Skill Debate: Yujiro vs Hayato

[Firephoenixearl]

That's flowery language. He just has a strong punch and can attacks when you try to attack him.

 

[BakiHanma18]

That's flowery language. He just has a strong punch and can attacks when you try to attack him.

But it's specifically outlined by Ali that it's not just a nickname or moniker, he's the real deal so to speak

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah, more like "he lives up to his name" not "he becomes gas and obstructs your field of vision". It's more to mean that "his fighting style is indeed like fighting gas", for unknown reasons but not because he produces or creates gas.

Similar to how i can say "fighting against Xiao Lee is indeed like fighting against a feather". It's not because the dude becomes an actual feather or has feather properties, it is because the way he takes attacks is similar to how a feather does.

PS: With the new upgrades Hayato became 7-C (he may get some hax later on, but after im done with the verse, which is gonna have to be in like a month or so, since i have my university exams soon, we may check whether it'll be a good fight between Hayato and Yujiro).

 

[BakiHanma18]

Yeah, more like "he lives up to his name" not "he becomes gas and obstructs your field of vision". It's more to mean that "his fighting style is indeed like fighting gas", for unknown reasons but not because he produces or creates gas.
Similar to how i can say "fighting against Xiao Lee is indeed like fighting against a feather". It's not because the dude becomes an actual feather or has feather properties, it is because the way he takes attacks is similar to how a feather does.

PS: With the new upgrades Hayato became 7-C (he may get some hax later on, but after im done with the verse, which is gonna have to be in like a month or so, since i have my university exams soon, we may check whether it'll be a good fight between Hayato and Yujiro).

Oh yeah no, right, that's what I meant by "emulate". He can fight like he's smoke, but he doesn't actually become smoke (that'd be ****** crazy). He's just skilled at hitting and pressuring in a fashion that's reminiscent of fight a cloud of smoke

First off, lemme know when your exams start so I can wish you well, and second, sure thing, just hit me up after the upgrades

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah, but that's not really a form of quantifiable skill. Because it can mean anything, it's not something concrete we can evaluate.

I think i will do well enough in the exams...or i hope so at least.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Call upon your Rakudai training to outskill the exams

 

[BakiHanma18]

Yeah, but that's not really a form of quantifiable skill. Because it can mean anything, it's not something concrete we can evaluate.
I think i will do well enough in the exams...or i hope so at least.

I'd say it's fairly apparent what that chalks up to when watching the fight: he was skilled enough to either mitigate the affects of Retsu's punches to the point to where he could continue to pressure with no issue, or at the very least he was being affect (as his face would suggest several times, though I don't know if his outward appearance is solid enough evidence) and he was still able to put himself into an advantageous position, which would be even more impressive. As far as his hits, he has able to punch in a fashion that bypassed Retsu's defenses, even though he wasn't landing any clean hits, making his offense at least comparable to Retsu's defense.

I have no doubts that you'll kill the exams, you've got it in the bag

 

[NotoriouSoda]

So Yujiro vs Hayato when?

 

[BakiHanma18]

So Yujiro vs Hayato when?

The real fight will be after the upgrades. @Earl isn't sure when he can get to them because of exams, but they'll be done eventually

 

[KGiffoni]

So Yujiro vs Hayato when?

Whoever does this, please bloodlust both

Unbloodlusted Yujiro isn't as fun

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So Yujiro vs Hayato when?

The real fight will be after the upgrades. @Earl isn't sure when he can get to them because of exams, but they'll be done eventually

The main problem isn't getting the upgrades. It's whether it'll be fair post upgrades. As he may gain some passive aura hax, which may or may not turn this into a stomp.

@Baki

Well it's nothing directly quantifiable nor impressivly skillful. Start of series Siegfried was Middle Class disciple, so i'd say mid class disciple is where they would stand. Middle class disciple is your classical "good but either lack of feats, or gets fodderized by the rest".

