Skill Debate: Yujiro vs Hayato

[BakiHanma18]

All true, but considering he was able to use Aiki in a fight at all, he was able to do something nobody else has ever been able to do. Even Shibukawa had to train for years and master Aiki, Jack has no formal training in any martial art and was still able to replicate Aiki in combat

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok, but he did very very basic stuff. It's not like he replicated Aiki, and understanding fighting styles mid fight and countering them is something mid class Kenichi could do (Against Seigfried who was reflecting his attacks).

 

[BakiHanma18]

Ok, but he did very very basic stuff. It's not like he replicated Aiki, and understanding fighting styles mid fight and countering them is something mid class Kenichi could do (Against Seigfried who was reflecting his attacks).

Right, only basic stuff. That's actually a pretty similar example, so I suppose we're still in that area

Ive got the next guy we can figure out: Hector Doyle. I'll split his feats up to be addressed individually as there are a few more than the normal guys up til now


He is a trained assassin with skill above the likes of Sikorsky and Jack, who scale to the mid-high tiers in skill for the Maximum Tournament.

His proficiency in weapons (though Yujiro doesn't use weapons, it's painfully clear that his martial arts skills are vastly above anything Doyle could do with his weapons) allows Doyle to defeat high tiers from the Maximum Tournament as well as either temporarily defeat or evenly clash and lose to main cast members

Was able to survive an ambush from fellow convict Yanagi despite being half blind and not knowing about Yanagi's poison, as well as use his new found proficiency in Karate (particularly the move Seiken) and his tricks to escape Yanagi's ambush and swim to a cave to rest while 100% blind.

Was able to have a comparable (but definitely worse than) Seiken to karate genius Katsumi Orochi after only practicing for minutes, possibly hours.

After being imprisoned by Oliva, Doyle's blindness forced him to train and hone his hearing to insane levels

After realizing that he could train his senses better if he had fewer of them, Doyle deafened himself, training his sense of feeling to the point that he can now feel the vibration that make sound as well as feel extremely small occurrences around him (he could "hear" the wings of bats flapping in his cell, as well as feel the wind their wings were generating)

Where does Doyle end up? Still Mid Disciple?

 

[KGiffoni]

Seiken is pretty much a punch shot from the waist, being good at it is no big deal

 

[BakiHanma18]

Seiken is pretty much a punch shot from the waist, being good at it is no big deal

Yeah, the move itself is no biggie, the feat part comes in with it being decently comparable to Katsumi's, Katsumi basically being the Jesus of karate

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok so Doyle:

None of those were anything impressive really.

His weapons do not scale to Yujiro either way, so saying "yujiro's martial arts are better than his weapon mastery" is flawed for reasons you can understand (you can't compare the 2).

His Seiken as KG said, is nothing impressive. And him performing a good Seiken doesn't really mean much as he just performed a single move from a style. Example it may take years to be master Breakdancing, but it doesn't take years to learn a single basic move.

Escaping with his life is....eh. I can't attribute him to High Disciple class, because in terms of hearing Lugh dwarfs him FAR too much.

The rest about feeling (and even hearing), both are things Yujiro wouldn't scale to. Yujiro may be a better fighter, but it doesn't mean his hearing or feeling is better.

Im still having trouble giving him any more than Mid Class Disciple, but i guess i may give him a borderline high class disciple. Because it's unclear what kinds of disciples fall under Mid and High (it's basically just headcanon from my and the kenichi wiki's part, just because disciples start from chapter 1 and go to chapter 582, so they grow quite a ******* bit.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Ah, damn. Since Yujiro doesn't scale to him for most of his stuff that actually gives him his rating, I'd say toss the Doyle feats. I'll get the next guy's feats ready

 

[BakiHanma18]

