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Skill Debate: Yujiro vs Hayato

Nothing similar has appeared in Kenichi, but it doesn't mean that a single technique they haven't shown puts them above when every high class disciple has about a dozen more techniques Yanagi lacks.

High class disciples can stat amp, death hax, sense anything that enter their range, feel everything, read the opponent's rythym, overpower the opponent's rythym, read their minds, hearts, feelings, true emotions etc etc etc etc etc.

It's not as simple as "a technique they haven't shown" cus the same can be said for their techniques which Yanagi hasn't shown.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Nothing similar has appeared in Kenichi, but it doesn't mean that a single technique they haven't shown puts them above when every high class disciple has about a dozen more techniques Yanagi lacks.
High class disciples can stat amp, death hax, sense anything that enter their range, feel everything, read the opponent's rythym, overpower the opponent's rythym, read their minds, hearts, feelings, true emotions etc etc etc etc etc.

It's not as simple as "a technique they haven't shown" cus the same can be said for their techniques which Yanagi hasn't shown.
Click to expand...
True, and with Yanagi's scaling to Yujiro in terms of skill and even his go-to technique, peak High class makes sense when I think about it. It's kinda like the relationship Fugil and Yujiro have on the main skill thread: they come out to be about equal as Yujiro can do thinks Fugil can't and the opposite holds true as well
 
Not peak lol. Peak High class means being kenichi. Having nothing besides creating vacuum in your palm and slapping with fluid motion has nothing on peak lol. He'd be about beginner High class at most. Even beginner high class disciples have feats above him (Siegfried, Odin, Takeda etc).
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Not peak lol. Peak High class means being kenichi. Having nothing besides creating vacuum in your palm and slapping with fluid motion has nothing on peak lol. He'd be about beginner High class at most. Even beginner high class disciples have feats above him (Siegfried, Odin, Takeda etc).
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What kind of skill feats does Kenichi have?
 
After taking a quick scan of some of Kenichi's feats and Sieg's feats, I'm starting to roughly figure out where in the Bakiverse Master Class falls under at least.
 
 
Yeah, moving on to someone who got surprisingly high on the list: Pickle

Pickle's signature technique is an on all fours dash for an opponent. This is the aftermath when it hit Retsu. He was able to develop this technique that not only overcomes Retsu's Crushing Fist, a technique specifically designed to counter the strength and speed aspects of this move, but it also allows him to go from being outsped by the Deinonychus to outspeeding it enough to not only tag it, but full on tackle it.

Mastered the basics of Aikido without knowing it. So basically without even knowing, he was able to do something only 1 of the 10 Aiki masters in the last 100 years has been able to do

Jumps back to his original positon. Not only does he jump backward to dodge and jump back before Jack even notices, but it was back to the exact same point to which Jack couldn't even tell that he moved, and it looked like a casual feat as well
 
The dash on all fours is not anything impressive, it's just him dashing full speed ahead, taking a dashing stance beforehand is the same thing sprinters do in the olympics to achieve a faster start.

That is pure luck, you can't learn something without knowing it. You can achieve something similar without realizing what you're doing though.

That's just jumping strength/speed. Basically Saitama's "serious side steps" but with a backstep instead. Not skill.

All in all i'd say Doyle >>>>>>> Caveman here. His dash is something everyone does, his mastering of Aikido is pure luck as from what i know he has no knowledge of martial arts nor is he shown to use any complex martial arts and his jump is just stats.

He'd not even make it to Middle Class Disciple.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
The dash on all fours is not anything impressive, it's just him dashing full speed ahead, taking a dashing stance beforehand is the same thing sprinters do in the olympics to achieve a faster start.
That is pure luck, you can't learn something without knowing it. You can achieve something similar without realizing what you're doing though.

That's just jumping strength/speed. Basically Saitama's "serious side steps" but with a backstep instead. Not skill.

All in all i'd say Doyle >>>>>>> Caveman here. His dash is something everyone does, his mastering of Aikido is pure luck as from what i know he has no knowledge of martial arts nor is he shown to use any complex martial arts and his jump is just stats.

He'd not even make it to Middle Class Disciple.
Click to expand...
"Dashing on all fours" is a bit downplay-ish. The fact that this move allows him to outspeed something that's given it's speed rating specifically for outspeeding Pickle is something notable. Add to that the aforementioned "overcoming Crushing Fist, which is supposed to hard counter it", and it's fairly obvious that the appearance of this move is deceiving

Thats what Pickle is doing. He's able to apply to combat a martial art only 1 of 10 masters in the last 100 years have been able to apply without realizing he's even doing it

Not only did he jump back and dodge the strike at the last minute, but he used the board as a bounce pad instead of destroying it and barreling through it AND jumped back to the exact same position in both his stance and where he was standing.
 