 

[KGiffoni]

I mean, Yujiro has his passive aura hax too

 

[NotoriouSoda]

Doesn't Yujiro have more AP along with a ton of amps?

 

[KGiffoni]

Well yeah but who knows

 

[BakiHanma18]

So Yujiro vs Hayato when?

The real fight will be after the upgrades. @Earl isn't sure when he can get to them because of exams, but they'll be done eventually

The main problem isn't getting the upgrades. It's whether it'll be fair post upgrades. As he may gain some passive aura hax, which may or may not turn this into a stomp.
@Baki

Well it's nothing directly quantifiable nor impressivly skillful. Start of series Siegfried was Middle Class disciple, so i'd say mid class disciple is where they would stand. Middle class disciple is your classical "good but either lack of feats, or gets fodderized by the rest".

That's a good thing, because that makes most boxers in the Bakiverse roughly somewhere within Middle Class, so we can work up from there, like where Kaiohs and master Kaiohs place, to people like Doppo and Shibukawa, to people like Baki, Kaku, and Musashi, to finally Yujiro

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Just to clarify. Not "middle class". Middle disciple class. So basically 1 class above bottom.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Just to clarify. Not "middle class". Middle disciple class. So basically 1 class above bottom.

Right, right. These guys aren't exactly bottom of the barrel per say, but, well, Middle disciples are 2nd to last on the totem pole, and Smokin Joe had 1 fight and lost, as well as Ali having 2 fights and horrendously lost one and only one the other because his son had been beaten within an inch of his life 3 times in a row and then fought Ali. Then of course there's Rickson Gracie with the 700-0 record, so all either bottom of the barrel stuff or close to it, a foundation if you will

 

[BakiHanma18]

Moving right along then, my next question: as some who scales up from Joe, Rickson, and Ali individually and has been fighting people like them and becoming bored of it for 7 years with no losses, where would Sam Atlas end up? I'm thinking low end High Disciple or high end Mid Disciple at the very least, as how much higher he scales from someone like Ali is unquantifiable, but what would you venture to say the max is, given his scaling and feats?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Without anything concrete on how much better he is it's gonna stay on Mid Disciple still. Mid Disciples can stomp other mid disciples ez diff so...

 

[BakiHanma18]

Without anything concrete on how much better he is it's gonna stay on Mid Disciple still. Mid Disciples can stomp other mid disciples ez diff so...

So at max he's likely the higher end of Mid Disciple? If so, I can work with that

 

[BakiHanma18]

Just to kind of keep track of the discussion so far in case I have anything incorrect,

Sam Atlas would be a higher end Mid Disciple class, scaling above Ali, who we agree is roughly middle Mid Disciple, who created a martial art based on boxing that is better than it and is comparable to the 4,000 year old Kempo and who is the world's best boxer, who scales above someone like Alexander Gallen, a wrestler on par with other Maximum Tournament fighters, all of who are above world class athletes and master martial artist, or Morio Sonada, a fighter more accomplished than boxing Champion Yuri Chakovsky, who in turn would scale above someone like Chiharu Shiba who, while not skilled in the traditional sense, created an entire style based on injuring or damaging his own body to do far worse to the opponent. To do this and still be not only alive, but be able to continue fighting shows an extreme level of knowledge of not only the physical limits of both his body and the opponents, but the knowledge of fighting to know what parts of his body are worth breaking in exchange for a certain part of his opponent's body in order to cause maximum impact while mitigating his disadvantage as much as possible, scaling him to being comparable to lower in skill than most Maximum Tournament fighters, but still above the likes of average Martial Arts masters, at the very least average Martial Artists (an example of skill in "Chiharuism" or "Chiharu-Dou" would be when Baki used it against him to not only fracture his own skull head butting Chiharu's leg as he attempted to kick, breaking Chiharu's leg, but he also rammed his eyes into Chiharu's fingers at massively high speeds when Chiharu "attempted" to poke his eyes out (though he didn't actually intend to eye-poke Baki), leaving his eyes relatively unharmed, but breaking both of Chiharu's fingers).