Next Baki boi: Hanayama. His fighting skill is actually kinda shit, but he's got some techniques that are kinda impressive as I understand it (one may actually not be that impressive, the other is impossible irl). So, first technique he created is Destructive Force, which, by multiplying his speed, weight, and grip strength, he somehow transforms his grip strength into striking strength power. Dunno if that's that impressive, but seeing as he was able to punch someone using lifting strength, it at least seems impressive. His other impressive technique, Vice Grip, allows him to grab his opponent's body parts (such as arms, or legs), and then hold it so tight that it explodes due to the blood restriction, making that body part useless. This is apparently different from just having good grip strength, as 1) this is impossible to replicate irl even with a higher grip strength that Hanayama, and 2) Oliva does something similar in season 2 of Baki while on a mission, but just crushes the enemy's hand as one would expect: bones crushed, joints broken, etc.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

You kind of answered your own point there "his fighting skill is actually kinda shit". Most of his stuff is just pure raw strength. And those 2 techniques, they were never explained to be skill iirc. So it's just Baki being Baki.

 

[BakiHanma18]

You kind of answered your own point there "his fighting skill is actually kinda shit". Most of his stuff is just pure raw strength. And those 2 techniques, they were never explained to be skill iirc. So it's just Baki being Baki.

Right-O, Hanayama gets trashed. On to Spec, the "God Hands of Kung Fu" (or something like that). Not only does his nickname alone denote something rivaling Kaioh status and/or skill rivalling high tier karatekas like Suedo and Katou, possibly even Katsumi, but (something more concrete) his display with Apnea Rush. In a word, Apnea Rush is just a skill that allows Spec to be able to control his breathing algorithms, allowing him to attack at top speed without any breaks. While developing this technique to control his breathing his impressive considering what can be done in that span of time, the real impressive part comes in with what he can do in those 5 minutes. He's able to throw over a hundred punches in under 5 seconds, and can still maintain his pattern for 5 minutes straight. He's apparently so good at throwing out these barrages that not only is a counterattack impossible, but he can melt both human bone and metal

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Something about the scaling you're making that i love is "X scales to Y, but Y is better and we'll get to their feats later". I mean just ugh, make up your mind, are you gonna go from bottom to top or are you gonna downscale, cus for example you haven't brought up feats for Kaiohs or Katsumi so how is the scaling supposed to make sense? xD

Apnea Rush is mostly just speed and raw strenght (on the x punches per minute and can melt metal). The breathing control is part skill, but im pretty sure every high tier athlete does that when making their best runs, controling their breathing to make more actions than normal. Or what Eminem does to sing that fast while still being able to breathe.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Something about the scaling you're making that i love is "X scales to Y, but Y is better and we'll get to their feats later". I mean just ugh, make up your mind, are you gonna go from bottom to top or are you gonna downscale, cus for example you haven't brought up feats for Kaiohs or Katsumi so how is the scaling supposed to make sense? xD
Apnea Rush is mostly just speed and raw strenght (on the x punches per minute and can melt metal). The breathing control is part skill, but im pretty sure every high tier athlete does that when making their best runs, controling their breathing to make more actions than normal. Or what Eminem does to sing that fast while still being able to breathe.

I brought up Kaioh candidates earlier *single tear* candidates being massively outskilled by even the most basic of Kaioh

Yes, they can all do it, but not to the extent of Spec to be able to do that much stuff that fast and not take a breath (except maybe Em, that man is a monster.)

 

[BakiHanma18]

The first Kaiohs were able to make the fighting style "Pankeration" go extinct

Also, just to become a Kaioh candidate, one must punch and kick a boulder into a perfect sphere and extinguish the flame of a candle with the wind from your punches from several feet away. Also, as you can see, Retsu, one of Ryo's students, was able to carve "a magnificent boulder".

One of Ryo's students, Dorian, the first man from the west to become a Kaioh, was able to complete the boulder challenge, except instead of carving a boulder, he carved a tunnel through a mountain in 1 night

Another requirement to qualify as a Kaioh is extreme control over the transfer of kinetic energy as well as muscle control (and another look at Dorian's work as well)

These are Kaioh candidates trying to be picked to become Kaioh (2 of them, Retsu and Dorian, actually did become Kaiohs due in part to them already completely outclassing the other candidates)

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I see, well everyone and their grandmothers can send shockwaves in Kenichi so it is nothing too out of the ordinary.

As for Spec, you failed to dethrone Em bruh it is still within the realm of normally possible, it is nothing too crazy. So still High Class Disciple. Btw High Class is a huge tier you start getting into Seikuken, Ryusui Seikuken, Death Hax, flow reading etc etc.

