Skill Debate: Yujiro vs Hayato

[BakiHanma18]

Setting all the joints back to normal is more strength than skill cus it's from the muscles tensing so much they put the joint back together, but yes people can do that in Kenichi.

Well, that's actually why I asked in this particular case: Katsumi wasn't fighting someone weaker, he was fighting someone massively stronger, to the point that it was mentioned 3 separate times that Katsumi physically just didn't cut it in terms of strength (was unprepared for this level of strength and determination, was extensively damaged, etc)

Alright, next up for feats:

• Uses his special technique the Mach Punch, in which Katsumi punches so fast that his fists break the sound barrier, to defeat Hanayama

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It is just his fastest punch. And it's just creating more speed by twisting it, nothing too insane. Boxers like Takeda had "Illusionary Left" back when he was arguably not even Mid Class disciple, a punch so fast it was invisible to everyone else.

 

[BakiHanma18]

It is just his fastest punch. And it's just creating more speed by twisting it, nothing too insane. Boxers like Takeda had "Illusionary Left" back when he was arguably not even Mid Class disciple, a punch so fast it was invisible to everyone else.

It's not twisting, Mach Punch: Katsumi aligns his joints perfectly to deliever a punch or punches that break the sound barrier.

Moving FTE to someone and moving FTE to several people faster than you while being able to destroy someone stronger than you is quite different

 

[Firephoenixearl]

When was mach punch FTE to people faster than Katsumi? And destroying someone stronger than him never happened, Katsumi was weaker than Hanayama but it took him dozens of mach punches to eventually put him down. It's just his strongest punch.

 

[BakiHanma18]

https://youtu.be/HY-ot-ClxkY Katsumi v Hanayama: outspeed and surprised at 2:10, absolutely demolished him with the attack, 4:20 Katsumi attempts a block and gets annihilated again, 4:30 Katsumi even uses a technique to try to block, Hanayama breaks through and rocks him, 5:15 Katsumi literally curled up vomiting, 5:25 Katsumi quickly grabs Hanayama in (judging by the distressed look on Katsumi's face) a last ditch effort to not get destroyed, 5:45 Katsumi Judo flips Hanayama and RUNS AWAY, around 6:30 ish is able to get off a combo and dodge a few attacks that do some decent damage as Baki then explains it was a matter of the technique used and the placement of the hits (aka skill), then at around 7:30 ish, Katsumi is again unable to completely block Hanayama's hits so he narrowly avoids his follow-up and using Quadruple Median Line Strike, a move that strikes pressure points to allow for (even as Katsumi's page says) Durability Negation, only further implying that Hanayama is leagues above him in strength, at around 8:00, Hanayama catches Katsumi with Vice Grip, Hanayama is finally starting to get winded after taking 2 techniques that in one way or another neg durability, we see at about 9:40 that, while Katsumi can affect Hanayama with his attacks, he can very easily shrug them off and deal way more damage in return, at about 10:40 Katsumi even almost loses or briefly loses consciousness, and then proceeds to get utterly annihilated until PIS cheers him back into the fight. Katsumi then kicks Hanayama right in the face with barely any result, Katsumi proceeds to blitz Hanayama with like 50 arm joint punches before he can even react and does more damage in that same combo as he's done throughout most of the fight. He finally finishes off Hanayama with a full joint Mach Punch. To clarify one thing: Mach Punch is an amp in both speed and power. He's able to blitz Hanayama who is consistently trading blows with him with them reacting to each other's attacks until the use of that technique, as well as characters like Baki using it to blitz the much faster Jack. By that same token, Mach Punch also allows Katsumi to devastate the same Hanayama that steamrolled the shit out of him so hard Katsumi spent the majority of the fight running, on his back, or vomiting, and same goes for Jack and Baki

 

[BakiHanma18]

Also, to revisit the Yasha v Katsumi fight, I feel as though I was to quick to disregard it. After rewatching the fight itself, it's quite clear that while Katsumi likely has better speed and stats, everyone watching recognizes the skill required to dominate the strongest animal on the planet to this degree https://youtu.be/bnNemPfB8OM

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Not outspeed, he was surprised, he noticed the attack to late so he did not have time to dodge. As for blocking well in terms of punching you don't outdo Hanayama.

