated? Hell it literally says this in Ymir's entry.

" At the beginning of time, the Realm of Fire, Muspell, and the Realm of Ice, Niflheim met at the place called Ginnungagap; the void of space. Steam rose and froze again, and from that primordial mixture, Ymir, King of the Frost Giants took shape."

So no he didn't make the world tree nor the other realms. Unless you can provide a statement within any of SMITE's mediums of course.

It only says world in Odin's entry, Ymir's entry clarifies. His body made the sky, earth, people, and sea which is the world.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

Thank you for helping out.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Don't think his help won't be needed after that, we still have work to do. So basically, is Yggdrasil galactic or Universal ?

 

[God_Aldamore]

Here is how I suggest we get the tiering system done for SMITE. Yay or Nay this if you find a response acceptable.

I suggest we make the pages and scale them to their lore pages, a closer look pages if available for characters, the comics which are a prequel to the game, and we use the quotes and interactions. Pretty much all sources available to us to use. This also includes official press information from the game developers social media accounts. I also believe that using at least the Cosmic skins quotes availabe should help us to scale appropiately/as close as possible, as many of the characters that do have cosmic skins state that they have never experienced so much power, with the cosmic skin power that they've obtained they are either are the center of the universe or are the universe, they have infinite power, and they are able to command both time and space as well as being cosmically aware of events within the universe. Also when releasing at least Olorun (I haven't found any information yet on the other cosmic skins) they used a quote that he uses in game so I do think that the cosmic skins do have merit to the characters and their voicelines can be used as is.

We should also try to use a key guide. From what I've been researching and reading, the gods are all giants in their true forms at least 20 feet in height (link shows Xbalanque, Ra, Zeus, and Odin). The comic did also say that the gods come from a higher plane of existence compared to the mortal plane.

I also suggest looking at the timeline for the SMITE verse to verify ratings as I have been discovering that Ares is pretty high on the tier list just from his feats in the timeline with him beating Ra sensless (a being close to his father Zeus) and killing Chaac, God of Rain with his own weather/rain manipulating axe. And to the person who's been asking about Ragnarok Hades is canon to the lore/timeline so if you wanted to make a key for him on his page you could given that it gets approved.... We also find out pretty early in the timeline that Zeus ist even dead just in the Underworld and thats one of the reasons Olorun even showed up in the first place to rescue him and the other gods there (but still take his seat upon that throne).

Starting with the highest tiers and ending with the lowest tiers and the justification as to why I think they should be placed at such a tier:

1. Multiversal not Low Multiversal (as on the tiering system page that means Universal+ and we know that SMITE has infinite timelines and numerous universes) Tier 2-C to 2-B for Olorun, Ruler of the Heavens. The New King of the Gods and an all-encompassing symbol of divinity and creation according to his a closer look page, is a God of Gods, and King of the Gods. According to his a closer look page we know the following: 1. He doesn't have the weakness of needing followers to maintain his powers like the other gods. 2. He is the creator of the universe and has another manifistation that is the creator of the universe. There is no differentiation between Olorun being the creator of the universe and him being at full power to create the universe. He and his tripartite aspect Olodumare both create universe(s) but he is the ruling aspect. 3. Upon his arrival in the timeline lore he radiated so much power Hera felt that even Zeus would be humbled by it. " Long have I been content to simply bear witness." His voice was like the soft growl of distant thunder. He radiated a power greater than any she had ever felt. Even Zeus would have found himself humbled before such a being as this). 4. He as time and space manipulative powers as he exclaims when using his ultimate that both time and space are within his domain. He also can read the essences/minds of the gods according to a statement he made to Baron Samedi while he and Baron were talking to each other in the Underworld ( "I do not have to imagine. I can read their hearts as easily you might read a mortal's soul." ). For his Infinite Ruler Skin I would peg that at Tier 2-B to 2-A since due to the quote from him "I see all in every universe and even I can not stop myself!" (Olorun) with this quote being directed to himself and from his promotional material stating his reign is over all so this should include everything/everyone within the SMITE lore.

