Skill Debate: Yujiro vs Hayato

[BakiHanma18]

He is shaking him though. He first twists his body (to gain momentum), then twists the other way around so that Baki becomes unable to hang on from the back and is actually taken by the momentum and rotated with it.
It's not skill, it's just him being much stronger.

I'm not understanding how that is just strength. You clearly understand what's happening, as you are describing it accurately, but I'm failing to understand how it's only strength, do you mind explaining? After we discuss this, we can move on to the next skill feat, which this next one is quite impressive

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Because it's not some tricky technique. It works because "Yujiro can twist hard enough to make Baki lose his grip around him". If baki were stronger, he would have been able to keep holding on, since that is not the case he is carried by the momentum.

Basically the same thing you do to a fly on your knuckle. You shake your knuckle. Since the fly cannot hold on to that, she goes away. Doesn't work against things which are about as strong as you.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Because it's not some tricky technique. It works because "Yujiro can twist hard enough to make Baki lose his grip around him". If baki were stronger, he would have been able to keep holding on, since that is not the case he is carried by the momentum.
Basically the same thing you do against a fly on your knuckle. You shake your knuckle. Since the fly cannot hold on to that, she goes away. Doesn't work against things which are about as strong as you.

Ahhhh okay, yeah, I get that. Alright, I'll take the liberty of dismissing this one as a strength feat and move on to the impressive one. I'm about to head to my first class, so my responses might stop for awhile, but I'll try to get back to this whenever I can

 

[BakiHanma18]

Yujiro was able to chop off the face of a 100 year old Kung-Fu master

Now, your point about "master" really being a verse by verse thing is true, so, for some context on the individual he was able to entirely outclass here, Ryo Kaioh, I have some videos

The first Kaiohs were able to make the fighting style "Pankeration" go extinct

Also, just to become a Kaioh candidate, one must punch and kick a boulder into a perfect sphere and extinguish the flame of a candle with the wind from your punches from several feet away. Also, as you can see, Retsu, one of Ryo's students, was able to carve "a magnificent boulder".

One of Ryo's students, Dorian, the first man from the west to become a Kaioh, was able to complete the boulder challenge, except instead of carving a boulder, he carved a tunnel through a mountain in 1 night

Another requirement to qualify as a Kaioh is extreme control over the transfer of kinetic energy as well as muscle control (and another look at Dorian's work as well)

Ryo scales not only above Dorian and Retsu by virtue of being their master (only being surpassed by Retsu after he begins his learning under Kaku), but he is, with his almost 100 years of experience, one of the most skilled Kaiohs alive, the same Kaiohs who, just to be considered for the position, you must be able to do the aforementioned feats, above every other Kaioh with the exception of Kaku, as Han, possibly Li, and Retsu all scale to each other by virtue of Han and Li being comparable and Han and Retsu begin picked for Kaku's personal team in the China v America-Japan team. Now, Kaku scales massively above Ryo, but Ryo scales above every other Kaioh

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Hmm? That's skill? He ripped off the face of a much weaker dude, what's so impressive?

 

[BakiHanma18]

Hmm? That's skill? He ripped off the face of a much weaker dude, what's so impressive?

How skilled the individual was, the fact that the speed difference isn't actually that much, the fact that Yujiro was able to to complete the clean rip without Ryo being able to do anything to save himself or mitigate the damage, and the fact that Yujiro did all of this casually

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I see, i get your point, but in that case his skill is rendered moot, simply by how massive the AP gap was. It's not like Yujiro used any technique at all. He just ripped his face right off. The kaku guy couldn't even use any technique against the face rip.

 

[BakiHanma18]

I see, i get your point, but in that case his skill is rendered moot, simply by how massive the AP gap was. It's not like Yujiro used any technique at all. He just ripped his face right off. The kaku guy couldn't even use any technique against the face rip.

