Small BotW link change

[Keeweed]

Second key: “stronger than before”

How has this completely obvious lie manage to stay on the profile for so long, especially since it was used to justify Link being a ridiculously higher tier. The game straight up says the exact opposite: (12:45)

Zelda says you haven’t regained your full power. This line plays even if you have done everything you can do in the game, Zelda always says you are still weaker.

I also have problems with Link scaling to Calamity Ganon at all. I’ll grab the scan for one of things tomorrow, but for everything else:

You shot ganon in the back 4 times before the fight even begins with weapons designed to kill ganon, with these weapons stated to be stealing ganons strength beforehand (which I have a scan for but its on my switch and it’s late where I am) so the weapons both weakened him and shot him while amped, you then stab him with a sword specifically designed to kill him, then none of that mattered anyways because Ganon then flexs his might on you and Zelda says Link straight up can’t hurt him and needs the bow of light to ignore his durability to win. And even with that Link achieved literally nothing and Ganon was going to kill him until Zelda stepped in and sealed him away, which as revealed by BotW 2, also achieved nothing. Ganon can also instantly kill Link in a single hit even with max health, plus fully upgraded armor, while blocking.

So Link’s profile needs to be vastly reworded. Instead of being at least 6-C he’ll be at most 6-C with the new justification pointing out he can barely wield the master sword without it killing him and him being weaker than before (the master sword is more support for him being weaker and not scaling to calamity Ganon since even trying to wield the master sword practically killed him). Adding even more onto that guardians are repeatedly stated to be immensely dangerous for Link to fight and single ones can constantly stomp link throughout the entire game. Link in the past killed so many an entire field was covered in their corpses and this was when he only had a sword and shield vs post calamity were he has time stop and dozens of other different tools.

I don’t see anyway people can justify calamity link is somehow stronger than pre calamity link when the game actively tells us he is weaker and he can’t even pick up his main weapon without nearly dying.

Edit: Probably shouldn’t have posted this while going to bed, but the biggest part of the revision, link being stronger, is impossible to disprove the game says clear as day that is false: so I can sleep easy. For the Ganon stuff I know people will probably disagree, but I just don’t see Link scaling. Again the boss fight starts with Ganon being shot in the back four times, that in and of itself makes me think he shouldn’t scale.

Edit 2: I misremembered how much health you can get in the game. So change the sword killing Link to hurting link. Still good support for him being weaker, but not as bad as before.

after some discuss the at least before 6-C is definitely going, but at most probably won’t be added. The justification just needs to be cleanly reworded.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Master Sword is where the 6-C tier even comes from, even after calamity, he'd still be 6-C with it regardless. We can just remove the "At least" however.

 

[Keeweed]

I mean, I know the feat comes from the master sword. But in the same way he got an at least from upscaling, I think he should get an at most for backscaling. The sword nearly kills him for trying to pick it up; that’s a pretty good reason to backscale. Though as long as post calamity link is rated as weaker than pre calamity link I’ll consider this revision a success. Wording on what comes before 6-C on the page doesn’t matter too much if the description says all the relevant info.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I do agree with Post-Calamity being weaker. If the Master Sword killing Link at the beginning of the game is a supporting reason, shouldn’t BOTW Link have 3 keys? Pre-Calamity, Post- and End of Game?

Pre- and EoG could be one key, but is there any evidence of Pre- having his Hax like Time Stop, for example?

 

[Keeweed]

I was personally thinking that earlier but does post calamity link have something to scale to pre master sword. I know there is an enemy that can summon storms, but I’m not sure if that is environmental destruction.

Plus the supporting reason isn’t instantly killing beginning game link, it’s that even at the very end game you still lose over half your health to the sword. So it gets pretty close to killing your even at your best.

 

[Lou_change]

Nearly killed him, depending on how you do things you can have up to thirty hearts, the thirteen hearts drained to lift the master sword is less than half that to go even further that was life absorption if I recall so it wasn't durability also he fought the blight ganons who were superior to the other champions who were implied comparable to him back then Zelda isn't an omniscient narrator and when can ganon kill link with one shot.

 

[Keeweed]

Exact hearts don’t count towards the master sword last I checked. So it’s 13 out of 20, that’s really bad, and that’s complete peak post calamity Link.

Zelda is literally a third person narration in that scene. She knows link, she’s seen him train for years. There is no reason to assume she is dead wrong.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I was personally thinking that earlier but does post calamity link have something to scale to pre master sword. I know there is an enemy that can summon storms, but I’m not sure if that is environmental destruction.

Plus the supporting reason isn’t instantly killing beginning game link, it’s that even at the very end game you still lose over half your health to the sword. So it gets pretty close to killing your even at your best.