2. I say for all are primordial characters like Chronos, Chernobog, Terra, Nox, Ymir and the others we put them at 3-A for a low end to Low 2-C or 2-C for a high end based upon "However, the Official SMITE Magazine in one of its storylines confirms the existence of countless timelines, with the character of Chronos being narrated as being the same in all of the numerous timelines having shaped creation before said numerous universes even existed, making SMITE a verse that comfortably sits in the Multiverse Tier" which is on the SMITE page for this wiki. It has been stated in this thread that Chronos isn't even participating in the war between the gods and in the lore for Chernobog we know he actively kills his worshippers indicating that at least these two do not need the worship that the God-kings and their pantheon so desperately require. Also according to the lore for many of the greek and roman characters (especially Discordia) their pantheons are essentially one and the same so with Terra's lore that her children the Titans were born with more supreme power than her and her husband Ouranos, and then the Gods defeating the Titans we should assume that the Gods should be ranked higher than the 4-A that they currently reside at. Now is this not to say that all of the primoridals are necessarily equal to Chronos. This is just a suggestion. And as we see with Ymir in the SMITE verse he has made a return to the living and seeks revenge against Odin and his kin primordials can't truly be killed (even stated in his lore).

3. As for the God-Kings I suggest making them all 4-C or 4-B as a low end to either 3-B or Low 3-A possible high end.. They all scale to each other as being roughly equal in power and ability. Zeus makes constellations, Odin fashioned the Earth, Sky, Seas, Amaterasu and Ra are both gods/goddesses of the Sun. I put them in the possible high range of 3-B to 3-A because of the lore for Terra stating that her children the Titans were stronger than the primordials but were defeated by the gods. Even though the gods had to gang up on the Titans, Jupiter/Zeus had kill Cronus by himself to release his swallowed brethren and then they waged the titanomancy. Even Khepri is stated to be strong enough to move the sun within his lore.

4. For the Pantheon tops like brothers and sisters and sons and daughters I'd suggest 4-C to 3-A depending on the feats. Ares in the Comics beat up Ra an rough equilivant to his father Zeus and killed Chaac with his own weapo. Loki with Zeus Thunderbolt fought against Neith, Athena, and Hermes all together and managed to kill Hermes, faught and easily be Hel, and fought against Thor and his army.

5. For everyone else I can only sugges somewhere between 4-B to 3-A depending upon their lore and skins, especially the cosmic skins. Many of these gods can contend with and even beat the pantheon tops and god-kings without any powerups and amps. Ao Kuang, Loki, and Hel managed to tag-team and kill Zeus and these are not pantheon heads. And the characters that do gain cosmic skins (Agni, Hercules, Anubis, Sol, Chernobog, Nox, Khepri, Medusa, Ah Puch, Sun Wukong, and others) have quoted that they have access to unlimited power or infinite power and that they've never experienced so much power. Others state that they are either the center of the universe or are the very universe. Agni and Anubis both state they have universal power and that they can rule the universe.

Again this is only a suggestion so take it with a grain of salt. Make better suggestions or compremises that help move the discussion along.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Guess we'll have to wait if this is good for other people. I'm ok with this though this is a little confusing.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Okay before responding to the wall I wanna say... I don't know why we're randomly saying Kali and Neith and somesuch are Low 2-C. I don't know of any lore that supports that. Moving on.

I do agree Yggdrasil wouldn't inherently scale to anybody, though if it was proven to scale it would be 3-C. Ymir's lore doesn't seem to support that rating.

Now then for the wall... nay. We've spoken about how the comics are wildly inconsistent. Comics can be used where it isn't a blatant contradiction (for example, King Arthur being the most capable of fighting Jormungandr, despite just being a normal dude and Jormungandr being equal to some of the more powerful gods).

The wall of text also seems to just have random nonsensical ratings, no offense. I've established why a fairly normal god should scale to High 4-C with feats that are undeniably mentioned in-game lore and one of them which you can do (Hou Yi's ult is literally him shooting down nine stars). You even mention tiers that straight up don't exist (Low 3-A). So for now I have to outright reject all the ideas shown in that wall.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Bambu

Neith is the Egyptian Creator Goddess in SMITE, mother of all the gods, and weaver of the fabric of fate and reality.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm aware of the lore, but none of that is equivalent to making a universe. Her lore pretty explicitly states that she didn't do it, in fact, saying she was born from the waters which was the first thing in the universe.