 

[KGiffoni]

I can't argue anymore thanks to the events mentioned at the last post i made on my message wall.

Baki18, feel free to continue the arguing i was having with Earl

 

[BakiHanma18]

I see, well everyone and their grandmothers can send shockwaves in Kenichi so it is nothing too out of the ordinary.
As for Spec, you failed to dethrone Em bruh it is still within the realm of normally possible, it is nothing too crazy. So still High Class Disciple. Btw High Class is a huge tier you start getting into Seikuken, Ryusui Seikuken, Death Hax, flow reading etc etc.

On the one hand, I'm happy I've come this far. On the other hand, there's a long journey ahead...

Right, on to the next B O I. Next up, we have a character with actual skill credentials, a Mr Dorian Kaioh.

First, to get the established stuff out of the way, he is skilled enough to causally do the shockwave feat though in this tier of Kenichi, that's kinda fodder I suppose as well as he is able to casually carve a hole through a mountain with nothing but his hands and feet in one night (I say casually as he was able to do this as a Kaioh candidate. Not only did he become a Kaioh, he became a higher end Kaioh, at least above average)

Next is a stealth feat. He escaped an Alcatraz-like island prison and swim to Japan all before anyone even noticed he was gone. https://imgur.com/a/v1RKkMd (Yujiro has Stealth Mastery as well and should upscale, supported by his actual feat)

He was able to completely outclass a NGB Katsumi who is comparable in skill to a NGB Retsu who is a top 5 Kaioh, ranking behind Kaku and somewhat tying with Han and Ryo, all of whom scale above normal Kaiohs who in turn scale massively above candidates who we discussed earlier https://imgur.com/a/YdlFWab https://imgur.com/a/HpglJ9F https://imgur.com/a/ckP5VCq

He is almost able to gain a sizeable advantage on Retsu with just his beard hair https://imgur.com/a/nTOqB9S and proceeds to become a flamethrower with nothing but a bottle of alcohol and a lighter https://imgur.com/a/a6MBnDf

He was able to slip Doppo's defense, who scales massively above Katsumi and sizably above Retsu in skill, out doing every Kaioh alive save for Kaku https://imgur.com/a/pShM2Tg

Can dress a wound on the fly (could be useful given a moment of reprieve, with Yujiro knowledge of fighting and anatomy, he should massively upscale) https://imgur.com/a/dzTjjsx

Is good at using situational weaponry https://imgur.com/a/URrAmLH (Yujiro likely doesn't scale tho)

Knows a technique to prevent from being blinded by blood flicked directly into his eye https://imgur.com/a/a1NEAHE

Is able to flick a shard of glass into the eye of Katou, a Karate fighter that scales below (but not significantly) Katsumi, but also uses underhanded tricks https://imgur.com/a/HPS64CW

Dominate's Katou https://imgur.com/a/Qp4nXd8

He can sing beautifully https://imgur.com/a/mRiPzP3

Another stealth feat (though Yujiro doesn't scale to this one), good at disguising himself https://imgur.com/a/mzaHW5T

Stopped his fall from a considerable height with nothing but a wire (same wire used to severe Doppo's hand, yet he is unscathed as well) https://imgur.com/a/xRVXDPE

Even after eating shit from Doppo, he's instantly ready to counterattack https://imgur.com/a/N3jxoyx

Is able to use his teeth as projectiles after Doppo decides to become a dentist https://imgur.com/a/jd9wceX (Yujiro possibly scales, at least to precision aspect)

Has some kind of technique that hypnotizes people https://imgur.com/a/3ZE4Hz5 https://imgur.com/a/JBqFeqY https://imgur.com/a/xXXM7nx https://imgur.com/a/3uSJV34 (Yujiro likely doesn't scale, as it isn't outlined as a martial arts technique specifically, though this hypnosis is important to remember for when we get to Doppo)

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I'll reply when I'm back from school.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Anyway onto our Dorian baby here:

Carving a hole is an AP feat.

