Smite Revisions?

[The_Impress]

We know they're on par with each other, not that they're all Low 2-C. You're using false equivalency to justify that just because Cabrakan = Chronos and Chronos = Low 2-C therefore Cabrakan = Low 2-C, this is not true, as in reality, Cabrakan himself has only shown 7-A feats, and we logically know such a character is clearly not treated as a Low 2-C by anyone working on the game.

This logic can further be extended to include other low tiers like Bakasura, Arthur, Scylla and Medusa. The only reason to put these characters there is using the feats of only two characters who supposedly had Low 2-C feats, which cannot be replicated by the entire cast, at all.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Plus I'd argue some of the feats proving everyone is comparable don't hold up (The Zeus thing for example was him being ganged up on by three Gods using Ao Kuang's cudgel)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'll play Devil's Advocate rq. If we accept that Cabrakan is equal to Chronos for whatever reason, then Low 2-C scaling isn't as insane as it is being portrayed. I'm remaining neutral until convinced by one side, buuuut...

We do the same thing elsewhere. Even if a character hasn't shown feats on the level of their tier except for the scaling to the given character, we still scale them to that character.

That said, the verse has a 7-A feat (and probably a bunch of other really low tier ones, just the 7-A feat is calcd and stuff), about a dozen tier 4 feats, and like two Low 2-C feats.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Frankly I think it's such a mess that I outright reject scaling based on in-game engine cutscenes or trailers or whatnot.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

I think i agree for the trailers, even the one with Olorun is just here to show his power, it's not really story thing so we cannot consider his feat of freezing all the gods in time as a valuable one i think. He CAN do it and he is certainely the most powerful gods of the setting (with Chronos) but this isn't necessary.

In general, i think the idea scaling everyone to Low 2-C isn't a good one but it's either this or Bambu's idea with the three part tiers.

 

[ThePerpetual]

The problem with this is that denying their scaling to one another is not exclusively based upon the cutscenes. Every single depiction within the Odyssey- the story of the verse- also depicts the various deities as being one another's general equals, as already demonstrated ad nauseam. So, if the cutscenes, trailers, gameplay, and actual story all: over, and over, and over, and over again: depict them in the same light, the only thing that leaves that would differentiate them from one another is their Lore (or, backstory.)

There are two problems, then, with using exclusively the Lore in favor of everything else to grant these characters their tiers, aside from that it flatly ignores and is inconsistent with everything else the verse depicts-

1) Said Lore is, often explicitly, tied to the ongoing story as described above. It is a very frequent occurrence that a God's Lore directly alludes to their attitudes towards the ongoing canon conflict, and thus remains subordinate to/an aspect of the larger canon.

"For some were Gods that could not suffer Achilles to survive. Straight and true the arrow flew and harpooned Achilles' heel, where his mother held him when submerged. The wound was deep, his weakness found, Achilles met his end... A decade hence, from Hades' depths, Achilles has been drawn. Armored now, upon the heel, revenge his only aim. For envious Gods stole from him his glory and his life. Now they tremble at the wrath of the man that cannot be harmed." -Achilles' Lore

"Now, as the greatest war between the heavens clashes on earth, what will remain when the dust has settled? Who will be the victor that writes history? If Ah Muzen Cab was, indeed, one of the original four Bacab, he survived the end of the world once and became a God. What power will he seize this time when the new world is made?" -Ah Muzen Cab's Lore

"Now, a new war brews, but this one between Gods, not men. While the battlefield is no place for the fairest of all, Aphrodite recalls the destruction between the Greeks and Trojans. Perhaps, this time, her beauty can be used to stop a war instead of start one. Perhaps, this time, she will discover the beauty within." -Aphrodite's Lore

"And now there is war. None could know peace without war, victory without defeat, glory without failure. Artio must join those that fight if only to enforce the cycle of things. Nothing and no one defies the laws of nature like a God." - Artio's Lore

"Patient to a fault, Chronos knows no urgency. He does not fear pain, or war, or death, for he is time itself and will outlast all. For this reason, his presence on the field of battle is alarming. This war between Gods must portend a conclusion so dire as to threaten the very existence of time. Perhaps, all the Gods should begin counting the seconds of the eternal clock. There may be few of them remaining." - Chronos' Lore

It goes on, and on, and on- these are a few of just the ones at the top of the list alphabetically. The same war the Comics depict, the Odyssey explores the story and aftermath of, is a part of these Gods' Lore. Separating them from the story itself is impossible.