If we aren't giving creator gods/head gods Low 2-C, which for now I can agree to, then I don't see that working for Neith.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Said waters are Nu, the Primordial Chaos from which existence sprang forth in Egyptian Mythology. The universe came after the fact. Saying that the universe as we understand wasn't created by her is getting lost in semantics.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Creation literally is outright stated to have existed before her, what we call the universe at that point is indeed just semantics.

So I wholeheartedly disagree with random Low 2-C scaling for Neith based on that premise.

 

[The_Impress]

Is Kali being stated to be low 2-C for being comparable to Durga or because of being a time god or a Destroyer? Because all of them are pretty assumptious of her own abilities, as nothing amongst both imply anything about her own feats IMO. (Side note I found SMITE is super loose in terms of how it potrays Hindu Mythology)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Kali I'm less adverse to but this brings into question if we scale every other top dog god to Low 2-C, assuming we take "Goddess of Time" as Low 2-C to begin with.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I agree with Bambu, I don't know where Matt is pulling this info from.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

It's likely from the fact that Neith is stated be the Creator Goddess of the Egyptian pantheon in SMITE and she was apparently the first being that came from the waters of Chaos. Not saying that Matt is right, just saying this is why he thinks she should be considered as Low 2-C i guess.

For Kali, isn't she a special case for the god head ? I have no problem with her being Low 2-C in regards for her lore but while i would see Zeus and comparable other gods as Universal, i don't know if they can be considered as Low 2-C.

And what do you think about Olorun being 2-B and Chronos, Chernobog and the other primordials being Tier 2 ?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I realize why he's saying it, it just isn't a Tier 2 feat.

Why are you randomly saying they should be Tier 2-B when they literally have a Low 2-C feat and that's it. Please try to understand, we have nixxed scaling god-leader-people to Low 2-C. For now, at least.

No. No no no. Chernobog has no reason to be considered at all, Chronos and Olorun can be Low 2-C.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Khepri apperently moves the sun every morning lol, meh this lore. We have like 10 gods that do the same thing.

"At dawn, the sun lifts above the horizon, bathing mankind in color and life. At dusk, it sinks beneath the edge the world, lost to sight, casting all into darkness. While the sun shines on the realm of mortal kind it is radiant Ra that guides it, but at night we share the sun with the underworld. It is not Ra that moves the sun along its subterranean path but Khepri, the scarab God, he who comes with the dawn."

I think what we should do is go through each pantheon looking at indiviudal lore statements.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah Khepri's lore helps back Tier 4 stuff for a normal god. I'm aware of his lore since he in particular is the best guardian don't @ me (duo lane Khepri with his massive CC potential mixed with me maining Artemis, with that sicy extra damage while enemies are CC'd, is such a nasty team).

Pantheons in general should be able to scale to each other though, like it is acknowledged that the gods are at war and it wouldn't make sense to have one be like 3-B while another is 5-B and somehow still both have a viable stake in the war.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Calm down, i was speaking about the proposal of Olorun alone being 2-B due to the Multiverse thing said above. I was just asking about something so no need to be angry or something. And isn't Chronos stated to be 2-C by now ?

So Low 2-C will be the maximum tier in the game ?

Chernobog is a primordial being so while he won't be as powerful as they are (Olorun and Chronos being the most powerful characters for now at least), he can scale to other primordials like Nyx and comparable beings.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I am calm, just hoping you'll listen. The multiverse thing isn't really expanded on, we know that a higher plane exists but frankly we don't get any confirmation on what this means. We can't use real life mythology to accurately tier the game so this higher plane is amorphous at best.

Without further context, for now, yes.