Stealth ugh. I doubt anything in Baki is beating this: Can slip into a massive crowd of people while simultaneously keeping track of everyone's blind spot and hiding his existence in such spots passing by completely unnoticed. While this here is performed and explained by Hayato himself, Miu is capable of doing it too (about High Class Disciple level), and Kenichi was capable of doing it too (it was never shown, but that was training for a certain leg technique, which he learns, so it's fair to say he completed that training).

Scaling above people is scaling, not a feat, if their feats were outdone/discussed it doesn't mean much.

That's really not skill. That alcohol part is what we did when we were in middle school (either that or with deodorant + lighter).

More scaling, will discuss everyone's feats rather than scaling.

That dressing a wound on the fly while no one in Disciple class is capable of any kind of healing, i will just post this, because no one in Baki can outdo the healing in Kenichi. Ki Holding even allows him to heal people. (Basic stuff). Brought Apachai back from the dead using a killing knife and alcohol. (From a Supermaster class, but barely matters considering how stupid this shit is xD).

Yujiro doesn't scale, should i really argue this then? Besides, not even anything impressive, there are weapon users even in mid class disciple.

Throwing glass into someone's eyes? Not exactly impressive.

Scaling.

Doesn't scale.

That's more AP on being able to hold his own weight with 1 hand.

Endurance, if i show you the endurance feats of Kenichi's verse you'll be amazed.

Spitting shit out, is not impressive skill.

Ok i guess i'll keep this in mind.

 

[BakiHanma18]

It's not an AP feat (or at least that's not how it's portrayed) in this instance. The skill in this instance comes from the fact that 1) it was an almost perfectly circular tunnel, 2) the tunnel runs through a mountain yet the tunnel is carved in a manner that it's completely supported throughout the tunnel with no support beams or tools, and 3) he didn't just punch and kick as hard as he could (that might've caused a collapse like discussed in point 2), he chipped away at the mountain piece by piece in the same fashion that other Kaiohs carve their boulders to be perfect spheres. This required slow, methodical chipping away with punches and kicks as not to collapse the tunnel, as to make it an almost perfect circlular tunnel, and yet he was able to do it all in 1 night. In hindsight, it is an AP feat, but not nearly as impressive as the skill feat aspect. Even Hanayama or Baki could've carved that tunnel by season 1 or 2 with AP, but it wouldn't have been functional, nearly as neat, and definitely not like a Kaioh

Baki can, but he uses Instinctive Reaction, so he does need a technique to do it

I'm just scaling Dorian up from NGB Katsumi. I plan to touch on how Yujiro scales to Katsumi at his peak later, and what I meant by that was that Yujiro would also be capable of doing to Katsumi what Dorian did

The precision of the beard hair almost catching Retsu's eye is a skillful endeavor. I was iffy about the fire tho (bruh what kind of school...)

True, I will address Doppo later

You right, Bakiverse only really has one super-healer point taken

The skill to actually land 1 shard of glass in someone's eye, also considering that someone has the reactions of a martial artist comparable to or better than masters is quite impressive imo

That one is clearly obvious: Katou doesn't really have that many notable feats, but he's a Karate fighter of world class level skill (scales considerably above the likes of Yuri, Morio, etc), and Dorian plays him like a fiddle. Yujiro scales massively above this feat

He also didn't bifurcate himself with a wire that casually sliced Doppo's hand off with a tug. Their durabilities are comparable, yet Dorian wasn't sliced in half with a hell of a lot more force moving against the wire

Eating the punch isn't the feat, the feat was the fact that he was visibly rocked by the hit, but was easily able to get into a position to counterattack

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Mostly AP, it's just trimming it down, it is an AP/Durability feat in verse, remember how people's hands were bleeding when trying to do those? As for the mountain not collapsing, there exist tunels irl the mountain doesn't collapse.

Rly? Im interested, scan.

Will argue their feats as they come then. Im just saying, scaling is useless. We're debating just feats here.

Is it really though? It's just a version of the thing I did in middle school (inb4 middle school me becomes the most skilled person) where we would empty our pens and shoot paperballs by blowing on them to hit our friends. He's doing the same thing, with his fingers instead. It's nothing too insane. Besides, Yujiro doesn't have a beard. As for the school, come on did you not do that before, while maybe not on school grounds but in the neighbourhood with the doges.