Right, the AP gap is indeed massive, but the fact that Yujiro was both able to grab Ryo's face without him even noticing despite the small speed difference and was able to completely throw him uninterrupted and chop his face off while throwing without Ryo, with his insane skill, being able to do anything would (at least to me) indicate some level of skill involved, even if not immediately apparent

Edit: Also, while it is true Yujiro did not use a technique, he rarely does, even for his skill feats, as his mentality is that he is above human techniques, despite knowing them and using them (though he usually uses them just to show he can counter someone's techniques or to show that he can also do someone's technique, but better)

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I mean...sure, it's not an impressive feat was my point. Then i guess here is Tirawit Koki 1 shotting Kenichi (a superior opponent), because his strength is "different".

Basically he's a lot more bloodlusted so he insta killed a more skilled opponent so he developed the best strategy.

 

[BakiHanma18]

I mean...sure, it's not an impressive feat was my point. Then i guess here is Tirawit Koki 1 shotting Kenichi (a superior opponent), because his strength is "different".
Basically he's a lot more bloodlusted so he insta killed a more skilled opponent so he developed the best strategy.

And since Hayato scales above Tirawit, he should be capable of doing the same theoretically, yes? If so, the point will go to Hayato

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Tirawit is disciple class.

Hayato is Superhuman class. He's like 7 levels beyond him. Besides 1 shotting an opponent using small differences is not all that impressive.

Example, here's Hayato beating an equal opponent (in all regards), who at the time stated he had a slight advantage, simply because a baby fox bite his arm.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Alright, I think it's fair to say we've gotten through all the minor stuff, so now we can move on to the real stuff

First, a skill scale chain

Yujiro scales in skill vastly above Baki, who in turn scales vastly above Sam Atlas, the best fighter in the professional world, which would include Muhammad Ali, who created his own martial art based on boxing and is stated as having "perfected a universal martial art (boxing)" and also being stated to be the best boxer of all time, which would place him above the likes of Yuri Chakovsky, who could outskill a 13 yo Baki who had minor training with Yujiro, but more importantly, he would scale above Joe Fraiser, who was able to slip passed Retsu Kaioh's defenses (like smoke, hence the nickname "Smokin" Joe Fraiser), SOO Retsu Kaioh who scales closely (slightly above or below, possibly even matching) to Ryo Kaioh and the other Kaiohs comparable to him in NGB during the Raitai tourney, who scales above Retsu during the NGB arc, who matches Baki from the Maximum Tournament in skill, possibly higher by NGB, who should be more skilled than his Beginning of the series key, who spent several years traveling around the world defeating martial arts master, who would scale above normal martial artist, who in turn (obviously) scale above average people

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah ok good to know. I am not 100% ok with scaling above them as a composite, but since Yujiro's supposedly a master at everything, it's not wrong to scale him so fair enough.

As for Hayato do i need to mention his scaling chain?

 

[KGiffoni]

1. Each verse has different meaning for mastery. Same reason why many people can have "mastered the sword" but none can compare to ikki. Cus mastery is dependent on feats.
2. That is greatly outdone by Siegfried. Against projectiles, grabs etc. There's no comparison there.

3. Ougi only appeared once to fight hayato so outside of that, featless. Silkwat is a ball of PIS, CIS and inconsistency. So let's just say he's not got luck scaling from rivals.

As for the rest i don't know which points you're referring to/answering.

I was refering to your lines in order, ignoring the pressure points one because you seem to be debating that with Hanma18. Let me finish my points, i had to leave prematurely.

8. Wait, so the "master martial artists" can't predict moves and have to analyze all of the possible ones in order to do so? 13yo Baki could already predict the moves of people who curbstomp other extremely skilled martial artists, and that's 13yo Baki i'm talking about here. Let alone damn Yujiro.

9. Alright. These seem pretty much like the same thing so let's say they're equally valuable skill feats.

10. If we go by titles, Orochi is deemed "The sun of karate" and "god of war". Of course he's not limited to the skill of a 10th dan, i'm pretty sure Doppo would curbstomp any real-life 10th Dans lol.