Why? OP states Primordials should scale to Neith who I've just established shouldn't scale to Low 2-C.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

"The multiverse thing isn't really expanded on, we know that a higher plane exists" Since it is made from several realms and confirmed to be some kind of multiverse, it could be 2-C AT BEST but for now, i agree that Low 2-C will be the maximum.

Never said he should scale to Low 2-C precisely, just that he should scale from whatever tier the other primordials will get in the end.

I have the feeling we'll never get to the end with this, this game's tier thing is such a mess..

 

[ArkhamDC06]

So it will be Tier 4 for regular gods ?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

But is that confirmed though? Vamana's lore I brought up earlier brings that into question. Earth is compared to the size of the Heavens, which could very easily be this "higher plane".

I mean. You did. Repeatedly after I said it didn't make sense.

It doesn't need to be. Low 2-C for a sparse few, High 4-C for most gods, 7-A for normal dudes.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Not really. It's just stated that we have a SMITE Multiverse and that it is made of realms and planes of existence but nothing is clearly established except that there are multiple underworlds (Greek, Mayan, Egyptian, etc) and each one is its own realm. But again, nothing is clear so as i said, 2-C would be a possibly but Low 2-C seems more accurate.

What i said is that if the other primordials (aside from Olorun and Chronos) were to be Tier 2, he should scale to them. Again, i'm not saying he is Tier 2, i'm just sying he is comparable to other primordials.

Then the main problem is the Low 2-C thing. Will some gods have Tier 3 (because again, i don't think Zeus, Odin, Ra and co are Low 2-C) ? Also, will we count the cosmic skin thing ?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Where does Tier 3 come from now? No to skins.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Hades ( the only underworld we know about) is just underground.

Asgard is on earth as well.

 

[God_Aldamore]

The wall is here @Mr. Bambu to correct some information regarding your statements:

1: Nothing in the comment said low 3-A. What it did say is 3-A as a low end. And this is considering that on the SMITE page for this wiki it states the verse comfortably sits at multiversal tier. So I believe having the supreme god of the verse at a status of mere universal + which according to this wiki's tiering system page is what Low 2-C when this very wiki says that it's timelines are Infinite and it's universes are numerous to be indignant to the character

You've been accusing others of failing to read your comments yet you fail to read/correctly comprehend mine.

2: I'm using numerous lores to not only make these suggestions including the official timeline which I linked. Also even if you feel that the materials released by the Official comic to be controversial and scattered then that's okay. When nearly all religions are equal then using what we can gather to make presumptive speculation is all we can do.

3: Again your statement of nonsensical tiering is a bit much. Had you taken the time to really read and analyze the presented information and links you had at least given some reasonable consideration to the tiering statistics that I used.

3.a Olorun the supreme god in the franchise is suggested at tier 2-C to 2-B due to his lore an the word of god which I linked and his Infinite Ruler skin at 2-B to 2-A due to again the linked word of god and the quote of him being able to look at every universe and a regular Olorun can't beat him.

3.b The Primordials are suggested to be placed as a possible low end at 3-A and as a possible high end at Low 2-C to 2-B. I based this off of Chronos and Ananke creating multiple universes on his page on this site. And for the other primordial beings I used Terra's lore and presumed them to be roughly equivalent. These are the only beings I decided to place at a high end of multiversal and I did link Terra's lore.

3.c For the God-Heads I made the suggestion of actually downgrading them from 4-A to placing them in the ranges of 4-C to 4-B as a possible low end and placing them as a possible max at 3-B to 3-A. If you actually read the comment you'd see my reasoning for such a placement.

3.d For the other gods I'd suggested 4-C to 3-A depending on their feats using Ares as a deciding factor for his feat of beating Ra. See the above comment for more information.

3.e Finally for everyone else I made the suggestion of placing them in the same 4-C to 3-A but also depending upon the feats.

So this is a compromise I made for everyone to consider even agreeing with your comments.

This is also @ everyone that didn't fully read and comprehend the comment. Reading at least the full comment if you don't want to read the linked material should help resolve the tiering issue even if just a little.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Mr Bambu Again, this was suggested above, i'm not creating things myself.