I mean it's not like he managed to react to those shards of glasses, so skill had little to do with it.

Those aren't quantifiable feats as i said, best stick to the feats.

Yeah, so the explanation is skill? Also didn't he hold on to the plastic part instead of the wire?

>Counter attack

>In High Class Disciple Siegfried Exists

>A dude who's insane at countering.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Mostly AP, it's just trimming it down, it is an AP/Durability feat in verse, remember how people's hands were bleeding when trying to do those? As for the mountain not collapsing, there exist tunels irl the mountain doesn't collapse.
Rly? Im interested, scan.

Will argue their feats as they come then. Im just saying, scaling is useless. We're debating just feats here.

Is it really though? It's just a version of the thing I did in middle school (inb4 middle school me becomes the most skilled person) where we would empty our pens and shoot paperballs by blowing on them to hit our friends. He's doing the same thing, with his fingers instead. It's nothing too insane. Besides, Yujiro doesn't have a beard. As for the school, come on did you not do that before, while maybe not on school grounds but in the neighbourhood with the doges.

I mean it's not like he managed to react to those shards of glasses, so skill had little to do with it.

Those aren't quantifiable feats as i said, best stick to the feats.

Yeah, so the explanation is skill? Also didn't he hold on to the plastic part instead of the wire?

>Counter attack

>In High Class Disciple Siegfried Exists

>A dude who's insane at countering.

Right, but those irl tunnels were carved over a considerable amount of time with tools and are supported by beams. Dorian's tunnel supports itself due to how he carved it

This chapter to Shibukawa https://mangaowl.com/reader/2418/739674 and this one to the crowd https://mangaowl.com/reader/2418/684190

But paper balls and spit balls have a density that is conducive to something like that, hair isn't, which I believe is the impressive part Yujiro could use one of his long-ass Super Saiyan hairs , and nah, I never did anything cool as a kid hate to see it

Even so, to hit a target as small as an eye with an itty bitty shard while getting rushed is worth something, no?

Not quantifiable how? Maybe Katou has a feat that would make it more clear how impressive Dorian's feat is

I'd think so, as it's consistently portrayed as being able to dice main cast level fighters with ease. The only thing I can think of is skill. Plastic part? I wasn't aware of any plastic part, it was my understanding the the whole wire was metal, even the lighter thing it comes out of.

wait no my body isn't ready for Sieg yet nah the counter itself never happened, but as you can see, dispite the jarring hit, he was immediately back in a position where he could. My shit gets rocked like that? I'm not thinking about anything but getting away. Dorian? Already on the defensive and planning his next step as he's getting yeeted.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yes, he just carved it in a circular shape it supports itself. It's just showing he knows basic physics.

He's not slipping into blind spots, people can still see parts of his body that aren't moving. It seems like just speed tbh.

That's not skill though. Hair by nature can't even stick to the eye like that. It's just baki being baki. You don't blow on a piece of hair then it suddenly becomes strong enough to pierce skin.

Eh..... It's not like he threw them "ONLY" at the eyes, he threw many shards.

I meant on "scaling itself isn't quantifiable". So since we're going from weakest to best, it's best to stick to just the feats of each rather than saying "scales above X" cus it doesn't really provide any new feat or anything i can say back to it.

It's metal? Well the lighter thingy where the wire comes out is still "not sharp" (kinda weird for it not to be plastic), so it wouldn't cut.

I mean Siegfried is ready to counter attack when he's caught by surprise, so like...no matter what the argument is if it involves "counter" Sieg outdoes it. xD

 

[BakiHanma18]

Yes, he just carved it in a circular shape it supports itself. It's just showing he knows basic physics.
He's not slipping into blind spots, people can still see parts of his body that aren't moving. It seems like just speed tbh.

That's not skill though. Hair by nature can't even stick to the eye like that. It's just baki being baki. You don't blow on a piece of hair then it suddenly becomes strong enough to pierce skin.

Eh..... It's not like he threw them "ONLY" at the eyes, he threw many shards.

I meant on "scaling itself isn't quantifiable". So since we're going from weakest to best, it's best to stick to just the feats of each rather than saying "scales above X" cus it doesn't really provide any new feat or anything i can say back to it.

