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Simple Dragon Ball Question

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Goku says that Trunks didn't even know any better on the subject of what Whis was talking about. "No one told him it was wrong".

As far as I remember, there is just another Time Ring everytime another timeline is created. I can't find the exact quote it was explained in, though. If I'm wrong, I still don't see exactly how it's relevant. Is the argument here about Zeno? As I've said, I don't understand why this would even upgrade Zeno at all. Zeno hasn't shown to be able to destroy multiple timelines, and I don't think any statement implies that he can destroy anything more than the Multiverse, which I'm not really convinced that destroying the Multiverse is anything higher than Low 2-C.
 
Trunks didn't know it was against godly law to time travel. Not that he doesn't know about the nature of time travelling, the butterfly effect (which Trunks is explicitly shown knowledgable about during the DBZ) or that somehow Trunks's statement in the manga is now just a lie or completely wrong.

Our profile here outright supports the interpretation of the anime's statement meaning all of existence, the manga we consider as secondary canon which can be used if nothing contradicts it, and has more input from Toriyama explicitly states the interpretation of all of existence. And our profiles used that manga statement to upgrade Xenoverse.
 
I only remember Whis saying that Zeno can erase anything of any size or complexity, be it a person, a planet, a universe, or even all universes. This would be Low 2-C. This is backed up by Zeno visually erasing a timeline. I don't actually remember a statement outside of the manga of Zeno being able to erase all existence.
 
So Whis says Zeno can erase anything of any size or complexity, yet two timelines instead of one is just too big and too complex for him? And no not "all universes" he said "everything all of reality as we know it" in the dub.

Our profile explicitly interprets the "world" statement from the anime to "all of existence" which isn't too far fetched when this is also what the secondary canon, original creator inputted manga interprets as well.
 
It's only assumption to think that "all existence," refers to anything more than the multiverse when even the diagram Whis showed while explaining Zen'o's power did *not* address timelines.

"The word world in Japanese does not translate to the word multiverse in English. Multiverse is only one of the possible interpretations of what they meant by world. However the manga with far greater input from Toriyama than the dub uses the interpretation of all timelines."

It's always used this way in DBS, though.

"Zeno is explicitly stated to be able to destroy anything he wants and able to destroy multiple timelines. The fact that he didn't erase Mai and Trunks when erasing Infinite Zamasu is used as some kind of proof that he can't. That being based on some idea that everything associated with a universe has to be erased alongside the universe. Even though this is shown to not be the case as angels aren't being erased with their respective universes."

He's never stated to be able to cross his power into timelines, and every demonstration thus far of his power has only backed that argument up. The Mai and Trunks thing is ancillary.

"Infinite Zamasu is obviously far stronger than Fusion Zamasu. Beerus was not at all impressed when he felt Infinite Zamasu's ki. And when Shin said Jiren's energy was stronger than Infinite Zamasu's, Whis then said it was like a God of Destruction's. Zamasu only can't be killed cause of his immortality, not cause he's strong."

While it is true that IZ > FZ, Beerus' level of surprise means nothing. He began to sweat when seeing SSJB KKx10 the first time.
 
@Ryukama

Under that logic, he could destroy all possible higher dimensions and voids and other Zen'os as well. I think it's massive NLF to assume he can destroy timelines other than their contents until demonstrated otherwise. Because as stated, he didn't destroy the timeline itself, just its contents.
 
Why would "completely erase all of existence as we know it" during an arc that is all about travelling to different timelines and the gods clearly knowing fully well that timelines exist only be referring to one single timeline istead of, well, all of existence as they know it?

Both the manga and as I have now proven the anime dub you're using do not interpret world the way you do.

Except when Whis again states his power is able to cross into timelines. Anyways to break this down once more

  • Zeno is stated by Whis able to destroy anything he wants and multiple timelines
  • "Mai and Trunks not getting erased when Zeno destroyed one timeline disproves that"
  • How would Zeno not erasing Mai and Trunks when erasing one timeline disprove that he can erase multiple timelines?
  • "Because as Obuni showed everything associated with a universe has to get erased alongside it"
  • Except as the angels showed this isn't the case
The only way for Mai and Trunks not getting erased alongside one timeline to at all somehow disprove the statements that he can erase anything he wants and multiple timelines is based on an idea that has been disproven. So currently nothing disproves Whis's statements.

Beerus was shocked at how much Goku improved and wasn't actually scared of his power. Either way the anime contradicts Vegito vs Beerus in the manga, so that wouldn't be used.

Aeyu said:
Under that logic, he could destroy all possible higher dimensions and voids and other Zen'os as well.
Click to expand...
Higher dimensions haven't proven to be a thing in Dragon Ball unlike alternate timelines. Why can't Zeno destroy World of Void if people like Jiren, UI Goku or Toppo or Jiren can shake, affect or warp it? Just because he can't destroy the other Zenos doesn't mean he can't destroy the whole DB cosmology. Or else Demonbane, Xenoverse characters, Dimentio, etc. etc. who can destroy existence yet have equal or superior beings have to be downgraded.
 