Idk what the rest are trying to prove, we already know Hanayama is superior in AP so what's the point?

Katsumi deals some pretty good damage even makes Hanayama bleed and it has nothing to do with "dealt damage cus of where it struck", he struck the solar plexus in order to use it as footing not for damage and a basic elbow to the face made Hanayama bleed, so Mach Punch is not a stat amp.

Yeah the QMS, he managed to make Hanayama feel pain, even though even basic kicks were doing the same.

9:40 yes Hanayama can deal damage, but so can Katsumi. It's just that Hanayama can deal more damage.

"Procedes to blitz with 50 punches" No...just absolutely not. That is not what's called a blitz, he just did a barrage of attacks, Hanayama had no time to counterattack in between because he was getting continuously hit, he sure as hell wasn't getting anymore blitzed than he already was previously.

"Mach Punch Strength Amp" Are you seriously saying that? Hanayama, the dude who bled with an elbow to the face, tanked 50 of those mach punches and you say "strength amp"?

Just no dude, no to everything, you have very loose definitions for "stat amps", "speed amps", "blitz" etc.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Not outspeed, he was surprised, he noticed the attack to late so he did not have time to dodge. As for blocking well in terms of punching you don't outdo Hanayama.
Idk what the rest are trying to prove, we already know Hanayama is superior in AP so what's the point?

Katsumi deals some pretty good damage even makes Hanayama bleed and it has nothing to do with "dealt damage cus of where it struck", he struck the solar plexus in order to use it as footing not for damage and a basic elbow to the face made Hanayama bleed, so Mach Punch is not a stat amp.

Yeah the QMS, he managed to make Hanayama feel pain, even though even basic kicks were doing the same.

9:40 yes Hanayama can deal damage, but so can Katsumi. It's just that Hanayama can deal more damage.

"Procedes to blitz with 50 punches" No...just absolutely not. That is not what's called a blitz, he just did a barrage of attacks, Hanayama had no time to counterattack in between because he was getting continuously hit, he sure as hell wasn't getting anymore blitzed than he already was previously.

"Mach Punch Strength Amp" Are you seriously saying that? Hanayama, the dude who bled with an elbow to the face, tanked 50 of those mach punches and you say "strength amp"?

Just no dude, no to everything, you have very loose definitions for "stat amps", "speed amps", "blitz" etc.

The bell rang with them both walking away, yet Katsumi barely had time to turn around while Hanayama had jumped, positioned himself for the kick, and was already landing at the time. At the very least it again proves they are comparable in speed

Katsumi barely does any damage throughout the entire fight until the Mach Punch comes out, giving him all of what amounts to a nose bleed, and it's stated countless times through the entire run of Baki that the Solar Plexus is a weak spot, Doppo says it all the time, it was mentioned in the Kaioh tournament, etc. Mach Punch is a stat amp

No, Hanayama was very clearly shrugging them off, and again QMLS is dura neg. If Katsumi was so easily damaging Hanayama conventionally, why was he the only person Katsumi uses Pressure Points on in the entire tournament?

Yes, massively more, with Katsumi running away, throwing up, and getting knocked on his ass several times throughout. Katsumi's damage was negligible until he basically got a free elbow to Hanayama's face (which it's even stated in Mount Toba v Baki that the face is a weak spot for stronger opponents, a place were you can do some damage that actually matters) and decided to dura neg.

If they were comparable instead of normal hits, Hanayama could've easily powered through them like we see him do almost directly after the tournament against Spec and Apnea Rush

Not just me. KG, Amlad, and even Prom just discussed the fact that Mach Punch is an amp in speed, and it's very clearly an amp in power

Mach Punch is 100% a speed and power amp, and it's very clearly shown to be in that fight

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Not just in Baki, the solar plexus is a weak spot on the human body is a weak spot. Hitting someone in the solar plexus with enough force can cause serious seizures, so I'll have to side with Baki on that one.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Not just in Baki, the solar plexus is a weak spot on the human body is a weak spot. Hitting someone in the solar plexus with enough force can cause serious seizures, so I'll have to side with Baki on that one.