It's metal? Well the lighter thingy where the wire comes out is still "not sharp" (kinda weird for it not to be plastic), so it wouldn't cut.

I mean Siegfried is ready to counter attack when he's caught by surprise, so like...no matter what the argument is if it involves "counter" Sieg outdoes it. xD

I dunno, I feel like if it were that simple, we wouldn't need support beams, even less so with using tools built for cave carving as opposed to bare hands and feet

Hes using IR to dodge their line of sight

It's the amount of force he's applying to it with the flick is what makes it slice through drag force, but there's still an element of precision to not only have it sail through the air in the precise direction you sent it, but to have it almost prick it's target pinpoint

Fair point

See, I don't know how to present this, because the link I posted is technically a feat, it's just a feat showing how he scales above Katou

Yeah, it's some kinda micron something or other steel wire. The lighter thing is what he has in his hand, the wire (which if he didn't somehow cushion the impact of his fall or slow his landing would half sliced him in half) is what's across his chest in the scan I linked

How would you scale that linked example to Sieg? Casually, trying but not hard, trying hard, etc?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

We use beams to make the piercing easier, not to support the whole thing. We don't do it by hand cus we do not do anything by hand these days, it takes ages (also there are tunels that aren't carved with beams.

IR? Also that doesn't seem to be the case considering he's still visible, in the parts he doesn't move.

No, try your best, hair isn't piercing skin like that. It's too soft.

Hmm, if i say "i am stronger than my friend", is there anything you can say back to it? It's not like you can disprove my "feat" of being stronger, but there is nothing to argue back at it for "X is even stronger". However if you say "i can throw a rock 20m away" i can say back "i can throw it 30m". So that's what i mean by "scaling is not feat", it's just where they sit within the canon. That's why i would like you to avoid these scalings and just stick to the feats of each character.

Wasn't that just the wire falling to the ground rather than from his chest? Also even then it's just PIS at most, skill doesn't make you not get sliced.

Hmm, i guess it would be start of the series Sieg being very casual. Otherwise mid series Sieg literally counterattacks when he gets hit from behind while he's writing songs. See Sieg's feats for yourself.

 

[BakiHanma18]

We use beams to make the piercing easier, not to support the whole thing. We don't do it by hand cus we do not do anything by hand these days, it takes ages (also there are tunels that aren't carved with beams.
IR? Also that doesn't seem to be the case considering he's still visible, in the parts he doesn't move.

No, try your best, hair isn't piercing skin like that. It's too soft.

Hmm, if i say "i am stronger than my friend", is there anything you can say back to it? It's not like you can disprove my "feat" of being stronger, but there is nothing to argue back at it for "X is even stronger". However if you say "i can throw a rock 20m away" i can say back "i can throw it 30m". So that's what i mean by "scaling is not feat", it's just where they sit within the canon. That's why i would like you to avoid these scalings and just stick to the feats of each character.

Wasn't that just the wire falling to the ground rather than from his chest? Also even then it's just PIS at most, skill doesn't make you not get sliced.

Hmm, i guess it would be start of the series Sieg being very casual. Otherwise mid series Sieg literally counterattacks when he gets hit from behind while he's writing songs. See Sieg's feats for yourself.

Wait what? I was referring to support beam, which are placed throughout most tunnels to support the weight of the roof of the tunnel to prevent collapse. Dorian's tunnel was so perfectly carved, it didn't need support beams

Hes not though, not only does his body (save for his feet) completely disappeared from Shibukawa's view and the view of the on-lookers, but he even says that he's dodging people's gaze and that his body is moving on its own

Okay, I might slip up because I'm just slappin down feats I've gathered, but just ignore the scaling feats

He has the wire looped around that lamppost and his body is caught in the loop, but moot point if it's PIS

I'd say Sieg's feat is slightly better, as he basically does the same thing, except he's able to follow through with the counter as he's recovering instead of just getting into position to counter

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok but it is no different from this tunnel.

Body moving on his own is just instinct. As for the rest, disappearing from someone's view can be acomplished with speed too.