2) The lore, divorced of the actual story of the setting, isn't even evaluating Smite at that point, but simple adaptations of mythology to a video game. Mythology is messy enough as is, just look at the ceaseless troubles the wiki's had evaluating mythological profiles: do you expect to be able to create complete profiles for these characters based on brief snippets of backstory on a God that, by the verse, is simply considered to be the actual God as they are in our real world? Over the every-showing-they-actually-have? Much less for them to be accurate.

Regarding false equivalencies...

Replication of the feats as they are is not a prerequisite for being equal in power to those characters. Attack Potency is simply that- potency- not range or scope. No, no one but Chronos is time itself. However, the following remains:

Premise (P) 1) Olorun is a being that possesses three aspects, one of which created the universe, in addition to possessing a fundamental command over all cosmic forces.

P2) If Olorun is a being that possesses three aspects, one of which created the universe, in addition to possessing a fundamental command over all cosmic forces, then Olorun is Universe level+.

Conclusion (C)) Olorun is Universe level+.

P3) Aside from this, there is Chronos, who is Time itself. Aside from even that, Jormungandr's battle with Thor during Ragnarok is fated to shake the entirety of creation, and to herald its eventual collapse, and Vamana who spanned the entire of Earth, the Underworld, and the Heavens (Note that, in Hindu Cosmology, this simply refers to the entire current universe, not other parallel realities.)

P4) If Olorun is Universe level+, and Chronos, Vamana, and Jormungandr, to name a few examples, all demonstrate powers on a cosmic scale on a similar scale, then this scale of power is not inconsistent within the verse.

C2) Therefore, this scale of power is not inconsistent within the verse.

P5) We are given no reason to assume that Olorun's Durability: or the durability of any God, for that matter: is dramatically beneath the potency of their powers.

C3) Therefore, Olorun's Durability should scale to his Attack Potency, which itself is consistent enough within the verse to not dismiss as a one-off occurrence.

P6) Cerberus not only harms Olorun, just as Gods have harmed Gods countless times in the story-line preceding this instance, but his doing so is vital to the story, as Cerberus being able to harm him explains why Yemoja was called upon to begin with. If Olorun was infinitely stronger than every other God, then he would not have been considered with the ambush, and instead have evaporated Persephone's minions with a blink.

P7) Whenever a character A has a showing that makes them comparable to another character B, with any given feat C established in the story, Character A can reasonably be said to be on even-enough footing to scale, regarding Attack Potency and Durability with Character B (barring extenuating circumstances, which- if we're no make no Lore/Current Self distinction- there are none of.)

P8) If Olorun's Durability is Universe level+, Cerberus harms Olorun (and his doing so is vital to the story), and a character A (Cerberus) harming a character B (Olorun) puts him on even footing with Olorun regarding Attack Potency and Durability.

C4) Cerberus is, still, Universe level+ in Attack Potency and Durability.

P9) We have no reason to hold Cerberus on a pedestal over every other God in the story. He is not a major player at all, and every depiction we receive of the Gods shows that they can harm one another freely.

P10) If Cerberus is Universe level+, and we have no reason to hold Cerberus as being above every other God, then we can safely state that other Gods are comparable.

C5) Other Gods are comparable to Olorun, and to similar Gods with feats that are cosmic in scale.

So, only Chronos being Time itself is irrelevant.

There really isn't any way to overstate just how consistent Gods harming each other is within the story- it is, in fact, THE definitive central premise of the entire setting and story.

If you reject that premise on appeal to Authorial Intent ("...just because Cabrakan = Chronos and Chronos = Low 2-C therefore Cabrakan = Low 2-C, this is not true, as in reality, Cabrakan himself has only shown 7-A feats, and we logically know such a character is clearly not treated as a Low 2-C by anyone working on the game.")- the entire verse ceases to be, and at that point you cease to debate Smite at all.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Most obvious Conclusion is that Cerberus is an outlier who cares.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I will say this: Hindu mythology isn't usable unless that facet of it is reflected in game. So Vamana's point is invalid. Shaking an observable universe is only 4A IIRC. Cerberus harming Olorun could come from many things- including that Cerberus breath is durability negging. It's poison. Not truly AP.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The bit about Thor vs Jormungand is referring to the Norse Cosmos which is galaxy sized in the game lore.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Cerberus's feat is likely a very specific thing either due to his breath or his control over souls wich allows him to bypass conventionnal durability. The three tiers idea is maybe the best idea we have for now though of crouse, we can also chose Perp's idea if it's more suitable and simple for everyone.