I wasn't sure if that being a weak spot was real or some more Baki shenanigans. Glad to know about that at least

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Katsumi didn't have time cus he was taking a stroll back. A thing Hanayama didn't do. That proves nothing on scaling.

It is a weak spot, but it's not the solar plexus hit that did the damage it was the elbow which visibly made him bleed. Yes, Katsumi can easily hurt Hanayama, Hanayama can just endure a lot of hits (pain resistance). And no, a single hit was in the solar plexus, the rest were basic hits, even a mach punch to the solar plexus didn't put him down.

No he wasn't he was visibly bleeding and hurting from the basic kicks to the knee and stuff.

Yes i don't think anyone said Katsumi deals more damage than Hanayama so idk what's the argument here. Dude not everything is "dura neg", most of the human body is a weak spot. The nose, the jaw, the solar plexus, the side, the kidney etc etc.

I'll need you to show me Hanayama powering through Katsumi's normal barrage punches. Don't bring up other opponent's creates false equivalency due to difference in stats.

It's as much of a speed amp as a whip amps at the end of the lash, it is stat amp in the sense of "faster" but not actual speed amp. As for Strength amp absolutely not, it is more powerful than his casual punches due to being faster, but nothing enough to be called "strength amp".

As for the rest if we're gonna result to this kind of arguments well:

Takeda's Illuisonary left is invisible to comparable people and massively more powerful than his right hand punch.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Katsumi didn't have time cus he was taking a stroll back. A thing Hanayama didn't do. That proves nothing on scaling.
It is a weak spot, but it's not the solar plexus hit that did the damage it was the elbow which visibly made him bleed. Yes, Katsumi can easily hurt Hanayama, Hanayama can just endure a lot of hits (pain resistance). And no, a single hit was in the solar plexus, the rest were basic hits, even a mach punch to the solar plexus didn't put him down.

No he wasn't he was visibly bleeding and hurting from the basic kicks to the knee and stuff.

Yes i don't think anyone said Katsumi deals more damage than Hanayama so idk what's the argument here. Dude not everything is "dura neg", most of the human body is a weak spot. The nose, the jaw, the solar plexus, the side, the kidney etc etc.

I'll need you to show me Hanayama powering through Katsumi's normal barrage punches. Don't bring up other opponent's creates false equivalency due to difference in stats.

It's as much of a speed amp as a whip amps at the end of the lash, it is stat amp in the sense of "faster" but not actual speed amp. As for Strength amp absolutely not, it is more powerful than his casual punches due to being faster, but nothing enough to be called "strength amp".

As for the rest if we're gonna result to this kind of arguments well:

Takeda's Illuisonary left is invisible to comparable people and massively more powerful than his right hand punch.

His movement speed and reaction speed aren't correlated. He strolls, yes, but the bell rang at the same time for both of them, yet in the time it took Katsumi to simply turn around, Hanayama had done all of what he had done

The hit to the SP opened him up, and he used the (again) weak spot of his face, which Baki v Mount Toba already outlined the face as a weak spot for weaker opponents to hurt stronger opponents (now noticing most of the attacks that even did anything save for any attack to pressure points are to the face)

A slight nose bleed to the weak spot of the face vs vomiting, running away, and passing out

The argument I'm making is that he does not show once to do sufficient damage to stun Hanayama like he did with Mach Punch or take him out like he did with a full power Mach Punch until he uses the move, and not only is QMLS literally listed as dura neg, but it's attacking the pressure points, unless pressure points are somehow not dura neg?

