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Smash Bros CRT: The cleanup

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I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die

I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die

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Dang, has it really been 3 and 1/2 years since Ultimate came out. I still remember the memories, getting it pre-ordered, the Grinch Leak, the fan speculation, seeing Banjo and King K Rool actually getting in, having my internet crash when Steve came out, and finally, having Sora conclude the end of an era.

On the other hand, the profiles are rather incomplete, they lack many abilities and items, and look rather barebones. I have created some blogs which contain the new and complete profiles. These profiles contain all the abilities they have had over the years, a bunch of renders to make it feel complete, and links to verify yourself.

The main thing that you may notice is how all the profiles have a 4-A Rating, this will be explained below
Smash Bros 4-A upgrade
I believe the main characters should have a possibly 4-A. Sonic can harm Tabuu and damage his wings. The fighters are be able to harm and defeat Tabuu at the end. And Master Hand survived an attack from Tabuu, although he was knocked out. This proves they scale to him in some way.

Some may wonder if this is just game mechanics (like why the fighters don't scale to Galeem), But I think there are differences between the relationship between Galeem/fighters and Tabuu/fighters

Galeem/Dharkon:
  • Killed the fighters without any issue via AP, even with spirits they are far weaker than Galeem.
  • Was shown to be able to puppet hundreds of Master Hands with no issue, indicating there is no scaling between master hand and Galeem. They are able to kill Master Hand's with ease.
  • Even when Galeem and Dharkon got defeated by the fighters, it was more as Galeem and Dharkon destroying each other with the fighters intervening (Which can be supported by this cutscene), and the fact that when one of them got defeated, the fighters would be killed.
Tabuu:
  • Killed the fighters via hax abilities (Offwaves is Transmutation), and even it is AP, there is nothing unfeasible with him being 4-A but higher with off-waves.
  • He was shown in plot that he is able to be physically harmed, and his defeat was him being overpowered by the fighters physically
  • He could only KO Master Hand, he could not destroy Master Hand.
As said above, if people are skeptical, a "Possibly" 4-A could work, as there is some ground they are comparable to Tabuu.

Supporting Evidence
In the game, there are two final smashes which support the fighters being higher than High 7-A
  1. Ice Climber's final smash (Can get high tier 6 to tier 4 range) and the fighters survive it
  2. Sephiroth's final smash, which the fighters can survive
Due to the final smashes and them going toe to toe with Tabuu, I believe a rating of possibly 4-A should be added to the fighters

With those two things cleared up, here is the (Very late) sendoff to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

FA8WFHMXEAAZYgy.jpg:large
 
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All that said, I agree with this, especially the 4-A upgrade.

Though, what about the Galeem scaling for the fighters? Technically, the bad ending of only defeating Dharkon and not Galeem wasn’t canon, and considering the fighters would get stronger overtime through spirits when they would get one shot by Galeem at the start of the game, they could probably scale to 3-A.
 
I for sure agree and psycho makes sense with that as well
 
I will review the reworked files in another instance, for now I want to tackle the rest.

I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die said:
Smash Bros 4-A upgrade
Click to expand...
About this, I always found Tabuu's 4-A tier rathe sus, because afaik it fails to meet our criteria for Stabilization Feats.
Although it meets point 1 and 3, to my knowledge there's nothing indicating that Tabuu's own raw power stabilized the subspace, instead of just his existence. Type 4 also doesn't hold up for a mere lack of feats.

I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die said:
Ice Climber's final smash (Can get high tier 6 to tier 4 range) and the fighters survive it
Click to expand...
I don't think the way this feat is being treated works.

First of all, being hit by a raising mountain doesn't mean you're hit by the full force of the thing coming up.
Second, the mountain being so gigantic based on the stages is clearly a case of game mechanics, the mountain's always the same size regardless of the stage, and it magically comes out from off screen.

Third, and I think @Armorchompy can explain it better than me, scaling the speed of the mountain to Pikachu's thunder doesn't work because the speed of the bolt is adjusted to meet game balancing, as all elements of a game such as this are, since their speed affects gameplay, meaning that they all have to be programmed in a way to make the game functional.