You're missing the point. In every use of the word "World," it's referring to the multiverse, which is supported by Zen'o destroying the multiverse (which is shown), and he did not affect "the present," at all. It's more assumption that one Zen'o could override another's authority than it is that Zen'o simply can't affect multiple timelines, or at least has never been given evidence to support this.

1. The quotes about Zen'o never mention timelines.

2. Because even when deleting *universes,* all matter respective to that universe disappears. Trunks and Mai escaped into the present, which also was unaffected by Zen'o's power. That gives more evidence of a hard limit than to assume otherwise based on statements which may or may not be taken to mean that. Feats > Statements.

The Angels were granted immunity; this is the only reason.
 
Zeno has never erased multiple timelines and nothing suggests he can. If there were infinite timelines and Zeno could erase everything then there wouldn't be any reality by process of elimination, one version of Zeno would have already erased it all.
 
Ryukama said:
There being a Zeno for every timeline does nothing at all to disprove that Zeno can destroy multiple timelines. Or else I guess Demonbane can no longer bust multiple timelines. Or any character who can destroy the entirety of the verse yet has equal/superior characters to them have to be downgraded. Perhaps Xenoverse Goku should be downgraded since there are alternate timeline versions of Goku as well.
Our own profile claims Zeno can destroy all of existence with that anime statement. The manga, which is still secondary canon and has arguably more input from Toriyama than the anime, has a statement (uncontradicted and possibly even supported by the anime) that Zeno can "completely erase all of existence as we know it".

Whis and the gang, as shown in that same arc, are fully knowledgable of the existence of alternate timelines. In an arc that's all about travelling to alternate timelines, someone being stated able to "completely erase all of existence as we know it" is far more likely to be referring to, just that, all of existence as they know it. Which would include all of the alternate timelines that the same arc this statement comes from is centered around. As opposed to just one single timeline.
Click to expand...

Matthew Schroeder

the answer to your comment
 
Also the scan doesn't even say there are infinite universes: It just says that futures can be created through new decisions. This is incredibly huge, assuming it is true, as there's no proof but Trunks' theory, and the Time Rings disagree with this as one is created whenever someone meddles with time making a new timeline...

But it is not infinite. You cannot reach infinity by multiplying finite numbers.
 
Also, Future Zeno went "This world shouldn't exist, it should disappear" at Zamasu. He snapped and unleashed his full power which annihilated the entire future multiverse. If Zeno can destroy everything, he's erase all timelines.

Zeno has never done that. Only one at most and not completely either.
 
1. Nobody ever mentioned anything about infinite timelines.

2. I've already gone over why "There's a Zeno for each timeline" does not at all disprove Zeno can destroy multiple timelines. But we can make a Xenoverse and Demonbane downgrade thread if that's wanted.

3. Again, why would "all of existence as we know it" or "all of reality as we know it" during an arc that is entirely about travelling to alternate timelines and the gods are fully aware of multiple timelines being in existence and real be referring to just one single timeline? We've never treated any other series like this. If there are shown to be multiple timelines and characters can destroy all of existence of all of reality within that verse, we rate them as being able to destroy multiple timelines.

4. And I never said Zeno can literally destroy "anything regardless of complexity or scale" in regards to any verse. However within his own verse, where alternate timelines are a well known, established thing, and are the center of the very same arc this statement came from, alternate timelines can safely be included in that statement. So someone who is entirely knowledgable on alternate timelines at the time of saying Zeno can destroy "anything regardless of complexity or scale" actually meant to say "Zeno can destroy one timeline but two timelines are too big and complex for him"?

5. Zeno was only after one universe/timeline when he destroyed Infinite Zamasu. That's why his powers or his destruction never reached the present.

6. The time rings are a way to know when someone was meddling with time. I don't see anything saying that time rings are created whenever a timeline is made independent of one's meddling. However like I said this is one point I'm rather uncertain of so I'm very open regarding that.
 
Anyways my main point was especially not to argue infinite timelines. However to ask this. Our profiles both explicitly support the fact that Zeno can destroy all of existence. Our profiles also support Trunks's statement about the timelines. So why haven't we put 2 and 2 together and listed Zeno as being able to destroy those timelines? If for some reason we disagree with what our profiles say about Zeno destroying all of reality or Trunks's statement about timelines, then we need to revise the profiles in that way. Not in upgrades. Though either way there seems some revision needs to be done. However so far playing Devil's Advocate there's little compelling reasons to go against what the current profiles claim.
 
2. False equivalence. Those series have feats.

3. Because Zeno's best feat and upper limit to his power is 18 universes, and "the world" refers to the multiverse in DBS

4. Zeno has 0 evidence of destroying alternate timelines, it is a leap in logic that he can do it, specially cause there are Zenos in every timeline and his upper limit is one timeline per Zeno

5. Zeno destroyed the entire future multiverse, the entire future timeline after unleashing his full power. He didn't care about Goku or anyone else. That' his upper limit of strength.