Hanayama v Spec is a better example as Soec and Hanayama are closer in strength, but aside from that, in this fight alone there are like 4 different times where Katsumi hits him and Hanayama's already attacking before Katsumi even recovers from attacking in the first place

Its faster than any of Katsumi's normal movements and everyone agreed that it's a big enough difference in speed to warrant a separate speed stat on his page. Everything in that fight says otherwise

So it's basically the same thing as a full on Mach Punch?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

No no no dude. We're running into the same problems as the Ikki vs Yujiro. You use the weirdest stuff to make 2 characters comparable in speed. When katsumi turned around he just saw a man falling on him nothing more, nothing less. Not a way to make the 2 comparable when Katsumi took another chill step and did a chill turn when the opponent did not do such a thing.

Yes, and there are several other places he was hit like knees and stuff. And he tanked 50 Mach Punches so yeah...

Hanayama does more damage yes.

Mach Punches only stunned Hanayama cus he threw 50 freaking punches at him.

The examples in that fight would be?

I severely disagree with the "speed amp cus its fast", it's a faster move, that's about it. We don't give a guy "speed amp" if he has a move that launches lightning simply because "it's faster than his other moves".

Pretty much, one of his fav moves, it's faster than anyone can see and stronger than anything else, you don't see me calling it a stat amp, because it's not, it's just a faster and stronger move than his usual ones.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Regardless of this one instance, throughout the entire fight, despite Hanayama taking massive swings and reeling back for most of his hits, they are of roughly comparable speed

And those other hits did next to nothing, as opposed to 1 punch to the stomach inducing major vomiting. And he very clearly didn't tank anything there. Either those Mach Punches brough him from decently damaged to "one good hit left" level damage, or those punches didn't do that much damage and that last punch did massive damage (I'd be more inclined to go with the former)

Yes, the difference in strength isn't along the lines of Yujiro v Doppo or even Jack v Baki, but it does definitely look to be about the same difference as Baki v Mount Toba

It doesn't just stun him, it brought him within an inch of his life, and I counted roughly 144 punches, and it only took 72 to stun him

Spec is using Apnea Rush which strikes so fast in such little time, there's essentially 0 room to counter, so Hanayama just tanks the punches and counter while getting hit. Spec is shown to be a lot close to Hanayama than Katsumi by virtue of Spec actually trading blows with Hanayama throughout some of the fight as opposed to being badly damaged after a couple of hits (though Hanayama turns out to be the stronger of the two in both fights)

Its considered a speed amp because by using this move, characters that use it are able to attack faster than their fasts normal punches and kicks. It is even blatantly shown when the Hitless Blow enters the series (the True Mach Punch) and it amps power and speed to an insane degree

If it's faster than he can actually attack normally, then the attack's speed is amplified as opposed to the user's normal speed, or a stat amp in short

 

[Firephoenixearl]

A stat amp means to "increase one or all stats of every move" not just having a faster punch. My punch is faster than my run. It isn't stat amp though, it's just that X move has a higher speed which should just be noted in the profile speed as "X movement speed, Y attack speed with Z move".

 

[BakiHanma18]

A stat amp means to "increase one or all stats of every move" not just having a faster punch. My punch is faster than my run. It isn't stat amp though, it's just that X move has a higher speed which should just be noted in the profile speed as "X movement speed, Y attack speed with Z move".

Statistics Amplificationis when a character raises their parameters in the middle of a fight, and this is not related to their base form or some sort of "hidden power" that has been hidden or held back. These boosts are usually temporary andare specific to one or a number of statistics.

^ Mach Punch increases his speed so it would be a stat amp

and that example still doesn't work because Mach Punch allows him to punch faster than he can normally punch

 

[Firephoenixearl]

My best punch is also faster than my normal punches.