Sigurd We don't hear about Hades (the Underworld) alone, there is also the Nine Hells in Ah Puch's lore and the Egyptian afterlife (with Anubis and Osiris). Now maybe they're all the same thing under different names but all are mentionned at least ones. And yeah, Asgard is on Earth.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

As for the God-Kings I suggest making them all 4-C or 4-B as a low end to either 3-B or Low 3-A possible high end..
	~ God Aldamore​

So yeah, it absolutely mentioned Low 3-A and didn't make a distinction. Moving on though, since this is more of a nitpick than anything... you can't possibly believe that to work? You're saying your source for fixing SMITE on this wiki is the wiki's current SMITE pages. Seriously?

2. Alright, link the lore, because all you basically said was a bunch of tiers you believe they should be in. No actual mythology, we have to use strictly the statements SMITE releases.

3. We already went over why skins aren't valid, but cool. The mood here seems to be that nobody scales to Chronos, so no to the Primordial scaling (I'm neutral on this point to be clear, I'm merely updating you on the current talk since you seem to have skipped some of it). Aaaand this last bit makes even less sense. You keep saying "iF YOu aCTuAllY rEaD iT" but then you outright and obviously didn't read my posts about High 4-C for all gods. So why would we place the strongest gods at "4-C to 4-B" for no reason other than you want them to be there?

Random tiering doesn't sit well with me and a lot of your "lores" don't make sense the way you interpret them. As for the other realms, we've established that of the places we know the location of, they are on Earth. Underworld is just beneath the Earth, Asgard is on Earth, etc. So why would we assume this is a multiverse? To put matters even more into perspective, why would we assume this is specifically a 2-B multiverse? I'd just like sources for your tiers if you insist on them being accurate.

 

[Antvasima]

Mr. Bambu seems to make sense to me. Thank you for helping out.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

I suggest to make another thread with what we know for the potential tiers maybe (like informations, distinctions between gods, examples, etc), this one is starting to be as messy as the game's lore itself. Just an idea.

 

[God_Aldamore]

My apologies on the low 3-A thing. I honestly didn't know I said that and had to go back and READ.

Something you and antvasima seem to lack the wiki to do @Mr. Bambu.

You asked me to link the lore and I've already linked the lores, the word of god, the social mediums, the official SMITEGame page, the Official timeline, the official lore. Again You Are Not Reading.

With the existence of the Hindu Pantheon we know this "The Hindus believe that this is not the '''''first universe. They believe in rebirth, meaning that there will be countless more universes.''''' These universes are created by Lord Brahma, known as the Creator, maintained by Lord Vishnu the Sustainer and destroyed by Lord Shiva. Lord Shiva is called the Destroyer and Re-creator, as with each destroyed universe another must be recreated. Once a universe is destroyed, nothing remains but an endless ocean. On a great swimming snake Ananta, is Lord Vishnu. Growing out of Lord Vishnu's navel is a lotus flower and out of this sprouts his servant, Lord Brahma, the creator of all things. Brahma divided his own body in two. Out of one, Brahma shaped man; out of the other, woman. The man was called Manu, and he was wise; the woman Shatarupa, and she was mysterious. Today, Hindus consistently worship their creator god Brahman, who is known as the supreme deity. There are countless gods in the Hindu pantheon, all known for their unique traits and mystic abilities." and this can be found on the OFFICIAL wiki page that SMITEGame endorses on their website. Now with this is SMITE is canonically multiversal and it's something I DON'T HAVE TO "INTERPRET" ANYTHING. BASIC READING SKILLS IS ALL ONE NEEDS. Especially when one is literally taking enormous amounts of time to read all of these lores and websites and find the word of god just for some random dude to say "link the lore" lazily when THEY'RE ALREADY LINKED!!!!!!!!!

You're the only one that has said anything about the skins being invalid. Not one time was it put to a vote and some of the skins are valid to the lore regardless of them having any type of lore behind them. Again if you took the time to click the ALREADY linked text you'd have seen the official lore and timeline in which some skins are shown through the timeline. And I never said use all of the skins just the ones that are cosmic based and that's only to try to find a high end to place these characters since guess what the word of god places Infinite Ruler Olorun over all (this was linked twice too) and many characters have cosmic variations.

