Smash Hands revision

[The_real_cal_howard]

"As time passes on this stage, the level appears to travel through a wormhole from the imaginary Super Smash Bros. Melee world into reality. You move through a cloud-filled sky over a vast mountain range, then into a deep-space vista of dark blues and purples. The scenery is as real as you get in this fantastical world." Final Destination

Firstly, thanks to HSW for showing me the quote.

Secondly, given the status of the hands in the verse, I beleive this would make Master Hand 4-D (and immeasurable due to higher dimensional status), as he not only is the natural resident of Final Destination, but it's also his creation. He'd see the Smash World as imaginary, and therefore fiction, which coincides that he sees them all as toys/trophies.

We also know that the wormhole transporting them to "reality" has to do with Master Hand because it's tied to his heath in the original 64 Smash. And also with Final Destination's black/whiteout upon the Hand's defeat.

There's also this from the Smash DOJO page on Final Destination from Brawl.

"In Final Destination, the characters, who have been battling in more imaginary worlds, come closest to a real-world setting."

And his Melee trophy

"The Master Hand awaits anyone who survives the long difficult road to the Final Destination. This symbolic link between the real world and the imaginary battlefields of Super Smash Bros. Melee is quite a handful in battle, and just because he wears a white glove doesn't mean he fights clean. Get ready to get flicked, swatted, punched, and poked like crazy!"

And his one in Brawl...

"A being tied to the link between this world, where trophies fight, and the world beyond. The meaning of his existence is unknown, as are his goals, but he seems to have obtained (and kept hidden) a power that borders on absolute. "


Actually, if Master Hand sees the Smash world as fiction, and Smash's version of the Creation Trio + Arceus are still 4-D beings, would that make Master Hand & Crazy Hand High 2-A?

How this applies to Tabuu (and to a lesser extent, Giga Bowser) is up to debate.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Bad Cal. Go to your room.

I mean, while it's true that the Hands are supposed to represent the "real world" compared to the Smashers being toys, it seems very unlikely that the places we visit in Final Destination are some kind of beyond-dimensional space that just so happens to look exactly like a normal world. Hell, the Smashers are even able to exist there easily and all. Immeasurable Olimar when?

Also, pretty sure we should downgrade Giga Bowser. He's just a super form of Bowser who happens to be fought after the Hands. He's still just trophy fighter, like Bowser himself. With our current reasoning, both Ganon and Mewtwo would be Low 2-C here.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also, I still don't know why Master Hand and Crazy Hand aren't abstracts. They are stated multiple times to be the embodiment of creation and destruction, and also stated to be symbols of the world.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Embodiments =/= Abstract. Even more so here, where the Hands are clearly physical and can die (SSE) without anything bad happening.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I can name a dozen more-or-less physical abstracts, abstract existence =/= Type 8 immortality, Master Hand didn't die in SSB, and even then, it was Tabuu, who is the embodiment of Subspace (which should probably give him nonexistent physiology for being the embodiment of a void) and should also be an abstract.

Also, Smashers being in Final Destination isn't a valid reason to debunk. Cynthia, Cyrus, and Lucas/Dawn could move in the Distortion World, Agunimon could move in the Dark Area, and some 10-B dude was able to move beyond the outerverse, the place where The-One-Above-All resides.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

If you're abstract and you're physical, then either you have Type 8 or you're just plain not an abstract, Cal. Also Master Hand was visibly killed, unless you argue he just got knocked out for all the time it took to complete the game and through the erasure of subspace.

Also, again, embodiment =/= abstract. Tabuu doesn't even embody a concept, he embodies a physical place.

Except that in most cases, either it's an outlier or the entity who owns the place deliberately lets them exist there.

 

[TriforcePower1]

"As time passes on this stage, the level appears to travel through a wormhole from the imaginary Super Smash Bros. Melee world into reality. You move through a cloud-filled sky over a vast mountain range, then into a deep-space vista of dark blues and purples. The scenery is as real as you get in this fantastical world."

"In Final Destination, the characters, who have been battling in more imaginary worlds, come closest to a real-world setting."

"The Master Hand awaits anyone who survives the long difficult road to the Final Destination. This symbolic link between the real world and the imaginary battlefields of Super Smash Bros. Melee is quite a handful in battle, and just because he wears a white glove doesn't mean he fights clean. Get ready to get flicked, swatted, punched, and poked like crazy!"

Only the last statement could potentially lead to an upgrade

Consider this as a way to keep Arceus the strongest bud in Nintendo

 

[Kaltias]

MH and CH could be type 3 abstracts.

Which... doesn't really entail anything at all on its own

Also that doesn't seem High 2-A at all

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The only thing that would possibly grant High 2-A would be being higher dimensional to everything in the games, including the still 4D Palkia, Dialga, Giratina, and Arceus. The thread was to have them as 4D beings if you bar that, which would grant immeasurable speed.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Seems really vague to me. I see nothing that warrants an '''Immeasurable speed''' rating.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

In hindsight, being higher dimensional doesn't warrant immeasurable speed by default, so you're right. Should be higher dimensional though.

Though, I still think Master Hand being High 2-A via seeing Arceus Palkia and Dialga as imaginary fiction is on the table.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, the thing about Pokemon's god tiers is that that's also cross scaling. If Smash Bros hasn't portrayed the Pokemon God tiers as upper dimensional , or better yet toys based on them, then being 5-D is also controversial.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Except their trophy entries have them as higher d beings.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The Creation Trio is certainly Tier 2 in Smash, they have basically the same feats as in Pokémon in their trophy description.

I still don't buy Master Hand transcending the Smash world. Not enough proof.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Transcending would make him immeasurable, which I agreed in hindsight would not be the case here. He still does see it as fiction though.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I'd argue that making toys come to life isn't transcending them like seeing a world like a book as fiction, given that toys still physically exist in our world.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Inb4 Tier 2 Toy Story.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

After searching, I have come to beleive that to Master Hand, it's more than making toys come to life. Toys aren't imaginary. It seems to be in the same vein as the humans in The Lego Movie or Annoying Dog.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Except that characters actually turn into trophy in-universe when defeated. It's not like Master Hand is just imagining that the toys are fighting. Also if everything was just part of MH's imagination or something, then the verse wouldn't be able to exist when he's knocked out or killed, like in the SSE or in Classic Mode.

And even then, all of this is speculatory.

 

[Kaltias]

Btw i'm pretty sure that being >>>>>> a 4-D character doesn't make you 4-D.

Unless Jiren is considered 4-D and I missed it

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Jiren doesn't se them as imaginary beings that he plays god with.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Jiren isn't a 4-D character, he's a 3-D character with a 4-D degree of power. A 4-D character is where someone exists across time.

 

[Kaltias]

@Cal

Not relevant because it doesn't really have anything to do with their dimensionality. It only means that they are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CT in terms of AP

@DDM

Well yeah, that was my point