But anyway i might bring it up in a CRT at some point for it to have separated speed, let's move on for now. Better feats for Katsumi. Even low to middle class disciples can replicate that.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Bump

 

[BakiHanma18]

Alright, this next one is a bit of scaling, but it's to Baki people we've already placed. I will also include a feat, including a feat and new scaling because this is no longer BoS Katsumi

So, as far as scaling:

• Is defeated in one hit by Retsu due to his injuries, only to fight Retsu to a draw not long after (the same Retsu that is considered impressive by terms of Kaiohs, who all scale massively above initates who are the ones that use shockwaves to put out candles, can return force so precisely and exactly that if a wave of water is sent to them over a distance, they can return it to its point of origin with the exact same amount of force, and can carve a boulder into a perfect sphere with punches and kicks
• Gets brutalized by Dorian, only to beat him within an inch of his life shortly after, the same Dorian that (at the time) scaled slightly above Retsu in skill
• Beats Doyle tens, possibly hundreds of times, sometimes back to back, casually within 1 or 2 hits

after we've discussed this scaling and its placement, we can get into the meat and potatoes of what may be Katsumi's best feat

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Let's get to the meat and potatoes. Scaling is useless without feats.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Let's get to the meat and potatoes. Scaling is useless without feats.

Alright, one thing I found before we get to the best feat that was actually kinda impressive,

• To beat Pickle, Katsumi trains with Retsu. Retsu trains with Katsumi and teaches him everything he knows, and Katsumi uses this to refine his own Karate (the 501st year of Karate), making Katsumi's fighting style the product of 4,501 years of refining martial arts (Chinese Kempo: 4,000 years, and Karate: 501 years)

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Again mostly scaling but this time its wrong. Pretty suer Katsumi isn't better at Chinese kenpo than Retsu or Kaku Kaioh. If he were the his would be the product of 4000 years of chinese Kenpo.

 

[Obscenly]

but can't Yujiro like copy the entire Kenichiverses Martial arts?

 

[BakiHanma18]

but can't Yujiro like copy the entire Kenichiverses Martial arts?

I don't see why not

 

[BakiHanma18]

Again mostly scaling but this time its wrong. Pretty suer Katsumi isn't better at Chinese kenpo than Retsu or Kaku Kaioh. If he were the his would be the product of 4000 years of chinese Kenpo.

In combat skill, they are roughly comparable, though I suppose it's a moot point because Yujiro is better at their respective martial arts and knows all of them

 

[Obscenly]

Also, wasn't it agreed upon by several people that Yujiro is one of the if not the most skilled character on this wiki?

 

[00potato]

Also, wasn't it agreed upon by several people that Yujiro is one of the if not the most skilled character on this wiki?

Not an argument. Wiki members are not reliable sources and can't be used in a debate like this.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Also, wasn't it agreed upon by several people that Yujiro is one of the if not the most skilled character on this wiki?

Yes, but this is actually for that thread, to decide if Hayato should be placed higher

 

[Obscenly]

Also, wasn't it agreed upon by several people that Yujiro is one of the if not the most skilled character on this wiki?

Yes, but this is actually for that thread, to decide if Hayato should be placed higher

Oh fr, I see, I just started watching Kenichi, didn't read it, but as far as I know Hayato is skilled af, but Yujiro has mastered every martial art, and this martial art Hayato made that Earl was talking about should be able to be casually copied by Yujiro with a single glance, and completely mastered, yes?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Anyway, let's skip to the best Katsumi feats @Baki.

@Obscenly

Well that falls under what we call "NLF". Just because he knows every martial arts in verse doesn't mean he can copy everything Hayato can do, because he would not be able to copy something more skilled than himself.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Anyway, let's skip to the best Katsumi feats @Baki.
@Obscenly

Well that falls under what we call "NLF". Just because he knows every martial arts in verse doesn't mean he can copy everything Hayato can do, because he would not be able to copy something more skilled than himself.

Alright, the big boi of Katsumi's kit:

• Katsumi trains with Kaku Kaioh and creates the Hitless Blow, which, using values on this site, makes him 10x faster and over 600x stronger, being called the ultimate relaxation and flexibility in his muscles when delivering the punches.

and as far as his copying ability, what @Obscenly is referring to is that Yujiro is able to copy any martial art at a glance, in that while he knows all martial arts, it's questionable whether or not he knew Xiao-Lee, so he either didn't know it and instantly mastered a martial art that takes 129 years to master or he already knew it as part of knowing all martial arts. Regardless, Baki invents a martial art style called the Imagination Style, and after seeing it once, Yujiro not only masters it, but he does it even better than Baki

Edit: also, iirc, the only reason he knows all martial arts is because of his copy ability (or at least martial arts like Udonde, as it wouldn't be possible for him to learn it outside of copying it from a royal descendant or books about it)

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

It's more likely that Yujiro knew about Xiao-Lee, but didn't know about it's abilities until he met Kaku. At least that's how I saw the conflicting statement.