It specifically says "he will explode with all his power". It's not skill, it's just him moving as fast as he can. And ofc it overcame Crushing Fist, it ******* blew Retsu to the other side of the venue while tanking the hit.

Yeah, it's pure luck, it's not a feat of copying, or quick learning cus he doesn't even know what he's doing. He's simply moving in a way, that just so happens to be a hard martial arts.

The board wouldn't break, he doesn't kick it, he pushes off it, besides...fiction, not skill in "attacking the board so that it doesn't break". And he jumped back to the same spot, are you telling me you can't jump back to the same spot if you jump away from it? It's a feat of jumping strength, it even says so "He had enough strength to dodge and return to his point of origin".
 
Firephoenixearl said:
It specifically says "he will explode with all his power". It's not skill, it's just him moving as fast as he can. And ofc it overcame Crushing Fist, it ******* blew Retsu to the other side of the venue while tanking the hit.
Yeah, it's pure luck, it's not a feat of copying, or quick learning cus he doesn't even know what he's doing. He's simply moving in a way, that just so happens to be a hard martial arts.

The board wouldn't break, he doesn't kick it, he pushes off it, besides...fiction, not skill in "attacking the board so that it doesn't break". And he jumped back to the same spot, are you telling me you can't jump back to the same spot if you jump away from it? It's a feat of jumping strength, it even says so "He had enough strength to dodge and return to his point of origin".
Click to expand...
Yes, I never said the basics of the move weren't strength and speed, however, to not look at the fact that this move was developed to help Pickle take down stronger opponents (like large dinosaurs) and faster opponents (namely Deinonychus) would be negligent

Its not pure luck, it's a copying feat. It's not like Pickle A) doesn't know what he's doing, he's seen Aiki used and how its suppose to be used and is replicating said martial art and B) it's not like he doesn't copy fighting styles and techniques throughout his run, namely some kind of grab on Baki, Jack's entire style, and Aiki

With the power he was barreling back with, he wouldn't have even made it to the kick, he'd have gone straight through. And no, I doubt anyone irl would have the precision to jump back to the same spot in the same position to the point to which if you did it fast enough, a vastly experienced fighter like Jack couldn't even noticed that they did it. Yes, he had the strength to do it, but that's disregarding the skill it would've took. Just because something requires strength does not inherently mean that skill isn't required at all
 
But it's not a skill feat if it's done via speed or strength.

Baki specifically says he doesn't even know he's doing Aiki it's definitely not a copying feat. As for copying jack's style imma need a scan of that cus it may be indeed good.

Not really, it's not like driving skills can help you not break a stick if you're driving at it 100miles/h. It's just fiction being fiction. Everyone can jump back to the same spot, the position is not exactly important cus you can keep whatever position you want when jumping unless you're making jumps that you're normally not capable of (which is clearly not the case as he could have jumped way further) and Jack not noticing is simply speed. And it doesn't take much skill, the basis of a move being strength means it doesn't rely on much skill if any at all. It's below average human levels of skill

Again, don't even try to put this caveman above a Kaioh like Dorian.
 
It's literally a technique he developed that allows him to amp his strength and speed. Would that not classify as a skill that just amps his stats?

Just because he doesn't know what he's doing doesn't mean he isn't instinctively copying the movements he's seen. Pickle is portrayed as a... less than intelligence character, but his instincts and imagination replace his combat intelligence, instincts being the cause of the use of Aiki here. I'll try to find the scans, but it may take awhile

In theory, even that example is possible, such as swerving your tires at the last second to go around it, drifting to knock it out of the way, or even using something like hydrolics to go over the stick. The same area sure, but the exact same spot is not a common occurrence by any stretch, and Pickle doesn't keep the same position at all. Jack's first thought is that the punch phased through Pickle, clearly indicating that Pickle's position was the exact same. Regardless of the speed involved, he dodged by jumping back, sprang off of the board behind and returned to his exact same position as though he hadn't moved to begin with. With this alone he's looking more impressive than both Dorian and Doyle
 
He doesn't amp, he just uses it at maximum output. If your casual punches do not deal damage, but you use your strongest punch and break plankwood, that didn't mean you used skill to amp. You just gave it your all, he's doing the same. Barely average human skill

He's not really copying if he doesn't know what he's doing then. Cus he's not copying something, he's just doing it randomly. To copy something is to analyze how something is done, understand it and perfrom it yourself, it's not copying if you don't know what you're doing.