Trust me when I say I've been read every comment in this thread. And no I could careless about where the others are ranked. My concern are for Yemoja and Olorun. Maybe Baron but especially those two. Since I've started my first comment I've been trying to finish this ongoing conversation so that antvasima will stop deleting the pages under the pretense of (inaccurate statistics). For the most part since it's officially stated (let someone else pull that up so you can ignore it) that the SMITE verse has multiple universes I think it's tragic to place the supreme deity at Low 2-C when on the freaking tiering system page that literally means universal+. We're dealing with a multiverse people not a universe with mere 12 universes. It's countless and innumerable. GET IT TOGETHER!!! Like dung falls to the ground I could care less as to the ranking of the other gods and Pantheons. I just need this done so that Yemoja and Olorun will have decent representation on this wiki.

Again if this site is going to have a statement on a page of theirs like "this verse comfortably sits at multiversal" and then goes and makes its

 

[ThePerpetual]

...where did 7-A come from?

The entire beginning of the thread was spent establishing that the in-canon scaling is a complete mess (as has been noted since), and that trying to arbitrarily separate Gods into different "tiers" or classifications is pointless when they're all consistently portrayed as within one another's general weight class (See: Cerberus greviously injures Olorun, who is beneath Hades, who is comparable to Zeus, who only went even with/got killed by Loki and Ao Kuang, who didn't one-shot Hel, who in turn fought Sun Wukong more or less evenly, etc.)

If you need even more examples than that: Hera fought more or less on even ground, as far as it can be told, with Baron Samedi and Olorun against Cerberus + skeletons. Hera, as a part of the on-going odyssey with Jormungandr, had King Arthur and Merlin as the chief "Gods" to face Jormungandr. If King Arthur was quintillions of times weaker than even the other ordinary deities, let alone the important pantheon heads he's getting involved with, he'd be so irrelevant that any God in the area breathing in his general direction would disperse him into red mist- and, thus, they'd never ask him to help fight Jormungandr, let alone to stand at the front of them.

Alternatively: In the Season 5 Odyssey, the supposedly mundane Bellona holds her ground against Chernobog, and then later with Pele against a Ragnarok-amped Hades...

The list goes on.

Here's every single Odyssey if you want to read an on-going story in which the Gods are constantly portrayed as one another's general equals. The 2018 Odyssey in particular is what the Smite Comics are depicting, above (see the Prologue/Chapter 1 sections under Lore), and where it is made a major plot point, repeatedly, that Gods are empowered by the worship of mortals, and weakened by lack thereof (the Mortals healed Ra through their prayers to him at Athena's request, Ares used Chaac's axe to ruin the region of the world that He Bo was God of and thus set into motion his eventual depowerment, etc.)

So, yes. I'll maintain "6-B+, likely 4-C" for current God incarnations that we see (notice that not a single feat over this has yet been demonstrated in the Odysseys), and "(At least [whatever their Lore gives if its higher than that],) likely Low 2-C (or 2-C in the case of pantheon heads or anyone comparable)" for Prime/Full Potential Gods (unless we find something better with concrete supporting evidence- something that corroborates there being an infinite multiverse as the Hindu/Egyptian mythos' seems to potentially entail, for example.)

(Side note: There's tons of supporting Tier High 7-Tier 6 feats littered all throughout both the odyssey and their in-game selves if you don't want Hou Yi to be the only example- storms to the horizon getting dispersed in seconds, blows that shake mountain ranges, multiple statements of mountain crushing, all of that good stuff.)

Saying that Cabrakan is 7-A because he crushes mountains ignores that even "Gods" (or rather, mythological beasts like Cerberus) that are being claimed as comparable are able to contend with Olorun, the strongest God (or at the very least the only one who is obviously free of the need to be empowered by mortals.) You can't expect calling it an outlier to fly, when every single depiction of the setting does this exact same thing, over and over and over again...