 

[BakiHanma18]

It's more likely that Yujiro knew about Xiao-Lee, but didn't know about it's abilities until he met Kaku. At least that's how I saw the conflicting statement.

That's sounds about right, I can see that, especially because when he saw Kaku use it, he even says something along the lines of "That's Xiao-Lee! I knew it" or something

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Those are wiki multipliers which are obviously not acceptable but i'll give you something similar.

Mikumo Kushinada who is Advanced Grand Master (the 2nd highest rank), has a disciple. That disciple is a 13 or so year old girl with a small body, yet she goes around desimating people way beyond her league physically casually (people who should be more or less comparable to kenichi in stats).

The style is called Kushinada Style:

When most people use 30% skill and 70% skill in techniques, she uses an absolute 100% skill and 0% strength.

So he would sit still in the High Class Disciple.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Those are wiki multipliers which are obviously not acceptable but i'll give you something similar.
Mikumo Kushinada who is Advanced Grand Master (the 2nd highest rank), has a disciple. That disciple is a 13 or so year old girl with a small body, yet she goes around desimating people way beyond her league physically casually (people who should be more or less comparable to kenichi in stats).

The style is called Kushinada Style:

When most people use 30% skill and 70% skill in techniques, she uses an absolute 100% skill and 0% strength.

So he would sit still in the High Class Disciple.

The physical difference between Katsumi and Pickle is High 8-C to 7-C, yet he's able to, and I quote, "bring Pickle to his knees for the first time in history" as well as allow the Hypersonic Katsumi hit at a High Hypersonic+ speed

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

I wouldn't call that a multiplier really, that just means Katsumi has an attack that's 7-C.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yes but those numbers are just where you (by you i mean the Baki community) think they stand, not where they actually stand. That's the reason we do not take multipliers unless it's a stated number with good proof (if above 10x).

 

[BakiHanma18]

To give it context outside of VS Battle Wiki, Katsumi is normally weaker than Baki who in turn is shown to be massively weaker than Pickle, only beating him with skill and similar speed, the same Pickle who's been shown to be about as strong as Yujiro who's stronger than anyone inverse

that said, this is roughly how that fight went with this technique involved

• When fighting Pickle, Katsumi's attacks are shown to be ineffective at first, but once Katsumi unleashes his improved Mach Punch , Pickle is brought to his knees for the first time in history.
• When Pickle prepares for his final attack, Katsumi unveils his Hitless Blow and seemingly defeats the prehistoric warrior.
• The move does have a downside in that it destroys the users arms due to not having the durability to withstand the breaking of the sound barrier at the speed with this force, though this weakness does not extend to Yujiro, as he was able to break the sound barrier with more force at slightly slower speeds effortlessly with no backlash during his fight with Baki
• Despite being massively weaker and slower, Pickle respected Katsumi so much that he let him live after Katsumi passed out due to destroying his arms, having Pickle rip one off, and bleeding out.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

He hurt him with a Mach Punch too? Besides Hitless Blow? It just shows they aren't that far appart then. But eh, anyway, useless point, wiki multipliers and that's still not giving him a pass from High Class Disciple.

 

[BakiHanma18]

He hurt him with a Mach Punch too? Besides Hitless Blow? It just shows they aren't that far appart then. But eh, anyway, useless point, wiki multipliers and that's still not giving him a pass from High Class Disciple.

The improved Mach Punch also has a 7-C rating, however the improved Mach Punch and the Hitless Blow both fall under the category of True Mach Punch, so they are still worlds apart. I don't think it's a useless point that Katsumi can almost take down someone massively stronger than himself due to this technique