No cus none of those cases are what Pickle did, he didn't just avoid the wood barrier, he landed on it. It is a pretty common occurence, as long as people are trying to land in the exact same spot they can, they usually don't cus "why would they do it", sure, but they sure as hell can. The rest of the feat with the jumping, jack not realising etc etc etc, is purely strength. And there is a reason Jack didn't compliment his skill for doing such a feat but rather only his stats, cus it's not impressive skill.

And no, mastering chinese martial arts and several other techniques being below jumping in the same spot, are you kidding me? So if i do that right now am i gonna be the most skilled dude in the world?
 
Firephoenixearl said:
He doesn't amp, he just uses it at maximum output. If your casual punches do not deal damage, but you use your strongest punch and break plankwood, that didn't mean you used skill to amp. You just gave it your all, he's doing the same. Barely average human skill
He's not really copying if he doesn't know what he's doing then. Cus he's not copying something, he's just doing it randomly. To copy something is to analyze how something is done, understand it and perfrom it yourself, it's not copying if you don't know what you're doing.

No cus none of those cases are what Pickle did, he didn't just avoid the wood barrier, he landed on it. It is a pretty common occurence, as long as people are trying to land in the exact same spot they can, they usually don't cus "why would they do it", sure, but they sure as hell can. The rest of the feat with the jumping, jack not realising etc etc etc, is purely strength. And there is a reason Jack didn't compliment his skill for doing such a feat but rather only his stats, cus it's not impressive skill.

And no, mastering chinese martial arts and several other techniques being below jumping in the same spot, are you kidding me? So if i do that right now am i gonna be the most skilled dude in the world?
Click to expand...
He is amping, his max speed is unable to catch a Deinonychus and his maximum strength is only enough to stalemate and eventually whittle down the likes of a T-Rex. With FLS, he is able to catch a Deinonychus easily and absolutely steamroll a T-Rex and comparable dinosaurs.

He very clearly has it analyzed and understood. If I see kanji and see how someone reacts, I may not be able to read Kanji, but I can at the very least replicate said kanji if I wanted to envoke that same reaction, but this is even deeper than that. He's doing that same thing, but purely through instinct. Even a monkey can copy movements and actions it doesn't understand.

He avoids Jack's punch, not the board, and he bounces off of the board instead of breaking it. In the same area, sure. In the exact same spot, down to the position you were in before moving? Seriously doubt that. It's clearly a skill feat to be able to so perfectly dodge an attack with so much movement involved that Jack doesn't even realize he's been blitzed, only coming to this conclusion after noticing the aftermath of the spring board, initially thinking his attack phased through Pickle.

Except nobody irl can replicate this feat even without the power and speed involve, or at the very least it's insanely difficult. That's like me saying I'm the most skilled person in the world by KO'ing someone by being loud
 
Except it's not, the technique he used is his max speed, it specifically says that he's not amping, he's just using all his strength.

Exactly, even a monkey can copy movements and actions it doesn't understand. Doesn't make him more skilled than world class martial artists though.

Jack specifically says it's a feat of speed. He literally never mentioned anything on skill, if it was that hard to pull off skill wise, he'd have at least mention it.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Except it's not, the technique he used is his max speed, it specifically says that he's not amping, he's just using all his strength.
Exactly, even a monkey can copy movements and actions it doesn't understand. Doesn't make him more skilled than world class martial artists though.

Jack specifically says it's a feat of speed. He literally never mentioned anything on skill, if it was that hard to pull off skill wise, he'd have at least mention it.
Click to expand...
He's using his strength to amp his speed, yes. In outlines throughout several pages that it isn't possible for him to catch Deinonychus without this move, to the point that Deinonychus literally upscales in speed from Pickle on this site. (Edit) We also see him even wrestling somewhat evenly with a T-Rex while transformed, yet he can flatten comparable Dinosaurs with one use of FLS

It does if said monkey is using Aiki correctly in combat, which, of 10 people that could even master Aiki in the last 100 years, only 1 could do

Thats not inherently true at all. The speed at which the feat was done was not only the most notable thing about the feat, but also the most jarring for Jack. Pickle clearly had to have the timing to kick the board at the exact right time to launch him forward instead of destroying it and sending him barreling through, as well as skill to return to the exact same spot and position despite changing these 2 things drastically in the scenario
 
Speed is just leg strength after all. And yes they scale from his normal attempts, not when he's giving his all as specifically shown by him.