But, in the case we decide to use the "7-A, High 4-C and Low 2-C" thing, wich tier will apply to wich god ? Olorun and Chronos would still be Low 2-C ? Also, the primordials like Nox, Chernobog, Terra, Geb, Janus or Nemesis will be High 4-C to ?

 

[ArkhamDC06]

In any case, don't know if we're going to reach an ending for this at this point.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Well. let me summarize this for Ant and others who haven't been following:

SMITE profiles have random feats from both real world mythology and insane scaling issues. A character could be 3-B for basically nothing via being comparable to another character who is 3-B for basically nothing.

The solution to this boils down to one of two paths. Due to the lore you can interpret it as one of two ways- the lore states both that leaders of gods, such as Odin, Zeus, and Olorun, have such power that it is pretty astonishing to everyone else. Such characters also have a Low 2-C feat. The lore also states that these guys have been harmed by others, be it by comic books or by text stuff.

The routes are one of the following: We disregard the inconsistencies of this and hold the comics to be 100% accurate to the game. The inconsistencies include minions of far weaker gods being able to harm the supposed top tier gods (Cerberus inflicting Olorun with more pain than he had ever felt before, for example). Another such inconsistency is King Arthur and Merlin supposedly being the best to contend with Jormungandr despite Jorm just recently having thrashed Thor. We would, in this route, consider this consistent despite statements and say everyone scales to the 1/2 Low 2-C feats at the top of the food chain. Nobody is stronger or weaker than anyone except by statement alone.

The other route is to consider the inconsistencies and explain them in as serviceable a manner as possible and create separate tier scalings based on statements. For example, mortal legends and monsters would be the lowest echelon, normal gods would be the middle, and the leaders of gods and those who scale by lore would be the top. Inconsistencies can sometimes be explained- Cerberus harmed Olorun... with poison, which is dura neg. Fenrir threatening Asgard could be explained as Fenrir merely growing stronger by Ragnarok, which could explain why he became Unbound only now when he was too weak to do so before.

TL;DR, the lore is inconsistent and one of two paths have to be taken. Most seem in favor of the latter choice, whereas Perp is in favor of the former.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Good summary. I would also like to to summurize the chain food :

- Olorun and Chronos (who are specifically separated from the others because they're considered to be the most powerful gods)

- Primordials (Nox, Nemesis, Janus, Terra, Chernobog, Geb and others i probably missed)

- Top Gods and those who scale to them (Zeus, Hades, Poseidon, Amaterasu, Ra, Thoth, Isis, Odin, etc)

- Regular Gods (Most of them, like Ares, Athena, Bellona, Ah Puch, Set, Horus, Osiris, Baron Samedi, Thor, Loki, Hel, Tyr, etc)

- Monsters and mortals (Merlin, Arthur, Medusa, Cerberus, Chiron)(Personal note : Fenrir isn't a minion i think, he's speficifally stated to be a real threat to the gods and more precisely Odin and doesn't serve the gods though i agree we should consider Ragnarok has an effect on him).

Note : If i made a mistake for classification of some gods, please let me know for this being as good as possible.

If the second choice is taken, that would give us : Low 2-C at least for Olorun and Chronos (and possibly for the other Primordials as well), High 4-C for regular gods and "At least 7-A, likely much higher" scaling to the actual profile of Cabrakan for mortals and monsters.

I have personal issues with all of this though, like Izanami is stated to be a creator god so is she considered as a top god, a primordial or a regular one ? Also, what about Kukulkan or Nu Wa for example ? And if the second choice is taken, will the Top Gods be High 4-C as well or will they get another tier (like "At least High 4-C, likely higher" since they're stronger than regular gods normally) ?

Anyway, after so much discussions, we are finally reaching a conclusion for the SMITE verse apparently but we still have to decide what to do to end this.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Your chain is a bit off. Based on Odyssey, Olorun is directly compared to Odin and Zeus' power. I still dunno about Primordials though. So top gods would be Low 2-C.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Alright. Anything else to notice (like are the gods listed good and about Izanami, Kukulkan and Nu Wa) ?