11. I think i haven't made myself clear. Doppo did fall under the hypnosis, but his AP was so perfect it didn't change the fight a bit.

12. What does she mean with "purity" and "empty space" exactly?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

8. Well, that's 2 masters of the same class. And both of those were Dou types (which is strength from anger/explosive force). Whereas Sei types are the ones who can predict.

10. Yeah, that's why i mentioned the "100th dan". It's not like where he stands in verse has any meaning outside of scaling. A 3rd dan Master is considered the absolute garbage of master classes in Kenichi, yet he can take on 7 high class disciples at he same time.

11. What are you referring to with "AP"?

12. I am not sure, cus the way it is explained is differently in 2 different pages. In the previous page it says that it's the 6th sense which allows her to grasp the opponent's movement without following them with their eyes. The next chapter says it's a reaction speed amp. Though she can also do something else, Can take from her power to give to her speed.

Btw, what kind of scans were you requesting? The scans should be in my text.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Yeah ok good to know. I am not 100% ok with scaling above them as a composite, but since Yujiro's supposedly a master at everything, it's not wrong to scale him so fair enough.
As for Hayato do i need to mention his scaling chain?

Here's what I was planning: I have a scale for how Yujiro scales above every skilled character in the verse, so if you would actually like me to, I can not only better explain the chain I posted, but provide many other chains just for piece of mind.

As far as Hayato's if he has 1, it would be good to get for comparison. If he has multiple, post as many as you like, best ones first is preferable. I'll have questions because of my I unfamiliarity with the verse, but since I'll be asking questions, please don't hesitate to ask any about the Bakiverse either. I plan to go further in depth with the chain I posted earlier as well a bit later on

 

[Firephoenixearl]

2. Yet that type of "Xiao Lee" baki used doesn't even hold a candle to how effective Siegfried's version is, due to Siegfried having far better feats.

3. It's not 3v1 that's the issue. It's reflecting the attacks of 3 people attacking from 3 different directions all at once. A feat neither Xiao Lee nor Baki's spins have ever shown.

4. The only issue being, iirc, baki did get hurt quite a bit, same for Xiao Lee when retsu used it. Siegfried doesn't get hurt.

5. No....? Arrows are projectiles, not swords. The sword just got "pseudo dodged" (i'll use that term for what sieg and baki is doing) and he hit the user back. Arrows are not as easy as the user is usually at a range and arrows lack the weight to push you.

6. Scans for the? Death hax?

 

[KGiffoni]

8. I see, that makes more sense. Still, it's not that remarkable to 2nd place stuff.

10. I mean, even in real life, 3rd dans don't compare to, let's say, a 6th dan. Because the higher the dan the more time you have to train in order to do the next belt exam, and i'm talking about years here. I'm not entirely sure, but iirc, 9th to 10th dan is 10 years. Let alone 1st to 10th dan.

Yeah, simply being a "master" of a martial art won't get you anywhere in Baki as well. As i've said, 13yo Baki curbstomps people who curbstomp Rickson Gracie who is literally a BJJ red belt (highest belt you can have without being one of the original creators of BJJ).

11. Analytical Prediction.

12. But how are these achieved? What's the logical explanation behind this ability?

 

[KGiffoni]

2. Yet that type of "Xiao Lee" baki used doesn't even hold a candle to how effective Siegfried's version is, due to Siegfried having far better feats.
3. It's not 3v1 that's the issue. It's reflecting the attacks of 3 people attacking from 3 different directions all at once. A feat neither Xiao Lee nor Baki's spins have ever shown.

4. The only issue being, iirc, baki did get hurt quite a bit, same for Xiao Lee when retsu used it. Siegfried doesn't get hurt.

5. No....? Arrows are projectiles, not swords. The sword just got "pseudo dodged" (i'll use that term for what sieg and baki is doing) and he hit the user back. Arrows are not as easy as the user is usually at a range and arrows lack the weight to push you.