Pretty sure all 10 masters could understand as much as the very very basics of Aiki, and he's not even doing anything with it, he's just losely immitating it.

Btw about not being able to land in the exact same spot, there are people who do a thing called parkour, and you don't even need to be that good at it, to be able to perform precision landing which requires you to be exactly where you want to jump, as much as a cm off, and you'll be falling off that pole.

Also kenichi does a similar thing but on fast moving objects.

My point isn't simply saying "pickle doesn't compare", cus i would have just given Rim running upward walls with parkour skill and ended the conversation. Im saying do not say Pickle is more skilled than Dorian under any circumstance, he's not.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Speed is just leg strength after all. And yes they scale from his normal attempts, not when he's giving his all as specifically shown by him.
Pretty sure all 10 masters could understand as much as the very very basics of Aiki, and he's not even doing anything with it, he's just losely immitating it.

Btw about not being able to land in the exact same spot, there are people who do a thing called parkour, and you don't even need to be that good at it, to be able to perform precision landing which requires you to be exactly where you want to jump, as much as a cm off, and you'll be falling off that pole.

Also kenichi does a similar thing but on fast moving objects.

My point isn't simply saying "pickle doesn't compare", cus i would have just given Rim running upward walls with parkour skill and ended the conversation. Im saying do not say Pickle is more skilled than Dorian under any circumstance, he's not.
Click to expand...
Sorry, had class, I'm back for a bit, but I still have my last one soon

Anyway, no, it was flat out said he couldn't catch a Deinonychus. It's not said he couldn't casually catch one or he couldn't catch one because he wasn't going all out, it says he couldn't catch one. If he wasn't able to catch one before, but was able to catch one using the move, the move speed amps

No, the 10 masters were (of course) masters of Aiki, but only 1 was skilled enough to use it in combat, implying that using it in combat is more difficult than even just mastering it. For Pickle to use even just the basics successfully in combat scales above 9 of those 10 masters of Aiki, who couldn't even apply the basics in combat

Parkour is 100% not the same. In parkour, there are elements of precision to their surface scaling and landings, but there is always at least tens of ways, if not possibly hundreds of ways the runner can land so long as they land in the desired spot safely and in the manner that allows for continued movement. That is not this. In Pickle's scenario, there is literally only 1 way he can land and one place he can land. It's hard enough to have moved so drastically from one spot and return to the exact same spot, but to do so AND return in the same position? It's insanely difficult, and even that example in no way comes close to the level of precision displayed in this feat

Hell, if the feat downscales from Kenichi, I'd take that considering some of the things I've seen him pull of (granted I don't think Pickle himself scales down from Kenichi, but the feat scaling to one of Kenichi's feats would be helpful in the long run)

I'd disagree for reasons above
 
Except that's directly contradicted by what Pickle said which meant his full explosive speed could catch up to them. So in other words if he did a faster start, he would catch up to them. But then again, if i really wanted to i can say well Miu speed amped 10x her reaction speed or literally takes from her power to give to her speed, but it's really not my goal as you're contradicting Pickle's actual words.

Hardly, he didn't even pull anything impressive with it. Definitely not above the masters. Besides again plain useless arguments on both of our sides as im just saying Pickle isn't > Dorian, since i can just say, well Siegfried and Lugh exist in the High class disciple and end this.

Ok then since we agree it gets outdone by Kenichi i'd rather not continue arguing Dorian above pickle.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Except that's directly contradicted by what Pickle said which meant his full explosive speed could catch up to them. So in other words if he did a faster start, he would catch up to them. But then again, if i really wanted to i can say well Miu speed amped 10x her reaction speed or literally takes from her power to give to her speed, but it's really not my goal as you're contradicting Pickle's actual words.
Hardly, he didn't even pull anything impressive with it. Definitely not above the masters. Besides again plain useless arguments on both of our sides as im just saying Pickle isn't > Dorian, since i can just say, well Siegfried and Lugh exist in the High class disciple and end this.

Ok then since we agree it gets outdone by Kenichi i'd rather not continue arguing Dorian above pickle.
Click to expand...
No, it says several times that it's referring to power as in strength. In his fight against Musashi, which was way later on and much more current, it literally says that he couldn't catch the Deinonychus and then with the move he can, nothing more, nothing less

No, it is 100% above masters, as not a single master except Shibukawa is able to actually use Aiki in combat at all. Using Aiki in combat is considered the pinnacle of Aiki, regardless of your familiarity with the art.