Isn’t that only if you have 13 hearts? Does it almost kill you if you gain more?

Question answered

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

You can have up to 30 hearts in Breath of the Wild

 

[Keeweed]

Ah, I don’t know how I misremembered that considering I’ve played the game to completion twice. Then he isn’t as hurt as I thought he was. Him just being straight 6-C is fine then (though he should still backscale very slightly since the weapon is still hurting him due to being too weak).

 

[Lou_change]

Zelda is literally a third person narration in that scene. She knows link, she’s seen him train for years. There is no reason to assume she is dead wrong.

If we consider age of calamity it seems she knew him for less than a year not counting his nap & again the sword has life draining which is hax.

 

[Keeweed]

Age of calamity contradicts how BotW went pretty hard. Though even ignoring that: A year is still a very long time, the entire plot of BotW is that link is weaken, so a line saying he is still weaker being false doesn’t make any sense, and the master sword still hurts him when past link wielded it with zero difficulty.

Edit: the dairies in BotW make it very clear Zelda knows a ton about Link and his training. So no matter how long she knew him, she would at least know how strong he is.

This doesn’t even change that much for the profile, all it does is change a small upscale to a small downscale, that’s it.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Can Wolf Link harm calamity ganon? Pretty sure he can't, so he should scale

 

[Keeweed]

Did autocorrect mess up your point? Why would he scale if he can’t hurt them. If you mean can, they only can hurt Ganon after having his power drain, being shot in the back 4 times, still being partially sealed by Zelda, and can’t actually hurt ganon anyways once he gets more of his power back.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I meant to say Ganon scaling above wolf link

 

[Keeweed]

I don’t think BotW wolf link would scale to Twilight Princess wolf link. The game is the same timeline so the original wolf link would already be dead from sheer age at the very least. So calamity ganon will probably just pretty massively upscale from BotW link (since that’s who BotW wolf link scales to).

 

[XXKINGXX69]

No indication that Wolf Link got weaker. Also, just saying I agree with the OP, Link has to use weaknesses

 

[Dust_Collector]

Wolf Link is just a little bonus you can get with Amiibo, he shouldn't be used for scaling whatsoever or even discussed.

Anyway yeah I don't know why Link is stated as being stronger than he was pre-calamity. Stats don't change but the justification needs to change to having the Master Sword and whatnot.

 

[Keeweed]

Kinda late bump, but my schedule is pretty bad right now. Just bumping so this thread isn’t forgotten, will comment whenever I get chances.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I'm not sure the Master Sword thing really works as the sole justification, since it especially gets a boost against Ganon.

 

[Keeweed]

I'm not sure the Master Sword thing really works as the sole justification, since it especially gets a boost against Ganon.

What do you mean by that? Justification for him being his current tier or as justification against the current scaling (for post calamity link). It isn’t the sole justification against the scaling, Zelda specifically says out loud Link is weaker. If you mean for link’s tier, the master sword has the feat.

Though note I’m watching a movie with my brother right now so I’m going to be gone for like an hour after I post this.

Edit: Did you think I meant link should scale to ganon? I said the exact opposite repeatedly.

 

[QuasiYuri]

What do you mean by that? Justification for him being his current tier or as justification against the current scaling (for post calamity link). It isn’t the sole justification against the scaling, Zelda specifically says out loud Link is weaker. If you mean for link’s tier, the master sword has the feat.

Though note I’m watching a movie with my brother right now so I’m going to be gone for like an hour after I post this.

Edit: Did you think I meant link should scale to ganon? I said the exact opposite repeatedly.

I was answering the arguments against the OP actually. Should have precised. Mb.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Master Sword was single-handedly able to activate something that requires having power comparable if not superior to the Goddess Hylia's, so with or without amps or it being a "Blade of Evil's Bane", it still upscales from Hylia on its own merits.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

The Master Sword was single-handedly able to activate something that requires having power comparable if not superior to the Goddess Hylia's, so with or without amps or it being a "Blade of Evil's Bane", it still upscales from Hylia on its own merits.

Does Hylia scale to the Godesses?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

If you mean the Golden Goddesses, absolutely not. However, Hylia has her own 6-C feat.

 

[QuasiYuri]

The Master Sword was single-handedly able to activate something that requires having power comparable if not superior to the Goddess Hylia's, so with or without amps or it being a "Blade of Evil's Bane", it still upscales from Hylia on its own merits.

Except Link has a pretty depowered one in that game that only get its power back against specific opponents.