6. Scans for the? Death hax?

2. What are Siegfried's feats?

3. That's more like fancy dodging, Baki has the skill to do the same, doesn't seem like a notable skill feats for the magnitude of skill we're talking about here.

4. Baki got hurt because, since he had his eyes closed, he had to feel the sword and then dodge. And if you feel the sword, well, you're being hit by it, even if just sliiiiightly. Retsu only got hurt when using his Xiao Lee because it was extremely incomplete, he was against someone thousands of times stronger, who was the best swordsman of the verse. Things that usually stop cuts can't stop Musashi's, dude can literally slash mid-air tree leafs.

5. Baki isn't being pushed, he's dodging as soon as the sword touches him. Xiao Lee works against missiles, bullets, etc anyways.

6. Yeah

 

[Firephoenixearl]

2. The ones i showed you. There's also him reflecting attacks using his inner body, Can counter even whe he gets attacked by surprise. His style works against grabs too (which i cannot find the scan for right now) etc. There is also Lugh who does all of these but while being completely blind.

3. Reflecting mind you. And it is still a level of reflection Baki never had.

4. Sieg has been taken by surprise before and still countered. Lugh is completely blind and still counters without getting damage.

5. Though when did Xiao Lee work vs missiles or bullets?

6. Can use ki to shut off a pressure point on meridians temporarily which basically results in 1 hit kills for reasons explained here. Such a thing can be used on every living being.

8. Precoging all possible moves, reading thoughts, rythym and more to precog the moves that are incoming. Is actually a pretty high class ability. Remember Sasaki RoR's best ability is precisely this (a better version to be sure, but the same type of ability)

10. Yeah i know, the point was a garbage master class can basically take on 7 people who're not "master class" at the same time and lose after a very hard fight.

11. I mean, Rysui Seikuken is a similar feat, however it precogs via "thinking in their position". And the worst thing about that feat from Doppo is that, he never shows remotely comparable analytical prediction again after that and even in that fight, his analytical prediction doesn't work when the move is first used. And lastly, that is not a true illusion, it's just based on how you want the fight to go, so he was just seeing the fight happen as it would normally.

12. Can fight opponents she cannot perceive otherwise using a sixth sense which would scale to the Ryouzanpaku masters. Said sixth sense is apparently a 10x reaction/Combat speed amp??? This is all the context.

 

[KGiffoni]

2. Well yeah, being catch by surprise/doing it with your eyes closed is the same thing. And Baki does it.

3. Baki has Aiki that i can imagine working against more than 1 person if the user is skilled enough, what Baki is.

4. Wll then they're tied to 13yo Baki. They still need something else to be better.

5. Kaku states it here. I should have mentioned this when you asked for it in Ikki vs Yujiro but at the time i forgot this statement existed and it's too late now.

6. How the actual hell is that Death Manipulation? If anything it's "limited durability negation". Any pro MMA fighter can do similar with a kick to the kidneys, by instance. It's just hitting you in a way that you basically lose your body tension, relaxing your muscles, taking more damage. By instance, if i were to receive a punch to the stomach in a fight, i'd feel good pain, but tolerable. Now if i received a punch to the stomach while sleeping it'd be painful as all hell. It's no big deal. Except here the attacker is targetting chi flows, not anything physical.

8. Well, everything you said is stuff people who Yujiro upscales from do. Mainly Musashi and Baki.

10. I see.

11. Iirc there's a feat exactly like that in Baki. Anyways, Doppo massively upscales from Gaia, who could predict Baki's moves, who's AP could predict the moves of several martial arts masters, who in turn are way more skilled than Rickson Gracie. Sooo

12. I don't see how 6th sense warranties a speed amp, but whatever. Many characters in Baki have crazy 6th sense too so it's no big deal.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

2. No, lol. Baki knew it was coming, Siegfried didn't, there's a big difference.

3. Aiki is not the same as aiki still reflects with the use of hands in some way or the head. Not the same as sieg who does it with actually his inner strength without movement of the body. As for aiki, kenichi also uses the sitting technique gouki does.