If we are in agreement with this, we can continue

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah sure, higher end mid class disciple is fine.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Yeah sure, higher end mid class disciple is fine.

Right on. I've got a few more questions, but I'd like to make sure you don't have any questions of your own so far. Anything I can help you with, or are you good for now?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Im good.

Not like i care about the feats of anything middle class

 

[BakiHanma18]

Almost done putting the finishing touches on some skill feats here, sorry it's taking a while

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Sure don't worry.

 

[KGiffoni]

@KG
2. Well Yujiro's stuck to that feat, for lacking better feats on his own so...

3. No, because usually the only people "stronger" are at least 2 classes above yours so. If he fights someone stronger it'll usually be against a master class who'll be massively more skilled too. There's nothing along the lines of "fighting someone thousands of times stronger in Kenichi. But there are a ton of fighting someone significantly stronger.

4. Well It's not just that. Applications matter too. Said reflection works against grabs, multiple opponents etc etc. Just because it can reflect stronger attacks doesn't make it better by default.

5. Huh? When? Since when is relaxation ki based?

6. Stopping the flow of ki kills on a cellular level.

8. No, analytical prediction can happen for various reasons. You don't assume any form of info analysis unless specifically stated. So kenichi greatly takes this.

11. It's taking measures against every possible move. But that's for Dou types. Sei types like kenichi can predict by knowing the opponent's hearts and feelings, thinking like his opponents. Can read the movements of an opponent for as long as he maintains eye contact or is touching the opponent. Or even the small vibrations of his body. etc

12. I mean it's a better Sangan in every way, what's there to argue? And if it's body control you want then this might be interesting.

Can create an axis in the middle of his body which allows his left and right side to act separately to the point of being even capable of saying 2 sentences at the same time . And even controling the direction of his sound so that no one else but his target can hear it.

2. Not really, and even then, Xiao Lee >>>>>> that stuff 13yo Baki did. The norm is that anything Baki does, specially 13yo Baki, unless stated something only he can do, Yujiro can as well.

3. Well, if we go by the "fighting someone stronger" thing, Doppo, Goki Shibukawa, Kaku Kaioh, Baki himself, all fought people who could one-shot them.

4. That's true, however we're debating skill here. Which ones needs more skill to be used? That's what we should be debating here.

5. I was refering to Offensive XiaoLee, that part is ki manip. Defensive XiaoLee is the body relaxation stuff.

6. I don't really see what part of this is pressure points tho.

8. While that's true, Analytical Prediction is basically Precognition via Information Analysis + lots of skill. What you're arguing is the information analysis part, and if we go into that territory, Kaku Kaioh can identify your fighting style by glancing at you and Yujiro has that IA of his i think you're already familiar with.

11. Some secondary characters from the first manga had feats similar to these. While these precognitions have different levels of information analysis, in the end Baki's feats of the prediction part are better.

12. X amp being better than Y amp doesn't necessarily say that amp X needs more skill than amp Y.


Well, Baki can dislocate and fix his shoulder joints at will, and Kaku can do the same with his jaw to minimize the damage of certain hits. Xiao Lee needs for you to train until you make your body, that is naturally stiff, handle attacks like a feather. You have, on Kaku's own words, "leave your body behind, escape from it, and make your body have the flexibility of a feather". As i've said, it needs more than a century of training to fully master. Then there's Doppo's sangan that is also body control but i'd say not as good.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

2. Yeah but they lack any better feats.

3. All of which were people significantly less skilled, which is the oposite of what happens in Kenichiverse.

4. You can't quantify superhuman skill, you can barely quantify human skill. That's why we go with the "which would be more useful in a 1v1 situation".

5. That is also relaxation + strengthening, but Xiao Lee's getting revised soon, so i guess arguing too much on this point is useless.