Note : only an opinion but if the Top Gods are Low 2-C, the Primordials should to (i mean, by nature they're at least as powerful as the Top Gods so...).

The good news is we're close to a conclusion.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean. If they're pantheon leaders they're pantheon leaders.

Where is this from? The primordials being = to top gods thing?

 

[ArkhamDC06]

The lore and their very nature...i think. I mean, they're literal embodiements of the aspects of existence like Nox being night and darkness itself and terrifying Zeus, Nemesis stated to be superior to Zeus and applying justice to the gods themselves, Chernobog is stated to be the embodiement and the ruler of all Evil and Darkness and Geb and Terra are the Earth itself and what we see in the game are likely mere avatars. For Janus, i admit i don't know why he is stated to be a Primordial but apparently it is from the game's lore.

I can be wrong about this but the lore states the Primordials are above regulars and top gods.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Where is the lore? I know about Nemesis being able to distribute justice to everybody but I dunno how that works. Being "Earth" isn't actually higher than Low 2-C. Also like... where does the classification of "primordial" come from? What is this? I just don't remember it at all, might have a blank spot.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Don't really no for Nemesis and in honesty, i based myself on her own profile on the wiki actually and it lists her as a Primordial stronger than Zeus and that he is scared of her (wich is true in the lore to). So i might be wrong.

For the rest, the classificatation comes from the and the lore. Like in Greek Mythology, Nox/Nyx is stated to be the Primordial Goddess of Night and the game respects that and it's the same thing for Terra (who is the roman counterpart of Gaea).

Never said it was above Low 2-C, only that as Primordials (or likely avatars of the true Primordials, after all it would be difficult to play as Earth itself in the game), they should at least scale to Top Gods if they're not more powerful. The lore of Geb mentions Nut who is herself a Primordial and they're equals and for Terra, her lore clearly states she is a Primordial ("At the forging of creation, Terra was split from all other primordial matter to form the earth").

Though it's apparently for Terra that at least her and Ouranos might be less powerful than Zeus and the other greek/roman Top Gods since the lore mentions the Titans were more powerful than her and Ouranos and Zeus defeated the Titans.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I know Nemesis is at least comparable to Zeus, I believe this is mentioned directly in her in-game lore. So that's fine.

We can't use real world mythology though, we've been over this.

I still need to know where the term primordials comes from and why it makes them far stronger than the Low 2-Cs.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Just a thing, I won't be available for the rest of the day due to personal things so i will probably come back tonight (i'm from France btw) or tomorrow if needed.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Nox is also stated to be what Zeus fears so there's that

 

[ArkhamDC06]

I didn't say we should use world mythology, just that the game is pretty relevant to reall world mythos in itself.

I don't think the terme primordials was explicitly used (or i missed it wich is entirely possible) but the description and the lore are clear about the nature of theses gods.

Now i don't say they should be above Low 2-C, just that, for example, Nox could be rated as Low 2-C with a description like "Superior to Zeus who is explictly scared of her". They would be above but not to much.

 

[The_Impress]

Legit no, the game basically knows nothing about the Hindu Mythos aside from general wikipedia reads, so it isn't relevant to the real world mythos IMO

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Maybe for the Hindu Mythos (i admit i don't really know that much about it myself) but this is not the case for Greek Mythos actually. Though they actually altered Terra in the sense they made it look like there was nothing before her, not even Chaos.

Btw, wouldn't it be cool to see Chaos in the game (yeah it's not really important but i would like to know if i am the only one who think it would be pretty fun) ?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

We're not using real world mythology for the game. From the VSBW's point of view, the two are separate verses with one being inspired from the other. From the real world point of view, this is a case of the author using mythology to make their own stories which creates an obvious fictional departure from actual mythology.

So in either scenario the cross-scaling is unusable, we're not doing it. Now, does anyone have an idea on the Primordial stuff/why this is a thing? Because I have no idea.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Variable power due to place, circumstance, worship, etc. is actually a plot-point in the comic so. I'm pretty sure in the game too so that excuses a lot of stuff.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Wdym

 

[ArkhamDC06]

I don't recall specifically syaing the word "primordial" (in the sense of talking about a specific "race" of gods i mean). Terra's lore makes sure you understand that she existed before everything else though.