Depends on "which" feat. Cus he has a ton of feats. His most basic ones are not getting hurt at all while countering back with the same force.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Ok but it is no different from this tunnel.
Body moving on his own is just instinct. As for the rest, disappearing from someone's view can be acomplished with speed too.

Depends on "which" feat. Cus he has a ton of feats. His most basic ones are not getting hurt at all while countering back with the same force.

Right, and Dorian did something like that with his bare hands

Right, but it's specifically stated that he was reacting to "punches, kicks, sword slashes, and even someone's gaze" instinctively. He's literally using IR to dodge their sight

Specifically the one where he counter attacks a surprise attack

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Which is just carving it, trimming the stone bit by bit, nothing skill based.

Still doesn't seem like it's blind spots, but we get there when we get there i guess.

That's massively above lol. He's writing his songs, a dude kicks him full power, and he not only takes no damage but also hits back.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Which is just carving it, trimming the stone bit by bit, nothing skill based.
Still doesn't seem like it's blind spots, but we get there when we get there i guess.

That's massively above lol. He's writing his songs, a dude kicks him full power, and he not only takes no damage but also hits back.

I don't know, we can agree to disagree, but since we don't see eye to eye on this point, it will be omitted from the discussion

True, I'm not sure if I have it as a skill feat, but Baki is considerably later on

Wouldnt not taking damage just be durability? As far as skill, Sieg successfully counter attacked a surprise attack, Dorian was instantly ready to counter attack a hit he was expecting. Sieg's is clearly better, but I wouldn't say massively

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok i guess.

Ok.

Nah, cus he did it by countering rather than by tanking the attack. He basically does a form of Xiao Lee, so that he won't get hurt by the attack. As for massively above, yes, it is, because that is mid series Sieg who's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BoS Sieg, who could counter instantly upon getting hit, which is still above anything Dorian did as Dorian didn't even counter, he was just back in stance after a hit. Which is more endurance than skill, as no matter how much skill, if you just black out from the punch, it's over Unless your name is Siegfried

 

[BakiHanma18]

Ok i guess.
Ok.

Nah, cus he did it by countering rather than by tanking the attack. He basically does a form of Xiao Lee, so that he won't get hurt by the attack. As for massively above, yes, it is, because that is mid series Sieg who's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BoS Sieg, who could counter instantly upon getting hit, which is still above anything Dorian did as Dorian didn't even counter, he was just back in stance after a hit. Which is more endurance than skill, as no matter how much skill, if you just black out from the punch, it's over Unless your name is Siegfried

The punch didn't knock him out and he clearly doesn't tank it, as he even looks clobbered, but he had already taken up a counterattack stance, meaning he was already preparing a counterattack as he was getting hit, which is just shy of what BoS Sieg can do apparently. Save for the Xaio-Lee aspect, the feat is the same, regardless of how Sieg's overall combat skill scales to when he was first able to do it. Think of it like this: if I could punch someone with my knuckles angled so that my punches would cut them, then I become a martial arts master and do it, the feat is still the same, I just became more skilled overall.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

No, there's no reason to assume "he was ready to counter beforehand". He was just capable to take a stance after getting punched. He clearly doesn't "tank" it, he "endures" it. A punch can hurt me, but i can still endure it. He never even countered back, comparing it to Siegfried is just not happening sorry. Siegfried completely outclasses, even Sieg's worst feat is light years ahead of "taking a stance after getting hit".

As for Siegfried, countering is literally his number 1 move. He trained in Tidat for some time (i think a week or so, can't remember exactly), and he practiced only his counter. And countering a move you know is coming and countering a move of an attack you don't even know is coming are 2 things COMPLETELY far appart. Cus he does it by reading his opponent's rythym, and following the rythym of an attack that you don't even know is coming is pretty insane.

 

[BakiHanma18]

No, there's no reason to assume "he was ready to counter beforehand". He was just capable to take a stance after getting punched. He clearly doesn't "tank" it, he "endures" it. A punch can hurt me, but i can still endure it. He never even countered back, comparing it to Siegfried is just not happening sorry. Siegfried completely outclasses, even Sieg's worst feat is light years ahead of "taking a stance after getting hit".
As for Siegfried, countering is literally his number 1 move. He trained in Tidat for some time (i think a week or so, can't remember exactly), and he practiced only his counter. And countering a move you know is coming and countering a move of an attack you don't even know is coming are 2 things COMPLETELY far appart. Cus he does it by reading his opponent's rythym, and following the rythym of an attack that you don't even know is coming is pretty insane.