I don't mind most iterations of the sword scaling to Hylia, but it feels like giving Wind Waker's depowered Master Sword (before Link do the whole quest to bring it back to full power) as much power as its FP self.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Except Link has a pretty depowered one in that game that only get its power back against specific opponents.

The sword trials DLC lets Link regain the Master Swords full power regardless of whoever he's fighting as opposed to the base games mechanic of it only working at full power against the calamity.

 

[Keeweed]

Bring up the sword being weakened, it probably would be a good idea for him to have two keys (or at least a note). He already is weak enough throughout majority of the game for the weaken master sword to just kill him outright, and he also doesn’t get the full powered sword until the dlc. So something like: Unknown (Vastly weaken due to his resurrection, at first is killed by trying to pick up the master sword when depowered, eventually becomes strong enough to wield a weakened master sword) | Island level (Can wield the master sword at full power but is still weaker than before his resurrection)

Resurrection | Sword Trails

Again there is a storm feat from a pretty weak enemy in this game and every other weather feat in this series seems to scale so I don’t think it would be environmental destruction, that unknown key can be changed from unknown to Unknown, eventually City level (note it’s a thunderstorm so I’m pretty sure those are the low end City level ones by default and small city level is just for generic rain) if the weather feat is usable.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Again there is a storm feat from a pretty weak enemy in this game and every other weather feat in this series seems to scale so I don’t think it would be environmental destruction, that unknown key can be changed from unknown to Unknown, eventually City level (note it’s a thunderstorm so I’m pretty sure those are the low end City level ones by default and small city level is just for generic rain) if the weather feat is usable.

I don't think we can use standard Low 7-B to 7-B storm results for the wizzrobes creating storms since they don't cover all the way to the horizon (Link can get out of range of these storms if he runs away for like half a minute). The size of the storms could probably be calced by comparing the distance Link runs to leave the affected area to the full map of Hyrule, which I think we have an accepted calc that puts Hyrules at hundreds of km or something like that.

He should be Building level+ at the beginning of the game tho, due to being strong enough to harm some monsters that can withstand being blasted by remote bombs.

 

[Keeweed]

Oh yeah I remember some of our 8-C feats do come from BotW. Doesn’t the game also have a high 8-C feat or am I misremembering.

For he storms I’ll replay BotW after I finish my coding homework and I want to relook over something’s and test other things out.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I don't recall a High 8-C feat in BotW.

 

[Keeweed]

I just rechecked, I see the high 8-C was just a different end of the currently accepted feat and the low end was the one that was accepted. Then yeah 8-C+ for very beginning game is fine and then I’ll look at the storm stuff to see if it will be higher than that.

 

[QuasiYuri]

The sword trials DLC lets Link regain the Master Swords full power regardless of whoever he's fighting as opposed to the base games mechanic of it only working at full power against the calamity.

Yeak Ik about that, but isn't it a post-game thing? It should be another key entirely (like "End-Game" or idk)

 

[Dust_Collector]

It's not post game, all the dlc takes place before Link fights Ganon. Although I agree it should be it's own key.

 

[Infinite]

Probably a little late. But if this thread is agreed upon, would Astor still scale to Botw link?

 

[Keeweed]

This is going to be my last post for a very long while, so hopefully the main point of this revision is done with so I won’t need to be here (school is annoying this year). But I don’t think Age of Calamity should scale to BotW and vise versa. That game contradicts BotW hard. I know it’s an alternate timeline, but then that just brings into question why a completely separate and different timeline would scale to another. In multiverse theory I could have been a soldier by this point, I’m not in this timeline. There is zero reason why I should be comparable to a me that did something completely different in a completely different universe, which is the same thing with AoC Link, literally is an entirely different person to the BotW link (and I’ve noticed multiple profiles scale alternate universes and I’ve never understood why, since they are completely different and unrelated people by the sheer nature of being a completely different timeline).

 

[Dust_Collector]

There is zero reason why I should be comparable to a me that did something completely different in a completely different universe, which is the same thing with AoC Link, literally is an entirely different person to the BotW link (and I’ve noticed multiple profiles scale alternate universes and I’ve never understood why, since they are completely different and unrelated people by the sheer nature of being a completely different timeline).

I don't see what's so unreasonable about the scaling between the games. AoC was the exact same timeline until Terrako time traveled into the past, the only differences happening after that happens, and even then those differences have nothing to do with how powerful the characters are besides Link not getting weakened by the Calamity and Ganon being at full power due to successfully completing his revival instead of being held back by Zelda for a century. We'd have to change how we scale Zelda as a whole due to the whole 3 timelines stuff in order for us to not scale stuff between BotW and AoC.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Well it's been a month, should we just make the changes to Links justifications? It's pretty straight forward.