4. They're beyond all forms of reflecting in the baki verse actually, not just 13 y/o baki.

5. Uhm, without feats im gonna have to say no. A style which doesnt work if it's against the wall taking on nukes seems very outlierish without feats. Especially since no matter how relax you are a missile will nuke the f outta you, cus i never heard of a feather coming out ok from tanking little boy or fat man.

6. Oh i should've likely posted the scan where kenichi states his body is dying on a cellular level from taking on that technique. Will do that tomorrow cuz I'm on the phone now, but you should be able to find it above in this thread, iirc i mentioned it to baki.

8. Since when can baki ppl read rythym, thoughts, emotions, feelings, true desires etc?

11. Doesn't really seem superior to precoging all possible moves and rysui seikuken. As for the scaling most of these feats are from disciple class which I've already explained how insignificant they are in the grand scale of things.

12. Yeah neither do i, it's a pretty messed up explanation. I just wanted to mention that kenichi characters can do both the 6th sense and the speed amps too.

 

[KGiffoni]

2. Baki had his eyes closed, he didn't know exactly when they were gonna hit him before their attacks actually connected, even if just slightly.

3. While that's true, it doesn't mean it's any less skilled. And that wasn't a sitting technique, that was more like Shibukawa being so hurt he couldn't stand up anymore thanks to all the damage he took, including having his Achilles tendon being bited off. Of course he was eventually defeated, but wasn't biting, the antithesis of Aiki, been one of Jack's signatures moves, he'd have won.

4. Why?

5. I think Kaku was refering to the actual missiles, not the explosion they do. Anyways, the bullet statement is still there. So yeah, Xiao Lee works against projectiles just the same.

6. Alright, now that somewhat warranties death manip. But where's the pressure point part? All that seems more like "i damage your ki, you start dying, thus you're weak and i can easily kill you".

8. Musashi can read thoughts, Gaia can literally visualize the movements of 13yo Baki who i don't need to introduce anymore, 18yo Baki has AP way better than that of 13yo Baki on top of being able to literally simulate an entire fight with other extremely skilled fighters, Doppo has the hypnosis feat, and Yujiro dwarfs all of them (specially 13yo Baki) in skill to a degree it's not even funny, on top of having his own AP feats.

11. Point 8

12. 6th sense comes through fighting experience i think, but we shouldn't mention the speed amps if how they happen is a mistery.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

2. He was still expecting the attack. Closing your eyes isn't off guard. It's like saying in your sleep and with your eyes closed is the same. Off guard from a blind spot yet not getting hurt and knowing the attack is coming and roughly when are not even remotely similar.

3. Not saying it's not skilled im saying Siegfried outdoes massively in the reflection regard. And it is a sitting technique. He used it because it'd be hard to stand, but it is a sitting technique.

4. Feats as I said. Massively better feats, lugh is blind and still has better reflection feats against things that either bypasses the reflections in baki or just baki has never shown.

5. Well, ugh it's easier to xiao lee missiles than normal attacks due to the weight they carry if we're overlooking the explosion. As for bullets they do pierce leaves mid air so that also seems very outlierisht but even then sieg outdoes since he can send projectiles back.

6. None of that would give cellular level death hax. And kenichi got hit in 1 spot yet his whole body started dying.

8. Yet none of them are reading the hearts, emotions, feelings, arrhythmia, old wounds etc.

11. None of those are predicting all possible moves.

12. How they happen doesn't really matter when they do happen. It just means the series is vague with explaining how it happens outside of reducing strength to increase speed

 

[BakiHanma18]

Yeah ok good to know. I am not 100% ok with scaling above them as a composite, but since Yujiro's supposedly a master at everything, it's not wrong to scale him so fair enough.
As for Hayato do i need to mention his scaling chain?