Sephiroth's Final Smash also needs more scrutiny, because:
  • All final smashes are meant to be powered up attacks coming from the characters accessing the energy of a Smash Ball
  • Final smashes don't really deal much damage, as the games itself scales the potency of the attacks depending on your damage %, so the characters surviving it is an odd criteria, since, just like every other attack, they can basically no sell it when they have low %, or be absolutely annihilated when the counter is high
  • You can say Sephiroth can access the Supernova without a Smash Ball because of his trailer, but in that case you have to accept he's much stronger than all other characters but Cloud.
 
Psychomaster35 said:
All that said, I agree with this, especially the 4-A upgrade.

Though, what about the Galeem scaling for the fighters? Technically, the bad ending of only defeating Dharkon and not Galeem wasn’t canon, and considering the fighters would get stronger overtime through spirits when they would get one shot by Galeem at the start of the game, they could probably scale to 3-A.
Click to expand...
I’d assume it would be “3-A With Spirits” as in game the fighters get stronger as they equip spirits to them. I assume this would be how the story would justify everyone being able to beat the final bosses

I suppose the same could be said about the Stickers in Brawl but there less ploy relevant there
 
Alright, so:
  • In this thread, High 7-A stats (as well as other stuff derived from the same logic such as LS) were agreed to be invalid, a replacement needs to be found either way.
  • Given Spirits empower the characters, if they scale to Dharkon/Galeem it'd only be with Spirits. I personally think downscaling is fine but I don't mind one way or the other.
  • Are the Off Waves transmutation? Being defeated turns you into a trophy in Brawl, it's a universal mechanic. And in-gameplay they just inflict huge damage (albeit Galeem may be weakened at this point), enough to OHKO on most difficulties, which would indeed turn characters into trophies instantly by Subspace Emissary rules. I suppose it'd make sense to assume he'd be higher with them anyways since he's clearly reliant on his wings to use them at full power and even with them destroyed they're his strongest attack.
  • As explained in the blogs I don't believe the Ice Climbers calc is ok as it's currently done, while the Sephiroth calc is (under a math standpoint, scaling to supers in fighting games is generally iffy territory, and Saman's points on the matter make sense to me, Sephiroth do be strong), but its full yield wouldn't scale to characters.
  • Trailer usage is odd, specifically in Sephiroth's case, given that it causes a bit of a scaling nightmare:
    • Galeem <<< Sephiroth, Cloud = Sephiroth, but Cloud is part of World of Light, and he needs to be defeated by some other character to be unlocked, and then he's subject to the same non-standard game over if you fight and beat only Darkhon/Galeem instead of both, instead of just strolling up to the other and one-tapping them. Admittedly this is all done by hax as is Cloud's initialy defeat at the hands [hahahahhahahahahhahaha] of Galeem, but it's still really weird. That said, I looked through Cloud's reveal trailer and he literally never gets hit in it, in fact he never misses a single attack, which is actually pretty accurate to his position in competitive smash 4 tier lists in the scaling that Sephiroth's trailer shows, so I guess maybe? Sora's character, similarly, shows him never getting hit by anyone but Sephiroth. I assumed this was Square being famously stingy with how its characters are displayed as usual but weirdly enough Luminary does get his ass kicked in his trailer (by like, ten guys, but still). I doubt Smash Bros devs actually care at all about having powerscaling but there is consistency.
  • That is, if we consider gameplay shown in trailers legit, which I think generally, is fine, but I can understand disagreements.
 