6. By meddling in time you create new timelines.

Zeno can't destroy all of existence as in all timelines. Only one. Should be changed on his profile.
 
Again "one Zeno per timeline" isn't anything that actually disproves Zeno can destroy multiple timelines. If someone is reliably stated able to, or in my examples, shown to destroy multiple timelines then them having alternate timeline versions of themselves means nothing. Blowing up multiple timelines and full acausality are two different abilities. If you want to go the route of you don't trust those statements without feats fine. But one Zeno per timeline in of itself doesn't disprove the statements.

We've never questioned Whis's statements such manners before. And he says Zeno can destroy all of existence/reality as we know it. Suggesting multiple timelines.

Nothing at all indicates that Zeno unleashed his full power when destroying Infinite Zamasu or that it was his upper limit of power.

And as Trunks's statement new timelines are also created independent of a person meddling.

But again if we actually don't agree with these things on our profiles then at least those should be revised. Though odd that people only noticed issues with them when they might potentially do something for Zeno.
 
Sure it does. Why are there timelines at all?

Zeno's top feat is 2-C. The statements of him destroying the world cap at 2-C. We have 0 evidence of him affecting other timelines.
 
Blowing up multiple timelines and being fully acausal throughout all timelines are two different abilities. And fiction has shown many times that people can destroy multiple timelines yet still have alternate timeline versions of themselves. One Zeno per timeline is not an inherit disproof of such statement.

If you want to just use interpret Whis's "world" statement in the anime as one timeline fine. However I think that "all of existence as we know it" in the manga or "Anything regardless of scale or complexity. Everything, all of reality as we know it" in the dub definitely suggest multiple timelines. However the Japanese anime takes precedence, though if the agreed upon interpretation of world is one timeline and not the "all of existence as we know it" interpretation in the manga than that should at least be changed in the profiles.
 
but there is a lower character like infinite zamasu that can affect other time lines, and Why zeno would not he? for the lack of feats?
 
@AllFiction That is a good point. Zeno has statements that suggest he has power that can affect multiple timelines, and characters far inferior to him have power that can affect multiple timelines. Also again there's a Zamasu for each timeline, (albiet unlike all Zenos being equal one Zamasu is obviously far above all the others). But it's yet another example of people having the power to destroy multiple timelines despite there being alternate timeline versions of themselves.

Also before someone says it, yes Infinite Zamasu is incorporeal and Zeno isn't. However when Zeno is stated to have power that suggests he has power than can affect multiple timelines, and someone far less powerful than him has power than can affect multiple timelines, it helps bring credance to that statement. And it shows that characters in Dragon Ball specifically, not just fiction in general, can affect multiple timelines yet still have alternate timeline versions of themselves.
 
Ryukama said:
However the Japanese anime takes precedence, though if the agreed upon interpretation of world is one timeline and not the "all of existence as we know it" interpretation in the manga than that should at least be changed in the profiles.
Click to expand...
They have to be changed, yeah.
 
I guess the headcanon of Infinite Zamasu being vastly superior to everyone in the series continues. I think when there are statements that suggest Zeno's power can affect multiple timelines and people who are obviously far inferior to him have power that can affect multiple timelines that it's reasonable to say he does. However I suppose it's whichever the majority agrees on.
 
"I guess the headcanon of Infinite Zamasu being vastly superior to everyone in the series continues"

Why are you even bringing this up though? I haven't seen stuff in the thread that implies that.
 
Infinite Zamasu at his weakest has power that can affect multiple timelines, and we have our profile saying that Infinite Zamasu as he gets stronger would do so at a significantly higher rate. Having Zeno's power be limited to only one timeline, especially when statements suggest he can affect multiple as well, I disagree with.

I'm sorry but I need to get this off my chest, I personally feel this site hypes Infinite Zamasu too much.

He was a villain that got one shot in the first and only episode he was in. One who Beerus had only slight concern over and whose power Whis thought was merely "tingly". We put him above all the gods and angels for a while (which to be fair there was a while where there was little proof of him scaling to people) but then after we got statement after statement of Jiren being stronger than him there was still a major pushback with many believing Infinite Zamasu to still be infinitely above Grand Priest, and now we're going to have him as orders of magnitude above Zeno.

I may be outnumbered on this, but I don't at all agree with it.
 
The Everlasting said:
"I guess the headcanon of Infinite Zamasu being vastly superior to everyone in the series continues"
Why are you even bringing this up though? I haven't seen stuff in the thread that implies that.
Click to expand...
The suggestion that Infinite Zamasu, peak or otherwise, is powerful enough to affect multiple timelines yet Zeno can't. Or the suggestion that Infinite Zamasu over time would have consumed the entire DB reality.
 
IZ can only affect multiple timelines because of Trunks leaving his time travel version of a carbon footprint. He could only possibly get that strong through a fluke.
 
I don't think he would overtime, he was affecting two timelines. Zeno's best feat is destroying one timeline in one blast, which is better than Zamasu's feat which is over time. I don't speculate more than that for either
 
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