To quote Doppo directly, "I just hit you full on and you're already in a position to counter attack." He literally recovers from the hit by entering a stance to counter. While he does not follow through, that's where the differences end: Sieg countered as a reaction to a surprise attack, Dorian prepared a counter to an attack that hit him at least hard enough to close his eyes (also meaning he was in a position to counter despite not seeing if Doppo was going to follow up with something or what that something may be).

 

[Firephoenixearl]

He never managed to counter an attack, he was just ready to do so to the next punch.

From doppo's words "Yu're in a position to counter attack", counterattacking is just attacking back, thing he did not do, so it was literally "you took up a stance after being hit". It is not impressive, hell, average boxers do that all the time, getting punched yet still keeping their stance ready for a counterattack.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Anyway this matters fairly little, once feats that can outdo Sieg come up, i'll argue them. Dorian is still High Class Disciple. Let's move on to the next.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Right on, next boi comin up

Next, a simpler scale: Yanagi

Yanagi has 3 techniques, one of them being possible for Yujiro to replicate, but not likely (Yujiro resists poison, but wouldn't ever use Poison Hand in a fight).

Vacuum Palm- Yanagi creates an air vacuum in the palm of his hand. He primarily uses this technique to knock someone unconscious by forcing them to breathe a dangerously low oxygen level; some other uses include destroying bulletproof glass and concrete walls, and blowing air through an opponent's ear to blow their organs out of the other ear

Benda- Yanagi makes his limbs go fluid-like and then proceeds to "slap" his opponent mercilessly; the slaps are strong enough to rip the opponent's skin off

His real claim to fame is (unfortunately) his scaling from Kunimatsu, his master. Kunimatsu is the master and sensei of the Great Japanese Budo School teachings in assassination and deadly hand techniques. He is well known all across the world and teacher to many famous authority figures but none from Japan. Yanagi skill in the Way of the Void is so great that his master Kunimatsu considers him his most skilled student, despite having many students from all around the world, and calls him a genius.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Can Yujiro use the vacuum palm?

Benda, is really just a slap with fluid motion. I can't find a similar feat, but definitely not something that would put him as impressive in the high class disciples.

So still high class disciple.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Can Yujiro use the vacuum palm?
Benda, is really just a slap with fluid motion. I can't find a similar feat, but definitely not something that would put him as impressive in the high class disciples.

So still high class disciple.

Yes, as he knows all martial arts in the verse. The only moves he wouldn't be confirmed as at least possibly having is any move using weapons (Doyle's kit, Motobe's kit, Gaia's kit, Musashi's kit, etc) or a move that either isn't recognized as a martial art move or is but requires outside resources (Dorian's hypnosis, Yanagi's Poison Hand, etc)

Benda is a move that not only allows for durability negation, but also pain manip. To do it, you have to be able to move your arms at speeds exceeding Mach 2 (the faster, the better) and your arms have to almost perfectly emulate water.

That on top of VP, which not only allows one to control the amount of oxygen one intakes, but it also allows the user to use air pressure to bust through things like jetfighter cockpit glass or concrete walls, as well as blowing into a man's ear and blowing his organs out of the other ear

 

[Firephoenixearl]

VP is not directly martial arts, it's specific training to creating vacuum in your palm.

Yeah as i said, i can't find anything similar, but it doesn't break past High Class disciple.

 

[BakiHanma18]

VP is not directly martial arts, it's specific training to creating vacuum in your palm.
Yeah as i said, i can't find anything similar, but it doesn't break past High Class disciple.

VP is a technique used in the Way of the Void, a martial art style that Yujiro should not only know by virtue of knowing all martial arts, but also due to the fact that we've seen him use another technique in the style, Benda

If you say so, something like dura neg/pain manip seems like it would get higher, especially if nothing even similar has even appeared in Kenichi, but you know more about Kenichi than myself. What about VP?