Here's what I was planning: I have a scale for how Yujiro scales above every skilled character in the verse, so if you would actually like me to, I can not only better explain the chain I posted, but provide many other chains just for piece of mind.
As far as Hayato's if he has 1, it would be good to get for comparison. If he has multiple, post as many as you like, best ones first is preferable. I'll have questions because of my I unfamiliarity with the verse, but since I'll be asking questions, please don't hesitate to ask any about the Bakiverse either. I plan to go further in depth with the chain I posted earlier as well a bit later on

Hayato's chain?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Uhhh, massive to say the least.

There are disciple classes, expert class, master class, supermaster class (and a class that i like to divide Ryouzanpaku Class, even though they are still supermasters they are far stronger than normal supermasters), advanced grandmaster class, and superhuman class.

A master class can absolutely desimate in seconds 1 Middle class Disciple, 5 very High Class Disciples and 2 Expert Class Disciples at the same time and have a basically non existent chance of losing (their chance of winning against the master class was 1/1 million). And this master class was trash even for master class levels.

A Supermaster class can literally toy with several Master class opponents. Example here is Sakaki trashing 8 Master Class opponents casually.

A Ryouzanpaku class like Shigure, held back 7 Supermaster Class opponents , and even though she's a weapons prodigy and stated by other ryouzanpaku class to be "just a maiden" without weapons. Basically toys with 3 supermaster class opponents at the same time using 1 hand while talking on the phone completely unarmed.

Then Advanced master class ppl basically laugh at these people, crushes them in moments.

And Hayato being superhuman class makes the strongest dude in advanced class just look at him and be like "i can't match you huh?".

And most of the feats i've mentioned to this point (if not all) are all from disciple or expert class.

 

[BakiHanma18]

First, I will go more in depth on Yujiro's scale chain, and then I will have questions about Hayato's.

Baki was able to completely outclass Sam Atlas to the point to where the fight was not only decided off-screen with narration from Sam Atlas post-fight, but Sam Atlas perceived Baki as a horrendous monster before fighting, but he also noticed Baki was holding back a yawn throughout their whole fight. Sam Atlas is described as being the best pound-for-pound fighter in the professional world, defending his UFC champion belt for 7 years straight to the point to where he was bored of it. Being the best fighter in the professional world would include being better than Rickson Gracie, whom I believe @KG mentioned earlier, has a 700 to 0 win streak. This also means he'd be better than Ali, who's martial art he created is deemed by virtue of Ali Jr defeating Han Kaioh with it better than higher end mid tiers or lower end high tiers of skill amongst the Kaiohs, who massively outskill even most candidates, who in turn massively outskill most world class martial artists. It is also deemed to be better than normal boxing in general by virtue of not only using it in base, but being able to tag a young Yujiro when using it, making the martial art Ali invented superior to his own boxing, which is superior to the likes of people like Joe Fraiser, who is so talented, he's seen almost emulating smoke when trying to breach someone's defenses. He was even able to make it passed Retsu, for whom you know his feats and scaling and significance of feats (= Ryo > Prime Dorian >= NGB Retsu = MT Baki >>> martial arts masters)

Do you have anything you'd like me to clear up?

 

[KGiffoni]

2. He was still expecting the attack. Closing your eyes isn't off guard. It's like saying in your sleep and with your eyes closed is the same. Off guard from a blind spot yet not getting hurt and knowing the attack is coming and roughly when are not even remotely similar.
3. Not saying it's not skilled im saying Siegfried outdoes massively in the reflection regard. And it is a sitting technique. He used it because it'd be hard to stand, but it is a sitting technique.

4. Feats as I said. Massively better feats, lugh is blind and still has better reflection feats against things that either bypasses the reflections in baki or just baki has never shown.

5. Well, ugh it's easier to xiao lee missiles than normal attacks due to the weight they carry if we're overlooking the explosion. As for bullets they do pierce leaves mid air so that also seems very outlierisht but even then sieg outdoes since he can send projectiles back.