6. Ki manip. Another girl could chi manip into pulverizing people.

8. Both of them pale in comparison really. Noticing the fighting style from a glance is the most basic of basics in kenichiverse.

11. Hardly.

12. Yeah but you can't quantify that, and in combat it would plainly be better.

Not all that impressive compared to Hayato.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Bump.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Bump.

Sorry, I'm almost done. I've got like 3 high tiers in skill left to place and feats to grab for them. It gets kind of hard to differentiate between strength and speed, and skill higher up

 

[BakiHanma18]

Finally done. To kinda give a better picture of where we are, I'll start at the very bottom. Ryuji Tokura is a character in Baki that is literally so unskilled, a lack of skill is listed as a weakness on his page on this site. Richard Filth would scale slightly above this, as he has fairly marginal skill in fighting, but has definitely been carried to Maximum Tournament levels by his strength and durability. Zulu scales above him, as he's deemed in both mindset and fighting style to be on par with an animal also scaling above normal people and entering combat fighters and martial artists territory. Next, we have Chiharu, who we discussed earlier. He'd scale roughly lower than world class fighters, champions, and higher end martial artists, possibly masters. Yuri, Morio, and Gallen, all discussed earlier, are the baseline for champions and martial arts masters like we'd see in real life. Then we get to Ali and Sam Atlas, the peak of professional fighting in the Bakiverse. Now, we can finally get to the ~mid tiers, of which there are quite a few.

 

[BakiHanma18]

To start at the bottom of the barrel of mid tiers, Sikorsky not only scales above all of the prior mentioned fighters in basic combat skills, but he has a special technique he invented where he is able to cut people just by precisely angling his knuckles. I'm thinking he'd still be Mid Disciple, as he doesn't scale much higher in overall combat skill than the low-tiers, and while the knuckle cutting technique is impressive, compared to the others in the Bakiverse, it's just a neat trick, so I suspect it's not that impressive compared to the Kenichiverse either

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Kenichi could cut people with his hands when he was still a mid class disciple so eh....

 

[BakiHanma18]

Kenichi could cut people with his hands when he was still a mid class disciple so eh....

Yeah, I figured as much lol. Aight, moving on to someone kinda worth their salt I guess

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Just to give the scan for when that happened.

Changed his style into Shigure which allowed him to cut things using his bare hands.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Even amongst the fighters at the Maximum Tournament, all of which are top tier martial arts masters and champion athletes, Jack Hanma was a stand-out, being able to out maneuver many brilliant fighters, though he spent the majority of his time bullying other fighters with his superior strength and speed. Despite this, he does have some fairly impressive showings of feats in that, as a pit fighter with no formal training, he was still able to pick up a martial arts technique like Nukite. He was also able to pick up the basics of Aiki after fighting Shibukawa.. It's such a difficult martial art to learn that only 10 people in the last 100 years have mastered it, and only one of them was able to use it in combat (also the only person to ever do so). Jack, again despite no martial arts training, was able to apply Aiki in combat after only fighting it once. He was also able to develop a hard counter to Aiki: the Bite, showing that his level of understanding of the art superpasses just mimicking moves, showing that he has a conceptual understanding of Aiki and it's properties.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Just to give the scan for when that happened.
Changed his style into Shigure which allowed him to cut things using his bare hands.

Thanks for this btw, I was wondering after the fact how exactly he does it, but figured it would just derail to ask and that we'd moved passed the feat

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I mean most of them get AP stomped by Jack so an eh feat at most. Understanding the basics of a style is nothing that impressive. And the counter he invented was a no brainer. He can reflect attacks, but what happens if i bite? It wasn't some complex counter.

 

[KGiffoni]

It was more like "huh, biting is working and this is one of my main moves, guess i'll do that from now on". It's really not a skill feat

 

[Firephoenixearl]

The man took the calcium for his bones regularly.