True, regardless of the placement exactly, I concur that Kenichi is overall more skilled than both of them, so if you'd like, we can just move on to the next Baki character
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Though let's skip to the top tiers, this is getting way too long, at this pace we'll never finish.
Click to expand...
Alright, some of the scaling may be a bit wonky, so if you need context for scaling (as an example, Katsumi scales to top tier Kaiohs like Ryo and Retsu during NGB, so if you wanted some feats for them if we hadn't already discussed, just ask). I'll grab some stuff and drop it here
 
Since I had the distinct pleasure of typing for an hour an a half, getting my comment eaten right before I remembered to copy it, and undo not working fml I spent about 45 mins typing up a more disgestible version of my college thesis level essay I just typed out. I'll feed each feat one by one so they can be discussed to the fullest possible extent

First feat for Karate Jesus Katsumi Orochi:

  • Can defeat a group of street thugs brutally and effortlessly. Even ripped out the 2 front teeth of one of the men with just his fingers
 
Is that really a feat? Middle class people outdo that with their eyes closed. 3 of the Ragnarok members fodderized a group of either 50 or 100 can't remember people without taking a scratch. Beating thugs really ain't a feat.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Is that really a feat? Middle class people outdo that with their eyes closed. 3 of the Ragnarok members fodderized a group of either 50 or 100 can't remember people without taking a scratch. Beating thugs really ain't a feat.
Click to expand...
It's the first thing he ever does in the series, don't worry, the good stuff is coming

Next up,

  • Is able to almost kill the considerably strong and fast Yasha-Zaru Jr., only being stopped by Baki
 
Not a skill feat? Beating up people has a lot more to it than simply skill and even then, it's just scaling above him, not a feat on its own.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Not a skill feat? Beating up people has a lot more to it than simply skill and even then, it's just scaling above him, not a feat on its own.
Click to expand...
Fair enough, there a feat later that is like this one but undisputedly skill based (I just checked and Katsumi's stats are actually better than Yasha)
 
This isn't the one, but a good one all the same. These 2 fighters should be roughly comparable. Katsumi achieves this by outskilling him to an utterly massive degree

  • Absolutely relentlessly clowns on world class wrestler Roland Istaz
 
World class wrestler with barely any skill feats of which i doubt he would be a basic thug in kenichi verse.

I told you to skip to the good part, not bring more useless feats
 
Firephoenixearl said:
World class wrestler with barely any skill feats of which i doubt he would be a basic thug in kenichi verse.
I told you to skip to the good part, not bring more useless feats
Click to expand...
No, as I mentioned before, Maximum Tournament fighters, to even participate, must be on the level of martial arts master, combat sports champions, or have some kind of accolade that makes them worth risking this illegal fighting tournament for. Even baseline Maximum fighters can clown a basic thug like nothing

Edit: it would be like pinning a basic street thug against Mike Tyson (who is in the tournament and scales directly to this guy)
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Ok i need a feat of the guy you mentioned.
Also the boxers earlier were world class but still middle class disciple.
Click to expand...
That might take a bit (last class is about to start too)

So that puts BoS Katsumi at clowning middle class bois. He's roughly high mid or low high for that, yeah?
 
So in terms of scaling, like I said earlier, he scales to Iron Michael, the Mike Tyson of Baki. He's also the Baki version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Gotch this guy. His best in verse feat is putting a Lion in an armlock and making it submit (his nicknames are Mr Submission and the Joint Maniac and his style is called Joint Fetish, so as you could tell, I think they are very subtly implying that he is a submission artist/hold expert)
 
BoS Katsumi is normal Mid Class. Mid Class can stomp other mid classes who stomp other mid classes and still be mid class.

Let's skip to the feats and leave the scaling.
 
Question: there's a pretty good point coming up, but it has to do with Katsumi defeating someone who has little skill but borderline stomps him in strength. Is that viable to use or no?

For now, a feat: Katsumi allowed Roland to dislocate the joints in his arm, only for Katsumi to set all the joints in one movement
 
BakiHanma18 said:
Question: there's a pretty good point coming up, but it has to do with Katsumi defeating someone who has little skill but borderline stomps him in strength. Is that viable to use or no?
For now, a feat: Katsumi allowed Roland to dislocate the joints in his arm, only for Katsumi to set all the joints in one movement
Click to expand...
No not really. I would like for you to avoid all "beat x and beat Y", because everyone above can beat people below. It's like mentioning a feat for me like "Could beat a 12 y/o", like yeah ok, that's really not impressive, cus im just beating someone weaker and less skilled.

Setting all the joints back to normal is more strength than skill cus it's from the muscles tensing so much they put the joint back together, but yes people can do that in Kenichi.
 
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