6. None of that would give cellular level death hax. And kenichi got hit in 1 spot yet his whole body started dying.

8. Yet none of them are reading the hearts, emotions, feelings, arrhythmia, old wounds etc.

11. None of those are predicting all possible moves.

12. How they happen doesn't really matter when they do happen. It just means the series is vague with explaining how it happens outside of reducing strength to increase speed

2. I see what you mean, while that's true, not only was that 13yo Baki (and we're talking about Yujiro), Xiao Lee also doesn't need to know the attacks are coming in order to work

3. It's more like a stance, but i get your point. Anyways, has Siegfried ever reflected attacks from people thousands of times stronger than him?

4. Read 3

5. Xiao Lee also is attack reflection, ki based tho, similarly to Aiki

6. Oh no, not celullar level. And even then, it's flimsy. Limited death manip should be alright tho.

I see.

8. I mean, isn't analytical prediction exactly that? Analyzing the characteristics of your current opponent, such as the one you mentioned on top of some other stuff, and then knowing what someone like that would do via skill? And Baki characters who Yujiro upscales from (some more than others) can do that with ease against other people on that skill level.

11. It's not predicting every move. You can't predict all of the possible moves because only one of them will truly happen. The fighters in that scan are analyzing all the possible moves the other can do and then choose the one they think is the most likely to happen, thus "predicting" it.

12. I mean, yeah sure it's probably something that requires a decent amount of skill, but there's no confirmation. On the other hand, Doppos' sangan is explictly said to be an ancient technique that not only is he the only user of in the verse (aside from Yujiro obviously) but also is said to need perfect control over the eyes' sinew, so it's better than something essentially featless when it comes to skill.

 

[KGiffoni]

This is how above Yujiro is to people who curbstomp people who curbstomp 13yo Baki who curbstomps Tokyo Dome Underground Arena fighters who curbstomp Rickson Gracie who sees professional top fighters as nothing more than "bonitas" (fancy women) and has a 700-0 winstreak in professional fighting.

There are probably other scaling chains but i think this is the deepest one.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Baki

Saying "x >>>>>Y" is useless tbh. Because let's take some random feat like. Hearing really well for example. The feat is hearing someone 1km away. If X's hearing >>>>>>>>>>>>>Y's hearing. All we can say is "he is better". It's not like we can assume what he can do with "better hearing". And Yujiro is mostly above everyone due to knowing literally everything. Against most top tiers he doesn't really win because he can outperform their moves.

Tl;Dr how long the scaling chain is, is pretty useless, but feel free to ask about Hayato.

 

[BakiHanma18]

@Baki
Saying "x >>>>>Y" is useless tbh. Because let's take some random feat like. Hearing really well for example. The feat is hearing someone 1km away. If X's hearing >>>>>>>>>>>>>Y's hearing. All we can say is "he is better". It's not like we can assume what he can do with "better hearing". And Yujiro is mostly above everyone due to knowing literally everything. Against most top tiers he doesn't really win because he can outperform their moves.

Tl;Dr how long the scaling chain is, is pretty useless, but feel free to ask about Hayato.

To be fair, he wins against literally nobody with skill, he mainly uses brute strength and speed, only shown to have immense skill in their application, but my point was that not only does he supersede each of these people in total skill, but he exceeds their skill in their own specialty. He's a better MMA fighter than Atlas, a better boxer than Ali and Fraiser, and a better master of Kempo than Retsu even at skill Kempo peak, Prime Dorian, and Ryo.

I have a lot of questions, so I'll be drawing them up soon, just to get a good idea of the skill of the people he scales above

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@KG

2. Well Yujiro's stuck to that feat, for lacking better feats on his own so...

3. No, because usually the only people "stronger" are at least 2 classes above yours so. If he fights someone stronger it'll usually be against a master class who'll be massively more skilled too. There's nothing along the lines of "fighting someone thousands of times stronger in Kenichi. But there are a ton of fighting someone significantly stronger.