However, if that's not ok, we can still consider them to be Top Gods (aside from Janus because, again, i don't really know where comes the idea he is a Primordial anyway).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"I don't recall specifically syaing the word "primordial""

I mean. You did, as did others. I'm just wondering what you actually mean by that. Like I get Neith's lore states that she came from the primordial waters but I don't know of this term as an actual in-game classification, it seems to have been invented here in order to say "something very old"- which shouldn't be an automatic tier thing. If the god hasn't been shown to be comparable to the Low 2-Cs, they shouldn't be comparable. Neith and others shouldn't, Nemesis should.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

I used wrong words, i meant that i don't recall the word "Primordial" was used in the game to classify gods. Sorry, my bad.

For the rest, Nox at least should scale because Zeus is truly scared of her and her lore indicates "Even the God of Thunder is known to fear her, for Nox could steal his whispered breath and send him to a sleep eternal where dreams do not exist and no one ever wakes with the daw."

Then there is the case of Chernobog....wich is very complicated in the sense that he basically has no lore. Even in our world, his mythological counterpart has nearly nothing outside of the fact that he is the embodiement of Primordial Evil and Darkness and fights his brother Belobog who embodies Good and Light. In game, he has no clear lore. However, the developpers spoke about him in their "Closer Look" section and it's effectively stated he embodies evil as a concept. And he is also classified as "Effortlessly Powerful" and an "Inevitable Evil".

https://www.smitegame.com/news/chernobog-a-closer-look?lng=en_US

And i agree with Neith and it should be the same case for Terra then.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Nox's sounds more like hax though. Chernobog has literally zero feats regarding being Low 2-C so he isn't Low 2-C, he just has those other things.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Doesn't see why it should be considered as a hax. She is specifically stated to be one of the oldest and most powerful deities in her lore, otherwise a Top God like Zeus (who can scale to Olorun...apparently) wouldn't be so scared of her.

Doesn't he have some feats in an Odyssey or something ? If not, we can still put him as "Unknown".

In any case, since the term in itself is not used, unless we find something about it, we can simply consider some of them as Top Gods or scaling to them. Do we at least agree for the "At least 7-A, likely much higher" and the High 4-C tiers for the others ?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

...because it states its because of hax? "Zeus is afraid of her because she can put him to sleep." None of that is related to AP.

Chernobog? Not that I know of but I could be wrong. We should just scale him to High 4-C if we take the three tier option, making him a normal god.

WHY ARE WE CONSIDERING THEM EQUAL TO TOP GODS

I just established that we have no idea where that concept comes from. Why cling to the idea that we arbitrarily say "they're Low 2-C anyways because!!". These guys you have named "Primordials" should be High 4-C like the other gods. 7-A is fine for low-end people, High 4-C for normal gods.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Calm down, i didn't say all of them would be, i just said that at least Nemesis and Nox would scale because it's clear they're comparable. And, why do you think it is an hax ? Zeus (and, as said by the lore, the mightest deities) is absolutely scared of her in general, not because of an ability, especially since nothing indicates it due is to a hax, it's more likely because of her own might she can do this. "Put him to sleep" is simply a metaphor, not a power. She is the Night itself, of course it's gonna be related to sleep and the eternal sleep without dreams mentionned is complete death rather than a mere "Now you sleep" effect. It's just that she is THAT powerful. The devs themselves explains this (and yes, i checked out, it's an official channel for the game) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3t5_uh69O4

I kind of recall a feat for Bellona keeping up with Chernobog but i don't know where it comes from.

And like i said above, if no one brings up something about it, then we should abandon the idea of primordials as a way to classify gods.

"7-A is fine for low people" 7-A alone or "At least 7-A, likely higher" or something like that ? Because it would more logical to put them with "something higher" if they are to be deemed able to fight against other gods like Merlin and Arthur are supposed to against Jörmmungandr.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Wdym

Territory / Worship Based Power.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also Bambu that excerpt is saying Nox can kill Zeus. I still think Low 2-C Zeus is wank btw.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Low 2-C Zeus is wank for sure...

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Not sure about it either. I mean, Olorun and Chronos are Low 2-C pretty surely but the others ? Maybe Nyx as a Primordial but aside from her (and formerly Chernobog but i can agree to put him as a regular god), i don't really other gods that can be Low 2-C. Though we could still have a tier like "At least High 4-C" or something like that for some of them.

Are we sure Zeus and comparable deities scale to Olorun ?

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Do we at least agree for the regular gods and the mortal/monsters ?