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Armorchompy said:
Alright, so:
  • In this thread, High 7-A stats (as well as other stuff derived from the same logic such as LS) were agreed to be invalid, a replacement needs to be found either way.
  • Given Spirits empower the characters, if they scale to Dharkon/Galeem it'd only be with Spirits. I personally think downscaling is fine but I don't mind one way or the other.
  • Are the Off Waves transmutation? Being defeated turns you into a trophy in Brawl, it's a universal mechanic. And in-gameplay they just inflict huge damage (albeit Galeem may be weakened at this point), enough to OHKO on most difficulties, which would indeed turn characters into trophies instantly by Subspace Emissary rules. I suppose it'd make sense to assume he'd be higher with them anyways since he's clearly reliant on his wings to use them at full power and even with them destroyed they're his strongest attack.
  • As explained in the blogs I don't believe the Ice Climbers calc is ok as it's currently done, while the Sephiroth calc is (under a math standpoint, scaling to supers in fighting games is generally iffy territory, and Saman's points on the matter make sense to me, Sephiroth do be strong), but its full yield wouldn't scale to characters.
  • Trailer usage is odd, specifically in Sephiroth's case, given that it causes a bit of a scaling nightmare:
    • Galeem <<< Sephiroth, Cloud = Sephiroth, but Cloud is part of World of Light, and he needs to be defeated by some other character to be unlocked, and then he's subject to the same non-standard game over if you fight and beat only Darkhon/Galeem instead of both, instead of just strolling up to the other and one-tapping them. Admittedly this is all done by hax as is Cloud's initialy defeat at the hands [hahahahhahahahahhahaha] of Galeem, but it's still really weird. That said, I looked through Cloud's reveal trailer and he literally never gets hit in it, in fact he never misses a single attack, which is actually pretty accurate to his position in competitive smash 4 tier lists in the scaling that Sephiroth's trailer shows, so I guess maybe? Sora's character, similarly, shows him never getting hit by anyone but Sephiroth. I assumed this was Square being famously stingy with how its characters are displayed as usual but weirdly enough Luminary does get his ass kicked in his trailer (by like, ten guys, but still). I doubt Smash Bros devs actually care at all about having powerscaling but there is consistency.
  • That is, if we consider gameplay shown in trailers legit, which I think generally, is fine, but I can understand disagreements.
Click to expand...
  • I didn't see the comment on how the High 7-A calculation was faulty
  • I don't think they should scale to galeem/dharkon, even with spirits. We see in the bad end that even with the spirits, they outright die
  • I looked at your sephiroth calc, and the amount of force the fighters would endure would be High 6-B, this may be the new value if High 7-A turns out to be bogus. I saw your comment for the Ice Climbers, my question is, if we recalculate the feat but only based on the height we see in-game (And measure the height of the iceberg on a large stage), would the feat be valid????
 
There are some calcs from Smash Bros that don't really follow our KE policies yeah, but there should be other feats to find and scale off of. Dharkon and Galeem are both in classes of their own, so I'd consider Sephiroth one-shotting Galeem an outlier in that regard. And besides, all Smash Fighters should be within the same ballpark.

I'm neutral about Tabuu's 4-A scaling.
 
I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die said:
I didn't see the comment on how the High 7-A calculation was faulty
Click to expand...
To my recalling this post of mine was agreed with
I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die said:
I looked at your sephiroth calc, and the amount of force the fighters would endure would be High 6-B, this may be the new value if High 7-A turns out to be
Click to expand...
Potentially, it's still a bit sus to scale characters to a super from a character who's higher in power level, if higher power level he is, and also amplified by an external item, especially when way higher than any other feat.
I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die said:
I saw your comment for the Ice Climbers, my question is, if we recalculate the feat but only based on the height we see in-game (And measure the height of the iceberg on a large stage), would the feat be valid????
Click to expand...
Technically but speed would also go down so it'd be like, 8-C
 
That is a very rough estimation, it could be 9-A or 8-B or even higher, I'm just spitballing here. But then you'd have to apply elastic impact to the characters hit and that'd definitely lower the yield by a lot, not really worth bothering with
 
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Made a calc for Galeem. Also, the speed calc is outdated because it still uses the length of a galaxy. However, I disagree with the speed anyway. Galeem's lasers covered a portion of the earth then they detonated, creating an explosion. From the looks of it, the lasers are MHS+. The explosion wouldn’t scale to combat speed of course.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
Made a calc for Galeem. Also, the speed calc is outdated because it still uses the length of a galaxy. However, I disagree with the speed anyway. Galeem's lasers covered a portion of the earth then they detonated, creating an explosion. From the looks of it, the lasers are MHS+. The explosion wouldn’t scale to combat speed of course.
Click to expand...
Ayy, the thread finally got updated!
 
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