4. Well It's not just that. Applications matter too. Said reflection works against grabs, multiple opponents etc etc. Just because it can reflect stronger attacks doesn't make it better by default.

5. Huh? When? Since when is relaxation ki based?

6. Stopping the flow of ki kills on a cellular level.

8. No, analytical prediction can happen for various reasons. You don't assume any form of info analysis unless specifically stated. So kenichi greatly takes this.

11. It's taking measures against every possible move. But that's for Dou types. Sei types like kenichi can predict by knowing the opponent's hearts and feelings, thinking like his opponents. Can read the movements of an opponent for as long as he maintains eye contact or is touching the opponent. Or even the small vibrations of his body. etc

12. I mean it's a better Sangan in every way, what's there to argue? And if it's body control you want then this might be interesting.

Can create an axis in the middle of his body which allows his left and right side to act separately to the point of being even capable of saying 2 sentences at the same time . And even controling the direction of his sound so that no one else but his target can hear it.

 

[BakiHanma18]

So I guess to kind of cut up my questions into more digestable bites, my first question would be what class would someone like Ali be in in the Kenichiverse? Best boxer (better than someone who can emulate smoke) and created a martial art comparable to 4,000 year old Chinese Kempo and vastly better than normal boxing?

 

[KGiffoni]

I'll awnser tomorrow because i'm lazy as all hell

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So I guess to kind of cut up my questions into more digestable bites, my first question would be what class would someone like Ali be in in the Kenichiverse? Best boxer (better than someone who can emulate smoke) and created a martial art comparable to 4,000 year old Chinese Kempo and vastly better than normal boxing?

With feats like that i'd have trouble classifying him as anything more than Takeda Itsuki (High Class Disciple, or as i like to call them True Disciple, cus anything lower than those is pretty much an insult to skill, as they're pretty much complete fodder for anything past chapter 100 and are most of the time featless)

 

[BakiHanma18]

Okay, that's better than I thought! So to clarify, Itsuki could, in theory, defeat 700 people comparable to himself without losing (1 at a time and with breaks in between), and is more skilled than someone who could, again in theory (since these are very specific instance of what skill can do), emulate smoke? If so, we could be making progress here!

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Emulate smoke is skill? Wot?

As for 700 people, as long as we're not treating stamina as a problem, then everyone would be more than capable of it. Hell, even Middle class would be actually capable of doing it.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Emulate smoke is skill? Wot?
As for 700 people, as long as we're not treating stamina as a problem, then everyone would be more than capable of it. Hell, even Middle class would be actually capable of doing it.

Yeah, Smokin Joe's movements are so fast and fluid, he kinda has the sense manip like the high tiers (but to a much lesser extent). Would you like me to link a scene as to better show what I mean?

Okay, that's about what I expected. It's a decent feat, but fodder to people like Hayato and Yujiro, who are both at least capable of doing that all at once

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah a scan would be better or a link to a chapter. Whichever is easier to provide.

Actually even middle class disciples can be the top of a capoiera team and fight with more proficiency than 3 people at once. If we count in old Freya (start of the series), then Middle Class is part of Ragnarok's big 3. A group of 3 members which whole and entire alliance (thousands of people) down with fear alone.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Yeah a scan would be better or a link to a chapter. Whichever is easier to provide.
Actually even middle class disciples can be the top of a capoiera team and fight with more proficiency than 3 people at once. If we count in old Freya (start of the series), then Middle Class is part of Ragnarok's big 3. A group of 3 members which whole and entire alliance (thousands of people) down with fear alone.

https://youtu.be/tYHyKuL2uX0 So 4:00-5:45 is where they explain it, and how it's not talent, but something he had to work to over the course of many wins and losses, and 9:45 is where you can actually see what Ali was talking about in action

https://youtu.be/eMiyD1aZCpY this is the rest of the fight, but nothing notable really happens. Retsu beats him by abusing a pressure point and he apparently talks with his dead father while knocked out