If this distinction should not exist, or if there is something else that's problematic in the current proposal I've made, I'd appreciate it if it was addressed. Otherwise, getting to the figuring out of which Gods have what lore feats that warrant their Full Potential selves having "At least [Lore Feat/s Tier]" is what I would like to do next (preferably in a separate thread as suggested above, what with this one getting quite long.)

(Note that I don't endorse using Skins for the purposes of lore feats/giving them separate tabs unless they are established to be a part of major in-verse story events. Ragnarok Hades, for example, would probably qualify.)

Also @God Aldamore, please tone it down some. Starting from the assumption your opponent is arguing in ill faith isn't going to help anything at all.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Perp Cabrakan made a valley and broke mountains. It isn't just arbitrarily saying "lol mountain so 7-A". And yes, I'm aware of where the inconsistencies lie, I mention a few of them myself, but then you have to assume one of two things. One, ignore inconsistencies and make everyone Low 2-C scaling to Olorun and Chronos (seems to be the implication?) or do my thing and ignore them and separate them by state of being (gods, top gods, and non-gods).

It's less that scaling to Olorun is an outlier to me and more that it doesn't make any sense. I'm relatively neutral on this matter to be sure- all I want is that we're consistent and that tiers actually come from somewhere (no arbitrary *****).

As for 6-B/4-C... why? I don't get it, you yourself posit that Hou Yi's Sunbreaker is legitimate, something I agree to, and his lore explicitly mention that as nine stars being shot down. 9x Star level is High 4-C. I just don't understand the logic in ignoring such feats.

 

[ThePerpetual]

I am not assuming either of those things: I am arguing that their current selves all scale to one another roughly speaking (though these incarnations do not seem capable of what they were in lore), and that their full potential selves probably ought to be considered separate Keys based on their feats within their Lore. Ordinarily this would result in them being wildly different tiers as their true selves, except...

"Likely Low 2-C" from their true/prime selves comes from multiple, non-contradicted statements in an overview of the World's Lore stating that the Gods were all previously inhabitants of a higher plane of existence.

It then goes to explain in considerable detail the ramifications this had for the mortal world, where their clashes would cause world-wide destruction and generally prove untenable for the continuation of deity-kind, demonstrating a clear sense of continuity between this statement and the story that precedes and follows from it. In other words, these statements are never contradicted.

The problem with Sunbreaker as I see it is that, if we're making the distinction between the feats we see out of their current selves (either in the simple gameplay itself or in the comics, Odyssey, etc.), then scaling to the Lore version of Hou Yi's feat doesn't work for the same reason that scaling to the Lore version of say, Ymir, whose body was used to create the earth/oceans/sky, so heavily contradicts what we actually see him capable of in this state.

That really only leaves us with the version that we can see with our own eyes to work with, it would seem to me. For one: shooting down nine Suns, with one arrow each, individually, wouldn't be any more of a 9 x Baseline 4-C feat than nine consecutive 4-C attacks would be. You can even see, if you watch the in-game Sunbreaker attack in slow motio, that each arrow is loosed one at a time- just like it was in his own Lore, I might add.

And since we're only given the version we see when divorcing these characters of their Lore, for their current selves, it's worth considering that:

> The Suns we see Hou Yi break are, in fact, not much taller than he is, and > 6-B would in general be considerably more consistent with the other assorted feats presented in the Odyssey

...so, there seems to be reason to cast at least some (albeit minor in my opinion) modicum of serious doubt upon his current self being able to break true Suns (in much the same way there seems reason to doubt that many of these Gods, given their much more lower-scale, subdued depictions here, could just whip any of their Feats from lore.) Hence, I limited the 4-C, as well, to "likely" for now to be on the safer side of things.

A couple more things of note-

> The Sun going dark/suffering an eclipse when Ra's eye was removed might be calcable? > Also, if Large Size for Gods is going to be widely accepted, then Sunbreaker (and Olorun's Inner Sun, because corroborating feats are fun) will also need recalculation. I ran the feat under the assumption that Awilix was roughly normal human height, to be safe. In all likelihood, you'll be looking at something in the realm of High 6-B for the new low end.